Talk:Children's Corner

6 title english? Not 1ª latin and 5 eanglish. (sory for my english)Ferbr1 13:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

My edit of 2009-06-06
Did this article really need the definitions of "golliwogg" and "cakewalk" which I removed from it, a few minutes ago as I type? Not only are they totally off the topic of the article (which is about a Debussy piano suite), but they're wikilinked anyway, so those who actually need or want these definitions can follow the links and read about these subjects in their proper context. That after all is the point of wikilinks.

Also, whoever added the spurious definitions did so inside the existing parenthetical comment, including a copyright notice at the end; and a later editor, deleting the notice, carelessly deleted the closing parenthesis with it, leaving a dangling open parenthesis with no closure. Remember that this is an encyclopedia, people; if we're to edit it, we've got to be more careful with our edits than that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Korax1214 (talk • contribs) 07:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Note to self: Remember to be more careful with your own edits. :-) Such as signing talk-page contributions, and adding the "s" to plurals. -- Korax1214 (talk) 07:57, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Serenade for the Doll
Two issues:
 * Is it not "Serenade of the Doll"?
 * We say "A very light piece, with (as an exception for Debussy) very limited pedal use."
 * My edition has the following footnote: "Il faudra mettre la pédale sourde pendant toute la durée de ce morceau, même aux endroits marqués d'un f."
 * My understanding of that is that the soft pedal is to be depressed and held down throughout the entire piece, including passages marked f. Maybe my French is up the spout, but if not, it's as far from "very limited pedal" as it's possible to be. --  JackofOz (talk) 09:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi, the edition I used (and not at hand now, so no citation, sorry) was prefaced by a Japanese composer, according to his note, both of you are right, because he states: The preface continued to say "thus the modern edition tend to render the manuscript's version at this matter, not the first edition". You may find similar description somewhere else. --Aphaia (talk) 00:27, 18 September 2011 (UTC) ---
 * 1) The first printed edition says "Serenade of the Doll"
 * 2) In the Debussy's hand-written manuscript it was however titled "Serenade for the Doll".

Michael Hey
Why is Michael Hey's forthcoming organ transcription mentioned in this article? It seems that Mr. Hey is an undergraduate student at Juilliard and has decided to promote himself in this article. Is his forthcoming transcription worth mentioning? --- No more than anyone else's is. Agreed it's just an advertisement. 67.180.44.133 (talk) 17:59, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Subjectivity
The descriptions of the movements of the suite are mostly subjective and unsubstantiated. There are a number of statements and phrases and even words inappropriate for this setting. This is not an essay. examples: "Thanks to the composer's remarkable color effects, it manages to describe snow - not rain - and muted objects seen through it."

"...in the course of the piece and uses the interval of the major second, sometimes as a taunting song so prevalent in European music." (The major second is used as a taunting song? according to whom?)

"Some pianists contend that Debussy really meant "Serenade For the Doll"." citation needed.

"Again, there are a darker moments in the bass near the middle." (why is the word "again" used here?)

" This is a ragtime piece with its syncopations and banjo-like effects. " (provide proof. this is definitely not a ragtime piece as the term is concerned.)

Substantiate with sources, please.

Evanorti (talk) 04:52, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Translation?
It seems like the German Wikipedia has a pretty good article on this topic, complete with some analysis. By contrast, this one seems to be in need of improvement. My German isn't very good, but I could try to translate some parts of that article to English and add it to this one. Perhaps someone who is better at German could help? Does this sound like a good idea? Symphonic Spenguin (talk) 16:03, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The critical views of Debussy's Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum
In the introduction part of Debussy's 'Children's Corner', about 'Doctor Gradus as Parnssum', we have found the descriptions as: 'The exercises resemble Czerny's in many respects and are often boring to practice or listen to for many people; a rather ingenious study in finger independence with a Twentieth Century vocabulary, etc.'

In my opinion, here, some critical views from different academic schools in piano performance have been discussing Debussy's expressions in this melody. It should not have given a closed conclusion that Debussy was resembling Czerny's style in making this piece, because of his respects of Czerny's; but, we can give a half-opened critical discussions of his contributions of inheriting Czerny's approaches of training piano techniques - 'such as ingenious study in finger independence', but also keep his own impressionism root. Surely, Debussy himself isn't Czerny, which means he has his own musical language and expressive approach, rather than Czerny's modernist systematically mechanism-training approach participant-observed from Industrial Revolution. He kept the traditions but made further impressionist development in France. Therefore, it wasn't merely a 'skilful and hard-trained movement', but with 'impressionist colours, harmony, textures, the use of modes and exotic scales, parallel motions, extra-musicality '.

In daily piano education, we also find this movement was made from Debussy's participant-observations of his daughter's lovely and 'childish' activities, and then summarizing these impressions and put them into his daily melodic creations. In this movement, we can find parallel chords and motions, the impressionism theme highlighted and the 'sounds-fizzing and colours-fuzzing musical background' as what was stated in 'special instrumental techniques in performing impressionist music'Impressionism in music. We can also hear the impressionism expressions of his ideas aren't merely so 'simple' as 'skills showing and training.'

In conclusion, I think this is a half-opened and critical discussion, rather than a out-dated conclusion. we can continue to make the up-to-date explorations and contributions in the modifications of this article.

Second view from practical impression
Currently, I was still attracted by his expressions in this piano melody with advanced techniques. But, what I can touch and research was lying on one side, what my abilities allow me to express is on the other side, about which the description would be a little bit grey than vivid colours and scenes blooming from this impressionist flower - Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum. You knew, this feeling is like being pregnant with a dream that if you can't express out by yourselves, you cannot forgive yourselves and it would be much painful. Therefore, I try to pick up one fundamental root to say clearly; and further more, to research some references in future:

In this melody, keyboard isn't really solidified as being formed by only square-pieces of keys; but a surface of the steaming and flowing imaginational liquid, such as a mix of the surface of pool-water, the clouds and the brighten lights, (We can hear some impression-lines from natural landscapes) depending on which, he has magically and spiritually transformed them into his musical painting-brushes and made the technique as 'Short, thick strokes of paint' fast capturing several characteristics of his daughter's lovely and naughty life moments, then further, cherished, purified and extracted their impressions upwards into his dreaming world. Yes, this procedure wasn't merely supported by some advanced techniques of hands only, but rather than which, some beautiful imageries have also been described out. I think, if time and energy allow, more details and pieces of analysis need to be researched and disscussed.

Jason M. C., Han (talk) 08:42, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

The thinking that Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum of Sir Debussy is only an piano exercise, and no better than a piece of etude, must be changed... It killed the vitality of Sir Debussy's impressionism feeling and his imagination, love and friendship with his only daughter Chou Chou. We cannot say Debussy has no relationship with Impressionism. Therefore, we need to keep a Living one on the page rather than a piano-machine-making one... It's the respects of both piano education and piano history! Without Impressionism techniques, there will not be the market!

Further careful discussions and reports, please both see references and my Doctorial Wiki-online Report on Wikiversity: https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Jason_M._C.,_Han#*_Children_are_doctors_for_adults,_as_the_reason_that_they_can_create_some_most_advanced_techniques_than_your_imaginations,_but_with_the_purpose_only_for_happily_playing_their_games._I_guess:_Chou_Chou_must_know_it,_and_father_Debussy_also._Then,_heaven_is_near:

Jason M. C., Han (talk) 12:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Please note that your rendition, and particularly, of "Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum" is no improvement over File:Debussy Childrens corner 1-andreavalori.ogg. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:31, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Suite for piano quartet?
I don't think so. Changing it to "solo piano". Opus131 (talk) 03:33, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Tristan & Isolde ?
I'm aware that people think that there is a citation of Wagner's Tristan & Isolde in Golliwogg's Cakewalk, but i'm not convinced. This should be checked.

2A02:A03F:615C:9C00:9D2E:CDD8:B7A0:8833 (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)