Talk:Cheshire Cat/Archive 1

Requested move
Cheshire Cat is a proper noun, and is referred to as thus. --Apostrophe 22:08, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Voting

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 


 * Support, as you said, it is a proper noun. Thue | talk 23:42, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Support as above. Rd232 talk 12:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. I agree. [[Image:European-Austrian flag hybrid.svg|20px]] Nightstallion ✉ 13:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Is clearly a proper noun. Another case of Wikipedia Lowercasing Gone Mad (WLGM), methinks! FearÉIREANN [[Image:Map of Ireland's capitals.png|15px]]\(caint)  02:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Perception and Cheshire Cat theory
Anyone fancied writing something about this? I know about it only in very vague and possibly inaccurate terms. Someone much more qualified would be better placed to do this. nayf

Anyone want to do a write-up on why the Cheshire cat was a Cheshire cat and not some sort of other cat? --Dante Alighieri 02:53 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)


 * Seems it was just named after Carroll's home county. If there's another reason, I don't know of it. --Camembert

Should the "c"at be capitalized in the title? --Menchi 21:53 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * That would require a disambiguation page, since Cheshire Cat already exists. :-) Evercat 21:55 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * There probably should be a disambiguation page then. It's confusing to have capitalization-based distinction in article titles, I think. --Improv 17:07, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Might be just me having a weak constitution, but the pic of AM's Cheshire Cat is really disturbing. Would it be overreacting to place some sort of warning with the picture so that younger audiences can avoid being mentally scarred?
 * I think it would. Not even the photos on Holocaust have a warning, and if they don't, why should the Cheshire cat? "Disturbing image" labels have been generally held to be inherently biased, (who decides what is disturbing and what is not?) and so the Wiki tries to avoid them in the interest of neutrality. Besides, the Wiki isn't responsible for the mental health of younger audiences - the parents they should be surfing with are. User:Premeditated Chaos 22:01, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Result
Moved. WhiteNight T 05:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

moved.

Pratchett
There's also a remark about the Cheshire Cat in Pratchett's Mort, I do not have access to the source text, could someone please fill it in? :) --Ouro 09:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. --Ouro 10:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

A Possible project (or sub-project) for Cheshire
Although this entry is not, strictly speaking, one in which the proposed (sub-)project would want any influence over, I thought it might be useful to post this message here.

I think a project or a sub-project (within the UK geography project) dealing with the whole of Cheshire would be a good idea. I have taken as a precedent the project about Cornwall, which any project dealing with Cheshire could hope to aspire to, since this project has constructed Featured Articles about Cornwall-related things. So, I've listed a proposed project concerning Cheshire on Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals. I think it can easily co-exist with WikiProject UK geography. I would not want to diminish or withdraw from this other project. If you are interested in contributing to this proposed project, please add your name to list at the appropriate place. If you think it might be better placed as a sub-project of the existing UK Geography Project, please say so on that project's talk page, here, and let us discuss it. Many thanks. DDStretch   (talk)  01:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Cat's head appearance
The article currently states "it turns up suddenly at the Queen of Hearts' croquet field, and when sentenced to death baffles everyone by making its body disappear, but its head remain visible". However in the book the opposite takes place: the head of the cat gradually appears from thin air. Its body never materlializes in this chapter, hence the ensuing debate how to excute it. Odedee 02:57, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed pop culture section to separate page
I removed the pop culture section to Cheshire Cat in popular culture. It does contain some useful information, so I didn't want to take a hatchet to it, but it was just too big.--Slashme 10:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Trimmed quotes section
I can sort of understand the idea of putting all the cheshire cat's dialogue from the book into the article, as it's not much. I can even stomach the dialogue from the film, silly as it is. But including all the lines from a relatively minor computer game is really going too far. --Slashme 10:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Merger_proposal
the result was merge per outcome below. Protonk (talk) 18:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

It was suggested at the DRV for Cheshire Cat in popular culture that these two pages be merged. I recreated the Cheshire Cat in popular culture, but I'm ambivalent about the move. If it helps the main article and keeps the IPC article from attracting trivia, then it seems like an ok idea. But there are (at this point) no serious problems with the article as is (meaning that it could stand alone for some time). So I'll be neutral. Protonk (talk) 03:15, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I've placed an information note about the proposal on WT:CHES. DDStretch   (talk)  07:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Support
 * —  Dæ dαlusContribs /Improve 04:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC) - As per my argument in the AFD.
 * There seems to be no compelling reason why they should be separate, and it would make sense to combine them. At the moment, "Cheshire Cat in popular cuilture" could be at risk of deletion, and this merger (of it into "Cheshire Cat") would also help preserve the information.  DDStretch    (talk)  06:26, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna step in here and say that if the current version of the Cheshire Cat in popular culture article is nominated for deletion and deleted, I'll eat my shoe. :) Protonk (talk) 06:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I see no reason for separate articles. But this one needs inline citations - see below. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 07:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect. The content fits nicely in this page, and since this article is so small, an entire article devoted to it's pop culture notability is unnecessary at this point. -- Nick Penguin ( contribs ) 22:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Support, when the other article is enough for a single section of this article, keeping them separate seems pointless. Stifle (talk) 13:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * I see no compelling reason for the merger as we have the basis for an expanding and encyclopedic separate article. I could not imagine the new version being legitimately deleted.  -- Happy editing!  Sincerely,  Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 14:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Neutral
 * Protonk (talk) 03:15, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Outcome
I'm operating on "rough consensus" here. I'm going to merge the pop culture article into this one 'after reverting the current article to its pre semi-merge status. I'm going to include it as a copy/paste to a new "In Popular culture" section. Revert me or discuss it here if you think this is totally wrong. Protonk (talk) 17:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

This article
This article contains elements from Cheshire Cat in popular culture. Please see the talk page for historical discussion. Protonk (talk) 18:21, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

B class?
I don't want to step on too many toes, but I'm not sure this article is really B-class. It cites (inline) only the annotated alice, which, while a FANTASTIC source, is just one source (I'm not counting the inline reference to wp). I admit, as a skeleton, there is little to be said that isn't here already, but would anyone be opposed to me dropping it down to C-class until we can cobble together more refs? Protonk (talk) 07:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * In the virtual absence of inline citations I do not think this merits even a C. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 07:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. I think it should be start-class.  DDStretch    (talk)  08:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * On reading it, and after doing a few copy edits, I feel we may have been too generous with even a start class assessment. It needs a great deal of work to bring it up to a barely acceptable level.  DDStretch    (talk)  19:07, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Please, Don't tell me I am the only one that has analyzed the Cheshire Cat with a Cherished Cat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kattroy (talk • contribs) 13:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Original Research?
While an interesting treatise, the bit about being "God of Wonderland" sounds STRONGLY like original research without any cites, so I have tagged it as such. 68.39.174.238 02:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right - how did we miss that before? I removed it entirely; if the writer wants to return it, it will have to be better supported. - DavidWBrooks 11:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The note about the Grosvenor coat of arms is from an article of The Straight Dope, which itself does not cite references. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/9/why-do-cats-purr-why-do-cheshire-cats-grin. I'm no good at wikicode, so I'll let someone else update the reference. Trigonman3 (talk) 21:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Origins: contradiction
The "origins" section seems to be self-contradictory. The beginning of the section confirms that the expression "to grin like a Cheshire cat" pre-dates Lewis Carroll, but the subsequent "church carvings" part is apparently written on the assumption that the expression was invented by Carroll. If the expression already existed then it, and not some carving in a church he used to visit, was clearly the inspiration for the character. HairyDan (talk) 22:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Singing
In the disney version, the Cheshire cat sings something as he fades away, what is it? "Something something 'outgrabe'" is all I know (EDIT) I figured it out. "And the mome raths outgrabe", the final line of the first and last verses of The Jabberwocky. --24.12.166.210 (talk) 22:04, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Also it might be valuable to add that in the Tim Burton movie, the Cat refers to his disappearing as "evaporating" --24.12.166.210 (talk) 21:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Feedback for INFO/COMM 3460
These are a few suggestions for improving the article: Good job so far! im257, Jordan_Wech, abs296, KathyQX94 (talk) 18:45, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * focus more on the presentation of the Cheshire Cat as noted within the novel Alice's Adventure in Wonderland
 * expand first opening paragraph
 * go into the detail of the origin of the Cheshire Cat, if possible find specific evidence on how Carroll actually came about using the phrase/name
 * What is the name of the 1999 TV film?
 * Provide a link to the film
 * Change the section header of "Cross media" to "Cross medium"
 * Clarify the difference between the 1991 TV show and 1999 TV film
 * Describe both the TV film and show in more detail
 * Add the 1999 TV film into the chart
 * 1992-1994 "Adventures in Wonderland"
 * Integrate the information presented below the chart within the chart itself
 * Under the section "1951 film", state the actual line/song that the Cheshire Cat sang
 * much information is repetitive, try to synthesize
 * Change/clarify organization
 * provide citations where it says "citations needed"


 * Thanks for the feedback, classmates im257, Jordan_Wech, abs296, and KathyQX94! While many of the recommendations you list pertain to information our group was not responsible for contributing/did not intend to truly overhaul, it is our goal to make the Cheshire Cat page the strongest it can be--so we will certainly work on the edits you suggest. Thank you again for reading our article so closely. We hope you admire the final look of the page!
 * Hkm24 (talk) 20:20, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

FINAL Group Editing Session by Hannah, Isabella, Abby, and Carolyn
On Oct. 5th, 2014, our group collaborated to put the finishing touches on the Cheshire Cat article.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS A major change that should be noted here is that the numerous subsections (listing Cheshire Cat references in areas like film or art) were reorganized to better reflect 1) the content they're found in, and 2) their prominence within that context (evident in the order with which the subsections appear listed). The new major sections created to host these subsections can be found under the introductory title, Allusions to the Cheshire Cat Character in Media and Non-Media Contexts, and are called: We believe that these three major sections better introduce the vast array of references available regarding the Cheshire Cat character, and do a great job of illustrating how the character--while most widely associated with Disney or Lewis Carroll--is popularized in so many different areas of entertainment and study.
 * Screen Media Adaptations of the Cheshire Cat Character
 * Print Media Adaptations of the Cheshire Cat Character
 * Other Media and Cross-Disciplinary References to the Cheshire Cat Character

Hkm24 (talk) 19:08, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

CHALLENGES
 * One major challenge that we faced was finding appropriately licensed pictures to include in our article. Because much of the article discusses film and TV references, we want to include pictures of the Cheshire Cat from those adaptations. However since images from film and TV are protected by copyright, it was very difficult to find appropriate pictures. We tried adding a picture to one of our charts that was part of Wikimedia commons, but it was removed by Wikipedia editors.
 * Another major challenge that we faced was that much of the information that had been previously included in the article was un-cited. We struggled to find appropriate citations for this information because we wanted to include it in our article while still maintaining the reliability of an encyclopedia.
 * Another challenge we encountered was not making lots of small edits to the article. We tried to edit portions of the article in the sandbox rather than the actual article, however it quickly got difficult to remember what we had included in the actual article and what we had not. Carolynella (talk) 20:12, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

REMAINING WORK NEEDED Hkm24 (talk) 20:24, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Although our group is proud of its contributions, we feel that the community of editors to whom we will leave the page should be aware of our suggestions for further action:
 * Find missing citations (i.e. Cheese moulds section)
 * Find additional pictures without copyright issues to add to sections without image/graphic components
 * Further develop Origins section and Business section

Proposed New Content
For our Cornell University class project, my team plans to add to each of the existing sections. We hope to find some more information regarding the origins of the character and history significance (in contexts unrelated to the famous Louis Carroll tale). We plan to give the page a design overhaul, adding charts, quotes, images, and other embedded features. We plan to do a comparison of the different cinema representations of the character.

We will reach out to the six existing Wiki projects that are interested int he Cheshire Cat page, and solicit their insight in our page development. Some existing sources are Cheshire Cat Grin - TV Tropes DisneyWiki Cheshire Cat Cheshire County Profile  Psychological Study on Cheshire Cat LogicPrinceton Cheshire Cat WikiOrigins of the Cheshire Cat (Abbysonn (talk) 19:28, 9 September 2014 (UTC))


 * Hey . Thanks for taking this on as an assignment. Just as an FYI, open wikis like tvtropes or specific wikias are usually not accepted as reliable sources. The tvtropes page is a good starting point for works which included the cheshire cat, but be careful to not cite claims on wikipedia directly to it or the disney wikia. Hope you have fun w/ the assignment and feel free to ping me or leave me a message on my talk page if you want some help. BTW I'm not affiliated w/ the course, just some person who has this page on my watchlist. Protonk (talk) 19:35, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey Thank you for the insight! My group and I will keep that in mind!(Abbysonn (talk) 19:54, 9 September 2014 (UTC))
 * - please move the educational assignment template to the top of the talk page, above all the sections. Thanks, LeshedInstructor (talk) 02:04, 11 September 2014 (UTC).
 * - thanks for moving the educational assignment template to the top of the talk page. However you should not move the section, only the template. Please move this section to the bottom of the discussion page. Thanks, LeshedInstructor (talk) 16:40, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
 * easy enough for me to move it. Protonk (talk) 16:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I wrote an article which was merged into this one, which may have additional sources for you (I'm not sure if they're integrated into the article at the moment. Protonk (talk) 20:31, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, we will definitely look into it! Isabella.krell (talk) 15:55, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Sources we plan on using, and for what:
 * We plan on using the Cheshire Cat's characteristics and applying them to humans, to help flesh out sections pertaining to the character's social and [pop]cultural influence. This specific journal article looks at facial expressions that resemble that of the cat. (Isabella.krell (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC))
 * An interesting reference to the Cheshire Cat is introduced in this journal article, which uses an encounter between Alice and the character as a metaphor while applying a "psychopathology label to terrorists." This finding furthers our efforts to break down the Cheshire Cat's cultural impact and transcendence into fields unrelated to the literary/film world. (Isabella.krell (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC)) Hkm24 (talk) 00:26, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Similarly, the Cheshire Cat has been used out of its traditional context to help define a scientific phenomenon: what is known to the world of marine ecology as the "Cheshire Cat" escape strategy. This pertains to the behavior of the "coccolithophore Emiliania huxleyi in response to viral infection." The name is an obvious gesture to the Cheshire Cat's tropes of disappearance and mystique, and is explained by this scientific article: Hkm24 (talk) 00:26, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The Cheshire Cat's trademark smile is used to model a concept in another niche topic area: this time, economics, urban planning, and energy policy. A study uses the cat's image to coin the moment when "planning replaces competition." When this happens, "all that is left of the competitive element of the model is the free market rhetoric: ‘the grin of the Cheshire cat.’" See referenced abstract: Hkm24 (talk) 00:26, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The Cheshire Cat is often used as a metaphor in the sciences to describe many phenomena. The Cheshire Cat Effect refers to a binocular rivalry when one eye is viewing a moving object makes it so a stationary object becomes invisible.
 * This website gives a better explanation of the Cheshire Cat Effect. It goes in to detail about who to run an experiment that will demonstrate this binocular rivalry. (Abbysonn (talk) 17:00, 18 September 2014 (UTC))
 * Another example of the Cheshire Cat being used as a metaphor in science. This particular source suggests that catalytic RNAs can be looked at as Cheshire cats because they dim out part of their complex structure and leave only certain sharp parts of the ion in view. (Abbysonn (talk) 15:43, 24 September 2014 (UTC))
 * The Cheshire Cat is a phenomenon in quantum mechanics in which a particle and its property behave as if they are separated. We plan to explore why this phenomena was given its name as well as other scientific Cheshire Cat references
 * In an attempt to increase the science section in this page, we found more articles that use Chesire Cat as a scientific term. (Isabella.krell (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC))
 * In this particular article, they refer to the Cheshire Cat as an escape of a scientific strategy in response to a viral infection. In the abstract, the author explains that "These Cheshire Cat dynamics release host evolution from pathogen pressure and thus can be seen as an opposing force to a classic "Red Queen" coevolutionary arms race." (Isabella.krell (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC))
 * This BBC Article describes the "quantum Chesire Cat" phenomenon, which happens when a particle separates from one of its physical properties. (Isabella.krell (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC))

Breakdown of Team Contributions:
 * Talk page: Hannah, Isabella, Abby, and Carolyn to propose new content, and cite applicable research to support new content's relevance and significance
 * New content includes (but is not limited to) a Science section, a chart within the "Adaptations of Alice..." section, supporting images across all sections, and improved layout design for the article as a whole. Hkm24 (talk) 02:16, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Science section: Hannah, Isabella, Abby, and Carolyn to compile research, write copy, and add text to article. Isabella to add to science section (Second half of Quantum Mechanics paragraph and Schrödinger's Cat). (Isabella.krell (talk) 02:07, 2 October 2014 (UTC)) Hannah to copy edit and add images.
 * Chart: Hannah, Abby to compile research, write copy, add text to article. Hannah to graphically format information. Isabella to link content to supporting Wiki pages within the chart, as well as gather and embed images. Hkm24 (talk) 02:16, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I added the behavior chunk for the Adventures in Wonderland section of the chart. I plan to re-watch the Tim Burton version before bed for research! Abbysonn (talk) 03:09, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * We are missing pictures of the cheshire cat for two of the movies in our chart. We tried to find pictures with the appropriate release however we were not able to find one on Google Images. Originally, we did find two images with what we thought was the appropriate releasee, however when we added them to Wikimedia commons, they were removed. Ishtiaque and LeshedInstructor we are still looking for a resolution to this issue and would appreciate your feedback and help. Carolynella (talk) 20:39, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Physical Look of the Page: Isabella to get rid of extra white spaces on the page, to make it look more physically appealing. (Isabella.krell (talk) 02:07, 2 October 2014 (UTC))


 * Good Work, , , . The article Cheshire Cat is now looking a lot better. Here are a few suggestions to make the article look even better:


 * a) First complete the table in the "Cross media comparison" section. You have mentioned a number of movies in the table, which need appropriate citations/link. I think you are adding text in the 'behavior' column from your own experience, which is totally fine. However, you can also check websites like IDB, or articles in Newspapers to see if you can get supporting materials.


 * b) It is always helpful to summarize the information presented in a table. You can do that before or after the table. if you present a comparison, you may also want to tell why that comparison in important, what message does that convey, etc.


 * c) One of the images in the table is taken from Disney's website. Could you please check and make sure if that photo has any copyright issues. You can also check the copyright condition of the other pictures used in this article, too.


 * d) I think the second infobox needs a little more clarification. I guess this is a painting of Chesire Cat. If so, why don't you add a corresponding subsection with a heading 'paining' and write more about it? It may also be useful to find some more information about the painter and the painting. If it is not talking about a painting, then please try to explain what it is.


 * e) Compared to the amount of content this article has in its body, I think the introduction text is too little. You may want to add a few more lines to indicate Chesire Cat's appearance, impact, and effect in science, movie, culture, literature, etc.


 * f) Make sure you made the connections that Protonk suggested if possible. You can request Protonk to see if he likes that.


 * e) There may be interesting information about this character in Disney Wiki. If you haven't already checked that website, please do. Also, Google Scholar search on this topic may give you some interesting information that you may want to bring in.
 * IshtiaqueAhmedCornell (talk) 02:22, 2 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm happy to answer questions or offer help if need be. One general thing I will suggest is to take a look at the structure of what you're adding and see if it can be refactored to make the page look better in general. Meaning right now the page is mainly a long list of the appearances or references of the Cheshire cat and it's possible that adding more (from the sciences and humanities) will put more verifiable info on the page (that's good!) but contribute to the sort of litany style (that's bad!). One way to avoid this is to summarize various references/invokations of the cheshire cat across a number of different sources. E.g. if we have multiple uses in science where the metaphor comes in because something appears/disappears at will, try and group those together and talk about that feature of the cat being used as a metaphor, rather than just listing both. This is really hard to do without getting into original research (that's one of the reasons why the page looks the way it does) but it's possible. It's a little easier to do this with metaphorical uses than with literal references in works. Ideally what this page should be eventually is a general discussion of the cheshire cat and a summary section for another article List of media uses for the Cheshire Cat (or something like that), but overhauling the article like that may be beyond the scope of your course. :) Protonk (talk) 14:19, 2 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you IshtiaqueAhmedCornell and Protonk for your thorough and helpful feedback. My group will be meeting early this upcoming week to discuss the suggestions for improvement that have been communicated by you as well as our classmate contributors, and I am looking forward to incorporating your recommendations into our final edits. IshtiaqueAhmedCornell: We will investigate all image components contained in the article and remove/replace any that have questionable copyright. We also intend to spruce up any existing infoboxes created prior to our involvement, so that they are more relevant and informative. It is important to us to refine the Cheshire Cat article to the point where all components (textual or otherwise) merit space on the page rather than contribute to clutter (as some classmates noted, some of the information is redundant). Protonk: We appreciate your perspective on the flow of the article; I agree that weaving the various instances in which the Cheshire Cat is referred to in Science throughout a general discussion of the character's magical qualities would read much better than the listy format the article currently boasts. However, as you note, this may be challenging, but not because of the effort it will take to synthesize bullet points into paragraph form, but because of the dilemma surrounding which format is truly more appropriate for the article. I personally believe that a Wiki reader searching for info about the Cheshire Cat may benefit more from a series of sectioned lists than a large mass of text, especially if they are using Wiki to recall a certain detail or confirm a certain fact (i.e. "What was that theory named after the Cheshire Cat again?") as I so often do. That all said, my group will discuss all feedback and use it to improve the article to the best of our ability. Thank you both again for taking the time to provide insight!
 * Hkm24 (talk) 20:14, 4 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi Ishtiaque thanks for your feedback. After discussing as a group we will be creating a Disney section of the article and be including quotes and information straight from the movie. However we will make sure not to use Disney Wiki as a source since Protonk mentioned that its not a reliable source. Carolynella (talk) 17:36, 5 October 2014 (UTC)