Talk:Childs Restaurants

Untitled
Expansion goals for this article are as follows: 1) Create separate article(s) for key executives, particularly Samuel S. Childs and William Childs. 2) Further research and create articles for certain affiliated businesses, such as Savoy-Plaza Hotel, Fred Fear, Louis Sherry, etc. 3) Expand list of notable locations, with photos as possible.

26 Beaver Street
I'm failing to find evidence of a Childs at that address. Is perhaps 26 Broadway intended? Jim.henderson (talk) 14:54, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

You are correct, the Childs in question was not at 26 Beaver but at 3 Beaver, which was part of the site assembled to build 26 Broadway. Strangely enough the building the Childs was in was apparently a "holdout" that delayed construction of 26 Broadway, which was the Standard Oil building, even though "Standard Oil interests" (Rockefellers?) were supposedly major stockholders of Childs. This is in the designation report for 26 Broadway (which is cited as a reference). I will make the change soon. Peter Greenberg (talk) 03:21, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

There are pictures of 3 Beaver and documentation but it was never listed on any menus. I believe it was originally part of Ellsworth’s restaurants. Childsrestaurants (talk) 14:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

3 Beaver is noted in various newspapers and texts:

•https://www.newspapers.com/clippings/download/?id=51998576 •https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1095&context=gc_etds •https://books.google.com/books?id=YQ1A-Hz3ml4C&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=%22standard+oil+building%22+%22beaver%22+%22childs%22&source=bl&ots=0q7bYIBRTp&sig=ACfU3U0ZCkKnTVFPnARkeJPEv-riZ6wfNw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwivmb-WlbPpAhUhhOAKHRLaDfoQ6AEwDXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22standard%20oil%20building%22%20%22beaver%22%20%22childs%22&f=true

In addition to 3 Beaver St., Childs had locations at 54 (1) and 27-29 (2) Beaver St. • (1) https://books.google.com/books?id=18khAQAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA974&amp;dq=%2254+beaver%22+childs+restaurant&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj8-JjBu7HpAhWhlnIEHQ9sCMwQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&amp;q=%2254%20beaver%22%20childs%20restaurant&amp;f=false • (2) NYT, Sept 28th 1922 Sarahefrancis (talk) 05:09, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Childs Location in Atlantic City
If anyone has solid information on the Childs location in Atlantic City, please share. What I have is from the already referenced Philly.com article. It is at South Carolina and Boardwalk (1301 Boardwalk), it was built in 1927 by George B. Post and Sons, and that it was in poor condition but still standing in 2005. But that is already a few years out of date, so I am not sure that the building is still extant. Also the 2003 landmark designation report for the Boardwalk Childs in Coney Island says that the building in AC is no longer standing. Google Streetview is helpful: it has the intertwined seahorses common to several post-Coney locations. However you can only see the side of the building. I have no other images, and indeed no other solid mentions of this building. Take a picture if you are there. Peter Greenberg (talk) 23:41, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The first Childs in AC was built in 1906, at Tennessee Ave & the boardwalk. In 1917, Childs built dormitories designed by Westervelt for employees and sometime after that period they built large shelters on the beach that advertised their brand. These shelters are often mistaken for the actual restaurants. In 1928, they built a new structure for the corporation at South Carolina. Sadly next came the Great Depression. Eventually this location would become a Child’s Plain & Fancy, a rebranding of the Childs concept. Feel free to contact for sources. Sarahefrancis (talk) 16:09, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

I have since visited Atlantic City on various occasions and have taken pictures of the former Childs location on South Carolina and Boardwalk. The building is extant and has been altered considerably, but some of the details (including seahorses) are still there. The 2003 landmark designation report for the Coney Boardwalk Childs was clearly in error when it said the building in AC is no longer standing; perhaps the author confused it with the earlier building. Sarahefrancis, do you know when Childs vacated the 1928 AC building? Peter Greenberg (talk) 20:02, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

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Bronx location at Lydig & Cruger Aves.
There's a former Childs in Pelham Parkway, the Bronx on the northwest corner of Lydig and Cruger Avenues. The facade is mostly covered up, but portions of the nautical pattern are still visible, such as a strip of the seahorse/trident decoration along Lydig. I'd add it to the article, but I don't have a reliable source, so I'm leaving this note here for reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.203.126.241 (talk) 19:34, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Astoria, Woodside, Ossining, Flatbush and other assumed buildings
There has been a mistaken identity of buildings in Queens, the Bronx and Brooklyn.

Below are my points for refuting the claims that have been made with no historical sources:

First, there is proof this was first a suggestion from a hobbyist, which has never been proven and no historical proof has been discovered for the claim in 15 years of published and internet articles.

2nd, no one can provide a single historical source for the, around 6-12 assumed buildings (depends on the list), proposed from Queens to Ossining. Not one piece of historical material has been provided to back up this claim since it was made in 2005.

3rd, the architectural details of these assumed buildings, in my opinion, are not only un-similar to the Coney Island buildings, in many cases they are not even similar to each other. I’m waiting for someone to provide side by side comparisons with details yet no one has done so over the last decade except for me. (Which seems odd as it is a way of proving design similarities.) When placed side by side especially with the 2nd Coney Island building, I believe it shows a contrast in design and representation of motifs.

4th, Location, Location, Location: Childs had an operating procedure for every one of their locations. They would put a man on the corner with a people counter and he would count the foot traffic for the day. If the numbers weren’t high enough? They moved on to another location. The assumed buildings are not in areas of high enough traffic, they would have failed the location test. This corporate policy is well documented in many publications and history books. It is the reason Childs was so late in arriving to Coney Island in 1917 (which was very late), they were waiting for a location that met their criteria to become available.

5th, There are documented sources for over 130 Childs restaurants but not a single reference to Astoria, Jamaica, Woodside, Ossining, Flatbush, the Bronx or any of the other assumed locations. Not a single instance. Childs was documented in multiple places from city directories to trade publications to newspaper articles. There is an excessive amount of information about Child’s that was never lost to history and does not include the assumed buildings. I have discovered no published anecdotes or memories of a Childs in these assumed locations, but many for the Childs that can be sourced.

6th, no historical society or preservation project has sited these buildings when completing other research on Childs or the history of Brooklyn or Queens. Prior to 2005, there is no record of this assumption and since 2005, no historians have pursued the assumption with research or preservation efforts, even when it has been noted in newspapers that preservation research is underway.

7th, Childs had a standard store layout and procedure for implementing this layout. From fire insurance maps and trade publications, sourced Childs locations stayed with a uniform interior environment that is repeated from Pittsburgh to Atlanta to Fulton St., and does not match the assumed buildings. The shape of the restaurants that are documented is almost cookie cutter. The assumed buildings are every shape and size with multi-dwellings to a single large store. It makes no sense based upon Childs operating practices.

8th, the buildings built for Childs post 1925, were grand in style and implementation, two of the 5th Avenue locations, the Paramount, the Savoy-Plaza, and the 34th St renovation, they were all done with the finest architects. This building blitz in the late 1920s right before the market crash and depression, put the company in a shaky place and Childs did very little construction, purchasing or leasing from 1930-1937. Remember the Childs Family had just been ousted and they handled the real estate arm of the company so the syndicate in charge had to assess holdings before making any big steps. With the Great Depression, not really a time to be opening new stores especially in opposition to your location procedures. They would change over a few locations and open a few storefronts in Manhattan in the late 1930s, called The Host, Inc., which was a cheaper alternative to Childs. Childsrestaurants (talk) 14:59, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Moved from user talk
Hi there,

I made an edit on the Child’s restaurant page addressing a historical sourcing issue. You reverted it.

Here’s the issue: there is no historical proof that those particular buildings are Childs restaurants. It was first printed on a blog in 2005. Then copied to Wikipedia from the blog. Then spread over the internet because it was on Wikipedia. When I tracked the original blog author down, he admits he has no proof of the identification of the buildings.

There are sources for the other buildings on the wiki list. I’ve been researching Childs for months now and I can find none of these buildings in any historical records, histories, directories, newspaper clippings. I have found over 100 other buildings across the US & Canada that can be sourced.

This is very problematic that a mistaken identity was attached to wiki and now has been used to incorrectly identify buildings all over NYC.

I haven’t amended the article because I’m still researching but I wanted clarity and context for those seeing the article right now. As the article stands now, it is misleading and historically untrue.

Childsrestaurants (talk) 22:33, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

and thanks!!! I hit send too soon. Childsrestaurants (talk) 22:34, 24 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Since this relates directly to this article and I have little clue on the matter, I'm moving this here. If there are problematic entries and your search is a thorough as you indicate, then the proper course of action would be to remove it (since proving a negative is rather hard, so it was on the editors who added it that the burden of proof fell). The proper way to indicate that something needs a citation is using citation needed (or just cn for short). Oh, and your username might be problematic, see WP:ORGNAME - you might want to request a change or simply create a less problematic username as suggested at WP:UNC. Thanks, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:44, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Concerned about the issue that many listed locations have no verifiable sources
I’m a bit concerned about this page. There are many listings for “locations” without historical and verifiable sources.

Many location sources lead back to articles that offer theories about the buildings but provide no historical proof that these locations were indeed Childs restaurants. I have been cataloging Childs restaurants for the past 6 months and I can find nothing to verify any of the locations listed in Queens, the Bronx and other New York locations yet I have over 200 verifiable sources locations from New York City to Los Angeles.

I’d like to suggest any location that is just “theory” be removed from this page until it is verified. Due to locations being listing on this page, but never verified as Childs, misinformation has been published excessively over the web and unfortunately in books in print.

Interested to discuss this issue and see if anyone can provide a historical sources for the locations in Queens and The Bronx. Sarahefrancis (talk) 05:28, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

The sources in the article for the Queens locations are self-published as they come from a blog. Even wiki takes issue with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_and_using_self-published_sources Sarahefrancis (talk) 13:47, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

I have finally marked all the properties that have been mislabeled “Childs” over the years. A blog post without sources is not a legitimate source for these locations. Until there are legitimate sources these properties should be marked as unreliable/questionable. Sarahefrancis (talk) 16:51, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

And yes I have been to the original blog posts author and he has stated that he has no source for this conclusion, he was just theorizing. Sarahefrancis (talk) 16:52, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

"Nautical Theme" buildings
I was the one who added the table with the "nautical themed" buildings in the Outer Boroughs of NYC, and I agree with Sarahefrancis that there is no historical documentation that any of those buildings ever housed a Childs Restaurant. I would support changing the statement (which I added to the article long ago) that Childs had clearly vacated all those locations by 1940 with a statement that Childs probably never occupied those structures.

I think that the locations should stay in the table, however, if only to *refute* the claim that these buildings were ever used by Childs. There is considerable (mis)information out there, and at this point taking them out of the article altogether would let that circulate more.

I would also like to know if those locations were at least inspired by either the Childs on the Coney Island Boardwalk or the one on the Atlantic City Boardwalk. That would certainly indicate that they had a powerful cultural influence, which can and should be noted in this article. I currently have no information on who built those "taxpayer" buildings or why they would use some of the motifs found on the Boardwalk locations (though they certainly also made up some of their own, too). Peter Greenberg (talk) 19:52, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Peter! Thanks so much for being in touch. I just sent you an email with my findings about the “assumed” buildings. (For those following along here are my responses about the origins of the “assumed” buildings without links and pictures.) Look forward you connecting and possibly unraveling this mystery.

————————————————— Though they are similar, they are NOT copies of the Coney II building. They seem to have similar knock-off iconography but with very different expression and detail. I’ve based my conclusions about these buildings off of Childs architectural design principals, historical building materials, historical resources and Childs company practices.

Architectural Design The 2nd Atlantic City building (See comparison chart) is architecturally the closest “sourced“ building to the 2nd Coney Island building, that I was able to find. Built after Coney Island’s boardwalk building, it is the only sourced Childs building with sea motifs, but even these two buildings have major differences. If you compare this building to both the Coney Island II (boardwalk) and the supposed Queens buildings, you will note more design differences than similarities. (See chart ) Even amongst the false buildings the iconography is not uniform, different representations of Neptune, the vase/urn, and other reliefs. The shield buildings confuse me, as to how they got thrown into this mix. Seahorses were a fairly common design element in the early 1900s, it’s just a frieze with a bit of joy, so that is not enough to prove a similarity There are no seahorses at Coney Island I or II or Atlantic City in any of the embellishments. Writhing creatures on the Coney II boardwalk building but no seahorses that I could find in any pictures or sources.

By the late 1920s the process for making terra cotta molding was less expensive, opening up terra cotta to middle class builders and business men. Due to this expansion, by the early 1930s terra cotta was considered “old fashioned” and “popular” and an architect like Van Alen considered himself modern, so that was presumably out. If you cancel out the two fairytale beach resort buildings, Childs was Van Alen’s dream job, most of their buildings were clean with geometric lines like the modern architectural sensibilities.

None of these buildings are listed in any of Van Alen’s multiple catalogs:

Building Materials I have a theory about the false Childs building’s materials. I have been researching terra cotta and architectural principles and discovered a terra cotta works in Long Island City from the 1892 to the late 1930s. The office building still stands and is landmarked. You probably are already familiar with New York Terra Cotta Architectural Company. They went bankrupt in 1929 but didn’t close their factory until the late 1930s. I have a theory that these supposed Childs buildings look similar because they bought terra cotta and ceramic veneer from NYTCAC, who most likely had inventory sitting in its warehouse languishing due to bankruptcy and the Great Depression. Pre-made casts were becoming very popular in the late 1920s. It would have been cheaper to install these pre-made elements on local buildings rather than send them out of state.

In addition, I posit that the design elements are ceramic veneer as opposed to terra cotta. First they are so brightly colored and need little restoration almost 100 years later. That is very unusual for colored terra cotta. Notice the 2nd Coney Island building‘s extensive restoration. Yet the false buildings are still bright and seem to have little water damage with absolutely no restoration. That leads me to suspect they are ceramic veneer which was less expensive, held color better and was not as susceptible to water damage. Examine the assumed buildings and notice the clarity of color and the lack of crumbling elements, I feel this points towards ceramic veneer rather than traditional terra cotta but I have no historical or material proof.

Historical Sources There are numerous historical sources for the false buildings in Queens, The Bronx and Brooklyn, that do not connect to Childs in anyway, some are listed below, note that Queens has changed the names of major thoroughfares through the years. Only two of the buildings even connect back to one another. These false buildings seem to be built as multi-business concerns with multiple small retail stores on the bottom and offices above. One architect did come up in connection with the false Brooklyn building, Murray Klein and I’ve listed one of his pre-1924 buildings first, which has a similar feel to the false buildings.

I have been through fire insurance maps, phone directories, travel guides and on and on, I can find absolutely nothing to back up that these buildings have any connection to Childs except for the iconography, and some of that has been wildly misinterpreted, like the shields and seahorses.

Company Practices Last, Childs was obsessed with location. They had a formula and a process for picking out the busiest locations in the busiest sections of the busiest cities in the Northern Americas. They had employees stand on corners for days, tallying the foot traffic and pedestrian exposure. They only placed restaurants in high foot-traffic areas, near subways, ferries, sports arenas, shopping districts and so on. These false buildings are in low traffic areas, distanced from transportation or landmarks. They make no sense in regards to the location principals that Childs had established.

Here is an article from 1920 detailing the process:

I do think they are copies that were inspired by the popularity of the Child’s Coney II building. I do not believe they are connected to Childs or one another or even that they are made from terra cotta. I believe they were pre-made molds that were sold to individual developers to dress up their suburban retail and office buildings. ———————————————————- Sarahefrancis (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I definitely support changing any statements on the page to clarify this misinterpretation of the design elements and locations. Making it as clear as possible that these are NOT Child’s buildings is my priority. Proving a negative is impossible, which is what those who have published this information in the past, would like to happen. It is up to those who posited the theory first to prove it yet because of this Wiki it is now in books. Sigh. Sarahefrancis (talk) 16:49, 14 October 2020 (UTC)