Talk:Chetniks/Archive 1

Chetniks vs. Partisans
Chetniks were against partisans because partisans wanted to overthrow regular monarchy, as king's army their duty was to kill pro comunist's , like evrywhere in world regular forces are against revolutionaries during revolution. Sometimes those activities were in the same time when germans were in batlle agains partisans.

Mladic as chetnik and Belgrade ruled by chetnics is nonsense
Mladic was not chetnik, he was against chetnik uniforms in army and chetniks because chetniks tried to burn his mother alive , because he was from comunist family. His Uniform is not chetnik uniform but uniform from first world war serbian army. Belgrade was never ruled by chetniks, but by pro-german goverment of general Milan Nedic.

Copyright permission
Copyrighted text on this page used with permission. --Nikola Smolenski, 15:36, 24 Sep 2003

Comment
Ratko Mladic was not a Chetnik? Are you serious? Can you see that image in the article showing a Chetnik in a uniform? That is the exact uniform you can see on Mladic on numerous photos. The same hat, same symbol on the hat. And not only hat. He was a Chetnik, because he wore chetnik uniform and he obeyed the Chetnik ideology, proposed in a written statut by Draza Mihajlovic where he puts extermination of minorities and expansion of Serbian teritories as the main objective of the movement. The movement is also led by some sectarian ideologies of Orthodox church (cult of St. Sava, similar to occult believes of Nazis). And you didn't have to say you are from Berane, because it is obvious, because that town was a craddle of Chetnik movement in Montenegro. As for your grandfather, he probably was together with Nazis when they executed my granfather's cousin, because he was killed on Jasikovac, near Berane, by the joint forces of Nazis and Chetniks, a day before the town was liberated by Partizans. So I guess he died during the liberation "honestly" defending interests of the Third Reich. Berane was mostly under Italians during the WW2, who were considered the less of three evils. The other two were German Nazis and Serbian Chetniks that colaborated. Ustashas never had a big role in Montenegro, but that was not the case with Bosnia, where Chetnik forces and Ustashas commited a genocide against Muslims and that hand full of Jews which lived in Former Yugoslavia before the War. As it is finally mentioned in the article, Belgrade, under the rule of Chetniks was the first judenfrei capital in Europe. Way before all German and Polish cities. But Chetniks never bothered to take them to the concentration camps. They simply exterminated them. Considering the part of the article where it is mentioned that Chetniks saved some American soldiers, that is a unique case. Let me tell you that there were also some good hearted Nazis who saved Partizans during the WW2. But from that case, it is obvious that it is a part of desperate strategic move of gaining some cheap points towards the end of the war, when even Chetniks new that Nazis are going to lose. It certanly doesn't change the fact that Chaetniks colaborated with Nazi Germany, and were more gruesome and sadistic in torturing, killing and exterminating the civilian populations of Former Yugoslavia. The misfortune is that the movement is still alive and they kill torture and rape (by the ideology of "burned land") whenever there is a chance. Many of the Chetnik financial supporters live in the USA and South America. It is a shame Simon Wisenthal hunted only German war criminals. -- Well, yes, Ratko Mladic wasnt a chetnik. Belgrade was never a Chetniks ruled (what a stupidity) and was 2nd Judenfrei city after Vilnius, Estonia, just because Jewish community was quite small. Judenfrei policy was boosted by off course Germans whose occupation zone Serbia was, and not by Chetnics - which were without any authority at the time. So "dont mix grandmas and frogs" ... Yes, Chetnics collaborated, Ustashas, some Albanians ... and many other small puppet forces and regimes, no better one from another. Chetnics are alive only in mind of insane, and in some veterans. And its just used iconology, like Croats did with Ustase regime, to boost nationalism, not a reality thing. Wisenthal did not chase Chetnics because he delt with antisemitism. You dont know a fact, and your article will remain just as sign of human stupidy and missinformation. What you can see today at Ravna Gora is mostly drunk old man which are fractioned among many ideas. And this article about Chetnics is quite good. --194.106.188.16 01:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The article above is so extremely wrong and convaluted that it's hilarious to even take it seriously! First of all, even if Mladic was a Chetnik or had a uniform of a Chetnik how is it relevant with Chetnik idealogy? Which "your" version is extremely wrong in the first place. The Chetniks were a nationalist group, they were for the king, and at least the continuing centerpiece of a "kingdom of Yugoslavia". As for "greater Serbia", there is no living evidence to support your rambling of such a movement. The Chetniks wanted to perserve the state of Yugoslaiva not annilate it as the Ustaha, Handjar Division, or SS Skanderbeg's wanted to do. Second, what cult of St. Sava are you babbling about? There isn't any such cult just like your imaginery preminitions of a "greater Serbia" in World War II! Furthermore, please clarify for me where did the Serbs commmite Genocide in World War II--a total oxymoran since they were the ones being killed by the Nazi's themselves. The Chetniks were a resistance-gurilla force that didn't have an organized, planned, or central base to sort out prisoners or set up a concentration camp in the first place. How could they? They faught the Nazi's, Ustasa, and Partizans on three different fronts at the same time. How could they possibly have had the time to commit genocide while trying to fight a war such as this and be somewhat successful? Third, going back to your "fact" about Muslims being killed off by Chetniks? On whose account do you base this? Muslims were allied with the Nazis and Ustasha during the war. How could an ally of the Nazi's legitamtely fight against another alley---it would not make sense because technically if you faught with the Nazi's you agreed to their cause? Fourth, "Good hearted Nazi's" are you insane! The Nazi's had a gold dubblon prize for anyone who captured Tito or Mihajlovic how could they be good hearted to them? In addition, that just defeats your point about Chetniks collaborating with the Nazi's; if they collobroated come the Nazi's still killed 100 Serbs for every German dead. How come the Chetniks weren't recognized by the Nazi's as allies, yet they were still hunted by them, if they were colloborators you don't kill anyone off who helps you. Fifth, did you forget or do you have permanment amnesia as to what Jasenovac symbolized? Let me remind you the most brutal, sadistic, henious, evil, and degrading concentration camp equal to Austwitz itself! Run by our friends the Muslims and Ustasha, by way of the SS Skanderbeg Division as hosted by our Albanian friends! I'm sorry sir, your a disgusting and evil individual who wants to erase any history by reinterpreting, no, lying and manipulating it without any tangilbe and clear evidence to your backing. And sir, I challange you to come up with any evidence that shows the complete and unambigious proof contraty to what I wrote about. In other words please demonstrate and show me where the Chetniks were formal collaborators, set up concentration camps, commited genocide against the Muslims or anybody else during World War II, and while Partizans were the good the old boys of it all during this escapde in history. Please sir don't pollute no troll this article more then your doing it now.

Byzantine Dragon 10:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC) You appear to know a lot about Chetnik uniforms. Perhapps too much

Comment
I have never read something so true in my life! This is the best artical about Chetniks ever written. I must tell the others that Ratko Mladic is not Chetnik, so I don't know why do they say they got something with Srebrenica. My gran-granfather was killed in Chetniks, and I can speak in his name, he fought for King and Fatherland not for Grate Serbia. Greatings from Berane, Montenegro.

Comments from 194.152.224.194
I beg to differ. While the information on the page is largely accurate, it ommits several facts, such as the fact that the Chetniks were the Serbian equivalent of the Croatian Ustase, with the only difference being in that they were not granted a puppet-state by the German leadership. During the course of WW2, the Chetnik formations engaged on numerous terror campaigns, operating throughout the Yugoslav territory, and waging war mostly on the civilian population as they feared open engagements with the Partisans.

'''Excuse me, what are you talking about? The Chetniks being the same as the Ustasa during World War II? I don't think so. The Chetniks were resistance figthers without a recognized state; they were seen as enemies of the Third Reich; they saved over 500 American Airmen; they were supported by the West; and they saved anyone their own people from complete destruction as mandated by Pavelic et al. I didn't see the Chetniks setting up a Jasenovac style camp nor did they avoid fights with Partizans quite to the contrary. Instead of cooperating with the Chetniks against the Nazi's, the Partizans just sat there and refused to fight the Axis whenever a fight was raging between both groups. More like the Chetniks would do all the dirty work while the Partizans just stayed behind and became parisitically attached to any Chetnik encounter while attacking them at them (the Chetniks) at their weakest! '''

Oh Please, the Partizans saved around 790-800 allied airmen, and even hundreds of POWs, chetniks only saved 390. Chetniks fought in Sutjeska battle on the german side, as well as the attempt to capture Tito, chetniks were helping the germans at the time! How do you explain that?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.95.114.241 (talk) 01:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Well i dont agree that Ustase and Chetniks were the same but Chetniks did terror campaigns. Hatred among Croatians and Serbs was huge in second world war and prier to it. Just becouse Chetniks didnt have concentration camps doesnt mean they didnt kill Croatian civilians. You can compare Chetniks with Ustase with theyr agenda which was to kill Croatians, and restore Yugoslavia, in which Croatians, and othere nations were dominated by Serbians. In other words Yugoslavia, was bigger then Greater Serbia, but with the same control, in which Serbians rule. Only major difference was that Greater Serbia deniad any other nationalty and Yugoslavia didnt. Yugoslavia befoure Tito was Serbian hegemony and oppresion over other nations. Moust of what you say is wrong anyway. "The Chetniks were resistance figthers without a recognized state" Go back and check earlier in discusion Chetniks vs. Partisans. They were seen as enemys in the begging and laiter went on axis side. "They saved over 500 American Airmen." Totaly irrelevant and expectable if they were on allies side in the begging. Yes they did same thing as Pavelic but maiby not in such big nummbers. And about partizans just sitting around, do i evan have to go into that. Its such stupidity when all the other facts sad on a contrary. Partisans got more and more people, and axis thought that they were theyr biggest treat which later lead to allience with allies. Yeah and i am shure that when partisans fought axis, theyr dearest friends Chetniks must have helped them. Lol. redicules. Think a little. Think.

Also, regardind my entry on modern-day Chetnik movement. The general reference to all Serb forces as Chetniks during the recent Balkan conflict isn't even worth a mention - that is propaganda. However, during the Serb uprising in Croatia (1990 - 1995), there was a number of Chetnik units operating in the area, or at least units with Chetnik symbols. After the siege of Vukovar, the units entering the city carried a large Chetnik flag and sung traditional songs - this much was seen on CNN and BBC newscasts. Additionally, paramilitary units led by Arkan, did most of the civilian terror campaigns in both Croatia and Bosnia. He was, in turn, under the command of Vojislav Seselj, who has openly called himself 'a Chetnik duke'.

'''Sure you have Arkan if anything, but how did he have this Chetnik philosophy in the first place? He acted oppsitley to actual Chetnik idealogy. Finaly, "Chetnik" songs as you heard were traditional Serbian songs before the Chetnik movement even started. Get your facts straight! ''' Finally, Vojislav Seselj was now nominated in Serbia's general elections. One can hardly say that the movement is dead, and that no links to it can be found in the present.

-- User:194.152.224.194, 14:36, 11 Jan 2004

Yeah your right about Seselj and that the movement is not dead and thats sad. At least we(Croatians) are willing to admit that Ustase were bad people anlike Serbians who think Chetniks as "Royal army", and not drunken and crazy psycophats that killed any Croatian and Muslim civilian that they can. Just becouse they didnt have theyr own killing kamps(like Ustase), and killed only a small groups of Croatians and Muslim at the time doesnt make them any better at all.

Two-headed white eagles (called “kokarda” by mistake, originally kokarda was three-color sign in colors of flag) are national symbol of Serbs – not a symbol of Chetniks. Their traditional symbol was skull with bones. During the last wars in Bosnia and Croatia, terms “Chetniks” (for Serbs) and “Ustasha” (for Croats) were misused.

Sorry, you made a mistake... Chetnik's cooperated with Germans to save as many Serbian lives as possible (you have it in the text) because we had lost a lot of people in previous wars - only during WW1 we one third of Serbs had died. Where are Balkan Wars, and 500 years under Ottomans rule? Do you know that Germans feared us so much, that they ordered to execute 100 Serbs for every dead German, and 50 for every wounded? That they slaid around 2100 students from high school in Kragujevac? Despite Germans, noone was so cruel as Ustasas. You can se it from the pictures. While Chetniks have pictures of Draza and other commanders, Ustashas have pictures with heads of Sebian men. They were savages. During the WW@ they killed about 500000 Serbs. During the last war about 100000 Serbs from Croatia died. They burned my village. Twice. People say that Draza also ordered execution of many people. But during the war, he was continually asking Allies to send as many observers as they can. Can you tell me why would he do so, if Chetnik's commited so many crimes?

What a load of rubbish. Chetniks cooperated with Germans to save as many Serbian lifes as possible???!!! Well if you hadnt harresed us in pre-titos Yugoslavia, Ustase would have never got into power, and they would never kill serbians, but jews and romas, like in any other nazi puppet gowerent. So Ustase got in power to save Croatian life, and to get free of Serbian hegemony and oppresion. During the last war about 100000 Serbs from Croatia died??? WTF?? You invade my country and then you say about war casualties. You must be joking. And how many Croatians did you kill in last war. Its like americans accousing Vietnam for theyr war casualties. It would just looks redicules. So please try not to look redicules. Thx.

Rubbish croatians and muslems and all oether serb haters tried to make chetniks look like nazis to hide their own nazi history and hide the fact that 80% of partisans were serbs and almost all chetniks (who were the first in europe to start to fight nazis) ... in ww2 in bosnia 750 000 serbs were killed, 60 000 croats and 70 000 muslems (including those dying as soldiers of third reich) so tell me who is bad here and for information that nobody mantiond partisans killed a lot of people (civilians) in the ww2 so that argument cant be used against chetniks to prowe that they are evil nazis, as said before they didnt have concentrations kamps like ustaše ... and by the way in last war serbs didnt attack croatia but croats began war aginst minority that tried to defend it self becouse they didnt want to go again in jasenovac ... its same if germany would attack jews in poland and say they attacked us ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.41.88.119 (talk) 21:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

At the end, I must say that these texts are so realistic, they have so much truth in them, that I were speechless while I was reading. Wikipedia team, keep out the good work, don't let them corrupt you.

Greetings from Grat Serbia's republic of Montenegro


 * It is interesting to notice that in 1931 Bosnia and Herzegovina census there has been 1,028,139 Serbs and in census 1948 there has been 1,136,116 + 70,000 Serbs (which are living in Vojvodina from period 1945-48)= 1,206,116 Serbs.
 * If Ustaše has killed 750,000 Serbs in Bosnia like you are saying can you please explain us how is possible that census number of 1,206,116 Serbs in 1948. If your words are true for me only possible solution is that they have been breeding like rabbits ???--Rjecina (talk) 22:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * At the time Alija Izetbegovic was a 'Serb'. And many others like him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.65.19 (talk) 14:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

graphic photo - need warning, maybe removal
The photo of a person's throat being slit is a bit graphic (despite its low quality). Additionally, previous contributions - he's a problem user and has made repeated inappropriate edits to related pages. If there's some consensus to return to the page, it can be done, but I'm still opposed on the same grounds that images of the Berg beheading were not included in the main text of the article. --Abqwildcat 08:36, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC) none. --Shallot 13:08, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Don't think that the picture should go. Nikola 22:26, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Double standards ?
Hmmm….it seems to me that you have a problem with conflicting versions of interpretation of controversial issues. I wont bother about a “problem user” tag (anyway, I got much more serious and ominous labels during Communist rule in ex-Yugoslavia). But- I ask two questions: a) how on earth do you have the temerity to enter into a dispute you, evidently, don’t know anything about ? How do you dare ? b) as for the very nature of graphic violence the photo conveys- why didn’t you react in the case I mentioned ? When you mention the Berg case- I agree. But it only points to the lack of standards in wiki editing: so, if this photo goes, all other suggestive photos with similar content go. I’ll be the first to agree. And not only this. Not only photos, but lies in the text that are proven to be lies (for instance, unsubstantiated propaganda trash spread by a Nikola Smolenski, full of virulent hatred and falsities against Albanians, Croats and Bosniaks)- all this, not only abhorrent images, will have to go to the dumpster. Double standards are just that: quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi. Do you subscribe to this adage ? Mir Harven 14:31, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Moved from &
&#268;etnici Soldiers of Draža Mihajlovic who were known for brutality during the WW2. Also, rebel soldiers in Croatia and Bosnia and Hercegovina, during the War in the 1990's, known for ethnic clensing of non-serbs.


 * This was POV and written by an anonymous, and since deleted. Another anonymous (from 195.178.32.50) called it "bullshit". --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   23:34, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, but despite that 200000 Serbs died in last war. Did Chetnik's killed them?

image removal
Marjan, please stop removing images without explanation. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   22:15, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Igor too now. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   08:17, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The next alias/anon that blithely removes a picture will be summarily banned. I've tried the carrot, let's try the stick. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;

recent mess
The article is currently messy because it duplicates the stories in subsections. It should probably be merged back, although subsectioning doesn't sound like a bad idea per se. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   22:51, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Should be deleted
This article should be deleted, for it is not only heavily one-sided, but also insulting to hundreds of thousands of people, victims of Chetniks.

Chetniks were no better that the Fascists in WWII. They were only on paper "King's army" while in fact they were a bunch of mercenaries heavily connected to nazis.

As for wars in yugoslavia. This article glorifies war criminals, and people convicted for ethnic cleansing, such as Vojislav Seselj.

Damn straight, the Chetniks were also racist, even the king was rascist, he called my people "South Serb" which is offensive to my people. The Chetniks are mercenaries, and they carried out racist killings with Momcilo Djujic as one of them! Hell, watch 10th squardron of navarrone. SMRT FAŠIZMU! SLOBODA NARODU! BRATSTVO I JEDINSTVO!! DA ŽIVEE NAŠA JUGOSLAVIJA!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.95.114.241 (talk) 02:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Prove it ! You have complekses and you try to make serbs look bad to hide yout nazist history, and first of all seselj is not convicted, he is an political prisonaire on trial because he dared to speak the truth.


 * Broken articles should be fixed, not deleted. Please adjust whatever you see is wrong and we'll work from that. Also see the page history where the old revisions were. For example, this one from 14 Nov 2004, before some anonymous user made a large round of edits. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   11:47, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am a proud cetnik i still wear the Kokarda and sajkaca. the Cetnici were proud and honorable fighters who protected their country from the brutal Nazi and Ustasa reigime. i wear karadzic and Draza on my key chain and i belive in the fact that karadic is tottaly innocent and nothing happend at Srebrenica its all bullshit made up by the united states. SRBIJA DO TOKIJA Kažeš četnici su branili svoju zemlju?? Šta je Srbija do sve Tokija isto tako "njegova" zemlja?? ''Nothing happed in Srebrenica?? So, nothing happend to my cousins brother, too? Come to Srebrenica, ask about what really happend! Do not speak about it like you were there.''

Serba do tokija is a joke invented to amuse people and people like you misuse it, as for Srebrenica, that vilage vas under protection of un but that didnt stop Naser Orices army to kill 2300 serbs (inclouding women and children), thay sad first that there were killed 300 000 muslems in Bosnia today we know that 100 000 people died inclouding serbs and croats, thay sad first that 15 000 muslems were killed in Srebrenica when everybody saw that that is imposible thay sad there are 7 - 8 000 dead, now after 13 years of diging with help of satelite photos they found 2500 deat of wich most were soldiers killed in battle, of caurse there were alsow killed boys  from age betwen 18-15, because any boy older then 15 years is considert "military able" (able to cary guns), this was crime and is sad that it happend but those soldiers (most of victimes) who were killed I dont have simpaties for them because they are nothng but ruthles killers ! And if you want to have 8 000 man from age of 15-49 years you would nead 50 -60 000 population which srebrenica doesnt have not eaven whit all vilages together ...

The intro
There have been some attempts by anons to improve it, but insertion of claims or facts which are substantiated much much later in the article is quite an edit war magnet, so I reworded the intro a bit.

That said, the intro should probably be expanded, so that a reader who is reading another article and just wants to learn the basic facts doesn't have to read the whole article to find them. Zocky 08:18, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Forged pictures
After the WW2, communist regime in Yugoslavia fabricated “proofs” of chetniks’ collaboration with Axis powers. Sometimes, you may spot false pictures very easy. For example, at the front cover of the book that talks about chetniks’ collaboration, there is a picture that shows a German officer with chetniks. Check the forged picture

By mistake, communist forgers haven’t recognized British and American uniforms at the picture. However, the original picture from February 1944 has survived. At original picture, there is no German officer. At both pictures, there are British colonel William Bailey and American major Walter Mansfield. Check the original picture

Ideology
Some ethnic Croats, Slovenians and Muslims also joined Chetniks forces. Most of them were democratically oriented Yugoslav patriots, anti-communists and anti-fascists. They didn’t fight for Greater Serbia but for liberation of their homeland, Kingdom of Yugoslavia:
 * General Mihailovic with Zvonko Vuckovic, comandant of 1st Chetnik Corps. Mr. Vuckovic was an ethnic Croat – loyal officer of Royal Yugoslav Army.
 * Mr. Mustafa Mulalic, one of Muslim officers in Chetnik’s headquarters, together with General Mihailovic and Mr. Stevan Moljevic (only three of them are in uniforms)
 * General Mihailovic with Muslim leaders in Bijeljina.

Added NPOV tag, obvious pro-Chetnik bias, also a mess generally
Subject says it all. This article for the most part has pretty extreme pro-Chetnik bias, particularly concerning the Chetnik atrocities in Bosnia during the 1990s (as in: it glosses over them). It even mentions war criminals by name, without reference to the fact that they are, well, war criminals (e.g. Vojislav Šešelj Serb radical denies war crimes).

Bizarrely, somebody tacked on some text in the "links" section (???) that goes the exact opposite way, flatly accusing Chetniks of being war criminals en masse. While a much more historically supportable point of view, it is mis-placed in the article, and provides no evidence, and so is silly and rather worthless.

Come to think of it, this article just needs to be killed with an ax.


 * During the civil war in Bosnia, the terms “Chetniks” and “Ustashi” were missused by Muslim-controlled Bosnian government, to refer to Serbian (VRS) and Croatian (HVO) forces. Serb forces in Bosnia made some atrocities – but that was VRS (Army of Republic of Srpska) - not Chetniks! By tradition, Chetniks were 100% guerilla forces, so it was silly to use same term for army with hundreds of tanks and heavy artillery. VRS was everything but not guerilla.

And what about all those people dressed like chetniks during the war in Croatia and Bosnia???--(GriffinSB) (talk) 20:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Communist and anti-Serbian Bias
The anti-Chetnik parrts of the article have a clear bias toward the history written in SFRY textbooks and spoonfed to naive children. One should treat those parts of the article with the same credibility as something written in a Soviet textbook regarding 'American Capitalist Decadence'.

Those who equate the Ustase with the Cetniks fall for the idea of treating present day name-calling of Serbs by Croats and vice-versa as a timeless phenomenon when it isn't.

The Ustase were helped by the Nazis, the same group that created Auschwitz, Dachau, and with the Ustase's help, Jasenovac et al.

The Chetniks were the Royal Yugoslav Army in mourning for the occupation of their land by anti-monarchist forces (Nazis and Soviet-backed Partisans). The Chetniks are rememebered by more erudite Americans and Britons as a force against Nazism, and valiant warriors.

This aticle is BAD!
I'd like to mention, "cheti" and "chetniks" were use in the Balkans long before IMRO (Bulgarians) to start the fight against Ottoman Empire. Number of "chetas" came from Vlashko in middle and late 19th century and attack Turks in Bulgaria. Also many "cheti" were form in Bulgaria proper as well. Just to mention, Hristo Botev, Stevan Karadzha, Hadzhi Dimitar. During Bulgarian uprising in 1876 100's of chetas were form, were the most notable was "Hvyrkovatata Cheta" ("the flying cheta") of Benkovski. Also the name "cheta" came from the verb "count" in central Bulgarian dialects. 68.183.199.202 17:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC) Nikolay Sarmadzhiev

If someone go to this page he will not find anthing but loads of Serb, Croat and other nationalism. Can someone write this aricle without pushing his natonalist (Serb, Croat or any other) bias?

It's utterly, irretrivably POV in its current form, almost racist. --estavisti 19:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The introduction is also wrong, not mentioning WWI and Balkan Wars chetniks. Nikola 10:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This article is peace of shit. You have not bean objective at all. Especialy the introduction is not true. Ratko Mladic and Slobodan Milosevic are comunists so there is not any posibility that they are chetnics. Yo should clean this introduction an this pucture or I will destroy it for all times there.

SLobodan Milosevic and Ratko Mladic were not communists,thats nonsense,he was probably high when he wrote that.Milosevic was anti-comunist

THE REAL DEAL
The Croat Ustase and Serb Chetniks were both with the Nazis...same thing...only that Croats were slightly stronger and better organised, maybe better educated... BUT Most Croats and Tito included were in the Partizans, as where most Serbs etc... The Ustase and Chetnik were a minority and shouldnt be glorified here or anywhere. Hitler laughed at all Slav people (Serbs-Croats) and said he would use them as slaves. When my great grandfather told me the story of ww2 he said, these soliders...be it Ustase, Chetnik, Partizan or Nazi...they would look for kids or men to join them and if you didnt they forced you to.........so for the most part, most people didnt get a choice of who they surved..... Today there are no more Ustase or Chetniks ...only wanabes...who are mislead into believing these people were the good guys.......trust me only TITO was good..and the Partizans they gave freedom to Yugoslavia..and freed us from Austia Turkey etc.............anyone who doesnt know this is brainwashed nationalist......... Sure there was some odd balls in all parties, such is life, you cant blaim a race for what a few hunderd did.......... The Balkan people are good people

Comment
While there are some points of view-issues in this article, I believe it has suffered far worse from the anti-chetnik camp, as opposed to the pro-chetnik camp. One of the revisions from mid-November of this year seemed pretty fair in both acknowledging the positive and negative aspects of the group.

Furthermore, it seems as though a great deal of edits that have gone down were extrordinarily poorly made, such as stating that the "previous intro was made by Croat propaganda" or adding an overly-dramatic paragraph about how the chetniks were evil at the bottom of the links section. While this may be a contested issue, there's really no reason to continually throw around edits based on your personal speculation. I've noticed the section about the airmen rescue is often deleted and then restored, for example.

Hahahah better educated, u dont nned an education for killing people... All the Chetnik's officers have finished the military school cos they were the regular army and the Ustasass were just murderes. It was all Tito's propaganda that the Chetniks collaborated and killed other people wich in not true. The Chetniks were the regular army of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia not just of Serbia and everyone was welcomed to join in. They weren't a fascist organization as Tito said cos everyone against Tito was a fascist. Cheers

Trouth in introduction ????
This article is rasist, an it is realy shame for some normal encyclopedia

This introduction is realy not truth. I would tell you the definitive facts that you can find in any real historical book
 * 1) Chetniks did colaborated officaly with Italians because they had at that time same interests,(Italians didn't wanted Germans to control all the Balcans)
 * 2) Chetniks din't colaborated officaly with Germans, but some chetnik vojvodas did.
 * 3) Chetniks never colaborated with ustshas because at that time that was imposible. At that time in Croatian controled arrea Serbs have been planed to be killed, cleaned, or converted to cathoilycism. So even if they wanted to do colaborate with ustashi they could't do that.Ustashi have bean their biggest enemy.
 * 4) Slobadan Milosevic never wanted to rehabilitate chetniks, actualy his Socialist Party wery often called their political enemies chetniks (especialy his wife Mira Markovic), its easy to find it on the inteternet because it wasn't long time ago. Chetnik rehabilitation came in Serbia after Milosevic  was moved avay.

There is one objective article about chetniks: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/partisan_fighters_02.shtml

You should read this and few more articles an then write objective article about them.


 * Branko Stojanovic, Belgrade, Serbia And Montenegro

Arkan and Chetnik insignia
"During the Yugoslav wars, several paramilitary formations, including those by Željko Ražnatović "Arkan", wanted by Interpol, boast Chetnik insignia and some of them committed crimes against non-Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia."

As far I know, Arkan's formations never used Chetnik insignia. They boasted historic insignias of Kingdom of Serbia (pre-1918). Thus, reference to Arkan should be removed: "During the Yugoslav wars, several paramilitary formations boast Chetnik insignia and some of them committed crimes against non-Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia."

no 1 who started yu-war? serbs !!! 4 wars they fought and result kosovo going towards own statehood.

This Article, Chetnik
I have depised this article since I first saw it. About time someone said something. A lot of articles on wiki pertaining to Serbs are complete lies! Anti-Serb racists!!

Completely Screwed
I would advise that we tear this article down. Take all information that is not sourced and POV and remove it. Right now, the Pro-Chetnik bias is so strong that the article barely mentions that near the end of the war, the Chetniks were essentially a nazi auxillary force. Terrible. I shall be bold and do so in the next few days. Please don't revert without discussing or leaving some comment. --Irongaard 05:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

About the current edit war
To the anonymous user who continues to assert that Chetniks included only Serbs and Montenegrins and killed many people in Hercegovina and Dalmatia: If you have something to say, just discuss it first on this page. If your comment is legitimate, and can be backed up with references, we can find a place for it within the article. Otherwise, you're wasting your time. --Mihovil 15:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Chetniks in Bosnia and Croatia did make crimes against Bosnian Muslims and Croats during the WWII. It should stay, but someone should give references about that and. Maybe some sentence which would say that "they killed many Croats and Bosnian Muslims" would be OK. May someone put it somewhere inside of the text? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 12:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

There must be number of victims who are killed by chetniks. I read in chetnik report vhich is send from Pavle Đurišić (chetnik high officer) to Draža Mihailović. "10.01.1943. My units in southeastern Bosnia and Sanđak burned 33 muslim villages, killled 400 mulim mans, 1000 womans and childrens". In february "killled 1200 muslim mans, 8000 old mans, womans and childrens." In october 1943. chetniks burned village Gata in Dalmatia and killed 100 mans.

what u just said here is pathetic and completely biased, muslims did not exist in Yugoslavia until the 1970s they were considered either Croats or Serbs or Bosnians, there was no spliit in religion until the 1970s, although i forget the exact year and date, rendering what you just said completely false.

PS this article is overflowing wtih contradictions and false statements, i suggest that it be frozen and almost completely re-written.


 * Give to us sources for that. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 15:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Mans, womans????--TheFEARgod (listening) 14:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Odd
As of today's version there is no mention of the rescue of the downed Alied airmen by the Chetniks. Yet there is the mention of the Merit Award given posthumonusly to Mihailovic. If I knew nothing of this topic and read this article I would wonder why it was that Truman awarded this metal to the leader of the Chetniks. It is apparant that WWII revisonist are alive and well. (annymous)

Also, the part: ''Some ethnic Croats, Slovenians[citation needed] and Bosnian Muslims also joined Chetniks forces. Most of them were democratically oriented Yugoslav patriots or monarchists, anti-communists ánd anti-fascists. They didn’t fight for Greater Serbia but for the liberation of their homeland, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia''.

Can give us a feeling that ALL the rest of the Serb Chetniks fought for a Greater Serbia.--TheFEARgod (listening) 14:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the following as their is no proof offered:

In the areas of the Serbia Krajina which included Bosnia and Croatia, a bitter ethnic war was fought. The ruling Chetnik regime had proclaimed as its goal to exterminate one third of the Croats, expel the other third and convert the rest to the Orthodox faith. Chetniks fought both the Ustaše and Partisans in these areas, and retaliated for the crimes against Serbs in the East Bosnia villages mainly populated by Bosniaks (who they saw as ones allied with the Ustashe), and also those populated by Croats.

this is typically false mythology that has been put out by Croats and Bosnians in the 1990s, this is unheard of until then, i suggest that someone either sources this information, or it should remain omitted. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia experienced an ideological war in WWII, not an ethnic one barring the activities of Croatians, this entire section needs to get re evaluated as it is filled with propaganda.

Explanation
Chetniks and the Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland are two related, but separate topics. Shoving both into one article is ridiculous. --estavisti 05:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The article as it is now is useless. Yes, chetniks existed before WWII, but WWII royalist guerrillas were  formed from pre-war chetniks, called themselves chetniks, and are the most commonly known kind of chetniks. I think the article should be remerged. 17:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The article was useless before as well. Chetniks of the modern era have very little to do with the Yugoslav Royal Army in the Fatherland, which was a multiethnic monarchist force. We should sure improve the two articles, sure, but to remerge them would be like merging League of Communists of Yugoslavia with Socialist Party of Serbia. --estavisti 17:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There are no modern era chetniks, there are just groups who informally use the name, or who are called that by other people. Zocky | picture popups 17:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article should cover the various usages of the term. The Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland is a very specific topic and should not be lumped with all the flotsam and jetsam that comes under "Chetniks". --estavisti 18:20, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You simply can't divide this subject like that:
 * The original usage, to mean "guerrillas", is too general for an article, and warrants at most a sentence in the intro
 * 19th century chetniks in Herzegovina, early 20th century chetniks in Serbia and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia are the part of the same continuous story of the same organization, as WWII chetniks.
 * Not all WWII chetniks were  under the command of Draža Mihajlović, and some branches of the pre-war organization openly collaborated with Germans.
 * Mihajlović's chetniks neither began nor ended the war as the "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland". Mihajlović was named the commander of the army in fatherland some time after his organization was founded, and the army in the fatherland was disbanded and merged into the national liberation army by royal decree in 1944. Chetniks, incuding those that fought under Mihajlović after that were no longer "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland".
 * The modern use of the term on Serbian side is regularly about WWII chetniks and their modern ideological followers. The Croatian and Bosnian usage, calling all Serbian forces chetniks, also stems directly from WWII iconography.
 * At least since 1918, chetniks have had a distinct ideology, which is common to all the chetniks mentioned above (apart from the croatian/bosnian usage). It is royalist,  authoritarian, nationalist, in short, right wing, which explains their position in WWII. This again means that there is a common story to be told.
 * In short, when the article becomes too large, it will probably make sense to split off some information into separate articles, but as it is, the split only removes the central subject from its correct title. Zocky | picture popups 18:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, the various groups calling themselves Chetniks are related, but not the same. You say not all Chetniks were under the command of Draza Mihailovic. Surely this is just another reason to have a separate article about the JVO? The term JVO is used to describe the ogranisation that existed in WW2, because that is what it was called for the longest period of time, no matter whether it was founded under that name or not.

The usage common in modern Serbia, both by "followers" and "detractors", is incorrect in a historical context, as both groups misunderstand the JVO. I agree to an extent about the "Chetnik ideology", however Yugoslav nationalism and Serbian nationalism were NOT the same. If the JVO were a Serbian nationalist force, they wouldn't have had Slovenian, Croatian, and Bosnian Muslim members. The article as it stood was trying to conflate wildly varying historical groups into a single narrative. Seselj and Mihailovic have about as much in common as Muhammed and Osama bin Laden (to use a poor analogy). --estavisti 21:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * JVO did have some non-Serbian members and officers, but they were overwhelmingly Serbian, and nowhere in non-Serbian areas did they have mass support of the population. The situation was not entirely simple, but saying that Serbian nationalism is a large part of Chetnik ideology is accurate. In any case, JVO was just a name of the main chetnik branch for some 3 years. The same forces were called chetniks before, while, and after they were called JVO, and they are the central subject that should be covered under this title.  Zocky | picture popups 00:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I personally feel that the article should not have been split, but instead, improved and clarified of the points you are bringing up Estavisti. I would think most readers would expect to read about "Chetniks" of WW2 in this article? // Laughing Man 20:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, jebi ga. I expect to read about the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina when I type in "Bosnia", but I don't. Just because the pseudo-historical experts of the Balkans expect to read something, doesn't mean they're right - that's why we have disambiguation pages. // estavisti 21:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You've got that parallel exactly the wrong way around. Bosnia and Herzegovina is a wider subject then Bosnia, and you can sure read about Bosnia in Bosnia and Herzegovina. In exactly the same way, you should be able to read about JVO in the article on the wider subject, i.e. Chetniks. Zocky | picture popups 22:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the parallel was to show that when someone types something in they shouldn't always get exactly what they expect. The JVO should be included here, in one summary paragraph with a link to the main article. // estavisti 23:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Regularna vojska
All the mentioned persons, chetniks or not, had one single goal - Greater Serbia. And all this talk about chetniks defending the Serbian people from Ustashi terror? As I am informed chetniks exist from the beginning of the 20th century(Balcan wars, and after 1918 the official army of Serbia(Kingdom of Yugoslavia - but that was as Serbia in its expanded borders at that time) and Ustashi yet in the 1930s. The communist partisans and the Ustashi had the opposite goal but every of them in their own aspect - destroying Kingdom of Yugoslavia. By the end of WW2 the partisan army counted about 150,000 men(and women) and in such a large and populated state (say 18 million people at that time) they were a privileged minority who took control over everything. The communist Yugoslavia was an irony from the very moment it started. There were 150,000 people and their families which agreed with it totally, and what about the other 17 million? Until the 1970s and 80s the Yugoslav People's Army was a true Yugoslavian army but then started the "serbisation" of the army which led to a horrible rate of almost no Slovenian/Croatian/Muslim/Macedonian officers. On the other hand there was more Montenegrian officers than Slovenian officers and Slovenians are 4 times larger nation. A nation that counts some few hundred thousand lives is nothing if it doesnt have a protector(in the case of Montenegrians that was Serbia). The answer to the question how Mladic, from a hardcore Yugoslav communist officer, became a pro-Serbian general with large affections to the Serbian Orthodox Church I myself do not know but the fact remains that Karadzic and Mladic are the worst butchers of the Bosnian war. One who orders the execution of est. 7000-8000 Muslims in Srebrenica (if someone thinks I am lying there are video records of that) clearly has issues. Or goals? And many killed Muslims are as well as Croatian (western and central Bosnia and Herzegovina mostly) also Serbs (eastern Bosnia mostly, with some exceptions) in ethnic origin. It's not just that he ordered to kill people. He ordered to kill his own people. As a communist general, he was stationed in Knin, Croatia. It is an interesting coincidence that Knin area is a chetnik neighbourhood (was in WW2 1941.-45. and before it when Momčilo Đujić, the chetnik duke, returned from Serbia with chetnik insignia, was in 1990. again when it was the center of Serbian rebellion in Croatia) even today - the city itself not, with only 20% Serbs in it, but all the surrounding villages are 100% populated with Serbs. The war in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was fought within the borders of imagined Greater Serbia, and when Serbian tank brigades were leaving Belgrade flowers were thrown at them. In 1989. and 1990. there was such Serbian propaganda and meetings (some of them even had even more than million people in.ex. on "Vidovdan" 28.6.1989.(15.6.1989. in Serbian calendar) which was not seen even in the first Yugoslavia. A Serbian propaganda and glorification of "great" Serbian history(no objective historical achievements of the Serbian nation, with the exception of Emperor Dušan and his medieval Serbia), continous trying to show the Serbs as a victim (what is completely ad absurdum funny with them being the largest nation of Yugoslavia). Yugoslav communism in the late 1970s and 1980s was becoming the rule of Serbs, especially after Josip Broz (communist president of Yugoslavia, Croat by nationality) died. Serbs held all the crucial positions in the government, on local levels all around Yugoslavia, in the army(general and local) and the things that happened were just a logical next step. Yugoslavia was, as I have already said, such an irony. Nobody wanted it. The Serbs wanted that war, to create Greater Serbia, and the Croats needed it, to liberate themselves from Serbian rule with a communist mask.

Rewrite this article and use a non-Serb and non-Croat historian to do so! ==

Article as is, is useless...

the discussion forum is full of propaganda from both sides (Croats and Serbs)..I suggest the articlebe deleted and rewritten by non-Serb and non-Croat hostorian, preferably by someone with no ties to the two countries. !!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lusich (talk • contribs) 22:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Why don't you try to improve it yourself? --PaxEquilibrium 21:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I took out the purely non-factual information that had a very distinct anti-Serb tone to it and was mainly based on oppinion. They include some comparisons of Mihailovic's chetnik detachments with Nazi regime, which is clarly a biased view and not fact, and i cleaned up a few other things. However, the article is mostly unchanged. - Aleksandar V.

yep, must be deleted! some things correct, but mainly everything messed up!

Yeah i agree that this article is bad and should be wrote by non-serbian and non-croatian. This article is much worser then the ones about Ustase, althou that one has flaws as well. I mean if i wanna here anyside propaganda ill just go to croatian or serbian wikipedia. when i come to english wikipedia i would like to hear truth, and not articles like this one. Alsou modern era of chetniks is totaly wrong. "Their ideology was based upon the old Greater Serbia plans (Nacertanie by Ilija Garasanin), who proposed a furious fight against the Croats "until our or your extermination" ("do istrebe naše ili vaše") in the middle of the 19th century." First Nacertanie didnt proposed a furios fight against the Croats, becouse if you look in there we didnt exist!! In Nacertanie it sad that all the people that spoke shtokavian dialect were Serbs. Alsou it wasnt only against Croatians but Muslims, Makedonians and Albenians as well.

How can yous tell what is truth and what isnt when you didnt grow up there or know the full story. First of all truth can only be told by either serb or croat who grew up over there at the time. In reality nearly every country in eroupe have had commited war crimes during world war 2 whether it be Nazis, chetniks, Ustase, Yugoslav partians or the soveit union, the list goes on. Reality is that there was no difrence between axis powers and the allies. But i can tell you one thing the Ustase were about the Croatian indepedence restoring of Tomislav old Croatian kingdom. The chetniks were a group who wanted to create a greater serbia. Now the difrence is that Ustase were defending themselves while the chetniks were agressers who bruitly murdered Coats under their rule, during world war 2,during Communist Yugoslavia and during the croatian war of independence. --Marbus2 5 13:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
Given the obvious reasons, I added an NPOV tag to this article. Jeremy Tobacman 16:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Jeremy, if the article is to be improved it would be good if you could specify the reasons for the POV tag. Otherwise, I think it should be removed. CheersOsli73 13:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I added the tag because of the extensive, vitriolic disagreements on this talk page. Though those disagreements seem to have quieted, I don't perceive them as yet having been resolved.  Jeremy Tobacman 15:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * A POV tag is used to indicate a specific problem in how the content of the article is presented - if it is presented in a non-neutral fashion. Content disputes, controversial content, and so forth do not (necessarily) indicate a POV problem. --Cheeser1 (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

White Eagles
The White Eagles (paramilitary) article is pretty good: it is succint, detailed, neutral, and well-sourced. However, it does not mention the word Chetnik. This omission is difficult to reconcile with the linkage in this article. Can someone clarify, ideally with references? Jeremy Tobacman 16:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that the meaning of the word Selfish in the dictionary should be changed to A GREEDY SERBS WHO WANTS MORE LAND. They always want more. --Marbus2 5 17:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Copyright violations
Beware, something weird just happened: an IP transformed this article into a version that was a copy paste from http://koz.vianet.ca/jack5.htm and an other IP signaled the copyright infringement to WP:SCV. I am quite puzzled to be honest... -- lucasbfr talk 07:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

it is not a copyvio, but a recreation of parts of an eariler version that was apparently used at that site. check the history of this article. the text was composed for wikipedia originally. jebali vas i cetnici i ustase. Moj djed je bio cetnik ali samo zato sto nije volio komuniste i da brane svoja sela od ustasa. Kakva velika Srbija i gluposti. Pa kad je rat poceo (91) rekao je 'Jugoslavija je mala i siromasna zemlja jos kad se iscijepamo vukovi ce nas rastrgati i nista od nas nece ostati'.

Chetnik war crimes
Osli, any reason as to why the war crimes paragraph is removed, despite it being sourced by three references? The Spanish Inquisitor 12:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Spanish Inquisitor, sorry, I was about to enter my explanation on the Talk page when Wikipedia experienced access problems. What I wanted to say was this:

I agree that the current text in the War Crimes section is not satisfactory nor referenced at all. However, to avoid an edit war back and forth between various factions, I suggest that we delete the War Crimes section until we can agree on a text. Before even going ahead and suggesting texts, I think we should find some reputable sources that we can agree to use for this section. Otherwise we'll inevitably end up in an edit war based on differing sources we can't agree on. I've added my suggestion below. Please add to the list:Osli73 13:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Encyclopedia Britannica online

Merge from Yugoslav_Royal_Army_in_the_Fatherland
To my surprise, I discovered the Yugoslav_Royal_Army_in_the_Fatherland article, which was an apparent POV fork. I merged some of the contents from there to here, and fixed the redirect. The resulting version is not my endorsement of any statement therein; I only superficially took an overview and picked up the paragraphs which seemed better and/or more complete. The article is in a bad shape, with zero serious inline references, with story going back and forth, ping-pong of nationalist POVs, and I would be grateful whoever would like to seriously address the problems. I am aware that the article is possibly worse after the merge, but I gather that it wasn't good anyway. Duja ► 15:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

POV
People who don't understand (or don't care about) writing NPOV articles should get the fuck off Wikipedia. Everybody can spot biased articles anyway and will simply discount them, so you're not actually achieving anything. Jonathanmills 21:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Serbian fantasy
Photo of Chetniks with german friends will be in this article because this is right place for that. Only in fantasy of Greater Serbia supporters Chetniks have been force of good. For them it is normal that good Chetniks kill 9000 muslims civilians in february 1943 in Foča-Čajniće region (this is only 1 example) Rjecina 22:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea yea we all know you just want to spread anti-serb propaganda. This article is about chetniks and there shouldnt be pictures on chetniks posing with germans when the majority of chetniks fought against the Nazis. Paulcicero 22:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Tell me where have been this great battles after 1941 ? Rjecina 22:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You tell me why Draza Mihailovic was exonorated of collaborating with the germans by an independant us comission?

But since i know how you nationalist croats are, we can make a compromise, you can put a picture in the collaboration section Paulcicero 23:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Do not worry we will fight on other places, other articles. Example for that is Serbs of Croatia. Serbia kings or despots ruling Slavonia ??? You are really learning myths in Serbia. Rjecina 23:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea and in Croatia you only speak the truth? Thats why you needed PR-agencys to help spread anti-serb propaganda during the warPaulcicero 23:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 1 little mistake I am from old Yugoslav school. I do not read new (1988 - 2007)history books from Serbia or Croatia. For anti-serb propaganda help has not been needed. You have done very good job in Bosnia. Rjecina 23:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yet you still used them, as far as your reading is concerned im surprised you read at all considering how ignorant you seem to be. Paulcicero 23:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The photograph should not be in the article (especially not as the only photograph) as it shows chetniks in atypical light. Chetniks were primarily opposed to Nazism. Nikola 21:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes during WWII they have been friends with Partisans and enemy of Germans. It is funny to read Serbian fantasy. Rjecina 22:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You are funny rjecina, you have only read communist propaganda and now you think you know everything about chetniks Paulcicero 22:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Little data about Chetniks from english book "Noel Malcolm: Bosnia - a short history" which is supported by UK (UK has given this books to library in Croatia):

Problem solved. I read english, russian and italian :)) --Rjecina 22:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Stevan Moljević Serbian lawyer from Banja Luka, political director of Četnik movement in 1943. He is writing in february 1942 :" Serbian land need to be extended all the way to Dalmatia, and that there should then follow the cleansing (čišćenje) of the land of all non Serb elements. The things to do would be to send offenders on their way. Croats to Croatia and Muslims to Albania or Turkey"
 * Foča-Čajniće region in august 1942. 2000 muslims killed by Četniks under command of Zaharija Ostojić
 * Foča-Čajniće region in february 1943. 9000 muslims killed by Četniks (source- Dedijer and Miletić: Genocid nad muslimanima.
 * Wow! i really have to congratulate you on your language skills! And also what neutral writers you found to show how bad chetniks are - Antun Miletic and Vladimir Dedijer!! Wooow! Paulcicero 22:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is all data from book "Noel Malcolm: Bosnia - a short history". I know, I know this book is POV like UN 91st plenary meeting 18 December 1992 or any other resolution which speak that Serbs have done something bad. --Rjecina 22:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all Malcolm got those facts from dedijer and miletic (not neutral), secondly our discussion is about if your pictures are representative of the chetniks Paulcicero 22:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * My personal thinking about Chetniks is that they have been inside Serbia neutral force which wait end of the war. In Bosnia and Croatia they have been evil force because of civilian killings (Croats and Bosniaks). War against military forces of NDH and partisans have been OK but killing of civilians... In the end they are very similar (on NDH territory) to Ukrainian Insurgent Army which has killed people of other nationality. Now you know my thinking about Chetniks. --Rjecina 18:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well not all of them. Yeah, there were many different Chetnik squadrons. The one in Serbia that worked for the collaborationist regime of Milan Nedic ("safeguarding" north Kosovo and the south of Serbia by fighting the Partisans), there were the Montenegrin ones (Montenegro was controlled by the Chetniks throughout the majority of the war) who liberated Montenegro and later collaborated with the Ustashas and German Nazis, the ones who liberated Serbia in 1941 went to hiding (they were the ones you referred to), there were the very good Dalmatian ones who collaborated with the Italian fascists and fought the Ustashas and (sadly) some Partisans, then there are the Bosnian ones that slaughtered innocent Bosnian Muslims in easter Bosnia and Herzegovina (the toll goes up to 80,000 dead, although that's probably an overestimate) and there were the "Serb Krajina" ones that mostly protected the Serb population of the Bosnian and Croatian Frontiers and in effect saved them from extermination by the Ustashas (more credit than the Partisans for that one), but who're also known for several bad 'retributions' to the Ustashas. etc... --PaxEquilibrium 21:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge from Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland
I don't know anything about the subjects, but they seemed similar enough that I proposed the merge. I hope others will decide and carry out the merge if you all decide it's a good idea. Thanks, delldot   talk  14:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

There are 2 powerful arguments why the title of this article should be "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland":

1.It is the official name of the movement 2.There were various Serbian movements in WW2 which named themselves "Chetniks" user:BoDu —Preceding unsigned comment added by BoDu (talk • contribs) 11:34, August 28, 2007 (UTC)


 * Whatever you do, please don't do copy and paste moves. Refer to How to fix cut and paste moves for more information. --Joy &#91;shallot] 14:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

refs
this article needs more refs // laughing man 02:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Enough Already
Don’t you think this has gone on long enough; instead of factual information there is a lot of slandering going on here! Obviously people who are narrow minded and cant get over the past or who have not experienced anything related to this voicing what they think is the truth. You can voice your opinion but there are civilised ways of doing so not in a bias way or just because you have some built in hatred from friends or relatives who have hammered this into your minds since you where young! Life’s to short as you can see on this discussion, to many people have died already because of what I ask you? Property? Religion? Dignity, pride...? Are not your mothers, daughter’s sons, wives and husbands more important? Everyone should have a right to defend themselves and there family, however would it not be better to start and I mean all of us a process in which these things do not happen again. There are lots of foreigners out there who would like nothing better than to see us self destruct for one reason or the other. Too many external influences in history have shown to instigate these types of evil doings. Do we retaliate every time someone does something bad to us? Let me tell you it takes a stronger person not to fight or argue and I am sure you will agree. I am shocked through my whole life I heard all of this rubbish and am I the only one who thinks “get over it". For all those women, children and men that died the only thing I wish for is to bring them back doesn’t matter where they are from so they can enjoy their lives with friends and family just like you!!! This will not happen but I can remember and make sure my children dont follow a bias view on things. And yes I have lost them too in the these wars thats why today I stand with a smaller version of what our family were like. Anyway tired of it all what a waste one of the worlds most beautiful places along with people who are capable of many terrific things...... what a waste.

I second aforementioned motion for complete cessation of the nonsense going on here... However, I feel the need to add something: in Serbia Chetniks are regarded, almost unanimously, as WW2 war criminals that acted against their own people. A pile of evidence exists that will corroborate my claim, since Chetniks engaged in senseless violence all over Sumadija region (where I'm from), extorting food, drink, live stock, money... from farmers, slitting their throats for being "communist sympathisers", raping young women... Personal example: my maternal great-grandparents were severely beaten (with a wooden stick) after they had bought two blankets from German soldiers, since Chetniks considered it an act of treason! My great-grandmother barely survived and never fully recovered... So, please don't come here to spill your national(istic) frustrations and tell me how you were the only ones hurt by them - they were a large bunch of hoodlums (save gen. D. Mihailovic and his close associates, they didn't even recognise the name Chetniks) who wreaked havoc in WW2 Serbia and did harm to its own people almost as much as Ustashas did to Serbs in Croatia. And Arkan, Mladic,... (insert you favourite Serbian war criminal here) are just the continuation of that type of behaviour, not a certain policy or ideology - the latter were just pretexts, excuses made in order to justify their despicable actions in the eyes of primitives who supported "revenge against the Turks (Muslims/Bosniaks) for their five centuries of terror in Serbia" and/or "revenge against the Croats for their crimes in Jasenovac", as if revenge ever did any good to anyone... Petar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.240.5.209 (talk) 08:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

This article bears only hints of truth, for the most part it is a fictional depiction of the Chetnik movement during the second world war. It is biased and the picture of Chetniks with Germans is ridiculous. Good luck to who ever wrote this, try and include some facts for those who may not be so educated and base their sole knowledge of the Chetniks on this article. Think about it before you write your next wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.174.250.87 (talk) 14:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Well....
Maybe i'm wrong, but in this text it has been worked more on presenting the chetniks as a royal king's guard and guerilla than war criminals and ideologists for ' Great Serbia '. This article needs more of the latter, since it WAS the main purpose of creation of the chetniks: making all south Slavs Serbian. Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.232.137 (talk) 00:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Prince Paul
"his new government established even harsher racial laws than Prince Paul had enacted and immediately established three concentration camps for Jews, Gypsies and others." Could anyone explain me what racial laws were enacted during rule of Prince Paul, otherwise that section should be deleted Luka Jačov (talk) 00:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Chetniks or Chetnicks?
What is the offical word for Cetnići in English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.49.203.123 (talk) 17:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Chetniks, I belive --Sloba (talk) 09:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Ill-defined
This whole article is not about chetniks but about the King's Army in Fatherland and later references to it. The term chetniks is much older than BOTH world wars and is much broader. It originates from the times when Serbia was still part of the Ottoman empire and it designated local village militias that formed ad-hoc in face of some imminent threat such as bands of Ottoman deserters bent on plunder and rape. The earliest mention of the term I found is in biography of Miloš Obrenović by Vuk Karadžić where he mentions a group of "Serbian chetniks" harrasing the retreating Ottoman army after the Battle of Ljubić of the Second Serbian uprising (1815). Probably similar groups existed in other Serb-populated parts of the Ottoman Empire until it's withdrawal from the Balkans in the aftermath of the Balkan Wars, but in the early 1900s the term in Serbia applied to something else. It now designated state-sponsored and organised paramillitary groups that were being sent to the Ottoman Macedonia with goal to wreak havoc with the Ottoman authorities in preparation of the Balkan wars. The commanders were army officers, members were volounteers (both from Serbia and recruited locally - some even being Albanians). Bulgaria and Greece also sent in similar detatchments and, oddly enough, on one occasion Serbian and Bulgarian groups clashed in Ottoman Macedonia. During the Balkan Wars and First World War they continued their paramillitary role, often filling the role of scouts and advance guard, sometimes being used like regular army units, but were most famously used as diversants - conducting bombing attacks on Austro-Hungarian officers in occupied Belgrade for instance and heading the Toplica Revolt against the Bulgarians in occupied Serbia. One of the two leaders of the uprising was Kosta Pećanac, later a notable Chetnik commander in World war 2 - he was flown by an aircraft from the Entetne-controlled territory around Salonika to coordinate the uprising with the main Serbian War effort on the Macedonian front. I'm not entirely sure if any chetnik units existed in the interwar period, but the idea was certainly revived when the danger of German attack appeared in World war 2 - two batallions being purposfully formed in Bosnia with goal to wage guerilla warfare and stage an uprising, but they mostly scattered after the German invasion. However the idea materialised when a group of officers willing to fight on led by col. Mihajlović formed the core of a resistance group and took the name "Chetniks".

Veljko Stevanovich 21. 11. 2007 17:30 UTC

I had contributed 3 video's about Chetnik - Nazi collaboration
Someone ereased it. ((GriffinSB) (talk) 11:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC)).


 * Such links don't seem to fit our external link policy. I also wonder about the neutrality of such changes to the article. --Cheeser1 (talk) 19:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Neutrality.They are video's with picture and no comment.
 * What's not neutral about pictures???((GriffinSB) (talk) 01:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)).


 * Your addition included an objectionable "see also" that was subsequently removed, as well as links to three youtube videos, which are not acceptable external links. The content actually does contain a lot of non-neutral POV commentary, and many pictures that do not provide the appropriate sourcing or context. --Cheeser1 (talk) 01:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Here are the qoutes and cites from books of German soldiers serving in Yugoslavia during ww2 and cites of documents of German-Chetnik relations. I also have pictures of the documents about cooperation between chetniks and Germans.The original documents are in Belgrade Museum.

 It's a Serbian website ,so it is NPOV. Every quote or cite has the source under the text. ((GriffinSB) (talk) 21:07, 24 December 2007 (UTC)).


 * Perhaps you need to learn more about Wikipedia policies. Being Serbian does not make you NPOV. Please check NPOV policy. Furthermore, that is a blog, and is not a reliable source in any way (and neither is youtube). --Cheeser1 (talk) 21:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It's all in old books,that i cannot find online.

I'll do my best to find them and to scan the pages.It will take quiet some time.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 23:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Uploading scans of copyright works is illegal. Please cite the book (if it is a reliable source, and be sure to present only information that can be verified in this book, phrased without bias. --Cheeser1 (talk) 04:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

War crimes during WW2
Chetnik's war crimes should be mentioned. And especially ethnic cleansing and Great Serbia ideology. They have killed around 100.000 muslims in Bosnia and Serbia during WW2. So, I'll put here a sources (someone has asked for them previously) of these facts:

- Genocid nad muslimanima, Vladimir Dedijer, Antun Miletic, Svjetlost 1990. - Srpski zlocini naz Bosnjacima muslimanima 1941.-45., Dr. Semso Tucakovic, El Kalem 1995.

In these books you can find these facts documented, with a list of nearly all victims. There is also a book of Smail Cekic, but I don't know its name.

I hope someone will put these facts ... (right now it seems that this article was written by pro-Chetnik author) --Ibrahim, Sarajevo

1992 - 1998
There isn't any evidence to substantiate these claims and as such I simply had to remove most of the section. Uninformed or misinformed people might actually believe the statements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drkabaci (talk • contribs) 15:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of sentence refering to Karadžić and Mladić
"The Chetnik propaganda during these wars was facilitaed by Slobodan Milosevic and governed by war-time radicals Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic."

Mentioned persons were not politicaly radicals i.e. they didn't belong to Radical party (Srpska radikalna stranka). If this was meaning of "radicals" above it should be removed or changed.--Čikić Dragan (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes,we can simply call them fascists.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 01:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleting of USHMM pictures
During summer of 2007 there has been sort of agreement about which USHMM picture will be in this article, but from May 2008 SPA account Deucaon is again and again deleting USHMM pictures. Our question is if USHMM picture are for this article which is having pictures from 1908 and picture of Chetniks leader in WW II. If wikipedia is NPOV there is need for having picture about colaboration of Chetniks forces with German forces because we are having pictures about Croatian Ustaše from that time period and USHMM has recieved all Chetniks pictures from Belgrade Museum (in Serbia capital). In modern Serbian revisionism Chetniks has been forces of good and because of that USHMM pictures which are showing different situation are very important for neutrality of article--Rjecina (talk) 07:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Flag and infobox
P.S. If this is about the "honor of the Chetnik movement" or something like that, be advised that a NPOV must be maintained while editing. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 15:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, it was established long ago that the black flag was the flag of the Chetnik movement. The flag of the Chetnik movement is not the flag of the country it owed its allegiance to (Kingdom of Serbia, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, etc...).
 * As for the infobox, the "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland" is simply the long name for the ww2 manifestation of what is known in English sources primarily as the Chetnik movement (per WP:COMMONNAME). Just like "People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia" was the full name of the Yugoslav Partisans. The infoboxes must be merged because this is the one and the same movement. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 15:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Picture
Picture doesn't prove anything close to collaboration. Following the same logic I could put the picture of Mladic and Clark as proof of collaboration between Republika Srpska and NATO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deucaon (talk • contribs) 00:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Similar to you I think that this picture show only Ustaša which is standing between dead people. It is not showing killing. Because of that this picture doesn't prove anything close to killing so why many user from Serbia demand that picture must be in all articles about Ustaše and NDH ?
 * Maybe is time that I start to write serious. During WWII it is not possible to find pictures of friendly meetings between other patriotic, anti-nazi forces and germans. Maybe Chetniks are special or maybe they are collaborationists but this picture need to be in article. USHMM is having 3 pictures about Chetniks and Germans which are gift of Belgrade Museum so if there is any problem with this pictures we need to ask Belgrade Museum.--Rjecina (talk) 15:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The picture does not prove anything, but these references from Britannica, the US Library of Congress and published sources do (David Martin, Ally Betrayed: The Uncensored Story of Tito and Mihailovich, (New York: Prentice Hall, 1946), 34...). I assure you that the Chetnik collaboration with the Axis is not at all controversial: it is well known and founded on firm historic evidence. The picture is in accordance with Wikipedia policy, its removal is not. --  DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 15:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

A couple of anonymous guys dressed in Chetnik garb with a German soldier is not proof of collaboration. Rjecina wrote that an Ustasha standing next to two dead Serbs is not proof of Ustasha war crimes, well there are pictures of Ustasha decapitating people, operating concentration camps and Ante Pavelic shaking Hitler's hand. If you can get me a picture of a Chetnik leader shaking Hitler's hand or operating in a concentration camp then I will take that as proof. If not then the picture is not proof and it has no relevance - Deucaon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deucaon (talk • contribs) 15:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * OMG, do you read the posts: we're not trying to prove anything with the picture, but with references. The picture is not meant to prove anything, the references are. The fact that the picture does not prove anything is not cause to remove it: it is not meant to prove anything. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 15:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit-warring
I've protected the page. Now, what's the problem here? Mackensen (talk) 10:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Simple, User:Deucaon keeps removing pictures of Chetnik soldiers with Axis forces, stating that they're "not relevant" and that they do not "prove anything". I'm not saying that they do, but how are pictures of Chetniks on the Chetniks article irrelevant? Furthermore, the User insists on undoing the merge of an unnecessary infobox into the one at the beginning of the page. The one at the beginning of the page is about the Chetniks, and the merged one is about the Chetniks during WW2. His reverts are probably due to the fact that the latter infobox incorrectly used the Yugoslav flag instead of the Chetnik one, and because the infobox uses their full name ("Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland") instead of their common short name ("the Chetniks", or "Chetnik movement").
 * In short, User:Deucaon appears to be trying to glorify the Chetniks and present them as the "Yugoslav Army" during WW2 or something. He also appears to be trying to remove all references to their collaboration with the Axis, which is a well-established historic fact, as per Britannica, the US Library of Congress , published sources (David Martin, Ally Betrayed: The Uncensored Story of Tito and Mihailovich, (New York: Prentice Hall, 1946), 34...), and more. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 11:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Mackensen, User:Deucaon has been very scarce with his responses on the talkpage (non of which were an actual explanation), so I'm not sure he will respond. Your thoughts on this? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 14:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I gave you my reason for removing the pictures and for making the article more accurate. Now give me back my editing powers - Deucaon.


 * That is in any way a valid reason for the removal of a picture. It certainly does not prove anything, but it is irrelevant to the subject matter: i.e. the Chetniks. I don't think your editing powers were removed. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 15:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Mackensen, I'd like to go forward with the general cleanup of the article. I wonder if I could rush a resolution to this matter? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 18:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see much point in unprotecting if there's just going to be revert-warring again. I'd say the central issue is the lack of sourcing on the "collaboration" section, but if such collaboration took place then sources ought to be easy to find. If sources substantiate collaboration, then the inclusion of the photograph would surely no longer be problematic (and vice-versa). I don't claim specialist knowledge of the fighting in Yugoslavia, but Chetnik collaboration with the Axis is fairly well-established in the secondary literature. A quick perusal of JSTOR suggests the following possibilities: Forgive me if this point isn't actually disputed, but from the above it appeared to be. I'd be intrigued to see a source which disputed the idea that collaboration took place. Anyway, going forward the blind reverting needs to stop, and people need to start using edit summaries. Mackensen (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Tomasevich, Jozo. The Chetniks: War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941-1945. Stanford University Press, 1975.
 * Milazzo, Matteo J. The Chetnik Movement and the Yugoslav Resistance. Johns Hopkins University Press, 1975.
 * Wheeler, Mark C. Britain and the War for Yugoslavia. Columbia University Press, 1980.
 * Roberts, Walter R. Tito, Mihailovic and the Allies, 1941-1945. Rutgers University Press, 1973.
 * Following up, Gerhard Weinberg's A World At Arms (which treats the subject briefly) emphasizes Chetnik-Italian collaboration. Mackensen (talk) 21:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There really is no question as to whether or not the Chetniks collaborated with the Axis, especially with the Italians, who both armed and supplied them. After all, Churchill for one would never agree shift support from a royalist to a communist movement if they weren't really collaborating to a notable degree (indeed their collaboration was ignored for a while due to this). At the present I can't think of any better source that illustrates this plain fact other than the US Library of Congress I've listed above, it cites "information from Documents on German Foreign Policy, 1919-1945, Arlington, Virginia, 1976". The Chetniks (correctly) asserted that they of course could not defeat the Germans, that if the Axis wins they are finished anyway, and that the pan-Yugoslav Partisan movement would be the greatest threat to a hegemonic (Serb) Yugoslav state if the Allies were to win. Basically all they did was fight the Partisans, and the occupation forces simply supported them in their civil war. In other words, the Partisans fought WW2 and the Civil war, and the Chetniks fought only the Civil war (and received Axis support).
 * The real problem is that User:Deucaon appears to be in denial about this. I would once again like to point out that his removal of pics cannot be justified in any way (certainly not because of their alleged "irrelevance"), and that the infobox he's trying to "preserve" is simply an excuse to legitimize the Chetniks somehow by adding a Yugoslav instead of their own, rather sinister-looking, flag. All information from the infobox was copied to the merged one, but perhaps Deucaon also finds the title "Chetniks" offensive in some way. However this should not end up as a discussion on Chetnik collaboration, that ended 65 years ago during the Tehran conference. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 22:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

DIREKTOR, I am not in denial. There is no evidence of collaboration save for words from Socialist, Fascist and clueless (second hand source) authors. Chetniks is the abbreviation of Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland. Just because USAF is the abbreviation of United States Air Force doesn't mean people shouldn't know that USAF is the abbreviation of United States Air Force. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deucaon (talk • contribs) 04:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No, there is evidence of collaboration didn't you read all the sources that are listed above? What you will be hard to find is a source actually biased enough to say that they didn't collaborate, a laughable thought, considering the amount of evidence to the contrary an the fact that it is public knowledge.
 * "Chetniks" is not an abbreviation of "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland", it is the name per WP:COMMONNAME, the common short name. There is no reason to use the full official name of the movement.
 * As for your removal of pics there is no possible justification for it. All in all, its pretty plain you're trying to "legitimize" the collaborationist Chetnik movement WP policy and historical sources to the contrary. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 08:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

How can I try and legitimize something that did not occur? Deucaon (talk)
 * The "Chetnik movement did not occur"? What are you saying? Have you read all the above statements and noted the sources confirming their collaboration (which is anyway public knowledge all over ex-Yu)? You're supposed to provide an argument to explain your revert-warring, you're doing nothing of the sort. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 17:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sources about "good" Chetniks:
 * Records of the office of Strategic Services
 * BBC abot Chetniks and massacre in Foča
 * BBC about Chetniks and Partisans 2
 * BBC about Chetniks and Partisans 3
 * I am tired with fact that every time when we have new nationalistic SPA account we need 15 days or month to solve problems (I can add sources for modern Serbian revisionism but...). Records of the office of Strategic Services and BBC writing about Chetniks is not possible to defeat, so problem is solved?--Rjecina (talk) 16:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Part of History Channel documentary about Partizans and Chetniks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMbaPVvwHAY  --(GriffinSB) (talk) 20:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Here are some quotes and citations from books and documents written by Germans who served in former Yugoslavia during the WW2.

Quote: July 13th, 1943

The Abt.Fremde Heere West has informed GenStdH about the message of Gen.Mihailovic to his commanders dated July 7th in which he, in the light of Allied landings in Sicily ,calls for preparations for uprising to be made,but to attack on his signal only...

Percy Schramm (hrsg.) "Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommando der Wehrmacht 1940-1945",Bernard&Graefe Verlgag,Muenchen,1982 (later "KTB OKW"),Band 6/II,p.779

Quote: July 20th,1943

OB Suedost informs about a captured radio-message of Mihailovic dated July 16th in which he,in the light of lthe looming events,calls for Sabotage in Croatia and thrust to the Adriatic,so that the Allies find chetniks instead of communists there.To take the wind out of Tito´s sails,the propaganda is to be Yugoslav rather than Greater-Serbian...

KTB OKW,b. 6/II,p.812

Quote: August 30th,1943

OKW has sent Führer´s decree dated August 28th over appointment of envoy Neubacher as "Sonderbevollmächtigten des Ausw. Amtes für den Südosten" as an addition to his existing tasks in the South-east.Appointment has already been forseen in a regulation concerning Befelsführung in the South-east.His official seat is to be in Belgrade.

KTB OKW,b.6/II,p.1036

Quote: October 30th,1943

On October 29th,Special envoy Neubacher has briefed the Führer on political and economical issues in the South-east,especially on Tito´s growing influence.On the same day an order was issued concerning the united effort in the struggle against communism in the South-east.The foreign ministry has despatched it on October 30th,with a request that all involved military posts are to be informed >"mit der Bitte um unterrichtung der beteiligten militärischen Stellen"<.Special envoy Neubacher,who receives his instructions from the Foreign minister,is charged with the political leadership in fight against Comunnism and with organisation of anti-communist nationalistic forces in the South-east.He is to take care that the political and economical measures are targeted against Communism.The ordering of reprisals is to be done in consultation with him. It is further instructed that the commanding powers are to be tightened in the person of Oberbefehlshaber of AG "F". Sp.envoy Neubacher has also been granted special powers:among others, he has the authorisation to negotiate with nationalsitic bands,if the possibilty occurs.(Bands of Draza Mihailovic,which have partly been pushed back to Serbia by Tito,appear to be breaking up.)....

KTB OKW,b.6/II,p.1233

Quote: November 5th,1943

Serbia: Mihailovic strives for a national-Serbian army >"bemüht sich um...Armee"<.He waits for an outside impulse to take action.Because there is still no such impusle,his movement faces crisis.Opposite to him,Communism steadily gains influence;it pushed Mihailovic out of Croatia. Because of this,he seeks conntact with German posts. It is striven to dissuade him from actions against Germans;still,precaution has to be taken against blackmailing methods.Apart from that communist action aimed at dissolution of his forces has far advanced.

KTB OKW b.6/II,p.1252-1253

Quote: November 7th,1943

From the German point of view it is desirable that Tito changes the coast as his main objective.So far he has pushed back the Serbian chetniks.It is the question if these ,under the circumstances,can be won over for our side. Sp. envoy Neubacher is authorised for the negotiations.

KTB OKW b.6/II,p.1261

Quote: November 17th,1943

Proposals for arrangement with chetnik groups have been presented. At the moment,only single bands are involved,not Mihailovic personaly.

KTB OKW b.6/II,p.1289

Quote: November 20th,1943

The OB Südost sent an extract from an agreement signed between the Mil.Bef.Serbien and Cetnik Staff 148 on November 19th.

KTB OKW b.6/II,p.1294

Quote: November 21st,1943

The cease-fire agreement between German,Bulgarian and Serbian security forces on one side,and chetnik groups on Serbian-Montenegro border on the other side has been signed between Mil.Bef. Serbien and a high-ranking DM commander. The agreement,in which Mihailovic has not been involved ,should serve as a prerequisite for a joint fight against the communists.

KTB OKW b.6/II,p.1296

Here is the text of the agreement (scanned from J.Piekalkiewicz´s "Krieg auf dem Balkan 1940-1945" and converted using ABBYY Scan-to-Office software):

Quote: Geheime Kommandosache

Auszug aus Vertrag zwischen Mil. Befehlshaber Südost und Cetnikstab 148, Führer Major Lukacevic, vom 19.11.43.

1.Waffenruhe im Raum Bajina Basta - Drin-Fluß -Tara-Fluß - Bijelopolje - Rozaj - Kos. Mitrovica -Ibar-Fluß - Kraljevo - Cacak - Uzice. In Abkommen sind eingeschlossen Deutsche Wehrmacht und Polizei, Bulgarische Wehrmacht, SFK, SSW, RSK, serbische Behörden und Wirtschaftsbetriebe, auf Cetnikseite Cetnikverbände des Majors Lukacevic im genannten Gebiet. 2.Waffenruhe soll Voraussetzung für gemeinsamen Kampf gegen Kommunisten bilden. 3.Gemeinsamer propagandistischer Kampf gegen Kommunismus. 4.Bestätigung Lukacevic, daß in unterstellten Einheiten kein Angehöriger der mit Deutschland im Krieg befindlichen Mächte vorhanden. 5.Überlassung von Kampfräumen an Cetnikverbände zu selbständiger Kampfführung durch Deutsche Wehrmacht. 6.Eingliederung der Cetnikverbände in deutsche Kampfführung bei größeren gemeinsamen Operationen. Kampfaufträge für diese Zeit durch deutsche Führung an Cetnikverbände. 7.Verpflichtung Major Lukacevic nicht gegen Mohamedaner vorzugehen. Verpflichtung deutscherseits,mohamedanisches Vorgehen gegen serbische Bevölkerung und Verbände Lukacevic zu verhindern. Bei Zwischenfällen gemeinsame Untersuchung und Befreiung. 8.Austausch von Verbindungsstäben. 9.Lieferung deutscher Munition zur Durchführung gemeinsamer Kampfaufgaben entsprechend militärischen Notwendigkeiten. Vorlage von Stärke, Gliederung und Bewaffnung der Cetnikverbände. 10.Vertrag ist geheimzuhalten.

OB Südost (Okdo. H. Gr. F) Ic C/AO Nr. 2107/43 gKdos. v. 20.11.43

Translated extracts:

Quote: 2.Cease-fire should be a prerequisite for joint action against the communists. 3.Joint propaganda aginst Communism. 6.Integration of chetnik units in the German command chain during bigger operations.Tasks of the chetniks will be determinted by German command. 8.Exchange of liason staffs. 9.Ammunition for use in joint actions will be supplied according to the military neccesities.Information on strenght,order of battle and weapons of Chetnik groups are to be submitted.

Here is the original German "Dislokation" map (courtesy of Mr.Awender).Under the "1.Geb.Div", "Cetn.Vbd.Lukacevic" is to be seen:

And v.Weichs' instruction on dealing with chetniks,dated November 21st,1943 (from the same source as the scan above):

Quote: Geheime Kommandosache! Ic/AO Nr. 2171/43 g.Kdos. II. Ang. H. Qu.,den21.11.1943 Der Oberbefehlshaber Südost (OKdo.H.Gr.F) IC/AO Nr. 2171/43 g.Kdos.

1. In Auswirkung der seit längerer Zeit in enger Zusammenarbeit mit dem Sonderbevollmächtigten des Auswärtigen Amtes und OB. Südost geführten Verhandlungen mit Führern von Cetnikverbänden wurde ein Abkommen geschlossen, das örtlich begrenzte Waffenruhe und fallweise zu treffende gemeinsame Kampfführung gegen den Kommunismus vorsieht. 2.Voraussetzung für dieses Abkommen war es und wird es bei möglichen weiteren Abkommen sein, daß die Cetnikverbände a)sich aller Kampf- und Sabotagehandlungen gegen die deutsche Wehrmacht, deren Verbündete, die mit diesen gemeinsam kämpfenden landeseigenen Verbände und die Muselmanen enthalten, b)bei Teilnahme an gemeinsamen Kampfhandlungen gegen die Kommunisten sich der deutschen Führung unterstellen, c)alle Verbindungen zu den mit Deutschland im Kriege stehenden Mächten aufgeben und vorhandene Verbindungsstäbe ausliefern, d)sich an einer gemeinsamen Propaganda gegen denKommunismus beteiligen. 3.Sämtliche Offiziere sind über folgendes zu unterrichten: a) Das bisherige Verbot einer Zusammenarbeit mit den Cetnikverbänden und einzelnen Banden entsprach der eindeutigen Festlegung des Obersten Cetnik führers Draga Mihajlovic auf unabdingbaren Kampf gegen Deutschland und seine Verbündeten,von dem dieser sich bisher nicht losgesagt hat. b)Die Erklärung einzelner Cetnikführer, den Kampf gegen den Kommunismus gemeinsam mit der deutschenWehrmacht führen zu wollen, kam der Gesamtbeurteilung der Feindlage im Südostraum, die das kommunistische Bandenunwesen und seine nachweisbare ideelle und materielle Unterstützung durch die UdSSR als Hauptgefahr erkannt hat, entgegen und mußte demnach zu einer Überprüfung der Cetnik-Angebote führen. c)Die neuerdings loyale Einstellung einzelner Cetnik-verbände kann nicht verallgemeinert werden, da auch heute noch Überfälle und Sabotageakte durch Cetnik-Banden ausgeführt werden. d)Der Truppe sind weiterhin Verhandlungen mit Cetnikverbänden verboten.Eigenmächtigkeiten können nur die von höchster politischer und militärischer Stelle aus angebahnten Verbindungen stören und damit schwere Nachteile für die Gesamtführung im Südost Raum zur Folge haben. e)Örtliche Cetnikführer, die sich zu gemeinsamem Kampf anbieten, sind an die nächstliegende Dienststelle der Abwehr oder des SD zu verweisen. f)Die Propaganda gegen die Cetnik-Bewegung wird eingestellt, ihre Wiederaufnahme ist abhängig von der Entwicklung der neugeschaffenen Lage.

gez. Frhr. von Weichs Generalfeldmarschall

Translation:

Quote: 1.As a result of the long negotiations that the "OB Südost" and "Sonderbevollmächtigten des Auswärtigen Amtes" had with the commanders of chetnik groups,the agreement has been made,which provides local cease-fire and occasional joint action against Communism.

2.Prerequiste for this agreement was,and for eventual future agreements will be that the Chetniks: a) will refrain from all combat- and sabotage acts against Germans,their allies,friendly domestic forces and Muslims; b) will stand under German command in joint actions against the communists; c) will severe all connections with the countries in war with Germany and will deliver all present liason staffs of those countries; d) will co-operate in the joint propaganda against the communists;

3.All officers are to be informed of the following: a) Up untill now the co-operation with the chetniks was forbidden because of Draza Mihailovic´s unalterable insistance to fight the Germans and their allies; up until now,he hasn´t apostized such a stand; b) Declaration of some chetnik commanders that they would fight the Communism jointly with the German Wehrmacht complied with the general evaluation of the enemy position in the South-east: USSR-sponsored communist bands are the biggest danger. That's why the offers made by chetniks had to be re-evaluated; c) Newly loyal attitude of the some chetnik groups should not be taken as a general attiude: sabotage and attacks are still perpetuated by the chetnik bands; d) The troops are still forbidden to negotiate with the chetniks. Arbitrary acts can only jeopardise already initiated conntacts made by the highest military and political posts. Such actions can only bring serious disadvantages in the whole South-east; e) Local chetnik commanders who offer co-operation,are to be taken to the nearest SD or Abwehr post; f) Propaganda against the chetniks is to cease; the results of the current developents will decide if it is to be re-introduced.

sign. Frhr. von Weichs Generalfeldmarschall

Quote: November 23rd,1943

According to a trustworthy source,Mihailovic has ordered his commanders to co-operate with the Germans. He himself can not step forward in such a fashion because of the impact such move could have on populace's disposition.

KTB OKW b.6/II,p.1304

Quote: December 17th,1943

Lecture notices on

...the deployment of chetnik commander Djurisic,who fell into German captivity in mid-May,and who should now organise his earlier followers for the co-operation with Germany.

KTB OKW b.6/II,p.1366

Quote: December 22nd,1943

The Head of the POW section >"Chef des Kriegsgefangenenwesens"< should make an inquiry about 1300 former followers of the Montenegrin chetnik leader Djurisic(who should co-operate with Germany in Montenegro) and report on their behaviour so far,because their use for a special action is being considered.

KTB OKW b.6/II,p.1379

Extracts from a draft titled "Die Entwicklung im Südosten vom 1.April-31.Dezember 1944" which was compiled in November 1944 using the documents of Wehrmacht Führungstab and KTB; to be found in "KTB OKW",p.632-732.

Quote: As in fall of 1943 Tito´s movement grew stronger,supported by Russian and English help and as Mihailovic movement was being pushed into Serbia (and aditionaly weakend by non-existence of Italian support) ,Mihailovic realised that the time has come to re-examine his attitude to the Germans. As the German leadership in the same time was striving to unite and activate all of the anti-communist forces in the South-east (for which a Sp. envoy for South-east,Dr. Neubacher,has been appointed in October 1943),the contacts were made and in the next two months a series of cease-fire agreements was made between German military posts and Mihailovic´s commanders. He refrained from personal involvement,mostly because he didn´t want to lose the Anglo-American arms shippments,which he still received,no matter how smaller than before. Anyway the actions by Mihailovic´s organisation against the Germans stopped. This lead to a marked improvement of situation >"Entspannung"< in the Old Serbia around the new year.

KTB OKW,b.7/I,p.637

Quote: ...Possibly under impression made by these German counter-measures,Mihailovic-this time personaly-tried to make conntact with German posts,at the end of March-beggining of April. According to the information the Sp.envoy had,Mihailovic was faced with an ultimatum by the exile-government and the Soviets,in which his subordination to Tito was demanded.Sp. envoy was expecting that Mihailovic,faced with unacceptable requests,would try to approach Nedic,i.e. the occupation forces. In agreement with Sp.envoy Neubacher, OB Südost showed no interest for a new round of negotiations,mostly because of what was in the background: Uncertainty toward the Allies,recognition of inferiority to Tito and the unsettled relation to the Nedic´s government.

KTB OKW,b.7/I,p.640-641

Quote: ...So,the operation got bigger and more important for both sides;and a new factor has arrisen,namely the involvement of Serbian chetniks.They formed a strong battle group,allegedly under the command of Mihailovic himself,and went into combat against the "eastern group" of the Communist forces which were advancing from Dreiländer-Ecke >Bosnia,Montenegro,Sandzak< to the north-west. (Lagebuch 29.4.).

KTB OKW,b.7/I,p.651

Quote: ...The Führer approved of the plan,although it would cause new wave of unrest and would make troubles to the German leadership in the South-east, which was employing more and more Orthodox-chetnik groups and had good experience with them.

KTB OKW,b.7/I,p.703

Quote: During the month of May, the action of Djurisic in Montenegro which had made a promising start,took a sharp turn;at the middle of the month it had to be considered as a failure.According to the report made by the representative of the Foreign ministry in Cetinje,and related by OB Südost, several things stood in the way of succeseful usage of still strong domestic forces (including the chetniks) against the communists: absence of a definite goal,minimum of material support and the most important: the lack of a clear military leadership;the domestic groups were split in divisonal commandos,the Feldkommandatur and the police.

KTB OKW,b.7/I,p.708

Quote: During the defense against the incursion of the Red divisions in March,April and May,Serbian units proved themselves well, notably the Serbisches Freiwilligen Korps but also more or less illegal groups of Chetniks,allegedly under the personal command of Mihailovic.

KTB OKW,b,7/I,p.706

Quote: The Serbian Chetniks and Draza Mihailovic,who (along from Ustasha and EDES) were the only serious anti-communist movement in the South-east,were biding their time during the summer and were occasionaly willing to negotiate. Tense situation existed in their relations to Nedic government,whose power grew stronger (connected to the strengthening of SFK).In order to make the recruitment harder,they took reprisals against the inhabitants.OB South-east,in this context hinted again at the Dr. Neubacher's propostion on strengthening the Nedic government. However,as the Allied offensive was opened,as the Turkey changed sides,as Bulgaria changed it's attitude and as Tito's forces appeared to be endangering the German positions n the South-east,Mihailovic and Nedic started to approach each other and to seek contacts with the Germans.

This fact had a thoroughgoing meaning. Up until now the German leadship thought that in a moment when the occupation force gets into trouble,all the uprising movements would join hands and call for a general uprising.Now it showed that-quoted in the OB order dated 2nd of August-"Draza Mihailovic,as well as leaders of all other bands believe that (on the basis of a general situation) the invader is the Enemy nr.2; Enemy nr.1 became Communism at home and abroad."

On August 17th (OB message of August 20th) Nedic offered the unification of all Serbian forces for the defense of communist-endangered Serbdom.He underlined that he was officialy speaking for Mihailovic too,after the meeting they had.He asked for a immediate shippment of 3 million small-arms rounds and a approval for creating of a 50,000 strong Serbian army made mostly of Mihailovic's units. OB South-east,after consulting with Mil.Bef. Suedsot,quickly reached a conclusion that a turning down this offer meant antagonising all of the Serbs,new Tito's succeses,cuting all the comunications (especially to Greece) and to the stopping of economical exploitation.

KTB OKW,b,7/I,p.709

Quote: During the visit to the FHQ on August 22nd,GFM v. Weichs pointed out the fact that with further advance ot Tito and the awaited pull-out of Bulgarian Occupation Corps,the situation in Serbia will grow worse,and that the forces at hand won't be up to it.Chetniks,who in the period March-August lost 5,000 men fighting the communists are lately not hostile towards the Germans....8-10,000 of them are curently fighting the communists alongside the German forces in Southern Serbia under German major Weyel.The Mihailovic-Nedic agreement means unification of all Serbs and 90% support of the people...He proposed the forming of three regiments from proven chetniks, 6,000 men in all,for which necessary weapons should be shipped and officers sent to provide German leadership…

Quote: ...Fuehrer's decission was relayed by teleprinter >“Fernschriftlich“<:Only single,proven chetnik groups are to be placed under German control and command for use in tacticaly small local actions.

KTB OKW,b,7/I,p.710

Quote: As Serbia quickly became eastern front of the OB Suedost,and as Tito-forces advanced from the west,the chetniks continued seeking contections with the Germans;some even offered hostages. In the same time,they were showing their dissapointment with small or non-existent arms shippments…

Quote: …At the end of September,resistance notwithstanding,chetniks were pushed out of important parts of Serbia.Only those who stuck closely with German forces held out. >“soweit sie sich nicht eng an die deutsche Wehrmacht anlehnten“<

KTB OKW,b,7/I,p.711

Following lines are translated from "Das Ende auf dem Balkan":Die Operationen der Heeresgruppe E von Griechenland bis zu den Alpen",Kurt Vowinckel Verlag,Heidelberg 1955, by Erich Schmidt-Richberg >He was the Chieff of staff of HG "E" from 3/15/44<

Quote: It is known that the German attitude towards the chetniks changed several times.As Tito and the communists finaly gained the upper hand in the Yugoslav Resistance,chetniks and Germans reached some kind of neutrality arrangement. This arrangement was not strongly adherred to by the chetniks;apart from that,it lead to troubles with the Croats.The OB of HG "E" had to take a clear stand in regard to disputes between various Yugoslav groups.The interests and mentality of the Croats came in the first place,because the OB had to work with them in the future. Directives on the troops had to be clear and simple. OB reminded on their unreliability and has forbidden offical pacting with the chetniks,as well as supporting them with arms and ammunition.Envoys were to be sent to the OB. It was percieved that only local arrangements with "Heimat-Cetniks" were advantageous.These guidelines payed off.Ccourse of events from the near past played a role in forming of the attitude of the OB. Not so long time ago have chetniks attacked an SS column east of Sarajevo,causing hundred deaths. The attitude of chetniks from Ibar valley (some of them were present near Krusevac when Col. v.d. Chevallerie was captured) and Novipazar was unclear. The night attack on a German company-sized (altough of weak combat strength) column on the old Turkish road Mitrovica-Novipazar was probably made by the chetniks. However,it is not ruled out that the attcak was made by partisans who were sppoted around Tutin,where they promptly retreated.

p.55-56

Quote: The leader of the chetniks ,this nationalistic Serbian resistance movement,Draza Mihailovic was in Vares. In his name general Trifunovic demanded the right to use the Drina crossings at Gorazde;he was turned down. Later,a large number of his men gradualy made it across the river.Anticipated directive of OB came >"Es sei noch vorweggenommen dass bald der Auftrag von OB kam..."< ,which instructed the handing out of ammunition to the chetniks. The V.SS Corps then pointed out that the chetniks ambushed their column,causing 100 deaths.Apart from that,own units were low on ammunition,so the handing out was hardly possible. It was basicaly percieved that the co-operation with this group could hardly yield any more advantages. Old distrust towards the chetniks,Croat enemy nr.1, could not be overcome. This caused the OB to order that chetniks are to be supported only localy.

p.83

Quote: General Geiger,the commander of Doboj,had on his disposal two battalions of the 7.SS divisio,one Flak battalion,local Railway Security troops,detachments from passing-by troops,Domobran division,1000 rifles,still in organisation and another 1000 ustashas. Loose connection was held with chetniks on the Ozren mountain and in Trebovac.They were supported in a very modest way by supplying medical supplies and rifle ammunition.

p.111

Quote: December 14th,1942

Serbia: In the zone of the 704. inf. divison one unreliable chetnik group was disarmed.

KTB OKW,b.4/II,p.1136

Quote: December 17th,1942

Croatia: Eastern Bosnia: Unreliable chetnik group was disarmed.

KTB OKW,b.4/II,p.1150

Following extracts are from KTB OKW,band 7/I,p.732-756. Original document is named "Kroatien (unter militärischen Gesichtspunkten) im Jahr 1944", compiled from "Akten of WFStab and "Merkbuch":

Quote: Croatians repeated protests over the use of chetnik groups by the Wehrmacht in Dalmatia. Führer responded they are only dissarmed Hiwis or that the arangements are made only with small groups; There are no chetnik commanders from Serbia proper in Dalmatia,and these groups represent no threat to the Croatian state....

>Meeting between Hitler and "Croatian ministers" in FHQ on March 1st 1944<

KTB OKW,b.7/I,p.739

Quote: ...Mixing even of smallest groups of orthodox chetniks with Croatian citizenship with the troops is not a practical idea,for various reasons. Attachment of single loyal groups (term "Chetnik" is to be ommited) to German units was proposed...

>Message of OB Südost of April 25th 1944<

KTB OKW,b.7/I,p.743

Quote: ...On September 1st came a directive to both OB Südost and Deutscher Bev. Gen. to proceed against fraternization with the chetniks and to enforce earlier Führer's orders on this matter.

KTB OKW,b.7/I,p.751

Extracts from the report Wilchelm Hoettl (after the war wrote the book "Geheime Front" under the pseudonym Walther Haagel) of the SD sent to Edmund Glaise von Horstenau in March 1945.Document is quoted in Vasa Kazimirovic,"Njemacki general u Zagrebu",Kragujevac-Beograd 1996.,p.309-310. Original is to be found in Kriegsarchiv Wien,B-67,nr.101.

Quote: "During the preparations for a certain operation in Serbia,liason officer to the group which was to take part in this operation had a conversation with Draza Mihailovic.Conversation went on in especially friendly atmosphere. DM found out that the plan of the group fits good in his own plans-fight against communism-so he promised all the necessary help. DM said that,appart from increased activity of his forces in Serb arrea, he plans to reorganize his troops in western Bosnia and launch an attack on Serbia in the right moment. He is of the opinion that this move should be synchronised with the advance by German army in the Balkans,in which case Old Serbia should be made his arrea of operations...

...As for propaganda against the common enemy,he purposed a settinng up of a secret radio-station,adding that Nedic's stations don't have the desired impact on Serbian people...

...Having all this in mind,it can be said that DM's intentions are honest...

...DM's idea of setting up a radio-station should be considered.He purposed that the impression should be made,as though the station is operating from within Serbia.Impact of such an arrangement should be twofold: first,it should influence effectively the Serbian population (unlike Nedic's station) and it should create the feeling of unconfort among Serbia's current masters."

Extract from the letter written by German soldier Erasmus von Jakimow (March 15th 1918,Skopin-November 17th 1944,at Albertfalu on Danube),dated October 31st 1944:

Quote: "The Situation in the Balkans seems to be changing-for better or for worse,who could tell?...The English seem to have dropped Dalmatia-Montenegro,Chetniks have broken and fled >laufen auseinander<,some to us,but most to Tito.It became clear :it's White against Red now.

Quoted from:Hans-Adolf Jacobsen,Hans Dollinger "Der zweite Weltkrieg in Bildern und Dokumenten",Wiesbaden,3.Band,p.189

Quote: "Attempt of the 342. ID to advance in the territory held by the uprisers,on both banks of upper Drina has failed.Losses were light mostly because of Dangic's orders on his men not to fight the German troops..."

Ladislaus Hory und Martin Broszat,"Der Kroatische Ustascha-Staat 1941-1945",p.119,reference to "Bericht des deutschen Kriegsverwaltungschef SS-Gruppenfuehrer Turner vom 16.2.1942 an Himmler;Pers.Stab RFSS,Inst f. Zeitgesch. MA 328,Bl. 651814 ff.

Quote: "Bands operating in Eastern Bosnia also involve,apart from Communists,chetnik bands of the former Col.Mihailovic and Major Jezdimir Dangic...Dangic doesn't want to fight the Wehrmacht and according to the Bericht des Bevoellmaechtigten Komandierenden Generals in Serbien written on 5th of February,this was proved on the field...Major Dangic has made following proposals in the negotiations in Belgrade: He is willing to secure Eastern Bosnia with his chetniks under following conditions:

1.)that all Ustasha withdraw from this area; 2.)that the Germans army takes over the area ; 3.)that the Croatian administration apparatus be made of Serbs,Croats and Muslims.

Based on the former,negotiations were conducted by Komandierenden General in consultation with German ambassador in Zagreb and with Croatian government.They failed because of the objections of the Croatian government,which would not tolerate such reductions to the state's souverenity;Komandierende General who would not act without their consent,broke off the talks."

Ibidem,s.119-120.Reference to "Bericht des Chefs der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD an Reichsfuehrer-SS am 17.Februar 1942",PA/AA,Buero RAM:Kroatien 1941/1942,Bl.442-449.

Quote: "Whole border between Serbia and Bosnia on the Drina with Visegrad is secured by German and Croatian troops.In the area east of Sarajevo,even the Serbian refugees started to come back to their homes.In the area of Ozren (north of Sarajevo),Croats achieved trough the negotiations that 13 chetnik batallions,though week,placed themselves in the service of the Croatian state >"in Verhandlungen erreicht worden,dass...dem kroatischen Staat unterstellt" hätten.<

Ibidem,s.128.Reference to "Telegramme Kasches vom 15. und 30.5.42;PA/AA,Buero Sts:Kroatien,Bd.3,Bl.89f. und 107.

"As Croat general Franjo Simic was killed on 9th of August 1943,apparently by Chetniks...have the Croatian students published the following leaflet:"

Quote: "The Chetniks,those perfidious snakes and criminals,have pacted in the past with the Italians.Now they do it with the Germans...We ask from the Germans to stop tolerating and supporting the Chetniks who are their worst foes...Chetniks and Croats must not and will not have the same allies...Death and revenge to the Chetniks!Long live the Croatian state!

Ibidem,s.165-166.Reference to the "German translation of the leaflet by Embassy secretary v.Schubert,presented to Ambassador Kasche on 12.8.1944;PA/AA,Gesandschaft Zagreb:Bd.67/4,Bl.56 ff.

"At the end of September 1944 German commander of Split arrested the Ustashi-leader of the town in reprisal for Ustashi actions against the chetniks who were allied to the Wehrmacht,threatening to

Quote: "...shoot five Ustashis for every Chetnik."

Ibidem,s.166.Reference to:"Telegramme des Stabchefs der Ustascha-Miliz,Oberst Herencic,von Ende September 1944;PA/AA,Gesandschaft Zagreb:Bd.67/4,Bl.75f.

Extract from the note by v. Weichs on Mihailovic:

Quote: "Though he himself shrewdly refrained from giving his personal view in public,no doubt to have a free hand for every eventuality (e.g. Allied landing on the Balkans),he allowed his commanders to negotiate with the Germans and to co-operate with them.And they did it,more and more..."

Werner Roehr (zusammengestellt),"Europa unterm Hakenkreuz-Okkupation und Kollaboration (1938-1945),1994,s.358;reference to "Johann Wuescht,"Jugoslawien und das Dritte Reich.Eine dokumentierte Geschichte der deutsch-jugoslawischen Beziehungen von 1933-1945",1969,s.64

The following lines come from Klaus Schmider,"Partisanenkrieg in Jugoslawien",Hamburg;Berlin;Bonn 2002.

"The ten-day report of the Commanding General states even that the Chetniks

Quote: "have proven themselves in co-operation with German Wehrmacht better than the Croatian Army units."

Schmider,p.134; BA/MA, RH 26-114/12 10-Tage Meldung fuer die Zeit vom 11.9.-20.9.42 (20.9.1942)

"So,for instance in context of fighting around Prozor and defence of Konjic.At the end of the operation came Lueters to the following conclusion:

Quote: "The divisions that took part in "Weiss II" gave consistent reports >"aeusserten sich uebereinstimmend"< on the good conduct of Chetnik units.Trough scouting and relieving attacks they have helped our troops,all that without asking for German support in any way."

ibidem,p.232,footnote 179; BA/MA, RH 24-15/2 Bfh. d. dt. Tr. i. Kroat.,Ia-Lagebeurteilung fuer die Zeit vom 1.3.-15.3.43 (16.3.43.)

Quote: "In the future,ammunition will be handed out only to those Chetnik units who under German command fight the Partisans."

ibidem,p.187; BA/MA, RH 26-118/32 Befehl and die Cetnikfuehrer Cvijetin Todic,Golub Mitrovic,Savo Derikonja,Radivoj Kosoric,Bozo Plemic und Dusan Kovacevic (12.1.43).

Quote: "Partly,the Serbs have futhermore showed themselves as the most reliable allies in fighting against the red bands,that is against communism.They are always ready to fight against the bandits with the German Wehrmacht and even to place themselves under it's command"

ibidem,p.307;BA/MA, RH 24-15/10 SS-Freiw.-Div. "Prinz Eugen" an Gen.Kdo. XV.Geb.AK. (5.9.1943).

"In the few weeks that have passed since the division moved into this region formerly occupied by the Italians,the Chetniks have made themselves indespensible at securing the supply routes (especially the Knin-Drnis railroad). If Djuic would be arrested at this moment ,said Egleser, it would mean the troops would have to

Quote: "fight constantly for their own supplies."

ibidem,p.308; BA/MA, RH 24-15/6 114.Jaegerdivision,Abt. Ic an Gen.Kdo. XV.Geb.AK (4.10.43).

"So,it doesn't surprise that the words

Quote: "Armed support of the brave Chetniks"

were openly said at a "Chefbeschprechung" in Thesaloniki on 1st of March."

ibidem,p.232; BA/MA ,RH 19 VII/7 Aktennotiz ueber die Chefbeschprechung am 1.3.1943 (1.3.1943).

Following lines were written by Edmund Glaise von Horstenau in his diary:

Quote: "The units that could really be used against the partisans were the Serbian and partly the Russian volunteers and-Draza Mihailovic's people.My liason officer with them was a certain major,Ritterkreuztraeger."

>written on situation in Serbia during his visit to Belgrade in June 1944.<

Peter Broucek,"Ein General in Zwielicht;Errinerungen Edmund Glaises von Horstenau",Wien-Koeln-Graz,1988; p.421

Quote: "Using the general situation in which Mihailovic found himself,we made local agreements with various chetnik groups."

>written on situation in Croatia at the beginning of 1944.<

ibidem,p.352

Quote: "In the meanwhile, single groups which are found to be suitable to be our partners in the fighting against the partisans can be, from case to case, supplied with ammunition. Written commitments on the part of the Wehrmacht are, in every case, not to be made."

Klaus Schmider,"Partisanenkrieg in Jugoslawien",Hamburg;Berlin;Bonn 2002, p.492 ; PA/AA, SbvollSO R 27303 Neubacher an Kramarz (21.3.1944)

Quote: "Every support provided by the occupying power is to be canceled until further notice, even to the DM chetniks who are fighting the communism."

ibidem, p.495; BA/MA, RW 40/88 Tagesmeldung vom 27.5.1944.

Quote: "Until the clarification of the newly developed situation and it's possible impact, we will distance ourselves from the DM camp, with the only exception of the joint fight against the red partisans, which developed in the field."

ibidem, p.497; PA/AA, SbvollSO R 27301 Neubacher an Junker (22.5.1944)

Quote: "With offers made by D.M. movement, the handing-over of the enemy spies (Englishmen) should be asked for. Those who wish to return with their arms, should be helped on their way back home. DM-units should be bound not to undertake any hostile activities against the German Wehrmacht and it's allies and to return German prisoners. They should also pledge to fight the communists in certain areas, supervised by a German liason officer."

ibidem,p.472-473; BA/MA, RW 40/82 KTB-Eintrag vom 1.11.1943

Quote: "DM has repeatedly tried to make contact with us" >"...mit uns ins Gespraech zu kommen."<

ibidem,p.488; BA/MA, RW 40/86 Militaerbefehlshaber Suedost, Abt. Ia, Lagebericht fuer die Zeit vom 16.2-15.3.1944 (25.3.1944)

Quote: "Important duty of the Pz.AOK 2 and Mil.Bhf.Suedost is to bring all of the chetniks in Serbia and Montenegro to battle with the red forces and keep them engaged, so that they can't act on their own initiative. This initiative, if allowed, could result in action against Germany, given the general situation."

ibidem,p.510; BA/MA, RH 19 XI/28 OB Suedost an Pz.AOK 2 (26.8.1944)

Quote: "Gen.Lt. Winter has determined that is important to realise, that the arms D.M. is asking for are not available."

ibidem,p.517; BA/MA, RH 19 XI/18 Gruppe Ic/AO, Aktennotiz zur Beschprechung am 29.9.1944 (30.8.1944)

"As the Germans tired to have three of their V-maenner >three out of 70 chetniks the NDH powers had arrested after the Otok massacre< freed, came to considerable tension between the Germans and the Croats. Leader of the "Abwehrstelle" in Split commented...:"

Quote: "We cannot abandon the only allies (chetniks) we have in this cursed country >Sauland< (Croatia)."

ibidem,p.373; PA/AA. Inland IIg 401, 2824 Kasche an Auswaertiges Amt (16.4.1944)

Quote: "Chetniks are the only useful fellow combatants"

ibidem,p.378; BA/MA, RH 19 XI/15 Erfahrungsbericht ueber Dienstreise Serbien-Kroatien in der Zeit vom 20.6-4.7.1944 (5.7.1944)

Quote: "Chetniks (...) our natural allies. Only they are fighting! "Kroatische Kampfgemeinschaft" exists only on paper."

ibidem,p.378; BA/MA, RH 19 XI/29 OKW/WfSt, Gruppe Ic/Ao Vortragsnotiz fuer Aussenchefbeschprechung am 25.7.1944 (23.7.1944)


 * Wow, this certainly ends the argument in my view (if ever an argument there was). I'd like to appeal to the involved Admins to stop the senseless, undiscussed, and unsupported revert-warring by User:Deucaon. In all objectivity, he appears to be a weekend-editor with a very limited interest in discussion, and a Serb nationalist of strong conviction. He has brought forth no sources, no evidence, and no reasons for his revert-warring other than what appears to be a categorical belief in the "rightousness" of the Chetnik cause. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 10:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Well,noone can deny German OKW.That's why i thought it's important to post this. The best way to fight ultranationalist Serbs who think that Chetniks were (activly) fighting Germans is to ask them to name ONE(1) battle where Chetniks fought the Germans.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 20:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not an ultranationalist Serb in any way but I DO know a battle between the Germans and Chetniks. Unfortenutely it is not from a written source, but an account from my own living grandmother (she was a little girl back then). It was an ambush of a motorised German column at village of Zablaće near the town of Čačak by Chetniks. The column of some 15++ trucks (the number of trucks is my estimate as she described me the length of the column - certainly over 300m - my guess is that it was a batallion-sized unit) moved from the direction of Čačak towards Kraljevo (she does not remember the date or year of this event, but my guess is that it happened during the Chetnik and Partisan joint attack on Kraljevo in 1941. - the column being a reinforcement for the German troops around Kraljevo). The battle lasted several hours in the afternoon, and the Germans withdrew towards Čačak in the evening. Prior to the arrival of the column the Chetniks warned the villagers to leave the area but my great-grandmother who was with my grandmother at the time was slow to comply, so they left the house (for some relatives in the next village) just as the first gunshots were fired and within the sight of the German soldiers of the rear of the column who were emerging from their trucks to form a combat formation (they did not fire at my ancestors who were clearly just fleeing civilians, but those Germans in the head of the column, being already engaged, were more "trigger happy" towards the villagers living in houses next to the road who remained there). After the battle the Chetniks, dead tired and some wounded, settled themselves in the village houses for the night accepting the hospitality of the remaning and returned villagers but also taking what food they needed if the offered was not enough. In the morning my grandmother saw several bodies of German soldiers around the road, but no Chetnik ones (they either had no fatalities or already buried their dead during the night).


 * Early Chetnik-Partsan cooperation in fighting against the Germans is well known, but it soon broke (during the battle for Kraljevo), and later there were cooperations between the Germans and Chetniks on tactical the level (more in a co-bellegirant then outright allied way).


 * I think that it is highly inappropriate (nerly propagandic) to have several pictures of Germans and WW2 Chetniks and NO pictures of just WW2 Chetniks. Why not have one with the partisans (to ilustrate 1941. cooperation), one just of them, and one with the Germans?   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.1.41 (talk) 13:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The OKW is indeed a very reliable source. The recent idea is that, since the Chetniks were undisciplined, there existed "good" and "bad" groups. That these bad "fascist Chetniks" collaborated without Mihailović's consent, and that the good ones were a multinational force that didn't fight the Germans, but didn't collaborate with them. This is, of course, utter nonsense, but it is a "nice try", so to speak. Mihailović almost never (with a few rare exceptions) lost control of his Chetniks, as he was the appointed commander by the King. Those fighting against his standing orders cannot even be considered Chetniks. In any case even such claims can now be easily defeated. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 21:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

And there are few battles where it's known that Chetniks aided the Germans.Like the Battle of Neretva.Some 20.000 Chetniks fought on the German side against Tito's Partizans there.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 12:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup
I know this is a touchy subject, so before I start working on the article in earnest, I want to make my intent and goals clear:
 * I am here to Wikify the article, not to glorify either the Chetniks or the Partisans. I am aware that this is a controversial article, but it cannot remain in this state forever.
 * I openly state that I do indeed intend to put together a piece of text describing Chetnik collaboration with the Axis powers, and their Serb nationalist ideology. I will of course use reliable sources for this (some of which are stated in the talkpage above), and will not use unencyclopedic expressions and phrases.

Steps:
 * 1) fixing the grammar & spelling of the article, sentence construction, the Wikilinks and text construction. (Many small pieces of text divided by space will be merged) I will also enlarge and rearrange some pics
 * 2) a review of sources and an assessment of their reliability and/or bias
 * 3) removal of any segments of text that may glorify any of the WW2 factions, as well as original research (editor conclusions): this does not belong in an encyclopedia
 * 4) expansion of the text and a corresponding addition of sources

I want to make it 100% clear that I bear absolutely no ill will towards the Serbs or any other Nation in ex-Yugoslavia, or the whole world for that matter. I'm not undertaking this particular task out of any POV or personal agenda, it is simply a part of my general work on WW2 Yugoslav articles. I'm looking forward to constructive cooperation with any involved users. Finally a smiley, :) --  DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 18:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm basically done. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 21:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Deucaon
Once again, can an Admin do something about this guy? He reverts without question, discussion, or reason. See "Edit warring" section above. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 14:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You’re the one screwing with my edits! Deucaon (talk) 16:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You don't do edits, you just revert. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 17:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I removed the collaboration BS and added a picture.

For more reference: http://serbliberationblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/deucaon-ww2.html

It contains pictures, details and sources.

Don't attempt to undo the change.

Deucaon —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC).

Infobox?
The military unit infobox used in the article is not appropriate for a militant political movement that existed in several periods of a country's history. I would like to remove it (while ensuring the information remains in the article), does anyone have any objections? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 23:25, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Deucaon :)
Hi, I see that once again you somehow got the idea that you can just waltz in and remove referenced data and images while replacing them with gibberish from some radical nationalist blog. Take the time to learn more about what Wikipedia considers a source. Please discuss your edits and do your homework before making such controversial changes. Regards -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 16:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Please note that it is highly unlikely your edits will remain on Wikipedia for very long without discussion and sources. If you really care about making a lasting contribution, you will stop edit-warring (to avoid getting banned) and discuss. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 16:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The picture you posted of "Chetniks and Germans" doesn't even state which location they are in! You are a hypocrite. Make yourself useful put up the picture of Chetniks escorting the German POWs through Uzice because I don't know how to.--Deucaon (talk) 16:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Your personal attack will be immediately reported... -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 16:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Grab the attention of the mods... hopefully they will put an end to your BS.--Deucaon (talk) 16:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)