Talk:Cherokee society/Archive 1

Changes
I have deleted former postings on this talk page because I'm starting over. I'm asking as nicely as possible to discuss changes to Cherokee Society with me before you jump in and change anything. Please tell me what you'll be changing, why, and what positive advantages the article will have. I've decided to stay on and '''please do not add the former postings on the this talk page back. I'll only keep deleting them because I desire the discussion page to start fresh and new'''. --Bumpusmills1 20:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Please consult the policy on article ownership. Nobody has to consult you per se about changes. They just need to make their reasoning known either in the edit summary or on the talk page. Articles here aren't owned by anyone. --BWD 15:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Everything was calming down and then you, whomever you are, come here being a buttinski trying too start trouble again. --Bumpusmills1 16:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You need to stop Bumpus, BWD is correct. You do not own the article and do not have veto power over changes that are made. Staxringold 17:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Scm83x
This user has opening admitted knowing "zero" about Native American anything. So why is he so set on editing an article he knows "zero" about? I'd suggest he leave the article alone. He is gettin' a might to big for his breeches. --Bumpusmills1 00:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I am editing for compatibility with the Wikipedia Manual of Style. Anyone can make these sort of changes.  Please consult Wikipedia policy on article ownership. Thanks. -Scm83x 00:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah Yeah. Chatter on.  If you know nothing about the topic then leave it alone.--Bumpusmills1 00:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You clearly don't understand how Wikipedia works. Knowing about the topic only matters if you are editing substantive pieces of the article. Scm, on the other hand, was conforming with Wikipedia style conventions which can be done by any user to any article, regardless of content. Look at Xanadu House or Dinosaur (the most recent Featured Articles) and you will see that you have the coat far too big. Staxringold 16:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Go

 * Get your lil' backside away from here. --Bumpusmills1 01:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Outside view on situation
I am an admin with experience in Native American issues. I was asked to look into the discussions referred to on this talk page, especially about the articles Cherokee society and Native American spirituality. First off, it appears that the Cherokee society article has some needed information which Wikipedia has been missing (and I'm glad to see it). However, the article needs to conform to Wikipedia styles, which means, among other things, using a NPOV writing style (meaning that the sentence in the lead which says "Hopefully through the efforts of this article some will find their way to the "Old Ways" of Cherokee Society." need to be reworked). The photo of the primary author of the article should also be removed b/c Wikipedia does not allow posting of vanity material. As for Native American spirituality, there is no reason that article should redirect to Cherokee Spirituality and Culture, which then redirects to Cherokee society. I'd suggest editing Native American spirituality separately from the Cherokee article. As a side note, though, I should mention that Native American spirituality sounds like the sort of New Age fluff white people would write about Native Americans. After all, I don't see any articles on Wikipedia about "Caucasion spirituality" or "African American spirituality." Finally, I hope everyone here will work toward achieving consensus on the article. Anyway, hope some of this helps. Best,--Alabamaboy 01:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Very good information
I want to repeat that the info on Cherokee Society here is a very good start to the article. I'd definately keep this article separate from whatever Native American spirituality turns out to be. This society article is greatly needed at Wikipedia. Best,--Alabamaboy 02:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have been working on a Statement of Purpose for the article. As for the Native American Spirituality article I think I'll concentrate on Cherokee Society for now and then I'll move on and create other, similar, articles on some of the other tribes.  I think you're correct about the Fluffy Bunny analogy.  I'd not thought of it in that manner.  I'm sorry about the vandalism.  I think you know what I was attempting too do.  It was wrong, but I was trying too wake the lad up a bit.  I'd rather you, AdelaMae, and Martial Law assist me in learning.  I might add that you may have to show me some examples of what you mean and all.  Some of the explanations are, well, above my comprehension at this point.  Thanks for your kind words and assistance.  --Bumpusmills1 02:28, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Not a problem. Anything I can do to help, just let me know. I'm about to retire for the night but I'll check in tomorrow and see if there is anything I can do. I can also help you clean up the article to conform to Wikipedia standards, if you want. I left info on your talk page about this. Just so you know, though, I have never seen a Wikipedia article with a statement of purpose so I'd avoid putting that in (although, I suppose, the statement could go on the article's talk page). I'd just keep going with the info you have. Best,--Alabamaboy 02:32, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure if you can clean it up I'd be very happy for YOU too do so. Please suggest to Scm83x that you're handling this from this point forward.  This subject matter is a passion of mine and I really get offended when somebody seems to abuse it.  Wado (Thank You in Cherokee) --Bumpusmills1 02:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've got a bit of time so I'm going to Wikify the article (so to speak) right now. Essentially this means I will format the article per Wiki standards, fix up the lead (or introductory paragraph) a bit, and give some additional context to the article. Check it out in about an hour. If you have any questions or comment on what I do, just let me know.Best, --Alabamaboy 16:46, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much Alabama. There is some other user, a BWD, who tried to start up an argument on this very talk page.  Everything is calming down and I'd like it to kindly remain this way.  --Bumpusmills1 16:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've done some basic work. First, I reworked the lead or introductory paragraph. The lead is supposed to summarize and provide the basic context to the article. I also added an image to the article from the main Cherokee article (but if you don't like the image feel free to dump it). Finally, I added links in the article (like to the main article on the Cherokee clans) and see also links at the bottom. I also added links to this article from the other Cherokee articles so people can find it.
 * One thing you'll need to work on in this article is the information in the Cultural values and traditional views section of the article. At this time, this section talks about general Native American views on these matters. Since this is an article about Cherokee society, you will need to focus the sections there on family, leadership, and so on what the Cherokee believe on these subjects. For example, I'm not sure the Traditional use of masks has anything on whether Cherokee used masks. Anyway, I hope this helps. If you have any questions or concerns about what I've done, drop a line. I also look forward to reading more info as you add it to this article. Best,--Alabamaboy 17:14, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * BTW, feel free to add more summary info to the lead as you expand the article. I didn't place all the info on general Native American beliefs in the lead b/c they weren't focused on the Cherokee but once you fix up those sections they'll also need to be sumarized in the lead. Best,--Alabamaboy 17:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * WOW! It looks fab!  Thanks!  Should I try to learn how to do this stuff on sandbox?  Thanks again. --Bumpusmills1 17:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The sandbox is good. You can also use the preview button to see what your edits look like before saving them. --Alabamaboy 17:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll use both religiously Alabama. You'll never know how much a sincerely appreciate you doing the wiki dance on this article for me.  How did you get that box over on the right hand side?  I love that touch.  I've seen boxes on others userpages telling of the organizations that they're involved with.  How do I accomplish that?  --Bumpusmills1 17:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You'll find a lot of premade boxes and stuff at Template messages. There are also a number of boxes that people make for specific articles (like the Cherokee one). You can cut and paste the code from those boxes to any article you want to add them to (although I'd suggest only putting one or two boxes in per article). You can also modify the boxes by changing their sixes and stuff--do that at the sandbox. Best,--Alabamaboy 17:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Due to vandalism of the extreme nature on my personal userpage, I have protected this page, as well as my own against such vandal attacks. --Bumpusmills1 15:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the vandalism template b/c it doesn't protect the page (only an admin can do that). In addition, this article hasn't been vandalized as of yet and protection can only be given if vandalism is frequently occuring. I'd also suggest removing the warning link from your talk page and this article. The warning sounds too antagonistic and will probably encourage people to vandalize instead of stopping them. Otherwise, best of luck with the edits in the article.--Alabamaboy 16:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Request for mediation
Bumpus, I have posted a request for mediation due to your posting a protection template without admin powers or any vandalism to the article itself, completely ignoring discussion over pieces of an article (substituting your own thoughts for a consensus), and calling BWD a "buttinski" who was stirring up trouble when he claimed you showed too much ownership of the article. Thank you. Staxringold 17:17, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd request that you remove this RfM. Bumpusmills1 is a new user who is still learning how Wikipedia works. Since yesterday I have been working with him to both Wikify his edits and to show him how to conform to Wikipedia standards. So far, he has worked toward every suggestion I've made and thank me for the help, which indicates a willingness to learn how Wikipedia works and to fit within our system. Yes, he still has much to learn but I am optimistic that he will learn. Let's not bite the newcomer by starting something like this. Best, --Alabamaboy 17:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, request moved, but he had a pretty turbulent start with Wikipedia. Staxringold 18:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * All I desire is a chance. All of this in new to me, naturally, and I feel that I've been nit-picked excessively. As for the name I called BWD go to All In The Family and find Archie-isms.  This is where I learned that term, well, actually I learned many Archisms as a kid watching the show religiously every week.  It was not meant to be mean spirited, as you must think.  It was meant to tell him I thought he was not minding his own business, nothing more and nothing less.  We all have our on vocabularies and slang terminologies.  This is the American way.  Get a bunch of Southern boys together talking and have a bunch of New England boys try to comprehend what they're saying.  They get a bit lost because the slang terminology is so very different and as Archie Bunker would say; "ipso fatso". --Bumpusmills1 18:36, 3 January 2006 (UTC)