Talk:Chinese Canadians/Archive 1

Could you provide evidence about the difficulties "newcomer Chinese" have in Canada? I'm not implying that they don't have any, but the article would be more persuasive if evidence were provided. Trontonian


 * The major difficulty is to live on, that is, to pay the all tax and the grocery. And that requires money, so I already mentioned "difficult to get into any of the careers of their choice". But remember, they are always "some", perhaps "many", but there's no "all ___ find it..." But if you're looking for statistical evidence, that I do not have. Statistic Canada doesn't do unemployment on such a detailed level, I think.


 * --Menchi 00:07 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Maybe you are asking why, if they're qualified, unable to get the jobs they like. A main reason is the lack of guanxi, or "network based on relationships". Some newcomers do have influential and "successful" relatives or good friends already in Canada. A minority have White acquaintance and who are willing to help eagerly. But another minority came here alone, with only the nuclear families. And perhaps due to an introvert nature or chance or a series of disappointing failures, the families remain can't establish deep or helpful guanxi. Such families encounter the difficulties I mentioned that caused their, or at least some of the members', one-way "returns". --Menchi 00:20 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

While doing some edits I found many other assertions which need to be documented. For example, how do we know that the Fujianese immigrants of the late 20th century were uneducated? Where does the information about acculturation (or the lack of it) come from? And so on. Trontonian


 * They -- the adults -- mostly require translations, so I don't think they were educated very well in English, an essential part since middle school and definitely universities. If they're educated, they'd know this is illegal, and they'd immigrate legally, like most people. And if they're poor and educated, I don't know how they paid for their universities. Refugees who came from boats are generally farmers and fishermen. It's not like poltical refugees. This is a common knowledge among Taiwanese (especially from newspaper), because we actually get, or used to get, a lot of Fujianese boat-refugees as well. Most were sent back as well.


 * And acculturation cannot be measure by statistics or science. It's a continuum. Linguistic command can be a key indicator, but there is also an understanding of the way European-Canadian think. And those activities, such as overwhelmingly listening to Chinese pop can easily reduce one's chance to be acculturated, since the time spent on Canadiana is greatly reduced as a result.


 * Thanks for bringing up those points that could use some clarification. I don't know everything about Chinese Canadians, even though I'm one myself, but those are what I understand.


 * --Menchi 00:07 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

So in other words you can't substantiate the assertions in this article (I realize it's not originally yours) and you are not even interested in substantiating them. Your statements about Fujianese, for example, are justified by speculation. As for scientific measures of acculturation, there are tons of them. I was peripherally involved 20 or 25 years ago in a study by Ming-Che Yeh of acculturation of Chinese-Canadian school children in Toronto. He found clear patterns of acculturation using reliable measures. It was a lot more interesting than the speculation and stereotyping (of Fujianese, for example)in this article. Trontonian


 * Ain't it interesting that no one has ever wanted to know just what Ming-Che yeh found? And I even said it was interesting. John FitzGerald 19:14, 20 November 2005 (UTC) (formerly Trontonian)

Stereotypes
First of all, I think there are a lot of stereotypes in this article. But that's ok, eventually they will be worked out, some will stay, and some will be re-worded...

Nuclear family refers to a mom,dad,2 kids, as far as I know. Immediate family refers to the mother-father-children unit. I think you mean to say immediate family, not nuclear.


 * As I understand "nuclear family" it means immediate family who stick together, not just 2 children. JohnSankey 23:14, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand your point about Chinese students going into mostly engineering, science, and commerce? Does Chinese culture really value these areas higher than others? Or a better question, do they value them more than non-Chinese Canadians do? (I don't think so). It makes sense that there are not that many Chinese in English majors programs for example, because it would be very difficult for someone to do this as a second-language. Although, this is not even correct because I knew a guy who was in English at UBC and English was his second language. I think the point in the article should be restated so that it doesn't generalize and stereotype so much. Perhaps mention that it is obvious why there are more Chinese students in Engineering than say, English.

dave 05:15 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * If you find a stereotype "All Chinese Canadians wear red", change it.


 * Yes, the science/commerce inclination is how many Chinese Canadians themselves perceive so and white high school teachers wonder why. And there are always exceptions (I know one Taiwanese-born Canadian who majors English too).


 * Maybe this CBC woman's autobiography will give you some ideas that it's not my own observation. --Menchi 05:54 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Why is the following POV and deleted?


 * Such attitudes and ideas that Chinese Canadians, first-generations or their descendants, are "foreigners" in Canada who replace "Canadians" and their jobs is still a persistent and unofficial image in the Canadian society.

Haven't you seen people who speak like this in newspapers, in classrooms, on TV? Some politicians even think like this. This isn't just about jobs either. Some non-Chinese parents explicitly state that their kids couldn't get into universities because the Asian kids push the required % up. This isn't my "point of view". Are you deny this just because you and your family and friends don't think or say so? Maybe you think they are the "minority" and don't represent Canada -- that's a possibility what I conveyed: I said, "a...image in" not "the...image of". But are they really that rare? I don't have the stats, but that's not what I wrote anyway.

--Menchi 05:54 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't know if I deleted that or somebody else did. However, although i will grant that there are people who think like that, I think it needs to be re-worded and the prevalence of such views clarified before it gives a clear picture of Canadian society. In particular it needs to be substantiated. If you think people who think like this are a majority then provide the evidence. Seeing a few people say something on the TV doesn't mean that everybody is saying it. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, and among other things an encyclopedia is supposed to be factual. As I said before, I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you're presenting this as an encyclopedia article then there should be some evidence that you're right about the contentious points here. By the way, I removed "uneducated" because no one seems able to substantiate the validity of the description and because consequently it seems highly offensive to me in many ways. If you have data about the refugees' educational attainment then put it in the article. I also replaced "facilities with "detention camps," which is more precise. Trontonian


 * I submit that a majority do not think like that, but that a significant number of Canadians do. Wikipedia is not a legal document, it's all of us trying to get things right. Stereotypes do exist. JohnSankey 23:14, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Menchi, I believe I deleted that line. I believe it is too stereotypical, and has no facts to back it up. I guess you could say that I don't agree with it, so that's why I took it off. There was enough doubt in my mind that it was the opinion of the majority of Canadians. I am a 4th generation Canadian and I'm from Richmond, BC which is 33% Chinese (according to Statscan). Of course I see them as "foreigners" for the first year or so, everyone does that's what they are. That's what anyone is until they settle down in their new location. I am in Ontario now, and I consider myself somewhat of a "foreigner" there now. However, I do not consider all Chinese people in Canada as foreigners. They are Canadians. Especially if they manage to get citizenship, they are Canadians. I have never thought that Chinese people are replacing jobs in Canada. This is not the 19th century. In fact in engineering, people who's first language is English still have the upper-hand as far as getting jobs. The article even says this, that many people leave to get jobs in China/Hong Kong after university. But the influx of Chinese into BC has caused the economy to grow proportionatly larger, so I don't feel they have replaced anyone. And about pushing up the % to get into university, I don't mind. If they can get into university that's fine, I don't mind. If it makes it harder for non-Chinese to get in, I don't care. I'm just glad we don't have affirmative action like in that United States. It would be stupid to let in a certain percentage of non-Chinese every year, if there were more-qualified Chinese students. dave 18:04 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The problem with this article is that it deals heavily in what seem to be stereotypes -- of Chinese, of Chinese Canadians, and of non-Chinese Canadians. I suspect that at least some of these seeming stereotypes could be shown to have some validity in the aggregate, though, and the article would be vastly improved if they were. I am disappointed that the authors are not interested in doing that. If they don't do it, eventually the speculative nature of the assertions made in the article is going to have to be noted. Trontonian


 * It's like saying "Many First Nations have been living in poverty and have low education". That has statistics, because people did it. And the fact has been broadly broadcasted. Last time I checked, "Chinese Canadian studies" isn't popular. I don't claim to be an expert, but I wrote what I know. They are not my speculations, they may be based on only the majority of the group, but we have met those people in our lives everyday. They are not the Fu Manchus.  They are real, in our lives. And if you think living beings and their ways of lives are "stereotypes". Sure, go ahead and disappoint at the author's lack of interest, as you put it, and change "many" to "98.43%" and "some" to "34.3%".


 * Menchi, the point is that we don't know that your depictions actually represent living beings. People we meet in our daily lives rarely constitute a random sample of the population. If I were to infer the characteristics of Canadians from the ones I meet in my daily life I'd say they were well-educated left-wingers. A few years ago I could have divided them into two groups: well-educated left-wingers and horseplayers. Twenty-five years ago it would have been well-educated left-wingers and alcoholics. My point, which I will make yet again, is that this article seems to be on to something, but that in the absence of evidence of the phenomena described it gives us little reason to believe that it is. Trontonian


 * Chinese Canadians does include people of all walks of lives. Heck, there's the politician and there's prostitute. But are most people in those two extremes of professions? No. Are most people respected or hated? No. But because a relatively recent history in Canada, we still have a strong link to each other -- unique traditions, a sense of honour, shame -- that make the traditional familial lives (especially rooted in the parents) that differ from the White majority. As a result, many of us, say, eat rice more often. (And nope, not all of us can use chopsticks.) The majority of recent immigrants represent an especially narrow sub-sect of the Chinese population of China, so there are even more specialization.


 * Those famous Chinese Canadians are just a small # who are very "successful". Actually, all but half a dozen Chinese-American I have met (not necessarily know) are within the first two-generations. This is just the beginning. Divergence will surely arrive, but they have barely started. Again, should we and can we say that "There is about exceptions to this phenemon", "Please note that a minority also", "However, there is occasionally", "But some do in fact", to everything we write. No, they are not absolute truth. But they are truth.


 * --Menchi 19:25 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Menchi, I agree with some of what you are saying. However, stereotypes are stereotypes no matter what the context. They are always harmful to everyone. They are either harmful to the Chinese Canadians, for placing them into a grouping which they may not belong too. Or they are harmful to non-Chinese Canadians (like when the article previously said: "most Canadians think of Chinese Canadians as foreigners"). And as Torontonian said, stereotypes do not belong in an encyclopedia. I do like the history section, as there are lots of books written on the Chinese in the 1800s and early 1900s by Chinese and non-Chinese authors, and I feel there is a lot of "fact" out there on this topic, having read one fiction-based book and one non-fiction book on this topic myself. The Education, Chinese-born, and Canadian-born sections need some work to make them NPOV through negotiations with all editors. dave 23:23 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree, now I re-read the "Most Canadians think ...as foreigners". It does not sound particularly sweet or endearing.
 * I think "the now" (esp. Education, Jobs) is as important as "the then" (History section).
 * It seems my grasp of "stereotypes" is incomplete, so, please A the Q on "occasional difficulties" one section below.


 * --Menchi 00:25 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

- Did Canada really have a minimum wage in the 1800's? Rmhermen 14:58 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I doubt it. I guess he just meant "very low wages".  It should be re-worded I guess.  dave 18:04 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * No, I didn't think of the term in the politics-economics way when I wrote it. (I didn't study either at university!) I reworded ("below minimum" -> "at minimal"). --Menchi 19:25 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Chinese-Canadians not speaking English or French
"Many first-generation children who spend their entire childhood and adolescence in Chinese regions may find, without proper guidance, that it is extremely difficult to fit into the mainstream Canadian culture, and have thus isolated themselves individually or in a small group of Chinese-speaking Canadians."

I think this is stereotypical IMHO. Actually, I think most Chinese adapt to Canadian culture very well, which is helped by the fact that Canada is a very accepting country, and by the fact that there isn't anything really special about Canadian culture...it is somewhat of a "melting pot", as they say. I don't know if it is true that they isolate themselves. I don't consider Chinese people hanging out with Chinese people "isolation". Of course if you move to any country, you will meet up more often with people of the same language. But isolation is more extreme. The Chinese people I went to high school with were very active, and definitely did not isolate themselves. In university I became friends with a couple Chinese students in my class and the three of us actually used to sit next to each other, shared our homework answers, and did a project together. I am not trying to ignore the problems that some Chinese may have when moving to Canada. I just think that this is not NPOV. dave 23:23 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * "Most" Chinese do not adapt to Canadian culture - just take a look at the StatsCan percentage (over 50%) of Canadian residents of Chinese origin who speak neither English nor French. And, it takes appreciable effort to understand many of those who do speak English because of the huge difference in grammar between Chinese languages and English, also that they are a bit lost without their tone system. And, it's not just 1st-generation Chinese either - just visit your local Chinese takeout to check. JohnSankey 23:14, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


 * So, the sentence "most Chinese-Cdn mix into the non-Chinese Cdn society nicely with occasional difficulties" is a better description of the contemporary Canadian society, hence not stereotypical? --Menchi 00:22 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * No, I don't think that is a better way of putting it. I think the paragraph should be removed, because it is not a unanimous opinion, and everyone's experience is different. An encyclopedia should have facts, and then direct people to authors, books, web links, etc.. where they can find more personal opinions of Chinese or non-Chinese Canadians. dave 02:03 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Dave, the quote was quite accurate on the first generation Chinese children though the wording of "isolation" and "extremely difficult" would be considered a bit harsh. Sharing homework answers and project duties do not classify anyone as isolated or involved because it's simply too little interactions. In Cegep, I studied with students of Iranian, local Canadian, Russian, Vietnamese and Quebecois origins and still participated in Chinese-related activities than anything else. IMHO, If the people, peers who the first generation Chinese frequently shared their hardship, feeling, experiences with are also Chinese, we would considered them "isolated". Note that "children who spend their entire childhood and adolescence in Chinese regions" is the idea of the quote. Canadian high school Chinese children, first generation or not, does not spend their entire adolescence in Chinese regions.kt2 01:37 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * First of all, if someone spends their entire childhood and adolescence (from ages 12-19) in China, then how can they still be called "children" as in the quote? I agree that the words "isolation" and "extremely difficult" are not correct.  dave 02:03 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * okay, "children" is irrelevant. Here's my revision: "Many first-generation Chinese Canadian who spend their entire childhood and adolescence in Chinese regions may find, without proper guidance, that it is difficult to fit into the mainstream Canadian culture, and have thus connected themselves in a small group of Chinese-speaking Canadians." kt2 06:13 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Sorry Dave. Though an encyclopedia entry should redirect people to authors, books, web links, etc.. where they can find more personal opinions of Chinese or non-Chinese Canadians, would you regard firsthand information from a first-generation Chinese Canadian who spend one's entire childhood and adolescence in Chinese regions more accurate than authors, books, web links, etc.? Unfortunately not enough mainstream researches have been done collectively on this issue. kt2 06:13 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately the Wikipedia article can't be signed by, first-generation Chinese person, so the reader doesn't know who wrote the article. The articles have to be unbiased, in other words, it has to be written by people on all sides.  You're confusing the issue, I was referring to books, web links, etc.. written by Chinese people, which contain first-hand experiences.  My point is that it is okay to link to these personal opinions in a "see also:" section, however, they do not belong in the wikipedia article, because it is supposed to be NPOV.  Of course the other alternative is to re-write the non-NPOV sections.  dave 15:36 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * In your opionion, If a writer can confirm that one is first generation Chinese person, would you take the info as as accurate and unbiased? kt2 19:23 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Re: all this talk about Chinese immigrants having a tendency to isolate themselves from the larger society to a greater extent than other immigrants, I think this can be proven in hard numbers. Earlier this year Stats' Canada released part of the latest census, and one of the very startling statistics was the large number of people living in Canada who spoke Chinese but not French or English. I strongly suspect that has a great deal to do with the large numbers of Chinese in Canada, and their concentration into various "Chinatowns" (IIRC they're now the largest ethnic group besides old-stock French and English Canadians). I suspect there's a similar trend with large, concentrated Indian communities in BC. -- stewacide 06:54 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * That's precisely the sort of information required in this article. As I keep saying, I'm not denying the truth of the article, but we've been given little reason to place much confidence in it. Provision of evidence for the assertions made in it would also give us a much better idea of the position of Chinese Canadians. Resisting learning English or French is not unique to Chinese, for example, and being able to compare Chinese to other groups which have resisted learning English might help clarify why some Chinese have resisted. Trontonian


 * I agree with Trontonian here, and also in what he said in his first post to this discussion at the top. I'm not arguing with the content exactly in the article, however, it is totally just the opinion of a few Wikipedia editors who wrote the article.  It should contain more hard facts, and less personal opinion/speculation.  dave 15:28 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Since the way in which this article could be improved has been made clear by a number of people, I'm going to leave it alone from now on. There is the kernel of a good article here, and if some work were done on it it would be a lot better than anything that could be achieved by deleting the questionable parts. At the moment I don't think it will persuade anyone, either, so its chief bad effect is that its taking up space unnecessarily. All the best to anyone who does try to turn this into the article it could be. Trontonian


 * I will echo Trontonian's sentiments a bit. Personally I'd like to let the discussion rest for a bit, and maybe I will return later.  dave 17:33 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Don't give up yet, because I found some information at Stats' Canada:

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Analytic/companion/lang/contents.cfm

The 2001 Census reaffirmed the position of Chinese as Canada's third most common mother tongue.

''Almost 872,400 people reported Chinese as their mother tongue, up 136,400 or 18.5% from 1996. They accounted for 2.9% of the total population of Canada, up from 2.6% five years earlier. Italian remained in fourth place, and German fifth, although their numbers declined. Punjabi moved into sixth, and Spanish slipped to seventh.''

I'm still looking for where it lists the number of Chinese speakers who don't speak French or English (I remember it being very high)... -- stewacide


 * Found it! See: http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/analytic/companion/etoimm/canada.cfm


 * 29% of Canadians born in China can't carry on a conversation in either official language, as well as 13% of those from Taiwan (as I suspected, 15% from India can't either). Besides being pretty scarry (how do these people function in society?), I think it indicates pretty strongly that the larger the population of speakers in Canada the less likely immigrants are to learn French of English. If it was simply a matter of Chinese speakers having a extra-hard time with European languages, you'd expect to see a similar trend among other immigrant groups who speak non indo-european languages (Korean, African languages, etc.)- which we don't.


 * The large spread between those from the PRC and ROC, I think, would be due to the fact that people from Taiwan are most likely well-eduated independent immigrants, while those from China are largely poor refugees.


 * I also, while looking for this, found a study from Health Canada which indicated that Canadians who spoke neither official language received worse healthcare. I think that's worth noting.


 * So, should I add all this or does someone else want to try? Since I'm not Chinese-Canadian myself I'd rather defer to someone else. - stewacide 19:51 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * IMHO, 29% is pretty low actually. It depends on which way you look at it I guess.  I think it's low enough, that it doesn't really prove that they have trouble adapting.  It just shows that there has been a lot of immigration in last 10 years, and also that English education in China isn't universal nor perfect.  One also has to consider the survey question that was asked.  I speak French, but if I where asked whether or not I could carry a conversation, I usually shake my head, and can't decide yes or no.  I can struggle through a conversation perhaps, but it all depends on your level of confidence I guess.


 * But regardless, thos stats would go great in the article. Then the article doesn't have to rely on opinion in any form, instead the reader can form his or her own opinion based on the facts that are presented to them, just as you stewacide, and I have intepreted it in different ways.  Put it in yourself (if you have time), you are the one who found the stats, and read the websites, so you'll be most efficient at entering it in...  Thanks for finding that!  Is there anymore data on Chinese-canadians on statscan?  Or any data comparing them to other cultures?  What I'd be interested in seeing is a histogram showing the percentages of students in each level of ESL instruction in schools.  This would give good demographic information.  Also, if there is any information on statscan about the number people who consider themselves chinese-canadians in canada for every year since 1867 (or something like that).  That would be intersesting to see the history...  Anyways, maybe I'll do some digging on statscan myself one day.  dave 01:13 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * 29% is signifigant because it's the highest of all measured countries of origin. It's even more signifigant because the next highest country (India) has only 15% not knowing an official language.


 * I'll add it myself then (...if someone else hasn't already) -- stewacide 05:12 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, the 29% applies to only those born in China, not Chinese-Canadians in general, nor Chinese-speaking Canadians in general. India is not a fair comparison because it was a British colony. ViewFromNowhere 06:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

One small suggestion for the main editors of the article. For the education section, can you provide some info saying that "chinese children attend (public or private) elementary/secondary school", and then maybe mention something about the ESL program in Canada (I don't know much about it, only that there are different levels). Mention that it is X number of hours per week and that they are in the normal classes for the rest of the time (I think). Also mention more about the cantonese/mandarin classes, are these after school, and/or weekends? Are there some Chinese students who go to chinese school 5 days a week, instead of public school? Also, as for the Chinese students' interests as far as engineering/math/science/commerce, vs. other topics, I think this should be proven with fact. I thought that these were the preffered studies of choice for all cultures, so I'm not sure how this is unique to Chinese-canadians! I think if we provide all of the above, plus more, than this will provide a complete Education section, and make it less of a stub. dave 17:47 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

-

The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.
I added a "The neutrality of this article is disputed" to this page because I think it is fair to say that certain parts are under dispute, as can be seen by the discussions on this talk page. dave 17:57 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Good idea. This article still seems to me to be an exercise in ethnic stereotyping of Chinese Canadians. Assertions are made without supporting information. Trontonian


 * I added it back in. ViewFromNowhere 02:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's been 2 or 3 years since anyone has raised a POV issue. Can someone update the POV issues? --JimWae 04:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

- I think this article could use more recent historical information, including information of the founding of the Chinese Canadian National Council in response to an episode of W5 (on CTV) that aired in the late 1970s alleging that "foreign" students were taking away university spots from Canadian students (it presented all Chinese students as being "foreign" regardless of their actual citizenship). Also, some information on the comments made by former Deputy Mayor of Markham Carole Bell asserting that the concentration of ethnic groups is a cause of social conflict would be nice. (She essentially stated that the influx of Chinese immigrants in Markham were "driving the backbone of Markham away ... the people who run festivals, coach kids, organize Brownies, Scouts..."

I think that talking about actual events that have occurred (and were widely covered by the press) would put the difficulties that the Chinese Canadian community have undergone into perspective. --Darkcore 05:22, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Chinese Canadians immigrating to the U.S.
I am in the Los Angeles area and I have a college friend who is Chinese Canadian, an immigrant who came from Hong Kong. I also have a college professor who is Chinese Canadian. Then there's a waiter at a Hong Kong-style Chinese cafe I frequent and she says she immigrated from Canada (indirectly from Hong Kong).

Is there any evidence to show there are numbers of Chinese Canadians leaving Canada for the United States? Perhaps to bypass the tougher entry requirements when immigrating directly from Hong Kong or to feel our warm weather?

172.195.224.146 17:13, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * In many cases, it is because it is believed that job opportunities within the United States are better than those offered in Canada

- In the beginning of the article, it said that the Chinese were the 7th largest ethnic group in Canada (as shown in a link at the bottom of the article). However, in the "Chinese-born" section of this article, it says that the Chinese are the 3rd largest ethnic group behind the English and French-Canadians. I changed the beginning of the article to match that part of the article, but I'm not sure which one is right, can someone confirm it? Habs24 04:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

It depends on your definition. If you consider those whose cultural language is English or French to be not ethnic, then 3rd is correct according to the 2001 census. If you include all languages, they are 5th. And, in the StatsCan listing, Chinese is the 7th line ("Canadian" is 1st). That census asked what the ethnic origin of your ancestors was. (What am I supposed to say? I'm a mix of 7th-generation Canadian via a UEL to 3rd-generation from a British colony in Ireland, with in-between chunks of Gaelic Irish and highland Scot thrown in; my Y-chromosome is Norse!) There is also the "first language spoken and still understood" question of earlier censi, there is the "visible minority" question (do you look Chinese), or, do you speak only one of the Chinese languages not English or French. The one unmistakeable figure is the last, that 586,000 people in Canada speak solely a Chinese language, not English or French - more than double the next group (Italian). (Remember, there are 17 official languages in China, hundreds more local languages. Many of the northern Muslims consider themselves Mongol, not Chinese. And, native Taiwanese and Tibetans generally don't consider themselves Chinese either, although Beijing does.) JohnSankey 15:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You do realise that this is a gross generalisation? -- Миборовский U 02:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

"They are by far the largest group who speak neither English nor French."
I'm going to remove this sentence. The StatCan reference is about people whose mother tongue is Chinese and cannot speak neither English nor French. The article is about people who are ethnically Chinese-Canadians. Not all Chinese-Canadians can speak Chinese or have Chinese as the mother tongue. ViewFromNowhere 06:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

unexpanded names to be removed
Why are names of individuals mentioned if there is no further info on them? A snippet next to the name is meaningless and should be expanded via another link page.
 * If your referring to the red linked names in the list section, there are only a few that don't have articles. If you feel you know enough about a person, anyone is free to start and contribute to articles.Luke! 03:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess what I am referring to is the cheap plug some people give themselves. It's kind of silly to have a name listed, which you and I may recognize...but 99.9% of the rest of the wikivisitors have no clue of. So I would suggest that if a name is to be presented, please expand on the individual's achievements and credentials.

The other thing I see is the list becoming loooonnnnnnng and unmanageable. Let's give it a good start by alphabeticalize it... then break them down into groups of whatever. Flytrap canada 19:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

50% of the Chinese Canadian population are rich
About 50 percent of the Chinese population in Canada, are rich. It may sound unbelievable, but it is true. Before 1997, many rich Hong Kong Chinese immigrants have immigrated to Canada. In addition, wealthy Taiwanese immigrants have settled in Canada. Recently, Chinese international students who are rich enough to afford education in the West, have also settled in Canada. When these groups are combined, the population is large, am I right? But there is still more. There are still more rich Chinese groups that most Canadians neglect to heard. They are corrupted mainland Chinese officials who've fled to Canada and Chinese prostitutes who've made their fortunes from corrupted officials in China and then fled to Canada. About 50 percent of Chinese Canadians are rich and the other 50 percent are just poor or middle-class Chinese Canadians. (UTC) -Zeppo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.140.235.202 (talk) 03:01, January 28, 2007 (UTC)


 * Two things:
 * 1)How do you define rich?
 * 2)Where are your reference(s)? (internet site, newspaper article, etc.)

--The Dark Side 03:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

"Rich" is a subjective term. From one perspective, one can say that everyone living in Canada is rich. That translates to 100% affluence, or perhaps, "rich" in your terms...and some people living in a third world country is "poor". That's a fairly rich observation you made. Now define rich. Flytrap canada 20:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * To me, rich defines that the value of your home plus the total income in your saving add up to one million dollar or more. 16:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC) -Zeppo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.19 (talk) 12:36, March 20, 2007‎ (UTC)


 * Inflation and wage increase means that we would all be rich in the years to come... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.20.192.54 (talk) 03:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Successful, rich and educated people generally don't have children or have less children. If you are poor and uneducated, you will have more children. That's just the fact of life in developed countries. Sonic99 01:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Chinese term
In Canada there are several terms for "Chinese Canadian". Two terms in particular (one of which is not mentioned in the current article) are:


 * 1) 加藉華人 (lit. "Chinese person with Canadian citizenship", corresponding to the English term "Canadian Chinese")—an older term which stresses the Chinese identity; Canadian citizenship being secondary
 * 2) 華裔加人 (lit. "Canadian person of Chinese ancestry", corresponding to the English term "Chinese Canadian")—a newer term which stresses the Canadian identity; Chinese ancestry being secondary (This term is listed in the current version of the article)

The term "加拿大華人" looks like a straight translation from English. It's in current use, too, but I'm not sure about if there are any similar nuances in meaning. (Just by looking at the form of this compound, it probably just means "Chinese person in Canada", but the WP editors certainly would like to want citations for this to death.)—Gniw (Wing) 18:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

time to rid our community of self promoters
Now what defines a "prominent" Chinese Canadian? As the list of names grow longer...I can't help but to notice a number of names that are in red colour. In this wiki community, that's a word without a link to more info. So, if a name is placed on this list, there should at least be the courtesy explanation of who the individual is. Otherwise, it's just hollow.

I recognize a few of the names and admit that the majority of the people on the list has contributed to the overall Chinese Canadian identity, but let's keep the list real and respectful. Flytrap canada 20:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

kristin kreuk
ok why does it say shes not living in canada and living in usa? im pretty sure smallville is filmed in british columbia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.142.82.222 (talk) 05:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Yes, the Smallville studio is in Burnaby, BC (about 2 blocks from my house but I've never camped out to catch a glimpse of any of the stars :)). Southsloper 22:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Canadian-born Chinese
Most of the Canadian-born Chinese were born from Hong Kong immigrants. Since Hong Kong was part of the Commomwealth, it was easier for Hong Kong people to immigrate to Canada. A few Taiwanese immigrants came to Canada in the 1970s and 1980s and had children. Sonic99 05:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You need to provide some sort of reference to support that claim. A personal assertion doesn't count for Wikipedia's verifiability requirements. Beyond that, your edit would be a lot better received if it were presented in a civil manner. Please consider that changes made without explanation, deletion of a controversial subject (Taiwan), and aggressive comments such as "should be edited by a real asian, not by a caucasian" do not give your edits the appearance of "good faith". --Ckatz chat spy  09:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for providing a source. Based on that reference, I have tweaked the immigration text to include Taiwan as that is clearly indicated by the census data. I'll try to find some information on the "birth" section. --Ckatz chat spy  18:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Chinese in WWII
Can someone expand the section of Chinese in WWII? appreciated. Jackzhp 23:35, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. I could add more, but that it would have to spun off into a separate article as it would probably violate the undue weight rules. Cheers!--A.S. Brown (talk) 17:40, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

List of prominent Chinese Canadians
What are the criteria for inclusion in this list? Kappa 20:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Demographic Update
I was thinking the 2001 Census data would be getting kinda old and thus under represent the number of Chinese Canadians. Upon checking at [|Statcan], I see that there will be 2006 Census data available on 2 April 2008. I leave this note in the hope that updates will be made as soon as that date arrives. AnthroGael 08:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

This article has become a racist joke
This article has become little more than a reinforcement of popular myths and is highly patronising to many people around the globe as a result. In particular, this article:

1.Falsely implies that most Cantonese, Hokkien and Taiwanese peoples are of Chinese ethnicity. In fact nothing else can be further from the truth. In fact, their ancestors were the victims of one of the worst genocides in world history at the hands of various Chinese armies. Once subjugated, the existences of distinct Cantonese, Hokkien and Taiwanese ethnic identities (as opposed to 'regional' identities) were 'conveniently' forgotten by most people in the world (and tragically to this day). Thus from this point of view, the label of Chinese ethnicity was a brutal imposition upon the Cantonese, Hokkien and Taiwanese peoples against the wills of the said local peoples.

2.Implies that Taiwan is part of China. The reality is that Taiwan is **NOT** part of China and will never be for the foreseeable future. Over the past several millennia, the Taiwanese have maintained a distinct ethnic identity totally separate from the Chinese ethnicity. Therefore, to describe the Taiwanese as 'Chinese' is not merely wrong; it is downright offensive.

3.Fails to make any real distinctions between the concepts of ancestry and ethnicity whatsoever. There is more to ethnicity than simply being descended from a particular ancestor. Naturally, ethnic identities evolve and may even change over time (but not counting genocides). One could even argue that the concept of ancestry is nothing more than a political and social misconstruct since a recent scientific study has proven beyond reasonable doubt that all modern humans were descended from Africans.

The above points, in particular, MUST be taken seriously. Someone who is an expert on the subject matter of this article must edit this article IMMEDIATELY to remove the blatant biases in the article (including population figures).

Note: I would have attempted to correct some of the biases in the article, but owing to the fact that most of the required references are very difficult to obtain (and generally not found on the internet), I have called for an expert to fix the article instead.122.105.145.169 (talk) 10:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Since no one has responded to the above concerns in a meaningful way, I have flagged the article as biased and inaccurate. 122.105.149.241 (talk) 12:16, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Gee, and here I thought the POV tempalte was because of all the usual lies and misrepresentations about the Chinese and their history in Canada. I have corrected some of these, though they will re-occur as also in other related articles bracuse these lies are so common in the "official" story as presented by Chinese Canadian organizations and repeated by the govenrment and gullible reporters....among these lies was "Their contacts with non-Chinese were restricted as well, officially and unofficially" which I removed as completely false; it makes it sound like comings-and-goings were controlled and almost as if they were Jews in Nazi Germany....such opverblown hype and outright falsity is all too tpyical of "reliable sources" which aren't reliable at all; other false or distorted claims abound, some with fact tags.  I also would maintain there's a difference between "Chinese Canadian" and "Canadians of Chinese descent" - the latter would be Canadianized, i.e. "assimilated" or "bananas" or "halfbreeds" as pureblood Chinese are known to call them, while hte forme woudl tend to be those who identify primarily as Chinese first, Canadian second.....this same comparison applies to German Canadians and Canadians of German descent etc.....Skookum1 (talk) 15:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Curiously, most members of those Chinese armies spoke cantonese. 99.244.189.70 (talk) 08:57, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Disputed: 89% of CBCs competent at writing Chinese
I dispute the statement that as many as 89% of Canadian-born Chinese are competent at reading and writing Chinese and can recognize up to 4,000 characters.

According to Wikipedia, and based on my experience in China, even many Chinese nationals can't recognize that many:

Literacy requires the memorization of a great many characters: Educated Chinese know about 4,000,[9][10] while educated Japanese know about half that many.[8]

So I consulted the quoted source, "Canadian Social Trends":

About 3% of the [Canadian] population, or 872,400 people, reported a Chinese language as their mother tongue, that is, the language (or one of the languages) that they learned as a child and still understand.

However, only about 790,500 people reported speaking a Chinese language at home on a regular basis, 81,900 fewer than those who reported having a Chinese mother tongue.

This suggests some language loss has occurred, mainly among the Canadian-born who learned Chinese as a child, but who may not speak it regularly or do not use it as their main language at home.

Based on rough calculations, 9.4% of all Canadians who have a Chinese mother tongue (including immigrants and not CBCs who do not have a Chinese mother tongue, or at least do not claim to have one) do not speak Chinese at home. The report also states that in 2001, 25% of Chinese in the country were Canadian born. It's safe to assume that, of the 81,900 who didn't speak Chinese at home in 2001, a large majority can be drawn from the roughly 218,000 Canadian-born Chinese. Based on these figures, my conjecture would be that up to or over one-third of all CBCs do not speak Chinese at home, or anywhere else for that matter, much less read and write. 221.222.228.177 (talk) 07:51, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, I know a lot of CBC's and very few of them can write fluently. I find that 89% number very dubious, I'd very much like to see a citation.  TastyCakes (talk) 01:16, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a misquote. The first half is from the StatsCan report [Chinese Canadians: Enriching the cultural mosaic]. The second half was added somewhere along the way. It reads like an editorial addition from a community newspaper, or something along those lines. I'm going to remove the non-sourced part and tag the remainder with a reference to the StatsCan article. Attaining that level of literacy in Chinese is a massive undertaking. It requires years of dedicated study and immersion for anyone studying the language. You don't get it for free just by having Chinese parents. Agentchuck (talk) 19:55, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

JUST TO CLEAR SOME THINGS UP
"""Implies that Taiwan is part of China. The reality is that Taiwan is **NOT** part of China and will never be for the foreseeable future. Over the past several millennia, the Taiwanese have maintained a distinct ethnic identity totally separate from the Chinese ethnicity. Therefore, to describe the Taiwanese as 'Chinese' is not merely wrong; it is downright offensive."""

The article does not imply that Taiwan is a part of China. What it states is that not every Chinese person that immigrated to Canada did so from CHINA!! Whether you believe it or not there are Chinese people living in Taiwan and other parts of the world.

Although i do have to say that the population stated for Chinese in Canad right now i believe is wrong. I have just checked the 2006 census, and unless i got my data all wrong there should be 576,980 Chinese in Ontario rather than the 644 thousand it says on the site.

On the refenced site, government statistics. It states that there are 576,980 Chinese in Ontario and 1,216 million in Canada. How come these figures missed about a hundred thousand Chinese? Not to mention that it states there are 500 something thousand Chinese in Toronto, on the referenced government site it states 486,330. I find it funny how people here mention the stupidest things, but not the actual stats on the Chinese population.

"""" 50% of the Chinese Canadian population are rich""""

Do you even know how to look at census data? Where are you getting this figure from? The Chinese in Canada actually make less on average than the rest of the population. Look on the government website. Next time at least try to back up your claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenzo4000 (talk • contribs) 02:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Wo Hing and Yick Yee/Yip Yee
Article request, sort of, though I may start the stubs when I have certain books on hand again for citation purposes. These are two of the various prominent rancher-merchants of the Lillooet-Bonaparte era; Chinese merchants were among the first to purchase newly-surveyed townsite plots in Lillooet and elsewhere, many survived as businesses for years; Wo Hing, proprietor of a store of the same name visible on most early photograph's of Lillooet's Main Street, also owned a hog ranch farther north on the west side of the Fraser which is the namesake of a Hogback Mountain in the area (or Hogsback, maybe). Yee Yip, also known as Yick Yee, was a cattle rancher in the Hat Creek Valley, who opened a store in Cache Creek. Both that operation, though continued by his widow and sons after he died, and Wo Hing's, lasted into the 20th Century; I don't know what their arrival dates or when their stores opened, though some city directories exist in certain libraries which may list him, as was common in directories for towns in that part of the Interior; they weren't alone, and there's bio articles begging to be written about certain frontier and gold-town Chinese personalities; see Omineca Gold Rush for a picture of Ahbau, one of the area's more famous miners; the Cayoosh Gold Rush, the workings entirely Chinese, with 300 miners working a six-mile stretch of the creek of that name, which is adjacent to the town of Lillooet, was one of the richest of the 19th Century's many BC gold rushes; Chinese merchants and ranchers throve in areas the non-Chinese had long moved on from, and were more patient with the gold workings and stuck it out when the quick paydirt was gone, finding even more through better techniques etc. There's a few early bios out there, mostly because of recent published works e.g. Alexander Won Cumyow....seen various things on early Victoria merchants, and Port Douglas, Yale etc...Wo Hing's store lasted until WWII, and according to a certain book, was still alive at the opening of the Japanese invasion of China, when $40,000 was raised for relief for Shanghai by the local newspaper publisher Ma Murray, who'd survived the attack on Shanghai herself. I guess what I'm getting at is there's more to Chinese Canadian history that could be written about than wealth and ecuation statistics and other percentages; about individuals, about success stories and not just litanies about immigration, voting rights, the head tax, the railway etc. There's a fair number of modern bios, and key political/rights bios and politicians, but also there's stories of the frontier merchants and ranchers, and mines and miners, and of successful stores, some of which grew into empires - I'm curious what happened to Wo Hing's wealth, and where his family moved on to, down to the Coast is all I've seen; the Yick Yee Company I think relocated to Victoria or somewhere and survived for a while, or became something larger; this is in Lorraine Harris' Halfway to the Goldfields, though you'll only find that in used bookstores or online at amazon etc. Just trying to offer creative suggestions, and to see if anyone out there is interested in frontier-town mine/ranch history; it's hard to tell the story of the goldfields, or of early settlement, without covering this stuff; it's overshadowed by the railway and immigration politics, but involved at least as many Chinese Canadians, and certainly more better-off ones, than did the railway, that's for certain...I wish there were more published works on this, there's not, other than older histories and various references in current papers I've seen, or in books such as Cole Harris' Thte Resettlement of British Columbia, which is on Googlebooks...he talks about the Fraser Canyon towns and benchlands becoming dominantly Chinese, when not native, after the main gold rushes had moved on, all through the quiet years between the gold rush and the coming of the railway. And of certain events here and there; but local histories will often have material on individaul Chinese, and you'd be surprised where some of these stories are to be found...Atlin, Dease Lake, the Omineca and the Peace, of course the canneries nearly anywhere, and so on...it's not all about railway camps and Chinatowns, in other words....it's all out there, just not in one handy place....Skookum1 (talk) 08:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Removed "Canasians" from top paragraph
This refers to all Asian-Canadians. If you're a Japanese- or Korean-Canadian, you're still "Canasian." It isn't limited to Chinee-Canadians, so I took it out. Leaving a note here bc making a change to a top paragraph seems like a big deal.

Also changed "one other ethnic group" to "another ethnicity." The "multiple ethnicity" responders in the quoted statistic could be a mix of various ethnic groups. Thanks. Pumpkin888 (talk) 23:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Keanu Reeves is Chinese?!
I love the guy, but our Wiki page says "Reeves's mother is English, and his father is a Hawaii-born American of English, Irish, Portuguese, Hawaiian, and Chinese descent." At most, he's 1/4 Chinese, if not less. I propose removing him from the linked "List of Chinese Canadians." If we include anyone who has any Chinese relative in their distant past, we're going to have a very long list! Pumpkin888 (talk) 23:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * So what? Adrienne Clarkson falls in the same category, doesn't she?  Maybe there's a need for a separate Canadians of Chinese descent (just to be fair)...presumably for those of mixed-blood, but we dno't do that for Norwegian Canadian, German Canadian, Italian Canadian etc.  If somebody's part-Chinese, even 1/4 to them they're Chinese Canadian (as well as Italian Canadian or Irish Canadian or whatevr else they may also be.  It's interesting that him being Hawaiian is here; in Hawaiian traditional culture, you're Hawaiian if you're as little as 1/32nd or less Hawaiian; if you have any Hawaiian blood at all, you have pono, as it's called, and cultural/social equality/respect from full-blood Hawaiians; this can also apply to people who are Hawaiian in spirit, it seems...evidently a more inclusive ethnic identity, but I've heard similar from people with Gypsy, Sami, Native Canadian/American etc....where do you draw the line?  Not sure - on the Cherokee people page, wherever that redirects (probably Tsalagi), or on its talkpage rather, there's a discussion about who to include and who not; Cher and Burt Reynolds self-identify as Cherokee, as do many Americans, but there's a debate by "real Cherokee" if they're Cherokee or not, i.e. if they have the "right" to call themselves.  I submit that ethnicity is about self-identification....not about how others define you; I suggest you consider that when deciding who to cut away from their Chinese-Canadian-ness.Skookum1 (talk) 00:20, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, Skookum. He's still there. I didn't delete him. I just brought up the question since I've never seen or heard of him identifying himself as Chinese-Canadian. I did a quickie online search and couldn't find a source in which he does. (There are a few sources that say he's ethnically 1/4 Chinese, but that's all). He's also on the list of Asian-Canadians which  says "Keanu Reeves, actor of partial Chinese and Hawaiian ancestry." I think that is clearer than simply saying he is Chinese-Canadian. Clarkson has much stronger Chinese ties, being born in Hong Kong to Chinese parents. She's also spoken about her Chinese background and is often identified by media like the CBC as the "Chinese-Canadian governor general"  Thanks for your comment! Pumpkin888 (talk) 16:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Too Many Names on Chinese-Canadians List?
I counted 88 names on the top part of the list. And that's before I got to the not-in-Canada part and my eyes crossed! I think some of these names were put up with good intention, but don't quite rise to being in an encyclopedia. There are many people with long, successful careers in academia, media, science, etc -- but unless they rise to being a public figure, or do something particularly prominent, they shouldn't be on here. I think we should look at Chris Luk (engineer), Jonathan Liu and Tim Lim, none of whom seem to have a ton of secondary sources out there. Maybe someone who knows HK pop culture better can sort through the entertainers -- some are stars, many are not. Pumpkin888 (talk) 17:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Chinese embassy page should not be part of "Chinese Canadian"
To be frank, it's offensive. I like China (and many other countries). But the Chinese embassy does not represent Chinese Canadians. Does the French embassy represent Quebec? Of course not. What I am surprised by is that Wikipedia keeps on adding it even though I removed it a number of times from the "See Also" section. The Chinese embassy represents the Chinese government and the Chinese people and represents them to the Canadian government and people. It is NOT tied with Chinese Canadians. Chinese Canadians or Canadians of any other ethnicity need to get a Chinese visa to visit China. I believe people at Wikipedia don't have an understanding of ethnic issue and citizenship. Please remove the link.

32.60.108.73 (talk) 01:17, 24 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure what your talking about its in the see also section not part of the article. The link is simply to help our readers find articles related to the topic at hand -- it has no bearing on the article its self. Best to read Layout before making POV removals. See also Not censored is something we take very seriously especially when it comes to China related articles.Moxy (talk) 01:24, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Misleading section
The section with chart titled "Canadian cities with large Chinese Populations" seems to be inaccurate and improperly labeled. The referenced link does not work. The title of the chart refers to "Canadian cities," but these numbers clearly do not correspond to the cities listed but (probably) are intended to correspond to the metropolitan areas they are apart of. The problem is, these numbers do not even match up to the numbers provided by Stats Canada for the metropolitan areas they belong to. For instance Abbotsford, BC on the CC Wikipedia page says it has 13,550 Chinese people living there. On the Stats Canada page it has only 2,075 Chinese people listed as living in Abbotsford. Also there isn't really a Greater Abbotsford or an Abbotsford metropolitan area to take into account here. There are issues with the other "cities" listed as well.

Perhaps this chart should be taken down. It could be recreated by someone who has the desire to make it accurate.

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/details/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CSD&Code1=5909052&Geo2=PR&Code2=59&Data=Count&SearchText=abbotsford&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

Air.light (talk) 20:49, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Source in Japanese about Chinese Canadians
On CiNii I found:
 * Kusuyama, Ken (楠山研). "Early Childhood Education for Chinese in Canada: What should be taught? What shouldn't?" (カナダ在住華人の就学前教育カリキュラム ―何を教え、何を教えないか―; Archive). 九州地区国立大学教育系・文系研究論文集 (ISSN 18828728) 2(1), 12, October 2014. 九州地区国立大学間の連携に係る企画委員会リポジトリ部会. See profile at CiNii. See profile at Nagasaki University's Academic Output SITE.

Since there are an abundance of sources in English, French, and/or Chinese it's not necessary to link to this from the English article. However if someone starts an article in Japanese this will be useful. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:45, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Afghan Canadian which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:15, 13 April 2015 (UTC)