Talk:Cherokee removal

History
You should not have moved this article without discussion. It should remain "Cherokee Trail of Tears".Odestiny (talk) 06:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Given that there is an article on "Trail of Tears" covering the experiences of all five of the "Five Civilized Tribes", I thought there being another article with this one's former name was redundant. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 11:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Originally that article was Trail of Tears and focused on the Cherokee. Then a person claiming Choctaw heritage changed it to focus more on the five tribes in general and created the Cherokee Trail of Tears as a separate article. Although several tribes were removed, it is common to think of the Trail of Tears as referring to the Cherokee. The original article might be better called "Indian removal" based on the "Indian Removal Act and leave the other as Cherokee Trail of Tears. However, I think it was better to simply have the one article Trail of Tears with all the information included there. Odestiny (talk) 16:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

The phrase "Trail of Tears" was a later 19th century invention of white romanticism about the "noble savage"; Mooney, for instance, never uses the phrase in any of the books he wrote on the Cherokee. There is almost as much myth and romantic misconception about Cherokee removal as there is about the early days of Cherokee interaction with the English. The NPS' Trail of Tears National Historic Trail is seriously flawed and largely unresearched (for instance, it includes Moccasin Bend, which had less than zero to do with Cherokee removal), for example, and the annual Trail of Tears motorcycle ride follows the route of the John Bell party, all Treaty Party members who were removed at government expense. The very name "Trail of Tears" has become part of the mythos, and "Cherokee removal" is a much more scholarly and less emotionally-charged title, which is therefore more in keeping with Wikipedia standards for naming articles. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 17:14, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Besides, the phrase "trail of tears" was first used to refer to the forced removal of the Choctaw in 1830, so if any tribe "owns" the phrase, it's them. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 22:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I am planning soon to significantly edit this article and add more information. For many years, I have researched the Removal (the "TOT" was not used by Cherokees at the time), including compiling a roster of everyone who was a participant and the names of all known to have perished. One reason that the numbers are fuzzy was because Chief John Ross monkeyed with expense accounts submitted to the Army. The Removal occurred in distinct phases: 1)volunteers and Treaty Party folks (1836-April, 1838); 2) Scott's Army Round-Up (May-June, 1838); 3) internment camps (June-Aug.1838); 4) Chief John Ross's main removal of 12 wagon trains and the steamboat "Victoria" (Oct.1838-April,1839). I will furnish a list of every known emmigrant detachment, whether travelling by boat or overland. Several of my ancestors were in the Removal. Records of the Removal are scattered among Federal civilian and military records and John Ross's personal papers. By the way, the probable death toll was ca. 1200-1600 and not the 4000 figure always cited. The Cherokee Removal was probably the easiest of the five tribes, but is certainly the best documented. (Oconostota (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC))
 * The best authorities, Duane King and his associates, give the number 350 total, includive of the deaths in the camps and in transit. The official figures from the Cherokee Agency, Fo9rt Smith, and Ross have been published for nearly a century by Starr. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 18:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 350? Ha. The idea that a whole nation of people could be forced to WALK from Georgia to Oklahoma through the winter and only have 350 deaths is ridiculous.  May I remind you that America does not have a history of liking to admit mistakes.  They prefer to brush over things like this, or "discredit" death counts with "revisions" in order to lessen the perceived toll of the country's actions.  Saying 350 died is an insult to all natives and our ancestors.  That would be akin to somebody claiming "9/11 wasn't that bad. Only like 500 people actually died."  139.78.176.1 (talk) 19:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Physicians counted 353 deaths in the camps for June-August, 1838, which was only a small part of the Cherokee Removal program and prior to the actual main exodus. The best estimate for fatalities during the entire process is somewhere between 1100 to 2000 deaths, which is much less than the conventional figure of 4000 found in most reference works. I have found the names of 1600 who perished from all causes (including a woman killed by a falling tree). By the way, Collins McDonald the assistant conductor of the 10th wagon train (George Hicks, Conductor) was my ancestor. (Oconostota) (207.245.188.92 (talk) 19:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC))

The claimed death toll of 4,000 is directly contradicted by this article which claims that the actual records indicate a true death toll of between 447 and 840.

https://newsok.com/article/2217279/trail-of-tears-death-toll-myths-dispelled

The author also identifies the unreliable source of the 4,000 figure commonly quoted.

Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.57.78 (talk) 15:49, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Additional Article
Hello, there is an article here, http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1433, that might be useful.

Thanks,

Justin --Duboiju (talk) 15:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

section removal- personal narratives
Hello, I am new to Wikipedia and attempting to improve this article as part of a class project. The personal narratives section has too many long quotes and is bringing the whole article down. Also, it doesn't add anything of value, so rather than attempting to find a way to make some of the narratives fit, i want to just get rid of the section altogether and maybe relocate some of the information. Look-at-me-i&#39;m-white-and-nerdy! (talk) 14:50, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Number of deaths?
The commonly claimed death toll of 4,000 is directly contradicted by this interesting article which claims that the actual records indicate a true death toll of between 447 and 840.

https://newsok.com/article/2217279/trail-of-tears-death-toll-myths-dispelled

Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.172.94 (talk) 16:10, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

atlanta
"Upon these lands were the alignments for the future rights-of-way for rail and road communications between the eastern Piedmont slopes of the Appalachian Mountains, the Ohio River in Kentucky and the Tennessee River Valley at Chattanooga. This location is still a strategic economic asset and is the basis for the tremendous success of Atlanta, Georgia, as a regional transportation and logistics center. Georgia's appropriation of these lands from the Cherokee kept the wealth out of the hands of the Cherokee Nation."

This is bit of historical determinism. The author has gone back and imagined what it would have been like if the Cherokee had remained in control of their Georgia lands, but if the Cherokee, and their neighbors had proceeded through history as if the Cherokee had been removed.

My understanding is that Georgia built the Western and Atlantic Railroad to Chattanooga immediately after negotiating the removal of the Cherokee. If the Cherokee Nation had retained their land, Georgia would have had less control, and got less benefit from the venture. It's possible a direct rail link from Chattanooga to the Mid-Atlantic would not have been built for decades if the Cherokee weren't removed, which would have changed the region's history going into the Civil War. An unbiased source would have to determine to what extent the region's strategic value was increased for Georgian and Tennessean stakeholders by removal.

Anyways, building rail through reservation land was, is, a source of conflict and deprivation in Indian Territory, if it had happened in Georgia instead of Oklahoma, it's a stretch to posit that the wealth would have made it to Cherokee hands.

romnempire (talk) 14:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

The leader that massacred the Indians that didn't want to be moved
The leader that killed wemon and children Indians 50.96.234.219 (talk) 13:28, 12 December 2022 (UTC)