Talk:Chex Quest/Archives/2013

WP:ELBURDEN
After some helpful discussions with User:Nikkimaria regarding the recent culling of information from the article it has come to my attention that every external link that had been provided had not been justified in the opinion of the editors. As such, and starting from a clean slate, I'd like to re-propose two of the former external links for the consideration of the editors. I'll start by offering my justification and then I'll conclude by addressing what seem to have been Nikkimaria's concerns. Apologies in advance if I've misapprehended these concerns. The explanations I've been offered have been minimal although Nikkimaria has suggested that further explanations will be revealed once I've made my case.

The first external link that I thought was potentially useful for this article is this: The reason I think this is an appropriate external link for this article is because one of the major themes of this article is the extent of fan-related activity in connection to the game. As the article points out, the press has repeatedly remarked upon the unusual level of fan appreciation for the game. Among the fan organizations that the press have identified, none comes up as commonly as chexquest.org. This website was mentioned in the Evan Lahti article for PC Gamer, the PC Gamer Panel - PAX 2010 event, Chris Plante's piece entitled "Chex Quest 3 Released; Cereal fans set down spoons to rejoice", and in Dori Molitor's article for Hub Magazine where she put it in context thus: "[a]lso at the top of the first page of Google results are full-blown fan forums and web communities, led by chexquest.org." Given the unusual importance of the fan community to a full and encyclopedic understanding of the topic, and given the fact that key staff from the original development team of the original games use this particular website to distribute new material related to the game, I think that this is a rare case where a link to this most active hub of fan activity may be appropriate. Although the fan forum doesn't really meet the criteria for a reliable source, it does contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources - members of the game's original development team including Charles Jacobi, Scott Holman, and Andrew Benson as well as leaders of the community that forms a major theme of the Wikipedia article - so I think it at least meets WP:ELMAYBE.
 * www.chexquest.org - The Chex Quest Fan Forums

The second external link that I thought was potentially useful for this article is this: Charles Jacobi was the art director and lead artist on the original development team for Chex Quest 1 and 2. Together with original development team programmer, Scott Holman, and original development team sound design leader, Andrew Benson, Jacobi created Chex Quest 3, a game that has been recognized by the fan community as the official third game in the series. This project is the emphasis of both of Chris Plante's articles as well as Scott Sharkey's article for GamePro, and other RSes not included in the article such as this bit-tech piece. Mr. Jacobi's website also contains coverage of the original game including development material from the beta and design phases. This material goes directly to an encyclopedic understanding of the topic, it contains information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources per WP:ELMAYBE, and it primarily covers the area for which the subject of the article is notable per WP:ELOFFICIAL.
 * www.chucktropolis.com - Charles Jacobi's website

In trying to get an explanation for the recent removal of these links, Nikkimaria asked me to review WP:ELNO and when I reported that I had reviewed it and was still interested in an explanation the response was "Forum and user-generated multimedia downloads". From this I gather that the chexquest.org link was removed for violating WP:ELNO point #10. Although this does seem to suggest that the forum should be excluded, I rely on the word "normally" in "Links normally to be avoided" (emphasis added) when I suggest that this isn't a normal case. I think that the article's emphasis of the fan community and this particular forum's centrality to the fan community makes it worthy of inclusion as an external link. The forum also seems to contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources as this is one of the main avenues used by original development staff to release material related to the Chex Quest canon (Charles Jacobi et al originally released Chex Quest 3 via chexquest.org). I'm not completely sure which part of ELNO was implicated by Nikkimaria's term "user-generated multimedia downloads", but I suspect it may have been point #11. Although this is definitely a personal web page, I think it's fair to say that it is the personal website of a recognized authority on the subject. This is the personal website of one of the key figures in the original development team of the game. It's hard to imagine who would be a better authority on the subject of the game. Even if we take a hardline approach and require that Jacobi be himself notable, his involvement with numerous design teams for other subsequent games as well as the repeated RS coverage of him in relation to Chex Quest 3 suggest that he is notable.

So I think I've covered every angle here. I'd welcome external opinions. -Thibbs (talk) 07:09, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Based on your arguments, I support adding both links back to the External links section. They appear to be integral to a complete and encyclopedic understanding of the subject, based on the popularity of the forum with the press, and based on Jacobi's part in the creation of the games and their continued popularity aided by his website. --Odie5533 (talk) 13:43, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) Hello Thibbs, thank you for providing actual reasons for inclusion of these links. I think despite your explanation the first link should still be excluded - though it does contain posts from knowledgeable sources (which technically could be cited, if appropriate), it also contains unverifiable information and opinions from other random individuals, it's obviously a fansite/forum - but your post suggests a possible solution: why not create a new article about either the fandom in general or this site in particular? You suggest that the sourcing is available to do so, and such a page could readily link to this or even more fansites/forums. As to the second link, you'll have to clarify: do you propose linking to the homepage of that website (as you suggest above), or to the specific page that was previously linked? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The multiple reliable sources I posted above do cover the Chex Quest fandom so this topic meets WP:GNG and I can see why you might think that a split would be appropriate here, but WP:WHENSPLIT suggests to me that this isn't the right time for your solution. The article as it stands is well below the suggested size limit for a split and ultimately the Chex Quest fandom, while clearly significant in the context of Chex Quest as a topic, is so intimately associated with Chex Quest that I worry that the two articles would share a lot of duplicated material. I explained earlier that in my view the chexquest.org website is more of a borderline case, but as it's been listed here in the external links section for the better part of the last decade (originally added in this 2005 edit) without causing anyone problems, I'd be inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt. It's clearly relevant to the topic and I imagine that if it was overly inaccurate or opinionated in such a way that readers were confused then it would have been challenged some years prior to 2013. Anyway thanks for your perspective on it, Nikkimaria. I appreciate the full explanation. If some parts of the Chucktropolis website are more appropriate for EL than the previous "gamers" link then we could link them instead. Better to link the most useful page within that website rather than delete it out of hand. -Thibbs (talk) 14:44, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I wasn't suggesting a simple split but the actual creation of a new article, which would presumably cover the fandom in more detail than would be appropriate here. If you don't think that's a viable option, though, that's okay. For the Jacobi site, what about using this link rather than the general or the one previously included? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * A link to that page of the Jacobi site would be fine in my view. Material from the development page I linked above could probably be worked into the body of the article. I'm encouraged that we seem to be in a kind of agreement about this. -Thibbs (talk) 16:07, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Update: As we seem to have reached something like a consensus, I've re-added the external link to Charles Jacobi's page and expanded the development section from his designs page. But I don't think the discussion over the link to the fan forums has reached consensus yet. So I've started a subsection hereunder to isolate this one issue. I've summarized the previous discussion and now we can just wait for more participants. -Thibbs (talk) 15:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

chexquest.org - Home of the Chex Quest Fan Forums
We still need to form a consensus on whether or not a link to chexquest.org should be included in the external links section here. I'd like to see a little more input on whether we should include this website in the external links page. Please comment here if you have a view on this matter. -Thibbs (talk) 15:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) An early version of the link was originally added by 4.228.156.224 in August 2005 in this edit (no edit summary)
 * 2) The modern (current) version of the link was added by Brownrd in May 2007 in this edit (no edit summary)
 * 3) The link was removed in this January 2013 edit by Nikkimaria because it is a fansite/forum containing unverifiable information and opinions from other random individuals (a violation of WP:ELNO point #10), and because a consensus to include it had not been made explicit in talk per WP:ELBURDEN.
 * 4) Thibbs suggested that due to (1) the unusual importance of the fan community to a full and encyclopedic understanding of Chex Quest, (2) the role of chexquest.org as the most active hub of fan activity as described by the reliable sources, and (3) given the fact that key staff from the original development team of the original games use this particular website to distribute new material related to the game,... that this is a rare case where such a link may be appropriate. WP:ELNO is a list of "links normally to be avoided", but Thibbs suggests that the reliable sources in the article demonstrate that this is not a "normal" case because of the notable fan support from chexquest.org.
 * 5) Odie5533 suggested that chexquest.org appears to be integral to a complete and encyclopedic understanding of the subject, based on the popularity of the forum with the press.