Talk:Chicago (band)

"Now More Than Ever" documentary that aired on CNN in January, 2017
On February 10, 2017, someone completely removed all of the text and citations about the "Now More Than Ever" documentary that aired on CNN in January, 2017 and replaced them with new, unreferenced text. None of the removed text or added text is mine, but when I make edits I try to honor the previous editors. I propose some kind of amalgam of the previous text and current text, and definitely some "citations needed" for the current text as it stands.Curious405 (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Ray Herrmann
Can we please discuss the inclusion of Ray Herrmann as a band member, since it seems folks are trying to add him? He is listed on Chicago's "Band" page, which I always thought was the threshold for including people as members. Typically a band wouldn't list a touring musician with a bio and everything unless they are "in the band". I'm in favor of listing him in the Members section. Pinging. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 11:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I hadn't seen that link of yours, which indeed lists Herrmann. I won't stand in the way of him being listed as band member. Binksternet (talk) 16:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Section on Peter Cetera's departure.
I think there is too much information about Peter Cetera's solo career in this section. If people want to read about his solo career, they can go to his Wikipedia page. Also, I don't think he actually began a solo "career" while he was still with the band. He had made one solo album in 1981 and wanted time off to work on a second after the Chicago 17 tour. But Robert Lamm did a solo album in 1974, before Cetera, which is not mentioned anywhere on this Chicago wikipedia page. Did this mean that Robert Lamm had begun a solo "career"? Also, there is no reference given for this statement: "He proposed an arrangement with the band where they would take hiatuses after tours to let him focus on solo work, but the band declined." Curious405 (talk) 02:48, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130515104230/http://www.chicagotheband.com/walfredo-reyes-jr.html to http://www.chicagotheband.com/walfredo-reyes-jr.html
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Bruce Gaitsch as a member and other Personnel Edits
The edits adding Bruce Gaitsch as a member of the band were reverted by user Spike Wilbury with a note to discuss on talk as there was no consensus on this matter. The Chicago album "Night & Day: Big Band" lists Bruce Gaitsch in with the other members of the band in the liner notes. There is also a listing for "Additional Musicians" and he is not put under there, but in with the band members and with no distinction from them. Additionally, the liner notes for "Chicago: The Box" box set in 2003 lists Bruce Gaitsch as a member of the group. There is also a 2007 interview with Robert Lamm (http://www.westcoast.dk/interviews/interviews-2007/robert-lamm-2007/) where it is stated that Bruce Gaitsch was listed as a member for "Night & Day: Big Band" (Question #20 of interview). He does state Gaitsch did not want to be a permanent member, but stepped in for this album. Keith Howland joined the band in 1995 after that album. There is no question that Bruce Gaitsch worked with the band, only whether he was a member or not for that time. If the album liner notes put out by the band in multiple places list him as a member for this work, shouldn't Wikipedia do the same.

For the line-ups, Drew Hester is listed as a member of the band in the article itself, but the line-ups section says he was only a touring member. He was actually a member during the recording and release of "Chicago XXXIII: O Christmas Three" and is listed in the liner notes for that album. That should also be corrected in the line-ups section to correspond with the sourced information contained in the article. The line-ups section also has Dawayne Bailey as a member in 1985, but he joined in July 1986 after the recording of "Chicago 18" but prior to the tour. "Chicago 18" was recorded in 1986 with session guitarists, none of which were listed as members of the band per the liner notes, and Dawayne Bailey was not one of those guitarists. This should also be changed in the line-ups section. The Timeline should then also be updated to reflect the corrections to the line-ups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.102.200.19 (talk) 23:36, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
 * To editor 184.102.200.19: You make good points, but Wikipedia articles require reliable sources per WP:IRS. References to the liner notes and interview should be added as citations IN THE ARTICLE. I have taken the liberty of adding a citation to the interview but I don't have access to liner notes. Suggest you add citations to the liner notes. I might also suggest adding a Notes section to the article and explaining the Gaitsch is/is not a member in a note.Curious405 (talk) 16:15, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Edit Block Request
Please make this page only editable by logged in users. SportsFan007 (talk) 03:57, 11 April 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007

Changes to the Timeline and Band Member Instruments
I have attempted to list guitar as an instrument for Neil Donell and provided the SunHerald article as a source for this information, along with a few other changes. My edits have since been reverted. Can someone review my edits and if agreed, can they be reinstated? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.212.21.197 (talk) 20:39, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Regarding Neil Donell, the official band website for Chicago credits him with vocals and guitar on their website. The same band website credits Brett Simons with bass and vocals. I have also provided a source (http://www.sunherald.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/by-the-way/article205829239.html) that indicates Donell also plays guitar and Brett Simons also provides vocals. Can we reach a consensus to have both of these items restored to the article?

I also changed back the timeline start date for the band to 02/15/1967 instead of 12/17/1967. The February date corresponds sources for the article, namely the Group Portrait box set already cited in the article. The December date is unsourced. I reworded the opening paragraph in the Band History under "Chicago Transit Authority and early success" to indicate the February 1967 start date and include information on the band first going by the name The Big Thing. The band includes the Big Thing as part of their history on their website. This also is sourced by the Group Portrait liner notes. Can we discuss and if there is consensus, can it be restored to the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.212.21.197 (talk • contribs)


 * Sorry for reverting your edits en masse – I jumped to the wrong conclusion that you were continuing the disruption from our friend using IP addresses from Jacksonville, Florida.
 * Regarding Donell and guitar, the Sun Herald article confirms that he played acoustic guitar a few times during the live set under review. But they don't call him "singer/guitarist", just "singer". I don't think his guitar playing rises to the importance of being included in the band timeline. To me, it seems more like him keeping busy when he's not singing. Binksternet (talk) 22:32, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Why not use the category "other guitar" on the timeline to refer to non-regular guitarists for the band? Kart2401real (talk) 22:27, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Request for Wikipedia Articles on Chicago Albums
I have submitted a request to create new Wikipedia articles at Wikipedia:Requested articles/music/Albums for Chicago Live at Symphony Hall (2015), VI Decades Live (This is What We Do) (2018), and Chicago II Live on Soundstage (2018). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.212.21.197 (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Walter Parazaider as a former band member
As of July 2018, the band has removed Walter Parazaider from the Band Members Page on their official website. Parazaider's name now appears on a separate page on the band's website, Tribute to Founding Members. The Founding Members page lists Parazaider along with other former members Peter Cetera, Terry Kath, and Danny Seraphine. There are sources in the article already about his retirement from touring and of his removal from the list of band members. Because of this, I am undoing recent edits and restoring Parazaider's name as a former member as well as removing his name as an the active member. 209.212.21.197 (talk) 18:08, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I removed a reference to a 2018 show where a source listed Parazaider has having performed with the band. It listed four original members performing with the group that night: Danny Seraphine, Walter Parazaider, James Pankow, and Lee Loughnane. Seraphine has not returned to Chicago. The images of the concert being reviewed in the article show Wally Reyes playing drums and Ray Herrmann on saxophone. I believe these were merely errors in the article, so I removed it as a source. 209.212.21.197 (talk) 17:53, 24 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is built on WP:SECONDARY sources. A small change to the band's website is not strong enough to declare Parazaider out of the band. What's required is an explicit statement from the band. Binksternet (talk) 00:36, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I can find several secondary sources that refer to Parazaider's official retirement, including quotes from bandmates which make it clear, in no uncertain terms, that he is done as a performer in Chicago. And I disagree with Binksternet that it's a small change to the band's website. Walt Parazaider is no longer listed as a member of the touring band and appears on the band's tribute page for founders, all of whom are definitely no longer with the band. Why are none of the other founding members on the tribute page? It is because they are still performing with the band. And for what it's worth, Parazaider's own Wikipedia page says that he has retired. Milst1 (talk) 20:07, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I reverted your recent change because you didn't include any references. If you believe the change is correct, feel free to update the Personnel section with references to reliable sources that obsolete the existing cited sources, then update the infobox. —hulmem (talk) 22:02, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Did he just retire from touring, or did he officially leave the band? Kart2401real (talk) 14:42, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

I hope my recent addition of the section "Status of Walter Parazaider" to the article helps with the is he/ isn't he a member debate. Parazaider hasn't performed with the group since 2017, nor has he recorded with them, but members of the group still consider him a member. If you consider that Chicago is a corporation, then he probably still is a member of Chicago as a corporation, but not as a performer. There are different ways of leaving - death (Kath), quitting (Coffey, Imboden), getting fired (Seraphine) and retiring (Parazaider). I suggest the subsection under Personnel, "Current Members" be edited to "Current Active Members" and that Parazaider be removed from that list. Curious405 (talk) 14:58, 16 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Never mind. I found an interview published July 2022, in which Lamm says there are three original "partners" in the band and the rest of the members are contracted players. I went ahead and changed "Current members", showing which ones are partners and which band members are contracted, per the interview.Curious405 (talk) 18:25, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Curious405, thanks for adding all the sources to confirm the retirement of Parazaider. The confusion should be settled now. My only change was to remove the  year of departure on the former members, since the retirement date and year of Parazaider is not entirely clear (2017 or 2018) and Daniel de los Reyes left twice. That could be confusng. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Timeline
There have been a few attempts to change the timeline to group the members by instrument rather than by the date they first joined the band. While I could not find a standard format agreed upon for timelines, the guideline for a Musical Artist Infobox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_musical_artist) suggests listing the current and former members by date they joined the group. By doing the same format on the timeline, we make the article consistent. I do not feel this makes the timeline less readable. I have changed the timeline to list the members in the order of them joining the group to retain the consistency.209.212.21.197 (talk) 19:27, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

It appears the timeline was reverted back to listing by instrument. I still maintain that it is preferable to list by date joined, especially considering that some of the performers changed instruments during their tenure in the band, such as Walfredo Reyes Jr. Also consider that the bassist and vocalist role jointly filled by Peter Cetera, Jason Scheff, and Jeff Coffey respectively was split when vocalist Neil Donell and bassist Brett Simons were both brought in to replace Jeff Coffey. Having the members listed by date joined seems more logical to me. Regards209.212.21.197 (talk) 20:45, 15 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I have to disagree with you. Sorting by instrument rather than date has been the norm for a while, as it's more readable and makes it easier to tell what the lineup looked like at any given time. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 01:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with you that sorting it by instrument rather than date of joining the band makes it more readable. The order of joining the band seems logical and consistent. My main concern is the frequent edits by that keep adding Walter Parazaider back into the current line-up after his retirement from touring, plus unsourced edits that keep adding guest touring members (some who are likely vandalsim) onto the the line-up. Additionally, the way the timeline is currently laid out, the percussion and studio albums fields are not properly displaying. I did try to change this, but my edits were reverted. If at least the percussion and studio albums can be displayed, than this would look a lot better. Regards, 209.212.21.197 (talk) 21:31, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

In my opinion, the timeline should start at 1968. Peter Cetera joined The Big Thing in December 1967 according to group biographer William James Ruhlmann in the essay for the Chicago Box Set (see: http://aln3.albumlinernotes.com/Chicago_Box_Set_-_Page_1.html). The group become "Chicago Transit Authority" after Cetera joined, and after they all moved out to CA in 1968, and before they released their first album, Chicago Transit Authority. The group's web site lists Cetera as a "founding member" (see https://chicagotheband.com/tribute-to-founding-members/). If the timeline starts with 1968 it more accurately reflects the group, "Chicago", not "pre-Chicago".Curious405 (talk) 20:02, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

In response to User Curious405 suggesting that the Chicago timeline should start in 1968, I do not concur with that change. What you noted about Cetera joined The Big Thing in December 1967 is correct. The group website listing Cetera as a founding member notes his tenure with Chicago as being from 1967 - 1985. So, the band Chicago is including the period under it's former names, CTA and The Big Thing, as it's own history and is dating the formation to 1967. I think the timeline in the Wikipedia article should reflect that. That should not imply that I feel Peter Cetera was not an original member and he should absolutely be considered a "founding member" of the band. The bass and vocals of Cetera were the final piece that was added into the equation that made the band into what it became. He did not "replace" anyone when he joined, he filled two roles they were missing, namely bass and a tenor vocalist (https://chicagotheband.com/a-chicago-story/). Cetera was obviously present when they signed their first recording contract and on the initial album so not considering him a "founding member" is not accurate from that perspective, and should not be implied by his December 1967 start date on the band timeline. Regards,209.212.21.197 (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Did Walter Parazaider officially leave or just retire from touring?
He doesn't appear on the latest Chicago Christmas album. This leads me to believe he officially left. Kart2401real (talk) 00:29, 24 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is based on WP:SECONDARY sources rather than analysis by Wikipedia editors. The band has not said that Parazaider is completely out, and the media are largely respecting that. Binksternet (talk) 02:38, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Chicago is recording a new album with songs co-written by Robert Lamm and Jim Peterik of Survivor. Parazaider probably does not play on it. I bet he officially left the band. Kart2401real (talk) 02:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

RfC about Walter Parazaider allegedly leaving Chicago
Should Walter Parazaider be removed from the list of current members? Kart2401real (talk) 19:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Survey

 * No, Parazaider is still considered a bandmember by the band. There has been no explicit announcement of Parazaider being kicked out of the band. In 2017, a reporter writing for the New Jersey Herald described Parazaider as having retired from touring since 2017 "but still technically belongs to the group." Nothing has changed since then. Binksternet (talk) 06:19, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Threaded discussion
The official site implies that he left the band in 2018. It was known before that site update that he retired from touring. Kart2401real (talk) 19:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Chris Pinnick's tenure as a band member
The box set allegedly lists Pinnick as a member starting in 1980, but the box set was released long after XIV and 16. XIV and 16 list him as an additional musician. 17 (1984) was the first time Pinnick was listed as a member. Should Pinnick's tenure as a member be listed as lasting from 1984 to 1985? Kart2401real (talk) 16:09, 23 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Weighing in on this. The liner notes for both Chicago: The Box (2003) and The Very Best of Chicago: Only the Beginning (2002) list Chris Pinnick as a member starting in 1980.  His tenure is listed from 1980-1985 in the following sources (https://insidejazz.com/2018/07/chris-pinnick/) and (https://www.noozhawk.com/article/jeff_moehlis_interview_with_chris_pinnick_of_pockets).  The following article from 1980 indicates Pinnick was a member at that time (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/13993607/the-philadelphia-inquirer/). Pinnick was not just a touring musician, as he and played on XIV, and 16 during this period.  Based on information from the band itself and other sources about his membership, we should list Pinnick as a Chicago band member starting in 1980 in this article.
 * Regards, AbleGus (talk) 04:17, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The box set was released in 2003. Chicago 17 was the first source to explicitly credit Pinnick as a member. Just because he played on Chicago XIV and Chicago 16 doesn't mean he wasn't just a touring musician at the time. Touring musicians can play in the studio as well. XIV and 16 list him as an additional musician. This article just says he ended up touring with them, without actually mentioning when he became a member. He's not credited as a member on Chicago 16, recorded after he started touring with the band. Why not list his tenure as a member starting in 1984, when he was first listed as a member? Kart2401real (talk) 00:38, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
 * We should list his tenure as a band member starting in 1980 as that is what the sources indicate. Chicago: The Box (2003) and The Very Best of Chicago: Only the Beginning (2002) both list Chris Pinnick's tenure as a band member starting in 1980. The 1980 Philadelphia Inquirer article (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/13993607/the-philadelphia-inquirer/) indicates he is a band member.  Pinnick is one of the other 1/3 (there were six originals) in the band.  In the Noozehawk article, Pinnick says he was hired as a side man or session musician on Chicago Chicago XIV, but then they asked him to go on the road with them and stayed on for five years.  He is saying he got the job after recording the album.  The article also states "Chris Pinnick, who from 1980-85 played guitar with Chicago." There are no press releases or sources explicitly saying he "joined the band officially in 1984."  We should not interpret it that way based solely on the Chicago 17 liner notes.  The band considered him a member during that period, he performed all the functions of a band member (touring and recording), and there are sources listing his tenure for that full period.  We should go with what the sources say, and keep Chris Pinnick's tenure listed as from 1980-1985.  Regards, AbleGus (talk) 02:54, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * One can be a touring musician instead of an official member and also play in the studio. O.A.R.'s touring keyboardist Mikel Paris plays keyboards for the band in the studio as well as live. The liner notes of Chicago 16 don't list Pinnick as a band member. Why is that? Kart2401real (talk) 17:06, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The difference is Mikel Paris not listed as a O.A.R. band member, where it is undisputed that Pinnick was made a band member of Chicago, only the timeframe of that membership is at issue. There are multiple sources that date that membership from 1980, including two album liner notes. We should keep this article in line with the various sources and list Pinnick as a member from 1980-1985 as opposed to your recommendation which completely ignores those sources. Regards,AbleGus (talk) 04:30, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Loren Gold
Does anyone have a source saying Loren Gold has officially joined Chicago? SportsFan007 (talk) 20:39, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * There are no sources indicating Loren Gold joined the group. Also, the band has not added him to the band member page or said anything to that effect. We should hold off listing him as a member until we have a source to that effect. AbleGus (talk) 04:24, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * thank you! SportsFan007 (talk) 06:50, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

"Chicago®" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Chicago® and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 15 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. BD2412 T 04:45, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Lead Section Length (April 2022)
A suggestion that the lead paragraph ia too long for this article has been submitted. I think the lead is of suitable length for this article about a group active over 55 years with numerous accomplishments and accolades. I do not think it should not be reduced, and I am against this suggestion. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 06:14, 17 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I disagree. I respect your passion for the band and your probable role as the soft lead on this article. An intro should give a brief overview for those with very limited time and contain only the core of the subject. Details should be moved to the article's body. You can do it. I can too but I'd really rather prod you to do it. When it comes to intros, less is more. Reeeeet (talk) 06:33, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Upon suggestion, I removed the paragraph on the covering some of the album releases which were already adequately covered in the body of the article. I think the remaining information makes sense to keep, but let me know if you think we should trim more here. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 03:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I removed the notice that the lead section is too long after trimming the article. AbleGus (talk) 04:02, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Member list order
According to the official website, Ray Herrmann joined before Walfredo Reyes, so I think we should list it that way on Wikipedia as well. SportsFan007 (talk) 18:17, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I respectfully disagree with your change proposal. While Hermann began filling in for Parazaider in 2005, we have no source stating Hermann actually joined the band prior to Walfredo Reyes. Herrman was first acknowledged as a band member in starting in 2016, and he was listed as an additional musician on the Chicago XXXVI: Now liner notes in 2014. Unless there is a reliable source stating he became a member prior to 2016, we should not use the band member listing order on their website to change it. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 03:14, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, thank you. SportsFan007 (talk) 04:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2023
Yes Add another sub musician, Carlos Marquio (Loren Gold sub) - X to Y change please 2603:8000:9603:B4CD:AC48:EE7C:546D:7903 (talk) 04:15, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 05:56, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Carlos Marquio (Loren Gold sub)
Add another sub musician for Loren Gold which his name is Carlos Marquio who is subbing for Gold 2603:8000:9603:B4CD:AC48:EE7C:546D:7903 (talk) 04:18, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 05:57, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Revisiting the status of Walter Parazaider
@Curious405 @Binksternet Perhaps we need to revisit continuing to list Parazaider as a current member. There are sources with quotes from Robert Lamm in 2022 stating that "there are only three members who are calling the shots. The rest of the band are great guys, contracted players, top-notch guys." (https://rockcellarmagazine.com/chicago-band-interview-robert-lamm-born-for-this-moment), later clarifying those partners as Lee Loughnane and James Pankow. Other sources say Parazaider "officially retired." Is that enough to recognize the 2017 statement that he "retired from touring only" as outdated, and list him as a former member in the Infobox? RegardsAbleGus (talk) 06:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Did Lamm or Pankow or Loughnane say that Parazaider is no longer considered a band member, contradicting their earlier statements? I don't see anything like that in the news. Parazaider is retired from touring, but he may still contribute in the studio. Binksternet (talk) 06:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. Lamm was very specific. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 16:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * How so? What did he say about Walter Parazaider? Binksternet (talk) 16:59, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * AbleGus summed it up nicely above, but there's also a link. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 21:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no. Lamm said nothing about Parazaider not being in the band anymore. Parazaider's not even named in the link. Failed verification. Binksternet (talk) 23:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Parazaider is not even named… in a list of who Lamm defines as exactly three remaining founding members of the band including himself, Loughnane, and Pankow. It's undeniably specific. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 15:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You are pointing to the absence of something, mistaking this as an affirmation. What is absent is Parazaider specifically being named as not being in the band anymore. Lamm's statement about who is calling the shots in the band is not a statement about Parazaider being kicked out. Binksternet (talk) 17:37, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Let me point out the absence of something else as well: Your source calling him a current member of the band. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 21:47, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You're kidding, right? It's cited in the article. Triblive.com wrote on July 25, 2018, "Original saxophonist Walt Parazaider remains a member of Chicago, but no longer tours on a regular basis with the group." Another cite that I put in the article back in September 2018 was from The Virginian-Pilot which said, "Parazaider is still a band member and performs with the group for certain events." Binksternet (talk) 22:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Those two citations from 2018 are prior to Parazaider's Alzheimer's diagnosis in 2021. These articles are probably as close as the band is going to get to clarify the matter: (https://riffmagazine.com/qa/robert-lamm-chicago-edm-inspired-lp-brian-wilson/) and (https://www.ajc.com/things-to-do/55-years-into-the-bands-career-chicago-still-takes-care-of-the-fans/56TLMIGEMNHN3J4ESQAND7KU7M/). Will these suffice to remove Parazaider from the current members?  If not, should we at least put a label "retired" next to his name in the members list in the Navbox and put Parazaider in a separate category from the other members in the Personnel section?  Regards, AbleGus (talk) 07:00, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It is enough, yes. And putting a "retired" member under the heading of "current" members is a contradiction. Remember, the purpose of that section is to list who the current members are… not who they aren't. And we source accordingly, so it doesn't matter that the source doesn't mention Parazaider *not* being in the band. It tells us who *is*. So should the article. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 15:31, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've added more sources that say the same thing as the existing ones AbleGus noted. It's probably excessive and redundant, honestly, but hopefully it's helpful to confirm the point here. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 18:34, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Re: repeated edits… if there's more accurate information out there, please add a source. "The band says" so? Great, but we have to show a reliable, current source where that's the case. Current sources say otherwise, but maybe you have a superior source that is worthy of including here. If so, I'd be happy to add it to the article for you, if you'd like to add the link here. But please stop editing the article with unsourced info. Thanks. —Shada Ng (talk | contribs) 22:10, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The reference that states "Original saxophonist Walt Parazaider remains a member of Chicago, but no longer tours on a regular basis with the group" was from 2018. This does not reflect any future statements and developments that have emerged since then. Dobbyelf62 (talk) 00:20, 12 December 2023 (UTC)