Talk:Chinatown, Vancouver

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History?
Is anyone able to provide information about the origins of the area, why Chinatown was created in this location, how development progressed, when it was first referred to as Chinatown, etc? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.173.125.119 (talk) 15:16, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

sam kee building
some say 4'11", others 6'. it would nice if someone could verify the depth of the building, as there is one in Pittsburgh that is 5'2"

I believe the 4'11" measure is street-level; the bay windows on the 2nd floor make it 6'; and/or including the "areaway", the sub-sidewalk space, but that may be even wider than 6'. The city's heritage department probably has the correct figure.Skookum1 20:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I gave Sam Kee its own page, but couldn't find anything definitive on measurements. The Skinny Building, I believe, is 5'2" on the inside. 4'11" looks to be right for the Sam Kee building on the outside on the ends, but the bay windows look to be what takes it up to 6 feet. Online sources vary, but 6 feet is the most common, I'm guessing because that's what Guinness used. Then there's the underground part... Bobanny 01:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The building measures 6' at the ground level. I measured it once. The upper bays add another 2' to the depth and the basement incorporates most of the sidewalk depth to the street. --Lookingatdamascus 01:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Hongcouver coined by who?
The article mentions that Hongcouver was coined by Chinese Canadians ... either back this up with a reference or delete it. I personally do not find it offensive, but this info is not relevant. I've read the discussion thread on this, and if kept, wonder if other similar sorts of nicknames should then be applied to Punjabi town, little Italy or our old Japantown etc... as I have heard many other variations on these communities. Flytrap canada 17:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The cite for the creation of the Hongcouver tag was the Nat'l Geographic article of that title, back around 1985-1987 (pre-Expo I think) in which it was explicitly stated that the term had been coined by transplanted teenagers bragging about "taking over" Vancouver; where the NatGeog's source from that came from I don't know.Skookum1 20:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Little India, Punjabi Market and Japantown, like Chinatown, are localized geo-ethnic nicknames; Hongcouver was an epithet applied to the whole city, or rather to the effects of the takeover/migration on the whole city, and is not an area-specific name. Of course lately one comment, re where's Chinatown and where's not, runs "but the whole city is Chinatown".  This is one reason I took out the 41st and Victoria "Chinatown" listing on another page (list of CAnadian Chinatowns); if you include that location, you have to include, oh, 1st and Renfrew, 41st and Joyce, Metrotown, Kingsway & Knight and half-a-dozen other areas that qualify under the increasingly loose definition of "Chinatown" (as enhanced and elaborated further on the main Chinatown page, which IMO has gotten incredibly overblown and a-contextual (like the Hongcouver article, altough that's on a lesser scale).Skookum1 20:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually I just went and checked UseNet Archives for its first provenance there: alt.peeves item but note also soc.culture.hongkong item, which mentions a 60 Minutes program called "Hongcouver", which I now remember; so maybe my premature Alzheimer's got NatGeog and 60 Minutes swapped all this time. I just checked 60 Minutes on-line archive but of course they don't go back that far; but I'm sure there was something in the Nat'l Geog, too, and I remember it being a cover article with a sunset-lit shot of the West End on the cover, or at least on the lead page for the article.Skookum1 02:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Chinatown size
Can only use google search to find proportion of articles saying one thing over another. Searching second largest chinatown in north america gives a big majority of articles saying its vancouver (ignoring wikipedia articles, since that is what's being discussed currently). In any case, google isn't a good "source" of information as much information is incorrect. It's better used as a measure of PROBABILITY that the fact is correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.139.11 (talk)
 * I don't buy that Vancouver's Chinatown proper is the second largest in North America. Several places, including New York, Toronto, and Oakland make that claim, and pretty much all such claims come from sources with an interest in having the biggest this or that, i.e., tourist bureaus and the like. A million tourist sites claiming Vancouver's Chinatown is the largest won't make it so. In a case like this, where a fact is contested, I think it needs a more reliable, i.e., disinterested source where the original source of information is apparent, i.e., the statistical source that came up with the basis of the claim. What does biggest, or second biggest mean? Population? Area? is this counting Richmond, which many would challenge that that counts as "Chinatown" at all? The population of Chinatown? Does it include Strathcona, or just the "historic Chinatown" area? I suspect this is an old factoid that gets worked into the local mythology just through sheer repetition, like the Downtown Eastside being the "poorest postal code." In lieu of a more convincing source, I'm reverting it to "one of the largest," because as it is, it is unencyclopedic and a dubious claim. Bobanny 01:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If you just consider the physical size of the historic district then Chinatown is one of the largest - and rare for historic Chinatowns Vancouver's has expanded over the years not contracted like others, notably Victoria's - but the number of residents its quite small even taking in account Strathcona. --Lookingatdamascus 01:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Chinese New Year?
Did anyone get any quality pictures from the Chinese New Year parade this year? I haven't got mine developed, but if I can find a good one, it might be a nice addition. - TheMightyQuill 04:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Voila. I almost forgot I took some photos til I saw your note here. Bobanny 09:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

International Village Clock
Anyone know anything about the clock on the top of the building on international village? It appears to be visable from the air. You can find it on google earth at

If anyone has any info, please let me know. Cheers. RichMac (Talk) 17:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know anything about a clock at international village, but the building's visible in the photo taken from Harbour Centre at the Victory Square (Vancouver) article if you want to take a peek. bobanny 18:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Now I see it, and you can sort of see it on the roof in that photo, it's that semi-circle thing with Roman numerals. Maybe it's a jumbo sun dial. The post office roof is kind of whacky too; heliport, basketball court, and a giant postage stamp. bobanny 18:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Any historical significance to "Canton Alley"?
Just east of the Millenium Gate is a pedestrian walkway which is currently signed by the city of Vancouver as "Guangzhou Alley (Canton Alley)".

Is there any historical significance to this (now non-functioning) back alley, and was the name changed to the modern pin yin alphabetization due to a request from mainland China (which donated the Millenium gate, back in 1986)?

Pine 22:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll reserve comments on the mandarinization of Vancouver's historical Chinese culture, except to state that it's a new kind of cultural colonialism - "here, we'll give you this nice thing marking our turf, so long as you do away with your own language's version of the name" etc......the historical name is Canton Alley and it's a p-off that China would insist on Canada/BC/Vancouver changing its own history to conform to China's political wishes. That being said, Canton Alley and another in the same area that I recall, Shanghai Alley, were old "back ends" of Chinatown in teh days when this area was warehouses adjoining the wharves which lined the north side of False Creek in this area (before land-fill moved the waterfront to teh south side of the viaducts).  Abbott Street dead-ended about a half-block south of Pender, I don't even think Keefer connected at that point; up until Expo 86 there were three or four-story warehouses...I remember a third-floor walkway over Canton Alley; don't remember any retail shops....it was largely empty and derelict by the '80s; as I recall buildings in this area were destroyed as part of a movie production in advance of the Expo-era improvements/modernization of the area.  Of course, if you want to find out about this you'll have to ask it with the Pinyin name, unless you're at the VPL or Vancouver Museum or Archives, where it's more likely to be indexed under the English version of the name "Canton" - btw what happened isn't "alphabetization" so much as the supplantation of a Mandarin name on top of the historical English derivation of the Cantonese form of the name "Kwangtung"......to me pinyinization smacks of an imperial kowtow....the alley got its name because of the Cantonese background of the businesses and people located at it, it had nothing to do with Mandarin or with northern China.Skookum1 (talk) 12:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's something I found here: http://www.vancouver-chinatown.com/english/attraction/alley.html

"Between 1890-1920, early Chinese immigrants settled in what was known as Shanghai Alley and Canton Alley. By 1890, Shanghai Alley was home to more than 1,000 Chinese residents. Much of the community's activities and entertainment evolved around a 500 seat Chinese theatre built in 1898.

Canton Alley was created in 1904 as a Chinese style courtyard surrounded by two parallel rows of buildings running South from Pender Street. The Alleys were the convergence of vibrant nightlife, opera music, shopping, political and cultural |activities.

From information gleaned through old newspapers, personal records and historical documents, a team of experts, historians and researchers prepared 8 panels detailing the history of the Alleys. Panels depict notable figures such as Yip Sang, Won Cum Yow, Dr. Sun Yat Sen and the once vibrant Sing Kew Theatre." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.203.80.15 (talk) 23:49, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

image on Chinatown page
is on the Chinatown page; see my comments in Talk:Chinatown; the picture has red lampposts, but the buildings shown are mostly NOT in Chinatown; could someone go to the same location, and shoot up Pender Street instead of across it.....Skookum1 (talk) 12:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

physical area
The City of Vancouver website's map of Chinatown, which is presumably that of the Chinatown Business Improvement Association and also of the equivalent (or roughly so) heritage district, is 18.4 hectares. I determined this using the measure tool on the provincial basemap, following the outline on the City of Vancouver map; for the record here's the data set using the street grid as laid out on the city map: Specific population figures for those postal codes -if the postal cods even coincide with the given boundaries, will take a bit longer to work out. For those unfamiliar with Vancouver, it should be noted here that much larger parts of the city would fall under the loose definition that is too much at work on Chinatown and related articles; in the definition used in Vancouver, only the area of the map in question is what is considered Chinatown ,despite much larger commercial districts and a huge Chinese population outside this district. Comparisons of scale to "new Chinatowns" with no precise boundaries like Flushing, Queens or Agincourt, Ontario are not relevant. I'll ask editors from SF and NYC to determine the physical area of the official Chinatown areas, to try and solve this; there may be larger new Chinatowns, area-wise, but of the historic Chinatowns, Vancouver's has for LONG been ranked second in area...there's a related discussion on my own talkpage about what is and isn't a Chinatown, both in the Vancouver context and beyond.Skookum1 (talk) 23:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Area	18.4 hectares
 * Point 1:	123° 6' 22.1" W 49° 16' 46.0" N
 * Point 2:	123° 6' 19.7" W 49° 16' 52.3" N
 * Point 3:	123° 6' 15.6" W 49° 16' 51.8" N
 * Point 4:	123° 6' 1.3" W 49° 16' 51.3" N
 * Point 5:	123° 6' 1.4" W 49° 16' 53.0" N
 * Point 6:	123° 5' 56.1" W 49° 16' 52.9" N
 * Point 7:	123° 5' 56.3" W 49° 16' 51.0" N
 * Point 8:	123° 5' 50.8" W 49° 16' 51.0" N
 * Point 9:	123° 5' 49.1" W 49° 16' 39.4" N
 * Point 10:	123° 6' 7.9" W 49° 16' 39.7" N
 * Point 11:	123° 6' 7.9" W 49° 16' 45.7" N
 * Would the Golden Village in Richmond count as a "Chinatown"? єmarsee  •  Speak up!  23:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, expressly because Richmond City Council and Vnacouver's Chiantown Merchants' Association et al. oppposed such a naming, as did the non-Chinese residents of Richmond.....certainly by the "standards" applied to Wikipedia article about "Chinatowns" it would b e, but when it's officially NOT a Chinatown, it shouldn't be labelled as one; see this discussion about one author's four-way definition because of the use of the term for non-historic Chinatowns; I'll be back with links to other talkpages with related sciussionss; part of the problem with �Thmc1 is he's using a shifting definition of "Chiaatotw" to suit his promotional purposes, while insisting on strict definitions elsewhere; if his loose definition were used in Vancouver's case, most of the City of Vancouver and nearly all of Richmond, and about half of Burnaby, would be "Chinatown".......Golden Village is no more a Chinatown than Kerrisdale, Oakridge, Kingsway, South Victoria/South Fraser or Metrotown are....unless the loose definition invented by Wikipedia peacockery were to apply, which it shouldn't. "New Chinatowns" do exist, but in normal English and especially by non-Chinese they are never described as "Chinatown"; that's always a particular place/area, and has a certain set of associations/history accompanying it; see Talk:Chinatowns in Canada and the United States and Talk:Chinatown for more on this....

Does size matter?
Would there be any point in suggesting stepping back a bit, and asking whether relative population and size are such important issues to be debating? A small community can have a huge cultural impact on a region. Does size really matter here? There are ten thousand times as many people in mainland China as there are in SF Chinatown. Does that make it ten thousand times more important more important than the communities in Vancouver or San Francisco?

Chinatown,_San_Francisco makes an observation that as a historian with a statistical bent, I find potentially interesting -- that there's a growing number of Fujian dialect speakers. What are the reasons behind that? What are the changes in the community? Why are they happening? Are these planned changes, or happenstance?

In Chinatown, Vancouver particularly, except for naming a few buildings, "history" doesn't go back much further than the 1970s when a sign bylaw was passed. I live near SF Chinatown, I don't need the Wiki article to tell me about its history. I've never been to Vancouver, and the present article doesn't give much more than a rundown of current ethnic groups and tourism.

If we dug a little deeper, maybe superficial comparisons by size would become less important? Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 14:39, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * the pissing contest over whose Chinatown is bigger is being led by User:Thmc01, though there were others before him trying to establish New York as the biggest and the mostest.....the hard-facts definition is that Chinatown is a place NOT a population, and that each of Vancouver, SF and NYC have prescribed boundaries on the place of Chinatown; Wiki editors of a certain bent seem intent on labelling anywhere with Chinese stores a "Chinatown" (if in small case, I could almost live with it) and in the case of NY "spillover" areas adjoining Chinatown proper are being included; and the ranking the User:Thmc01 rants on about has to do with total Chinese populations in teh whole metropolitan area; if the same standards were applied to Vancouver then "Chinatown" would be about 2/3 of the city, as there are many concentrations of Chinese business well outside Chinatown proper. As for your comments about history, I totally agree; online sources are scant, I know a bit more historical detail but for lack of having any of my old library on hand (I'm far from BC now, in NS) I can't add much that would be cited and because of the volatility of these articles I avoid adding anything, except for correcting gross errors/claims.  Vancouver's own Chinatown site is "fuzzy" on history and like a lot of p.r. conscious sites avoids or glosses over a lot of detail, and isolates certain things for promotion.  All Wiki articles are works-in-progress of course....Skookum1 (talk) 16:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

info on new developments & controversy
This Vancouver Sun piece has details of the many new developments and its effects on the area.Skookum1 (talk) 04:18, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The full citation: WhisperToMe (talk) 10:29, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Mackie, John. "The heritage battle for Chinatown" (Archive). Vancouver Sun. Sunday November 15, 2014.

Master's thesis
I understand that there are times masters' theses are acceptable to cite, but I don't know how much this one is cited: WhisperToMe (talk) 10:25, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Nakamura, Mayumi (University of British Columbia). ""China Round the Corner": Vancouver's Chinatown and the Chinese Community in a Changing "Multicultural" Society" (Archive). UBC. April 2005. See profile

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