Talk:Chinese Democracy

Merger proposal
The article history of Chinesse Democracy was created several years ago in attempt to control the constant flow of rumors and leaks while this album was in it's decades long recording process. I'm not sure how wise a move this was to begin with and now the two articles are basically redundant of each other. I propose all information be moved to this article -I'm pretty sure it is all here already-- and that article be redirected here where it should be and where it can easily be maintained.

Source for industrial and nu-metal
http://www.fasterlouder.com.au/features/35134/Guns-N-Roses-Dizzy-Reed-Im-very-proud-of-Chinese-Democracy I call the big one bitey 22:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Is this "genre warring"?
Is this really "genre warring"? Here's a test: "Chinese Deomocracy is a <———> album." Can we say: "Chinese Deomocracy is a nu metal album."? Can we say: "Chinese Deomocracy is a hard rock, electronic rock, industrial rock, nu metal album."? How does that compare to "Chinese Deomocracy is a hard rock album."? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

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Too many reviews in the review box
I believe the limit is 10; I count 11. One should be chosen to be removed and just mentioned in prose instead.  danny music editor  oops 03:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Fixed it. RF23 (talk) 10:39, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Removed images
I've removed the following images from the article; they are oversized and don't illustrate anything about the album or it's making and thus don't help the reader's understanding of the article.

The second set contains images that might be useful as singles or in a gallery; I probably should re-read WP:MOSIMAGES as it's been a while, but I'm sure that mentions image sizes.  Baffle gab1978  02:26, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Cheers,  Baffle gab1978  02:14, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Some suggestions
As you might have noticed, I've been doing some copyediting on this article. I'm not a GnR fan and knew nothing of the history of the album, and it's been interesting learning about it. Two main thoughts:


 * It strikes me that there seems to be a lot of information out there on the actual recording history (of which this album has more than most) that isn't in the article yet. For example, I just added some information I found about the drum recording. This kind of thing is really interesting and should be included where we can find it.


 * I don't think the current structure of having Recording and Delays as separate sections works. It means you have to explain certain things twice (like Roy Thomas Baker being hired) and tell the story from beginning to end twice in different ways. Instead I think we should have a single Recording section, incorporating delays, which can be divided into subsections where appropriate.

I may make these changes myself if I continue to read about the history of the album, but there's no guarantee of that happening... Popcornduff (talk) 10:02, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree about the recording. I just added a bit about Frank Ferrer's recording. There's some information from Background section that can be incorporated. I'm gonna try and scour from interviews from other members, because like half the article is Tommy Stinson interviews.RF23 (talk) 19:45, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
 * this podcast/audio interview probably has some info from Fortus. RF23 (talk) 11:55, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * interview with producer Sean Beaven also has a lot of info.RF23 (talk) 12:09, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Here's another one; an interview with Josh Freese. I don't have the time at the moment to transcribe or listen to any of these audio interviews so I'm listing them here, they probably have good details in them.RF23 (talk) 16:42, 19 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for these links. I think the article has the potential to be great, but right now it's really hard to follow the chronology... I really think we need to straighten out the whole story from beginning to end. Popcornduff (talk) 14:59, 20 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I wonder if the recording and delays section can be all combined and subsections can be for era's like a band article would be (like Early recordings (97-00) Delays and Member changes (00-06), final recordings and release (06-08) ). It might be untraditional but I think it'd benefit the complicated timeline. RF23 (talk) 02:11, 23 June 2018 (UTC)


 * That's exactly what I'm proposing. I think it'd be a huge improvement. I don't think it'd "untraditional" either - is there a tradition of separating Delays into a different section for music articles? Don't think so... Popcornduff (talk) 07:50, 23 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The sections where previously split a while back (by me, I think, it's been a while) because of how large the sections are. Most articles don't have sections on Delays, but then again most albums don't have the kind of history Chinese has. Only other album I can think of off the top of my head is Smile and it has an entire page about the dissolution of the album. If you have any ideas for how to re-combine them, let me know because I messed around with it last night in draft mode and couldn't figure out a good way, the section ended up too choppy and back and forth since the sections have two separate themes (recording and delays). RF23 (talk) 20:39, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I'll see if I can have a go at it.
 * One of the reasons it's difficult to merge the sections currently is the same reason why the page is currently difficult to read. It's really difficult to get a sense of the timeline. Examples:
 * The "Delays" section begins: "Producer Youth stated that in 1997 Rose was not ready to record the album" - OK, in 1997 what stage was the album at? Had they begun recording yet? You have to cross-reference another section to find out.
 * The "Recording" section begins: "Longtime Guns N' Roses producer Mike Clink was reported to have worked on Chinese Democracy during its conception". When was "its conception"? Is that before or after 1997, when Youth said Rose was not ready? It's really difficult to get a clear sense of time in the current state.
 * "Guitarist Richard Fortus said all but his contribution, the chorus to "Better", had been written by the time he joined". When did he join? This information is in a different section...
 * Do you see what I mean? Popcornduff (talk) 12:12, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

OK, I've restructured it. I think it's an improvement, more or less, but still needs lots of work to make it cohesive and flow well, and there are still lots of tags where things need citations or clarification. Still lots more work to do. Popcornduff (talk) 13:25, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Additionally, in the "Style and composition" section, there are quite a few quotes where third parties describe the album as it sounded while it was in development. These should be moved to the recording section. The "Style and composition" section should only describe the final album.

I also notice the article mentions a few leaks, but doesn't go into detail. More detail is needed about these. Popcornduff (talk) 13:30, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Another thought: we should really have a paragraph, no more than two or three sentences, establishing the background leading up to the album - explaining that they were a hugely successful band with the previous lineup. This sets the stage for the next stuff. See Songs from the Black Hole for an example. Popcornduff (talk) 18:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
 * An issue I'm having right now is finding info that's tagged for clarification on the Final Recording section. I can't find when Costanzo joined the album or when the harpist and conductor worked on it. I would assume mid-00's, but can't find the info.RF23 (talk) 22:05, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks a bunch for taking the time to look. Let's leave it for now; the information may turn up eventually, and there's still work to do elsewhere. In the end, there may be a way to incorporate the information naturally without the dates.Popcornduff (talk) 22:19, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Chinese Democracy Promo Box2.jpg

Removal of Unsubstantiated and Derogatory Comments About Buckethead
Subject: The Guns N' Roses album, Chinese Democracy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Democracy

Today I deleted the following sentences from the end of the second paragraph of the "Tom Zutaut joins" section. "However, the coop caused friction when Buckethead began using it to watch hardcore pornography, disturbing Rose. After one of Rose's dogs defecated in the coop, Buckethead insisted it not be cleaned up as he liked the smell. After three days, the smell had become overwhelming and the studio staff removed it, upsetting Buckethead.[31]"

Bryan "Brain" Mantia was the drummer for Guns N' Roses on the Chinese Democracy tour and is known as Buckethead's best friend and frequent collaborator. Please watch and listen to the first two minutes of this video. "Are THOSE Buckethead GNR Stories True? Brain sets the record straight!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtcljfmQGEw YouTube channel NatterNet is interviewing Brain, who disputes the derogatory statements from reference [31] about Buckethead which have been in this Wikipedia article for years. The statements in question are disturbing and paint an inaccurate picture of Buckethead.

Another reference in support of removing these exact quotes is given in the following video, also by YouTube channel NatterNet. "Is THAT Buckethead Story Just GNR Lies?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1HszllMqNI Please watch and listen to this video from about 2:28 through about 5:50.

--Green Wiki Thing (talk) 23:46, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Green Wiki Thing


 * YouTube isn't a great source, per WP:YOUTUBE. We don't really want to get into the weeds with the he-said-she-said stuff. I have restored the contentious information, which is well sourced, and added some in-text attribution ("According to Zutaut...") so we're not just stating it in Wikipedia's voice. Popcornfud (talk) 10:59, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Let's please reconsider leaving in Zutaut's disputed accusations against Buckethead. If we choose to leave them in, then the refutation could also be added for balance. In particular, Zutaut's claim that Buckethead used his "coop" area of the recording studio to watch hardcore pornography is passionately denied by Brain (that is, Bryan Kei "Brain" Mantia). Brain's interview is well sourced because it is available as an audio track and has also been transcribed here:. The most pertinent excerpt from that interview would be these two lines:
 * Interviewer: "Tom Zutaut said about this porn story, that Buckethead was in the studio watching hardcore pornography to get inspired and Buckethead fans were like 'that's bullshit'."
 * Brain: "That's bullshit!!! That's bullshit!!! That's just mean and rude."

The introduction to the interview is also useful here:
 * Title: Is THAT Buckethead GNR Story True? - Bryan Brain Mantia sets the record straight!
 * Introduction: Since the mid-2000's former Guns N Roses A&R representative Tom Zutaut has said a number of derogatory things about guitarist Buckethead. Calling him “emotionless”, blaming him for tour cancellations and the delay of the Chinese Democracy album. No other member of Guns N' Roses has spoken of Tom Zutauts claims until now. Today, Bryan 'Brain' Mantia, who was the drummer for Guns N Roses at the time, sets the record straight.

--Green Wiki Thing (talk) 17:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem is, while I'm sure that's a real interview, it's not a good source by Wikipedia standards. For now I've added this text: Brain denied that Buckethead had acted disruptively.[better source needed] Another editor might still remove it. If you can find a better source from a more reputable website (like Rolling Stone or something) then that would be great., who has done lots of work on this article, might have an opinion. Popcornfud (talk) 17:53, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This was a minor issue that came up during the GA Process (or sometime in the past, it's been a while); because a lot of the info from people like Beaven or Brain (which is a large chunk of information not covered by other sources) came from direct interviews they did recently, mostly with obscure fansites or youtube channels. While I agree with the general consensus that youtube is not a great source; it's a direct interview with the one of the people that made the album. I do think it should stay as it is now, with the claim's and Brain's dismissals of them.RF23 (talk) 11:53, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Popcornfud and Ringerfan23 for your efforts to finally bring out the opposing side of Zutaut's accusations that, for years, have troubled those concerned about Buckethead. I understand that a major publication would make a superior reference, but such information is extremely rare, especially because Buckethead is not one to publicly defend himself. There exists a population that follows Buckethead and his collaborators such as Brain, but they are neither mainstream nor powerful. Thank you again. --Green Wiki Thing (talk) 18:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Lead is too long
The lead of this article has really ballooned since I last looked at it. We don't need this extensive list of all the people who joined and left the band in the lead — it should be trimmed back to the more concise version. See MOS:LEADLENGTH for guidance on this. Popcornfud (talk) 12:57, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I've trimmed it down to three paragraphs. I think everyone from GNR who was on the album should be mentioned in the lead [sorry Sebastian Bach you get left out of this one], and as it is now I think it does a good job summarizing the article without leaving out any of the important facts. I'm open to suggestions for further trimming if you have any. RF23 (talk) 13:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks — it's much more readable now. Popcornfud (talk) 03:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Release History table
This article needs one. I'm really bad with tables on wiki [for real is there like a tutorial somewhere because I always mess them up], could someone help add one? RF23 (talk) 06:56, 3 June 2024 (UTC)