Talk:Cherokee language/Archive 1

Useless Phrase
I deleted the unnecessary phrase "and is difficult for English-speakers to learn." All languages are difficult to learn and I don´t see why English-speakers are singled out. I doubt it is easier for Dutch-speakers, for example, to learn Cherokee than English-speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.49.55.253 (talk) 23:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point. Dexter Nextnumber (talk) 09:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What do you base the declaration that "all languages are difficult to learn" upon? Some languages are easy to learn. Some are harder than others. This is partly subjective, but there is good research that exists on this subject. Also, English is singled out because this is the ENGLISH version of the article. It's not hard to understand why ENGLISH should be relevant to the readers of the article, then, now is it? Have you ever learned another language? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:7500:445:5CA4:B18F:F0D8:D6D1:3505 (talk) 16:47, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Vandalism
This article was vandalised - somebody swapped out the word "Cherokee" for "retard" in the language box. I went in and deleted most of that, but unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to replace it with the correct information (I came here to learn about it). Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable than I will come along and update it. If not, I'll come back in a few days when time permits and chase up some links to put in the correct information. 75.19.177.127 13:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Cherokee Phonemes
The current article indicates that the difference between t and d (and k & g likewise) is voicing. However, it seems to me, after reading an article on the Rosetta Project that the phonemic difference is aspiration. Thus,


 * t
 * d
 * k
 * g
 * tl
 * dl

This is not to say that these stops are never voiced, it just means that the voicing is not the phonemic difference. Does this seem like a worthy change? If you want to see that article I mentioned, it's at the Rosetta Project (that link should work).


 * -Benjamin

There is no phonemic difference between unaspirated and aspirated stops and affricates in Cherokee (which are commonly heard as unvoiced/voiced by L2 learners). What you are describing with your IPA transcriptions are allophones. The affricate is mistranscribed, however. It is not segment /t/ + segment /l/ or some version thereof but rather only one segment. MTBradley 17:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I just took a closer look at some information I have on the Cherokee language, and came up with the following list of Cherokee letters, using Durbin Feeling's practical orthography.


 * g
 * k
 * h
 * l
 * hl
 * m
 * n
 * hn
 * gw
 * kw
 * s
 * d
 * t
 * dl
 * tl
 * j
 * w  (velar approximant), or sometimes
 * hw
 * y
 * yh
 * ʔ

Vowels


 * a
 * e
 * i
 * o
 * u
 * v

I believe this is correct, so I will add this to the article. I will also put my references at the bottom of the page. Let me know if you have any corrections, suggestions, or questions!

-Benjamin

Syllabics/Unicode/Pronunciation table
Delete this table if is not so useful...

¢ ᏁᏕ NevilleDNZ 15:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC) ¢

Tsalagi
If the native name of the language is Tsalagi as stated in the "Grammar" section, shouldn't it also be mentioned in the definition? (Instead of current "???") --Cyco130 03:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It's not ???. It's three Cherokee letters that aren't displaying correctly on your system.--Prosfilaes 03:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh yes! Thank you. But I still think that a romanized version should be included, as it'is for Arabic, Chinese, Japanese etc. --Cyco130 05:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I've added &#123;{unicode}}, which should help with the display of the Cherokee script. --Gareth Hughes 21:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, what I meant was that other articles about languages using non-roman scripts contain: language's native name in the native script _and_ language's native name in the romanized script. So I still think that "tsalagi" should be added. Any ideas? --Cyco130 01:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Cherokee Slang
Cherokee Slang is up for deletion and I thought I'd leave a message here in case anyone is interested. I don't think it's strong enough to stand as an article itself, but there is a reference given, and perhaps some info there could be salvaged here?

Just FYI. --DanielCD 21:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I posted a link to the wiktionary and transwiki'ed the article into the wiktionary, and asked the closing admin on the Afd to archive the original article to preserve the content. Waya sahoni 04:18, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Needs references and expansion
It mostly has information about the grammar, phonology, and writing system. It needs more references and to be expanded. Tim Q. Wells (20 Feb 06)
 * NOTE: What do you think needs adding here? I speak and write several dialects of Cherokee and I am happy to help. I know that verb stem construction would be useful as well as all the possessive constructs in the language related to tense and conjugation. There's a lot of areas that need expanding here. Please advise. Waya sahoni 05:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[No Title]
I like the article -- very informative. FYI, "tone sandhi" is mis-explained. It looks like some information got lost. Tone sandhi is the change of tone when in the environment of another tone. E.g., in Mandarin, tone 3 becomes tone 2 when it occurs before tone 3 (3 3 -> 2 3). This is not the same as the simplification of a tone system over time, which is kind of how the article reads at present.

Jonathan &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.109.150.55 (talk • contribs) 08:32, 27 February 2006.

Actually, Oklahoma Cherokee seems to have become more tonally complex over the period since the Removal. North Carolina Cherokee has only two phonemic pitch distinctions. If I understand the issue correctly, Oklahoma Cherokee contour tones are related to the lose of glottal stop.

Perhaps the article is meant more specifically to say that Oklahoma Cherokee is undergoing tonal simplification at the present time. MTBradley 17:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Southern Iroquoian
Article is not correct in stating that Cherokee is the only southern Iroquoian language still spoken. Tuscarora is spoken in Ontario and New York State, and perhaps has a few speakers in North Carolina.


 * Tuscarora isn't a southern Iroquoian language; it's in the family of northern Iroquoian language.--Prosfilaes 15:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Tuscarora IS a southern Iroquois language and very closely related to Cherokee.

Recall that the ancestral homeland of the Tuscarora is in North Carolina. The only reason Tuscarora is spoken in New York State and Ontario is that the majority of Tuscarora migrated to New York State in the late 18th century and came under the protection of the Oneida (and became the "sixth nation" of the Iroquois League). Some Tuscarora are still in North Carolina, where a few of them probably still speak the language.

So the article should be changed. Tom129.93.17.213 20:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * In all linguistic classifications of Iroquoian I've seen, Tuscarora is classified as Northern Iroquoian (more specifically, the Tuscarora-Nottoway subbranch). This is how Lyle Campbell (an expert on the historical linguistics of Native languages) classifies it, how Marianne Mithun (an expert on Iroquoian languages generally, and Tuscaroran specifically, who has worked with a number of Tuscaroran speakers) classifies it, how the Ethnologue classifies it...


 * What is your evidence for claiming that Tuscarora is Southern, not Northern, Iroquoian? --Miskwito 21:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Tsalagi and tsa-la-gi ga-wo-ni-hi-is-di
What is the difference between Tsalagi and tsa-la-gi ga-wo-ni-hi-is-di? Should tsa-la-gi ga-wo-ni-hi-is-di be capitalized and become Tsa-la-gi ga-wo-ni-hi-is-di?

ICE77 -- 81.104.129.226 19:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Cherokee Scouting
Can someone render "Be Prepared", the Scout Motto, into Cherokee script? Thanks! Chris 03:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Useless encoding
Is there any chance of having the symbols as image files i.e. jpgs/pngs etc. I can't see a single thing on this page other than IPA, Roman and the distribution map. --MacRusgail 04:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
This article was vandalised - somebody swapped out the word "Cherokee" for "retard" in the language box. I went in and deleted most of that, but unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to replace it with the correct information (I came here to learn about it). Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable than I will come along and update it. If not, I'll come back in a few days when time permits and chase up some links to put in the correct information. 75.19.177.127 13:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for helping! See Help:Reverting for more info on how to help recover from vandalism.  --Kbh3rd talk  19:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Tones
I think that it would be useful to include information about the properties of the tones like in the articles for other tonal languages(i.e contour or register tones, pitch of the tones etc.) If anyone knows anything about something like this please put it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.21.163 (talk) 23:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the section on tone is practically useless. Putting that Cherokee has a "robust tonal system" provides almost no information besides the fact that Cherokee is tonal. This is just like going to the page on Mandarin Chinese and putting "There are tones", without going into any detail. Why doesn't this article cover the tones as well as other articles on tonal languages like the ones for Mandarin, Cantonese, Navajo, Thai, Vietnamese, etc.? Please, somebody put in some better information here. Se Cyning —Preceding unsigned comment added by Se Cyning (talk • contribs) 04:32, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Why not Latin alphabet even?
Why do they never use the Latin alphabet? May they not either use both Sequoyah and Latin?

--81.228.158.173 (talk) 13:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Your question reflects a lack of understanding about the cultures of these indigenous people. The Cherokee (as well as all indigenous peoples) have been "Europeanized" to the point that much of their culture has been completely lost.  Why should they make themselves conform to a foreign culture even more?   The fact is, the Cherokee now teach the language to their children as a first-language (not a second-language) right along side English.  A four or five-year-old school child isn't going to know how to read the word TSALAGI any better than ᏣᎳᎩ, so why not teach them the right way in the first place?  From the Cherokee perspective, your question is like asking us, "Why don't you learn English by using a Cyrillic alphabet?"  It just doesn't make sense...Why use a foreign alphabet to learn your own language?  (Incidentally, if you can't read ᏣᎳᎩ, you need to install the font from here.)     ++Arx Fortis (talk) 23:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There is also the question of how well a writing system fits a language. Let's say that a good writing system is easy and fast to learn and use, and communicates meaning unambiguously. If we were going to represent spoken words really accurately, we could all use the International Phonetic Alphabet. But every language I know of lacks some of the distinctions of the IPA (it clumps different sounds into phonemes). The IPA is also slow to write out, because one has to write every phone, and there are lots of symbols that look very similar. Sometimes the written language also needs to be less ambiguous than the spoken language ("What did you mean to say?" is easier than "What did you mean in the letter you sent me last summer?"). Languages therefore use specialized writing systems. These systems are a better (easier, faster, less ambiguous) way of writing their language than any generalized system.


 * For instance, compare the Cherokee phrases written in both their native syllabary and a Latin-alphabet approximation. The Latin-alphabet version is much longer. An IPA version would be longer, too. I'd guess that one can write Cherokee about twice as fast using the Cherokee syllabary, because one doesn't waste time on distinctions which are unimportant in Cherokee.


 * The Latin alphabet also can't write some distinctions. A look at the table will show some Cherokee phonemes are hard to distinguish using the Latin alphabet. The Latin alphabet also has to be modified to show tones. It doesn't even do English very well ("I like to read"/"I once read it"). It was only designed to write Latin!


 * Finally, the Cherokee language in popular culture, with slight bearing on the above argument: http://xkcd.com/84/ (not sure if this is worth including in the article, though; it's pretty trivial).HLHJ (talk) 21:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Folks, remember this is not a forum or a chat service. Xihr 01:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Thing of it is, the latin alphabet isnt even native to English. The Germanic English have been romanized over the centuries. Quite frankly, I think that ᛖᚾᚷᛚᛁᛋᚻ ᛋᚻᚩᚢᛚᛞ ᛒᛖ ᚹᚱᛁᛏᛏᛖᚾ ᛁᚾ ᚱᚢᚾᛁᚳ ᚹᚱᛁᛏᛁᚾᚷ, ᛞᚢᛖ ᛏᚩ ᛏᚻᛖ ᚠᚪᚳᛏ ᛏᚻᚪᛏ ᚱᚢᚾᛁᚳ ᛁᛋ ᛏᚻᛖ ᛖᚾᚷᛚᛁᛋᚻ ᚾᚪᛏᛁᚡᛖ ᛋᚳᚱᛁᛈᛏ, ᛈᛚᚪᛁᚾ ᚪᚾᛞ ᛋᛁᛗᛈᛚᛖ. :) —Ƿōdenhelm (talk) 02:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Native Cherokee Lexicon Translation Project
Please see Native Cherokee Lexicon Translation Project. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Are any efforts being introduced to save this language with so little speakers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.75.37.0 (talk) 20:29, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Archaic mv and lowercase
The archaic syllable mv and a whole set of small syllables have been added to Unicode 8.0.0 which will be released in a few months. I have expanded NevilleDNZ’s table here under. Perhaps the new characters don’t display correctly yet. I hope Cherokee fonts will soon be updated.

New characters are marked with a yellow background.

Tohuvabohuo (talk) 04:27, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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New book on pitch patterns
New book on pitch patterns: Tone and Accent in Oklahoma Cherokee by Hiroto Uchihara, 2016, Oxford University Press Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 20:10, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

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Anything worth merging?
Hi! I had a student create a draft article, however they never made their edits live. (User:Oi40/Cherokee) I was wondering if anything from the draft would be worth merging offhand, so I wanted to make a mention of this here. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 15:31, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

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Could this be used?
Hi! I had a student a while back who drafted some work in her sandbox. I'm not sure what should be moved into the article space, so I wanted to drop it here just in case anything can be used: User:Oi40/Cherokee Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 20:29, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

syllabic breakdown
In the lists of day, month and color words, syllables are marked by hyphens or spaces. Why? —Tamfang (talk) 18:08, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't know why, but it's pretty common in learning materials. It's easier for a beginner to read them with the dashes, and it helps a bit with remembering the syllabary. --Djembayz (talk) 01:41, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yet we don't do that for Japanese. It's always struck me as patronizing the "primitives". —Tamfang (talk) 16:01, 30 September 2015 (UTC)