Talk:Cherokee Nation of Mexico

Clean-up
This is going to be a tricky one since there is a historical presence of Cherokees in Mexico (the Mexican government offered land grants to Cherokee families prior to removal), Sequoyah is thought to be buried in Mexico near the Texas border, and there is a group called the "Cherokee Nation of Mexico"; however, the contemporary group has some wild, extremely New Age-y beliefs and this article is clearly self-promotional. The challenge will be to trim down everything to what is factual and verifiable. -03:28, 20 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * See my edit comments about "non-recognized tribes" category which I've removed,since it appears this group has relations with the Mexican government, or a state government anyway, not sure.....and not sure about "Cherokee tribe" as a category since the "normal" meaning for that is a "federally-recognized tribe"and not "Cherokee people"...another problem with FOO people/tribe, among so many. They're ddefinitely not signatory to NAFTA any more than anyone like the haudenosaunee or Gitxsan-Wet'su-we'ten Confederacy aren't, I removed that as bunk.Skookum1 (talk) 09:14, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The Cherokee is not on the list of officially recognized indigenous groups in Mexico. The Mexican Kickapoo are, but no Cherokee group. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:54, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Additionally, despite the name, most of the membership lives in the United States. None of their websites are in Spanish. Category:People of Cherokee descent is for individual people, so I went ahead and created Category:Cherokee heritage groups. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:33, 21 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * That seems to be a useful category.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Mexico is not required to use USA rules for recognizing Indian tribes. e are loved and respected in Mexico. People on the Mexican presidents cabinet are Cherokee descendants... Some of the Cherokee who receive Amparo long ago eventually became wealthy and powerful in Mexico. The US and Mexico fought a war once, long ago, and have mutual treaties of friendship nowadays, yet you insist on holding us to USA rules when we are a Mexican tribe.

We are no more self promotional as The Cherokee Nation of 1975 at Tahlequah, and I used their template to craft our article, and yet was criticized for it.

You have NO clue where our membership resides and from your smarmy tone, you probably don't want to know.

I guess you haven't heard that Mexico is a Sovereign Nation, and Wikipedia is international in scope.

Aniyunwiya (talk) 04:44, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
 * First of all, Mexican Indians are not organized into tribes or nations, there is indeed no entity corresponding to "tribe" that the Mexican government could recognize. The Mexican state,through INALI and CDI recognizes ethnic groups based on language - but such ethnic groups have no rights as a political organization. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:59, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Intent to license content from http://cherokeediscovery.com
The following text will soon arrive from chiefs@cherokeenationofsequoyah.com to permissions-en@wikimedia.org

...saying:

"As holders of the copyrights to http://cherokeediscovery.com, we permit the use of our material under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License (CC-BY-SA) and the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) (unversioned, with no invariant sections, front-cover texts, or back-cover texts).

"The only email listed on our website is chiefs@cherokeenationofsequoyah.com which is shown only at http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/downloads/Tribal_Application.pdf"

Aniyunwiya (talk) 18:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya


 * The fact that they are licensed does not mean that they will be included in the article. Wikipedia is not a place to publish promotion of your organization. Information will only be included if it is supported by reliable, published sources. Selfpublished sources, organizational websites are not reliable sources. 100 years old books are also not reliable sources about currently existing organizations or their legal status. And your claims of being officially recognized are also not reliable sources. I suggest that if you would like to continue to contribute to wikipedia you read and undestand our basic policies about reliable sources, verifiability and conflict of interest.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Self-published sources
Haven't combed the entire article, but the following are not published books:


 * Garrett, Regan "Waterhawk" with Smith, Nathan "Hawk Song", Tsalagi: The Principal People, composition of the writings, research and philosophies of Charles "Kingfisher" Rogers, Chief of the Cherokee Nation of Sequoyah.


 * Rogers, Chief Charles "Kingfisher" and Garrett, Regan "Waterhawk" – Tsalagi (Cha Lan Gee): The Cherokee Nation of Mexico, The history of the Cherokee Nation of Mexico and its friendship with the State of Coahuila Governor, Enrique Martinez y Martinez.

Read WP:SELFPUB for more perspective. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:39, 21 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * I agree. Material only sourced to selfpublished sources should be removed. (which probably amounts to most of the article). First we need to find some reliable sources that even discuss A Cherokee Nation of Mexico - otherwise we should probably AfD the article.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Copyvio
Not sure how to handle this, but in actually examining the texts, much of it is lifted directly from James Mooney verbatim; however, since the text is from the 19th century, it would be in the public domain? Many other paragraphs are directly taken from Albert Woldert's "The Last of the Cherokees in Texas, and the Life and Death of Chief Bowles," which was written earlier but published in June 1923 by the Chronicles of Oklahoma, so presumably they would own the copyright, and since it was published after 1 Jan 1923, it would not be in public domain. Other passages come directly from the "Cherokee Nation of Sequoyah" website, which does proclaim at the bottom "©2012 Cherokee Nation of Sequoyah." -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * Mooney probably is in the public domain, but it shouldn't be copied without citation anyway that is not in line with reasonable scholarly practice. A student would be accused of plagiarism for doing it.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Uyvsdi, With regard to copyvio issues for http://digital.library.okstate.edu/chronicles/v001/v001p179.html, I numerous times referenced Starr's "Early History of The Cherokees" which was published in 1917 and is in the public domain. The June 1923 article of "Chronicles of Oklahoma" was simply quoting his work. Anything prior to 1923 is public domain.

I also referenced King; Texas Historical Association Quarterly, which was published in July 1898 and is in the public domain. The June 1923 article of "Chronicles of Oklahoma" was simply quoting his work.

I also referenced MEMOIRS, by JOHN H. REAGAN, LL. D. which was published in 1906 and is in the public domain. The June 1923 article of "Chronicles of Oklahoma" was simply quoting his work.

I also referenced Winkler; Texas Historical Association Quarterly, October, which was published in 1903 and is in the public domain. The June 1923 article of "Chronicles of Oklahoma" was simply quoting his work.

We will take are of the any other issues regarding our website's copyright as soon as we can figure out how to do it. Many thanks. Aniyunwiya (talk) 07:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya

With regard to http://www.banderacountytxhistoricalcommission.org/www.banderacountytxhistoricalcommission.org/Native_Americans.html

The source I referenced was Written by: Elenora Dugosh Goodley Information from: Texas State Library and Archives Commission, “Indian Relations in Texas”. The Handbook of Texas Online

BUT also from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,

“Battle of Bandera Pass”.

History of Bandera County - 1986

Ethnolinguistic Distribution of Indians in Texas in 1776,

and Texas Beyond History, the University of Texas of Austin, 1976

SO, lets just delete that and I will write something original.

As I recall, I provided links to information she quoted directly from the Handbook of Texas Online, which are documents from the 1830s all in public domain. Aniyunwiya (talk) 07:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya


 * Something original? Have you read WP:NOR yet? I know you said it was on your reading list. Dougweller (talk) 13:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well we do prefer original writing to plagiarism, as long as its not Original Research. I think s/he meant original writing.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * What is the policy of simply cutting-and-pasting other articles? I've not seen it come up before. -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * You can cut and paste wikipedia articles but you should attribute in the edit summary what article it is from. Per copyrihgt you can cut and paste articles in the public domain, but it is still considered plagiarism to do so without attribution. Some articles for example are cut and paste article from the 1911 Catholic encyclopedia, but they contain a note of attribution.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The very premise of this article is false
Mexico does not officially recognize any Cherokee group, neither at the level of state or federal authority. That claim is simply false and even the briefest look at Mexican government sources will confirm this. The only indigenous group recognized in Coahuila is the Kikapu (Kickapoo) - the Black Seminoles are also found in Coahuila but are not officially recognized as an indigenous group. This makes the article in its current state basically a hoax. It might be possible to write an article about the historical Cherokee presence in Mexico, but without tying it directly this contemporary Cherokee heritage group. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. The Texas Cherokees article has similar problems, although not as bad now. I tried to clean up that article and have it stick to historical facts, but it regularly gets co-opted by editors promoting for contemporary non-recognized organizations. Not exactly what I prefer to spend my free time working on. -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * It's also a bit odd that the lead says it is state recognised, ie by a US state. How so? Dougweller (talk) 17:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * At their talkpage they posted a list of Mexican government officials with contact details suggesting that I call them and personally verify that they have been "recognized". I am not sure posting that information is allowed. In any case this user needs a crash course in wikipedia policies badly.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Charles L. Kingfisher Rogers
I've removed his degrees as a possible WP:BLP violation. He may well have them but we have no source, and his website is interesting.. See also which links to his facebook page. Dougweller (talk) 19:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm told on my talk page that Rogers "Graduated Grace University School of Medicine, M.D. degree (Grace University, Nevis registered in the World Health Organization (WHO) directory of accredited medical schools". I see a Grace University on Duke's 'not allowed' list. There is also. suggests that Grace has moved around. A WHO listing does not mean that a university's degrees are internationally recognised. He also evidently went to the "University of Homeopathic Medicine South Africa" - I can't find this, perhaps someone else can. In any case, these degrees don't seem to belong here (and this is not his biography anyway). Dougweller (talk) 19:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I would not buy a cancer treatment from that man.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:01, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

A simple google search for "University of Homeopathic Medicine South Africa" would have turned up the first organic link to the university at http://www.homeopathysa.co.za/Training.php

That website says:

Universities In South Africa Providing Homeopathic Training:

Click here to visit the Durban Institute of Technology website Click here to visit the University of Johannesburg website

He attended he Johannesburg campus... that website is at http://www.uj.ac.za/EN/Pages/Home.aspx

I am sure getting tired of holding your hands on all this. Either learn to use a search engine, or hold your piece. With the exception of one of you who has given us a halfway fair shake, your editorial comments showing bias against our religion and a conspiracy to keep our wiki article as tiny as possible because of bias against our ancient beliefs are being monitored by our legal staff.

Aniyunwiya (talk) 04:33, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya

Ahem, the man's name is ROGERS, not Johnson. Was that an intentional slur, because "Johnson" is a reference to a male body part.

Grace University, Nevis (now defunct due to death of owner) was registered in the World Health Organization (WHO) directory of accredited medical schools when Dr Rogers attended. After the death, the former medical professor owner's wife moved it to Belize, and ran it into bankruptcy. The Texas Medical School codes differentiate depending on what dates a person attended. Dr. Roger's M.D. degree is perfectly acceptable in any US Hospital, but he chooses not to practice in the medically backward USA. He has been using "Photon Therapy" (Cold Laser) for many years, and the USA is just now getting around to it. The USA is now using everything he used 7-10 years ago, and it has been like that for many years.

See, in the USA they WANT you dead before your time so they don't have to pay back your social security. You guys have all probably been treated by M.D's with Caribbean M.D. degrees. The Texas Medical school code is 66101. See http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/apps/medical_codes.php

Aniyunwiya (talk) 04:20, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya


 * No, I hadn't even thought about Johnson having another meaning, I don't know why I was confused about it. I didn't notice this earlier - you write so much that I don't have time to read it all. I saw the WHO registration but didn't see where it said accredited. Can you provide an official url that shows he graduated from there and when, and another for WHO for that date saying he was accredited. Dougweller (talk) 11:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Message forwarded from Chief Charles L Rogers MD:

orward this communication as is, thank you very much.

Dear wikipedia gentlemen and ladies my Medical license is cedula #1535285 please be so kind to type (especially if your are fortunate enough to speak spanish) in the left search blank of the page of the top link, which will come back C1 meaning that this license has been verified and reverified and there fore should not be checked you  asking  them if it is correct. Oddly enough that is what the C1 definition says. strange, but I guess after 27 years and no complaints I see their point. sent this on to the gentleman who called me or changed my last name to Johnson (penis) and see if one of the other good people would be so kind as to verify my MX lic. by one of theirs who speaks Spanish, that would be wonderful of them, I would not know what a C1 status was either, be sure and sincerely thank them for their help, and please tell them we are in the process of getting everything they asked for ASAP, and could they please take down the obscene deformation of my family name. that would be a kind thing to do for my family and our tribal brothers and sisters and their young children members. Sincerely Charles L. Rogers MD

PS from Aniyunwiya... I explained the wiki rules about professional designation not being allowed, but he is very disturbed about the slurs against his credentials and reputation, being referred to as "Johnson" (slang:penis) rather than Rogers and our tribe possibly having palanco (possibly meaning "tool" also slang for penis. Google palanca+penis and see our point that palanca is spanish alang for penis at http://brownsvilleblues.blogspot.com/2012/10/norma-pull-la-palanca-pull-ernies-penis.html and http://nawcom.com/swearing/catalan.htm

His cedula (professional licenture) may be checked at http://ses.sep.gob.mx/wb/ses/consulta_de_cedulas_profesionales

c1=BACHELOR'S DEGREE AS A PHYSICIAN, SURGEON -- FOREIGN PROFESSIONALS WITH STUDIES ABROAD. His degree at Grace was taken out before Grace developed any bad reputation after the school's owners death, and because it was before a certain cut off date, his MD degree from Grace would be, as far far as Texas is concerned, his MD degree would be perfectly valid and acceptable in Texas because of the date he earned it. If he wished to practice medicine in Texas, he would be allowed to, period. He doesnt care to associate will killer American doctors who do harm with impugnity.

If you see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate#Mexico

You will discover that with his particular cedula, he is considered a diploma awarded professional:

In Mexico, a distinction is made between simply passing all the required courses, just being a graduate (graduado or pasante), and actually obtaining the degree diploma (título profesional). Obtaining the diploma means the student completely concluded his or her studies, and has the right of using the title of Licenciado (Licenciate). Statistics show that historically only about 60% of those graduating actually obtain the diploma.[11] At the same time the diploma is awarded, a professional credential (cédula profesional) may be obtained from the National Directorate of Professions (Dirección General de Profesiones, DGP), which serves as a licence to practice and as a national ID card. Some professions do not require the professional credential, but for others, like Medicine, Accounting, Civil engineering, or Social work, it is mandatory by law.[12] The law also establishes penalties for crimes committed regarding the professional practice, including those in which an individual offers professional services without having the proper diploma or licence.[12]

I doubt Dr. Rogers friends on the cabinet of the President of Mexico would gain only a negative opinion of Wikipedia if they learned that he was being so insulted here... NOT that we are going to say anything.

Wikipedia's veracity isn't taken seriously yet by the man on the street, and we would like to see that change.

Once our bona fides have been established in your minds, Maunus suggested, as we would love to have you all as defenders and monitors of "our" article, rather than apparent mockers of it that some, but not all of you, seem to be. I am sure it will all come out in the wash. Let's just show a little respect, and when you tell the truth tell all of it, not just part of it that is partly accurate, or inaccurate or casts us in a poor light, as occurred with the IRS incident, which I am sure was just was an oversight... understand that the pattern we were seeing was seemingly one of obstruction and insults rather than construction.

Maunus, you said we had a point about Texas Cherokee article vs "ours" and that needed to be looked at. Why not show some good faith and do so.

Thanks folks, and have an enjoyable Labor Day weekend... and get Dr Rogers named above changed from Johnson to Rogers for heavens sake.

Be well!

Aniyunwiya (talk) 09:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya


 * No insult meant, sheer accident, I assume I was also dealing with someone named Johnson at around the same time - it's been a long time since I heard that slang meaning and I'd forgotten it. Dougweller (talk) 11:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Also, what Texas Cherokee article? Dougweller (talk) 11:49, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have already taken care of the Texas Cherokee article and removed all the poorly sourced material. The point about ROgers' possible doctorate is moot, because we are not writing a biography of him and we cannot and will not make a special exception from policy to call him "Dr. Rogers".User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Overhaul
Okay, I started over from scratch combing every mention of the "Cherokee Nation of Mexico" online from a source that is not a blog or self-published site. -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * Thanks. I found a few promotional mentions of it in other articles. There are more. Dougweller (talk) 05:59, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * So will you clean them up? -Uyvsdi (talk) 15:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * I looked at a couple. Most notably removing an external link at Sequoyah.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * They are all done now I think. Dougweller (talk) 16:11, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Mvto! Teamwork! -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Hey team... here is one you probably missed. http://mexfiles.net/2008/03/13/indigenous-immigrants/

were a guy named Steve Gallagher says:

permalink 30 March 2008 2:25 pm

There is a page started about the Cherokee Nation of Mexico on the “Politica en Mexico” wiki. Links to this article and others. People are welcome to contribute to this page and others.

I recently returned from visiting a small Mixtec village in Oaxaca, and since have been working on posting to this wiki, inspired by the works of the APPO and the Zapatistas.

See: http://www.wiki.pemex.org/index.php?title=Cherokee_Nation_of_Mexico

Aniyunwiya (talk) 02:39, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya

If the November 2000 back issue of Cowboys and Indian magazine were up online, you would see this about Chief Rogers being feted by "The American Indian Chamber of Commerce of Texas" at http://www.aicct.com/ but their archives online don't go back that far.

http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/images/cb_lg.jpg

BTW, isn't the "Congressional Record" a secondary source? You deleted my direct link to this document on a US Govt website: http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/images/record_lg.jpg

Aniyunwiya (talk) 03:00, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya


 * Looks like you need to pay your web designer, since everything links to "Lone Wolf Web Design." Mexfiles.net is a self-published blog. -Uyvsdi (talk) 23:06, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * Go to the actual http://www.cherokeediscovery.com website near the bottom of the page and click on he image of the Congressional Record and you will see it enlarged. I previously provided a direct link that Congressional Record from Senator Jim Ihofe on a US Gov website, but you saw fit to delete it.

Our webmaster is well paid.

Aniyunwiya (talk) 22:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya


 * And yet I can't see such an image. Not that it matters, I've already commented on this and seen it. Any Senator or Congressman can get anything into the CR. Dougweller (talk) 06:34, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Use of the Congressional Record has come up before in regard to issues like this. See Talk:Yamasee. An editor had been trying to use a cite from the Congressional Record to support the claim that the Yamasee were Africans who had come to America before Columbus. It is true that a person testified to that effect before a Congressional committee. But as Donald Albury put it so well at the end of the discussion, "What a member of Congress said about a subject may be notable enough to include in Wikipedia as a report of what that member said, but that does not mean that we can cite the statement itself as factual." And in this Yamasee case it wasn't even a member of Congress speaking. Further, I cannot find the CR image mentioned above on those pages, but as talk:Dougweller said, it probably does not matter. Pfly (talk) 06:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Federal Recognition of Oklevueha Ancient Cherokee Church of the One God Yo He Waah
Now that the door has been opened by you as contributors to the fact that inside the borders of the USA that the Cherokee Nation of Mexico is styled as an "IRS 170(b)(1)(A)(i) organization" and the legal facts are that this church church became, as of February 2013, an independent branch of Oklevueha Native American Church (ONAC) which is the only FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED off-reservation Native American Church, with the same federal ID number as the 1918 chartered Rosebud Native American Church. See 1918 Articles of Incorporation at http://nativeamericanchurches.org/uncategorized/articles-of-incorporation-of-the-native-american-church-october-10-1918/.

A newly chartered ONAC branch as of February 2013 is "The Oklevueha Ancient Cherokee Church of The One God Yo He Waah." Our ONAC charter showing Federal ID #841402813 will be uploaded soon, at our convenience, and you will be notified of the URL in gthe domain http://www.theancientcherokeechurchoftheonegodyohewaah.org/ when that occurs.

I say again... all Oklevueha independent branch churches are federally recognized Native American Churches, branching from the mother church federally recognized 1918 Rosebud Reservation NAC and later on-reservation NA churches.

There are serious legal consequences for violating our rights. see http://nativeamericanchurches.org/2590-2/

For documentation of ONACs legal status, see http://nativeamericanchurches.org/legal-documentation-pages/

See also http://nativeamericanchurches.org/legal/

Of particular interest to you should be a certain Wall Street Journal article which outlines our upcoming lawsuit against the United States of America, which will he heard this fall. see http://nativeamericanchurches.org/oklevueha-native-american-church-of-hawaii-sues-the-united-states-of-america/

The US Courts ruling at http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2012/04/09/10-17687.pdf

If you want to do something constructive instead of suppressing CN Mexico, go re-write the Wiki Native American Church article.

Aniyunwiya (talk) 07:44, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya


 * Editor warned about possible legal threat, will take to ANI if he doesn't make it clear no legal action is suggested. Dougweller (talk) 10:42, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * If you want, you could make an article for Oklevueha Ancient Cherokee Church of the One God Yo He Waah; not sure if it could demonstrate adequate notability. Despite "of Mexico" being in the Cherokee Nation of Mexico's name, all addresses online are in Texas, not Mexico. -Uyvsdi (talk) 23:10, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * Dr Rogers was kidnapped in Matamoros in 2005. see http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/international/americas/23mexico.html?_r=0

where it says "Americans in other border cities have also reported being kidnapped. Dr. Charles Rogers, 57, a Brownsville oncologist who ran a cancer clinic in the Mexican city of Matamoros, which is just across the Rio Grande from Brownsville near where it feeds into the Gulf of Mexico, was abducted at his clinic and held hostage at gunpoint for several hours on Dec. 9, until he arranged for his wife to pay an $88,000 ransom.

In an interview, Dr. Rogers said he was stopped by three men who identified themselves as Mexican federal police officers. After the ransom was paid, he said, he jumped from a moving vehicle to escape because he was afraid the kidnappers were going to kill him. He left his clinic to Mexican physicians and now consults by videoconferencing.

"I have not been back since," he said. "I am never going back."

Doctor Rogers was beaten in the head with a lead pipe during that ordeal. Three days previous, he had endorsed another Mexican Cherokee for political office, and believes the Zetas disguised as cops were the purps.

That is why our offices are in the USA. We can and probably will open a satellite office in Matamoros, MX where Dr Reyes (under Dr Rogers) and her staff works.

Aniyunwiya (talk) 22:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC)  Aniyunwiya


 * I was under the impression that removal of someone else's comments on the talk page of the wiki article he initiated was against wikipedia policy. Who removed my protests against my all the unfair "wikipedia polices" that I posted here a few days ago? and why? Please point me to a wiki policy that states this can be done by someone.

Aniyunwiya (talk) 18:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya


 * No one has removed any of your posts on this page. You posted most of your complaints on your user page at User:Aniyunwiya. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:21, 3 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * I figured that out. My apologies. It's hard not to be paranoid after all the prejudice we've been subjected to here... trying to make peace though.

Just an observation, compared to us, the Catholics are "new agey!" We have a photo of our Chief Priest Rogers talking to The Catholic Bishop of Mexico about the God of Abraham, whom we worship. The New Agers have adopted a lot of our old teachings. I've known about their agenda since 1980. Read "Hidden Dangers Of The Rainbow" by Constance Cumbey.

By the way, what is your reference source from all the ruckus over James Mooney, which seems to amount to Politically Correct Book Burning? The ONLY people I have seen say anything are CHINOs... Cherokees in name only, or "Cherokeets," who repeat what they hear regardless... people who don't keep the old religion or traditions as we do.

In ANY case thanks for taking an interest! You guys are gonna have a BIG feather in your cap soon, and some good WikiTurf to stand on.

Aniyunwiya (talk) 00:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya


 * You have not been "subjected" to "prejudice." You have, despite innumerable warnings, breached Wikipedia policies repeatedly, promoted your POV without reliable sources, and continually speculate about other editors' motives. We want to keep articles encyclopedic, verifiable, and adhering to a neutral point of view. -Uyvsdi (talk) 01:15, 4 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

1721 Cherokee Migration to Mexico
If you will Google the words

1721 dangerous man cherokee migration

You will discover many web sources and see that the Cherokee Nation in Tahlequah hosts a power point program making mention of it at http://taskforce.cherokee.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=z%2B7RfPUFsSI= which opens to URL http://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=http%3A%2F%2Ftaskforce.cherokee.org%2FLinkClick.aspx%3Ffileticket%3Dz%252B7RfPUFsSI%3D which is a presentation by a professor Carrol A. Morrow Pd.D, Foreign Languages and Anthropology at South East Missouri State University which mentions the 1721 migration under "Dangerous Man" on page 38 of 70. The web is FULL of such references to this 1721 migration because Sequoyah followed up on it.

Aniyunwiya (talk) 21:52, 2 September 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya


 * Please, read Identifying reliable sources. There was a 1721 migration but no conclusive evidence that it led to Mexico, and no secondary, published sources written by third parties connect it to the organization "Cherokee Nation of Mexico." -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * Earlier in this discussion the facts of the 1721migration itself, not its connection to us were questioned. This is just an FYI.


 * Yes, but the discussion has moved on. This article is about "Cherokee Nation of Mexico," so everything on it should connect directly to the organization as found in published secondary sources. Any attempt to connect historical events to this organization that haven't been published would be original research or Synthesis of published material that advances a position. -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Also FYI, leather bound copies of our FIFTH petition (which I drafted) over he last 150 years, for recognition under the new 2003 Law, our last recognition being 12 years ago on August 30, 2001, are being dispatched later this week via special messenger to every member of Gubernacion in Mexico City.

see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Cherokee_history#1540.E2.80.931775 and the reference to the 1721 migration:

"1721: The Cherokee signed the Treaty with the Province of South Carolina, ceding land between the Santee, Saluda, and Edisto Rivers. Subsequently, the first recorded band of Cherokee crossed the Mississippi River, supposedly led by a warrior named Dangerous Man (Yunwiusgaseti). Part of this band allegedly reached the Rocky Mountains and survived into the 19th century.[citation needed] In an attempt to reunite the Cherokee, Sequoyah left Indian territory for northern Mexico, where he disappeared."

also see http://www.archive.org/stream/mythsofcherokee00moon/mythsofcherokee00moon_djvu.txt

Where it says:

Yufi'wl-usga'se tl — "Dangerous Man, Terrible Man"; a traditional leader in the westward migration of the Cherokee. See page 99.

Dangerous man, migration under 99-100

and the real zinger: wait for it... a drum roll please.....

EARLY WESTWARD EMIGRATION 99

unknown, and the children of such union were usually compelled by race antipathy to cast their lot with the savage.

Under such circumstances the tribes viewed the advance of the English and their successors, the Americans, with keen distrust, and as early as the close of the French and Indian war we find some of them removing from the neighborhood of the English settlements io a safer shelter in the more remote territories still held by Spain, Soon after the French withdrew from Fort Toulouse, in 1763, a part of the Alabama, an incorporated tribe of the ('reek confederacy, left their villages on the Coosa, and crossing the Mississippi, where they halted for a time on its western bank, settled on the Sabine river under Spanish protection. 1 They were followed some years later by a part of the Koasati. of the same confederacy." the two tribe.- subsequently drifting into Texas, where they now reside. The Hichitee and others of the Lower Creeks moved down into Spanish Florida, where the Yamassee exiles from South Carolina had long before preceded them, the two combining to form the modern Seminole tribe. When the Revolution brought about a new line of division, the native tribes, almost without exception, joined sides with England as against the Americans, with the result that about one-half the Iroquois tied to Canada, where they still reside upon lands granted by the British gov- ernment. A short time before' Wayne's victory a part of the Shawano and Delawares, worn out by nearly twenty years of battle with the Americans, crossed the Mississippi and settled, by permission of the Spanish government, upon lands in the vicinity of Cape Girardeau, in what is now southeastern Missouri, for which they obtained a regular deed from that government in 1793. 3 Driven out by the Americans some twenty years later, they removed to Kansas and thence to Indian territory, where they are now incorporated with their old friends, the Cherokee.

When the first Cherokee crossed the Mississippi it is impossible to say, but there was probably never a time in the history of the tribe when their warriors and hunters were not accustomed to make excur- sions beyond the great river. According to an old tradition, the earliest emigration took place soon after the first treaty with Carolina, when a portion of the tribe, under the leadership of Yunwi-usga'se'ti, ••Dangerous-man," forseeing the inevitable end of yielding to the demands of tin 3 colonists, refused to have any relations with the white man, and took up their long march for the unknown West. Commu- nication was kept up with the home body until after crossing the Mississippi, when they were lost sight of and forgotten. Long years

'■Claiborne, letter to Jefferson, November 5, 1808, American State Papers, i, p. 755, 1832; Gatschet, Creek Migration Legend, i, p. 88, 1884. - Hawkins, 1799. quoted in Gatschet, op. cit., p. 89. 3 See Treaty of St Louis, 1S25, and of Castor hill, 1S52, in Indian Treaties, pp. 388, 539, 1837.

Aniyunwiya (talk) 22:20, 2 September 2013 (UTC) Anuyunwiya

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400 CE
Regarding this addition: In the year 400 AD the Cherokee sent a large colony to Meixco. [sic]   This has nothing to do with the nonprofit organization founded by Charles L. Rogers (the subject of this article). It's also WP:FRINGE. Mexico was not a country in 400 CE. A letter from 1828 is not a reliable source for any kind of history. Yuchitown (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Yuchitown (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2024 (UTC)