Talk:Chinese astrology/Archive 1



an interesting question
I was born in January 1980. It's said that 1980 was the Year of the Monkey, but the Chinese New Year didn't start until mid-February, so would that technically mean I'm actually a Goat? Both descriptions fit me really well personally, but if I was truly to be one, which would that be? I hope I don't start anything, but I've been wondering about this for some time. My email is kjclass98@ yahoo.com if you wish to answer there. Thanks. ChrisRJ 14/3/07 2:15am PST

Countries
Somebody please explain how the list of countries was determined. It seems awfully wrong for just about every sign!

I repeat in the same manner the same question. For example, on which basis it has been assumed, that Italy is a Horse country? That country has been ever assumed either as a Dog or a Dragon! Klava76

Chinese Hours
Oh, I guess the shichen is not called like 'Rat', 'Ox' etc, but rather 'zi', 'chou', 'yan', 'mao' etc...Am I right? -- yacht (Talk) 05:05, Dec 19, 2003 (UTC)


 * Yeah, not sure where that correspondence is from. That guy also put it in Earthly Branches. --Menchi (Talk)ü| â 06:03, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * The common names of the twelve shichen are "子, 丑, 寅, 卯, 辰, 巳, 午, 未, 申, 酉, 戌, 亥"; 子時 begins at 11:00pm in the modern clock. Each shichen can also correspond with a sign in the Chinese zodiac, although as far as I know this is not done very often.


 * References:
 * Y28 Predictions
 * Chinese Culture reference
 * Chinese hours and zodiac chart
 * --Glenn W 01:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

You're famous!
See also: Wikipedia_as_a_press_source

"Happy Chinese New Year" (Coeur d'Alene Press, United States, January 22) Sholeh Patrick recommends wikipedia's Chinese zodiac if you want to know more about years of Monkeys and Rats, and so on.

Incomplete Table
In my opinion, the table is of little use if it does not include recent years.--Feitclub 02:50, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * The table has two sets of "begin & end" columns, and includes years from 1900 to 2020. (It could certainly stand to be reformatted to make that clearer.) DenisMoskowitz 16:37, 2005 Feb 28 (UTC)

This article should be merged with Sexagenary cycle. - ChongDae

Table of the lunar calendar and zodiac? I could be confused but this table looks like 2006 is the year of the Rooster, every one else thinks it is the year of the Dog.
 * The year of the Rooster was from Feb. 9, 2005 to January 28, 2006, so only the first four weeks of 2006 are part of the year of the Rooster. The year of the Dog is January 28, 2006 - Feb. 17, 2007.  Chinese New Year is not the same day as Western New Year, and the change is by the Chinese New Year Nik42 04:05, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

discrepancy
I might have found an error. On the Chinese constellation page, it say the constellation (斗 pinyin:dǒu), literal translation "dipper," is actually nearest to Sagittarius in the western sky. Sagittarius is Ra 19h, dec -25°. On this page, it says, "For example, the big dipper (Ursa Major) is known as &#26007; d&#466;u." However, Ursa Major is Ra 10.67h, dec 55.38°. The Chinese constellation dǒu can't be both Sagittarius and Ursa Major, right? Whoever knows what they're doing and can verify one or the other can fix it, because I'm not sure.

(previous was from User:Dauvm and unsigned)


 * I think there are actually two dippers in the Chinese sky - I've got some documentation on this at home. I'll try to check it out tonight.DenisMoskowitz 14:34, 2005 May 9 (UTC)

Two dippers in the east asian astrology are: "&#21271;&#26007;&#19971;&#26143;"(north-dipper-seven-star), the big dipper in Ursa Major, and "&#21335;&#26007;&#63953;&#26143;"(south-dipper-six-star) in Sagittarius (ζ, τ, σ, ψ, λ, μ). There are two more. east-five and west-four. But the last two are seldomly used. -- ChongDae 10:01, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this should include the story of the 12 animals and how they raced towards.... something.. to attain their status as the 12 animals... and also their order.
 * Those are both already included at the top of the Chinese zodiac section. --DenisMoskowitz 12:12, 2005 July 24 (UTC)

About the element of one year
The Element column of Table of the Lunar Calendar and Zodiac are somewhat misleading. Element list there are of the Heavenly Stems of the year. One year indeed is associated with three elements, one is of its Heavenly Stems, one is of its Earthly Branches and the last one is called 纳音 na yin. The last system is invented later and is not recognized by some astrologers. But the other two systems are equally important. --Purpureleaf 04:39, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

No reference to neither inner or secret animals
This article is very incomplete and lacking without the understanding of the combinations of profiles.

5 elements - 12 animals - 12 months - 12 times a day (equals 8640 combinations)


 * I removed all the links as well as they were all stupid westernized crap, most of them used the wrong calender for allah's sakes and didn't even mention the elements, inner or secret animals. This page needs to conform to a higher standard instead of the crap westernized astrology which is mostly hocus pocus.


 * so much mess, I think I've done enough for one day. The info on the animals themselves is a mission on itself

Much better now - Now the animals
Now we should move on to standardizing all the animals and elements to not suck like this article did with crappy western influence

Thanks for doing all this! With so much to take into consideration when, could you provide some non-Westernized sources?

The Months
The relation of animals to months has been edited and changed back all too many times in this article. The single external source claims that January is the month of Ox. However some editors seem to believe that January is actually the month of Rat and so they constantly shift the entire calendar by one sign. This starts to look like an edit war. If anyone knows of other (perhaps more reliable) sources that would say someting about this "inner animal" stuff, please drop in some references here so we could check them and finally reach an agreement on the subject. Prickus 13:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Edit wars to whichever version were both incorrect! Lunar months don't correspond to the Julian/Gregorian solar months for starters, and the first lunar month is actually the Tiger (cited link at bottom, plus cross referenced with a rather old Chinese astrology to check validity). Have made a nice table to reflect this. Jonathan Stanley 20:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Blah! Both those edits happened whilst I wasn't logged in... Jonathan Stanley 20:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Glad to see this one finally corrected! Now, taking into account that these are actually lunar months, a practical question arises: how can one calculate what is the lunar month of his/her birthday in order to figure out one's inner animal? Prickus 16:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I have seen online tables that relate the solar terms (yushui, etc.) to dates. Maybe it would be a good idea to put those into the table, but I have no understanding whatsoever of html (or any markup, for that matter) tables. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Orngjce223 (talk • contribs) 21:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC). Oh, oops. ~user:orngjce223how am I typing? 21:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I updated the table in 'The Months' to link each 'segment' to its corresponding Wiki article, each of which contains the approximate date conversion for the segment. mpbx 09:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Dodecimal Zodiac in the calendar of Turkic peoples like the Uyghurs
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/1238.html (previous posted by User:Bestlyriccollection) (large Chinese article removed)
 * Bestlyriccollection, it's not useful to dump a very large non-English article into English talk pages. Most editors here can't read it, and as far as I can tell it's just the same content as the web page you've linked above.  If there's something specific you'd like us to get out of it, please translate. DenisMoskowitz 19:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Typos
I suppressed a repetition of the verb "to be" in "The Twelve Animals". It originally read "each individual personality is is associated". And I also corrected a typo in "distinctively" at the end of the paragraph.

Askorahn 16:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

18th and 19th century calender
I would like to add columns for the 18th and 19th century - to find the signs of not only living people, but historical figures as well. Does anyone know where to find a source for the 18th and 19th century? --Stbalbach 23:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If you find them, I'd suggest you link to them rather than making the already large table even larger. DenisMoskowitz 18:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Animal's Race Copyrighted?
I'm a newcomer here, but I think that you put a literal and extensive transcription of the content of the link Legend of the Chinese zodiac by Audrey Lim, cited in your article, without quotes or something like. This don't means a copyright violation?

Celebrity lists
I removed the list of celebrities from Rat (see the talk page), and I think the lists should be removed from the other animal articles too. Presumably every celebrity or notable person who ever existed falls under one of the twelve categories, so I think decisions about who gets included are inherently arbitrary and poorly defined. And I don't see what value such lists add to an encyclopedia. Wmahan. 04:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well said. DenisMoskowitz 20:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I haven't followed through with the change because someone objected at Talk:Rat (zodiac) and I don't want to remove the lists unless there is a consensus. Wmahan. 02:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The lists are useful inasmuch as they provide some data for falsification. Say, you were born in the year of the Rat. You can check for other people born in the year of the Rat. If you find you have something in common with them, you can decide Chinese astrology is for you; in case you don't, you can spend your time otherwise.

There's nothing unfactual about these lists. If you simply don't like categorizing people, I suggest you make a case for removing every single "List of famous/well-known ..." article on the Wikipedia. The fact that every single celebrity was born in a 12-year cycle does not undermine its credibility. While we're on the issue of astrology, every single person was born in one of 12 months (according to most calendars) as well. More generally speaking, so few things really distinguish us Earth-born homo sapien sapiens that something like Chinese years don't hurt anyone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.60.39 (talk • contribs) 2006-06-24 08:53:50 (UTC)
 * There aren't any lists of celebrities at the western astrological sign articles: see Sagittarius (astrology) for instance. DenisMoskowitz 22:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought it was clear that I wanted to remove the lists because they don't add any value to an encyclopedia article, not because I "simply don't like categorizing people". No, the lists don't hurt anyone, but I think they detract from the articles' quality for the reasons I gave. Mere factuality is not a sufficient reason to include the lists. And there are many different ways to categorize people: by name, year of birth, year of death, ethnic or national origin, occupation, religion, sex, location, and on and on. Wmahan. 05:24, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

it seemed strange-
<!- -doesn't the earth govern 3 animals like the others?- -> k zz* 19:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to add that the vietnamese zodiac 12 animals are simular to the Chinese zodiac animals. However, instead of the Rabbit it is replaced by the cat.

The story goes that the cat and the Rat rode on top of the Ox during the race,(cause they couldn't swim) and the Rat pushed the cat into the water later, letting the Rat take first place, Ox second, Tiger third and cat fourth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.108.13.212 (talk • contribs).

Concerning the question: I would like to say the following

1. Earth "governs" Ox, Dragon, Goat and Dog. 2. But Ox is part of the Chinese winter, when Water is strong; Dragon is part of the Chinese Spring, when Wood is strong; Goat is part of the Chinese Summer, when Fire is strong; and Dog is part of Chinese Autumn, when Metal is strong.

Chinese Gender Calendar
Is this really Chinese? Chinese Gender Calendar. Does anyone in China actually use it? Where did it come from? All I can find are site like babynames.com. If someone who speaks Chinese could search Chinese websites it might be a help. -Ravedave 01:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Expanding External Link
how about adding a link in the external link section that gives information from the origin of Chinese astrology to individual animals Characters & more. the link is http://www.astrouniverse.com/ChineseAstro.php Avenash


 * It's fine if any established, neutral editor wants add the link. But since you have a direct interest in the site, and you have been adding it to many articles in an apparent attempt to promote it, I have removed it. Promotion of your own website is not allowed; please see External links. Wmahan. 17:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

What is this?
http://www.kunstkammer.dk/OstindiskeGB/genstande_ostindiskeGB.asp?ID=201

I presume it is somehow related to Chinese astrology, and, since it is the Kunstkammer (collection of wonders) of the Danish kings I thought you might want to use it as an external link, presuming it is relevant.

I note too that the original text which accompanied this articles was: "Chinese boxes for soothsaying" (2 Chineische pyxides til Sortilegia) Considering what most people consider to be "Chinese boxes" I thought that was rather interesting.
 * It's almost certainly a Lo P'an, a geomantic compass used in Feng Shui. DenisMoskowitz 20:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

What is the 13th (leap) month called?
The month table lists the first 12 months, but not the leap month. What is it, and its segments called? Also, which sign is this month assigned to?


 * I want to know that, too! I can't believe nobody here knows the answer. :-( —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.187.118.199 (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC).


 * I think that the leap month has no segments and is assigned the sign of the month before.~user:orngjce223how am I typing? 22:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Took out inflammatory irrelevancy
One of the sign descriptions included something about how Japan and Germany, ruled (apparently) by the Dragon and the Rat, respectively, were responsible for great atrocities including the holocaust. I removed it as inflammatory and irrelevant to the topic. Nagakura shin8 15:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the original author was trying to explain the part about how the First Trine is capable of great good and great evil and so pointed out that Japan and Germany, nations governed by the Dragon and Rat, respectively, were causes of world war 2. I think he/she was trying to show the rough characteristics of the signs, the Rats exclusive, rigid, and brutal side and the Dragons imperious and arrogant side. When I first saw it, I just thought it was irrelevent and quite sensitive. It's nothing that Rat persons or Dragon persons can be particularily proud of and it was just not relevent. Glad you took it off. VeronicaPR 06:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think the Chinese zodiac started out rating countries by their "signs". For one thing, how does one determine Germany to have a "Rat" sign?  The date of the country's "birth"?  That is subject to historical interpretation.  Does anyone have a credible source for designating Chinese zodiac signs to countries?  tess 20:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

some cleanup suggested?
This article has very awkward wording at times and is generally difficult to follow. This includes grammar and presentation of ideas.

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:18, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

All the characters are incorrect.
I have checked a few of the subheadings (year of the Dragon, Rat, Goat, etc.) and *all* of the chinese characters shown are incorrect. I have tried to provide links to a few wiktionary entries of the correct characters, but I can't figure out how to do it and I don't have the time.

Can someone please fix this error or help me? It's embarrassing for wikipedia to be so wrong for so long. These character changes were made (in some cases) over a year ago.Lesotho 03:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Please. Again. All of the non-elemental characters in this article as well are wrong (Ox, Goat, Rat, etc.). Please change them. I will help, if need be. Lesotho 11:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Why don't you just change them yourself? &mdash; Sam 00:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Sam, that's a "helpful" resolution. Clearly, it's because I cannot. I can find the appropriate characters in wiktionary, but I can't figure out how to input characters directly. Again, any help is appreciated.Lesotho 01:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to be condescending; I apologize. I just assumed if you had the knowledge of the characters to know they were incorrect then you knew enough to fix them. How about we move them here until someone is able to make the corrections? &mdash; Sam 01:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Mutual online misunderstanding...now there's a first :P

Again, these changes need to be propagated through all the individual pages as well, not just on this main page. These wiktionary entries are correct and provide the Kangxi radical numbers...I just don't know how to input that. Anyone please help!

Here goes:

Rat should be shu3: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%BC%A0

Ox should be niu2: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%89%9B

Tiger should be hu3: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%99%8E

Rabbit should be tu4: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%85%94

Dragon should be long2: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%BE%8D

Snake should be she2: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%9B%87

Horse should be ma3: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%A9%AC

Goat should be yang2: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%BE%8A

Monkey should be hou2: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%8C%B4

Rooster should be ji1: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%B8%A1

Dog should be gou3: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%8B%97

Pig should be zhu1: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%8C%AA

Actually, I noticed that the elements in the table are wrong too, but (miraculously?) they are actually correct on the individual pages. I will go after that later.

Lesotho 02:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you not just copy and paste? On my system it copies and pastes the characters into the article with no issue. &mdash; Sam 02:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe check this link for more info: http://www.thailex.info/THAILEX/THAILEXENG/LEXICON/Chinese%20zodiac%20chronology%20table.htm

If want can add as external, link up-to-you.

&mdash; Sam 03:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The characters are the correct calendar symbols. See note at the beginning of the section. I am restoring the characters to the table. 63.193.118.25 11:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand your rationale, but I believe it is misleading. When you look at several other wikipedia pages relating to this topic, they use this as a source material and don't read past the first section (evidently). As such, they use the *astrological* denotations in lieu of the *character* designations for Dog, Rat, Goat, etc. and claim "it is internally consistent within Wikipedia". Would it be acceptable to put the standard mandarin character table first followed by the astrological table?Lesotho 19:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

'''Doesn't anyone understand? Those Chinese Characters aren't incorrect! They're only used for astrology; not for normal writing!'''

The months - the inner animals
The article states: "The 12 animals also apply to the lunar months. The month born affects a person's inner animal, as stated above. Remember, the Chinese calendar is offset to start in the traditional February, or even in early March." But in the table that follows, it seems to be matching the animals up with solar months, and not lunar ones - after all, if they were lunar months, the dates should vary each year - in the table, the dates don't vary. Can someone clarify or fix this? Jimhoward72 19:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, the article is not clear in explaining why the Rat - the first animal, is assigned to the 11th lunar month - which is around December. Why is the Rat not assigned to the 1st lunar month - which is around February? A person reading this article for information, has difficulty figuring this out from the current article.Jimhoward72 19:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the current article is quite confusing. My daughter asked about this and when I looked it up, the chart seems to have overlapping dates? It makes no sense to me.--Jimbo Wales 02:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I agree the dates overlap... somebody is stupid!

Tore Calendar
3. Kuman (Imén)

This appears between the Ox and Tiger on the Tore calendar. What is this? It took me forever to find that the first, Saravana, is the Rat, and the rest are all in order. How come nothing else ever mentions something between the Ox and Tiger? And what's the source on this thing anyway? I can't find a single website with this that didn't copy it from Wikipedia! 69.220.2.188 03:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

4. It's the cat or the cat's placement if it had been allowed into the calender. I don't know why it is like that here. It is a very weird way of putting it on the calender. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.86.133 (talk) 21:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Characters are correct
Each year, the animal is called something else. So Rabbit might not be 兔子，or 甲子 next year, but it might be something else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fushy (talk • contribs) 23:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Comets
It mentioned in the leading paragraph that comets are used in calculating chinese horoscopes, but they aren't mentioned again in the article. Could someone explain, even as a one line answer, what the role of comets are? 137.111.219.14 23:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Date
I thought 2008 is the Year of the Rat? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neobattle2 (talk • contribs) 01:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It is the year of the Rat beginning on February the 7th 2008.

Conception chart
There's an orphaned stub about a 13th century Chinese conception chart that I think relates to this topic, but I don't know how to integrate it into this article. If you think it's appropriate to include a link to this article, then please add it (and please then delete the orphan tag from the article). Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Chinese agricultural calendar
What happens between jan 04 and feb 03. I noticed that in column "begin" its feb 04, and in column "end" its jan 03. So whats with people born between jan 04 and feb 03. Or they don't have a sign by Chinese agricultural calendar Requiem mn (talk) 14:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * May be its a mistake in this table. But I don't think this "agriculrual calendar" is used for determining the sign.  People born before the Chinese New Year, but after the gregorian new year are still considered to be born with the sign of the Chinese year that hasn't ended yet.  tess (talk) 18:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there an authoritative source for this calendar? Is it a 30 year cycle (as it appears in the table)? What purpose does it serve in terms of astrology? -- Robocoder ( t|c ) 00:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleted External Link
I've deleted the link to a site called Chinese zodiac Horoscope. The justification for its inclusion from the previous user was because the site included a 'calculator' that helped a user ascertain one's zodiac sign. Call me crazy, but external links should be included as to 'add' value to a page, not be redundant. If anyone wanted to find their sign, just use CTRL+F and search with one's birth year. An external link like CZH draws this article closer to its previous versions where the External Links section became way too long because every link became useful because of some tiny interesting but useless aspect. Ultatri (talk) 02:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Cat years
According to the legend, the cat was not included in the zodiac, but due to its naturally tricky nature, it "sneaks" into the zodiac anyway; for instance, the year 1989 and 2002 (this is under the Gregorian calendar, rather than the Chinese calendar, so it is merely an example) are cat years because their number is divisible by 13. These years are also Snake and Horse years, respectively, so the person under this zodiac would have traits associated with both the cat and the animal they are born under. Because this is a thirteen year cycle, rather than a 12 year one, each time the cat advances by one place, going until it gets to the end of the cycle.

The following years are divisible by 13 (using the Chinese calendar, ending with the divisible year at Chinese New Year): (1903-1904) - Dragon, (1916-1917) - Snake, (1929-1930) - Horse, (1942-1943) - Goat, (1955-1956) - Monkey, (1968-1969) - Rooster, (1982-1983) - Dog, (1994-1995) - Pig, (2007-2008) - Rat, (2020-2021) - Ox, (2033-2034) - Tiger, (2046-2047) - Rabbit I was wondering where this came from. I can't find any sources on the internet, except Wikipedia. If I'm not mistaken, it's not even on the Chinese or Japanese pages. JadziaLover 01:26, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't know. I've never heard of it. (I grew up in Hong Kong.) And I just removed the following ref info:

"This is not part of horoscope mythology, but rather something that happens mathematically. Every 13 years, the zodiac cycle advances by one (Rat to Ox for instance), and the year that this includes is divisible by such under the Chinese calendar. Since, cats are widely considered unlucky creatures, and 13 is an unlucky number, this phenomenon of divisibility by 13 is referred to as a 'cat year.'"
 * 13 is not considered unlucky in Chinese tradition tess (talk) 18:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Isn't that equivelent to the Western Zodiac's "Serpentarius"? Which falls between Scorpio and Sagittarius? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.149.132 (talk) 07:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

WHAT ARE COMBINATION ELEMENTS?
Question moved from article body in HTML comment - no one will see it there Astronaut (talk) 20:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

88.105.69.205 21:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yin Yang Element

 * If the year ends in 0 it is Yang Metal.
 * If the year ends in 1 it is Yin Metal.
 * If the year ends in 2 it is Yang Water.
 * If the year ends in 3 it is Yin Water.
 * If the year ends in 4 it is Yang Wood.
 * If the year ends in 5 it is Yin Wood.
 * If the year ends in 6 it is Yang Fire.
 * If the year ends in 7 it is Yin Fire.
 * If the year ends in 8 it is Yang Earth.
 * If the year ends in 9 it is Yin Earth.

I never heard of this as a Chinese. I was born in 1984 and I know that year (甲子) is labeled as 'Metal in the Sea' (海中金). But according to Wiki, that year is Yang Wood. Is this table really of Chinese origin. Also, I can't find it in Chinese Wikipedia.--Haofangjia (talk) 01:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

And will someone PLEASE post the characteristics for wood? I never got why they have a wood as a seperate element. As far as I know, wood IS part of the earth. Trees are earth. wood comes from trees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nm1119 (talk • contribs) 04:28, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

East-West Profile
There is a website that has the Chinese astrology combined with the original astrology, called the East-West Profile. Here's the website.--Angeldeb82 (talk) 02:53, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Should the title of this article have been changed?
I'm new to editing Wikipedia, so I don't want to undo large edits if I'm inexperienced. However, a number of reasons leave me uneasy about the change in the title's article. The main one is that the article is about Chinese astrology, not necessarily the twelve zodiac animals. The second is conformity--all the rest of the astrology articles are named accordingly.

Comments?

-Pseudonym 101 (talk) 04:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Why is this article title called "Birthpet"?! It should have been "Chinese astrology"! --Angeldeb82 (talk) 04:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I agree that the move should not have happened. The mover's rationale was "Keep the languages the same", presumably referring to parity with the Chinese version of this page.  But I think consistency with all the other astrology pages in the English Wikipedia takes precedence.  Unfortunately, we can't easily move this back to Chinese astrology because there's a redirect page there now.  That redirect page has been marked for speedy delete, so we can move this back. --ToastyKen (talk) 06:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Categorizations of the twelve signs
Can we have an explanation above the section Categorizations of the twelve signs? I don't understand it at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BaboonOfTheYard (talk • contribs) 21:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

---

The 5-element(五行) in the "Table of the sixty year calendar" appears to be ALL WRONG? I also noted that some books written by certain "feng-shui master" also had those problems. The first in the 60-year cycle starts from "甲子" which is a Metal Rat (not Wooden Rat as shown), in which case the Heavenly stem (天干) is 甲, the Earthly Branch (地支) is 子; the combined notation (天干地支) is 甲子; the 5-element (五行) is Metal (金); and the associated animal (属相) is  Rat. It is also the first of the pair and it is correctly stated as Yang. Please refer http://www.nongli.com/Doc/0409/19163721.htm for more details. Can someone confirm this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piranha-8 (talk • contribs) 04:04, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

My apology, after some readings, the 5-elements stated in the table is not wrong! but they are the 5-elements for the Animals only (十二生肖属相); There are separate element properties for Heavenly stems (天干), and separate element properties for Earthly Branches (地支) and also different element properties for the 60 items produced from the combination of heavenly stem and earthly branch (按干支结合生出的五行为纳音五行)! Those element properties for the Animals (鼠属水，牛属土，虎属木，兔属木，龙属土，蛇属火，马属火，羊属土，猴属金，鸡属金，狗属土，猪属水) have their own assigned meanings and have nothing to do with the yearly-cycle; So in my opinion the Table may need to be expanded a little! Source : http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4e06729d01000awi.html http://sports.sohu.com/20080326/n255917712.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piranha-8 (talk • contribs) 08:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Chinese-Western Sign associations wrong
I'm not sure who came up with the idea that the Snake is associated with Taurus, but their wrong. Yes the Snake is often associated with materialism, you know wanting a life of luxury, and being stubborn. But Snakes are charmers, they are often skilled in the arts of seduction and interested in the unknown, mysticism, the occult etc. Scorpio is bout the same way and is also a fixed sign which means it is also stubborn. Scorpios don't let anyone get in the way of what they believe in, like the Snake. Taurus is represented by a bull so Ox is 100% the real Taurus counterpart. Both Pisces and Goats are weak-willed.

I could explain the others, but how it really should be is below. I often try to figure out associations of signs with different things. Including gaming. Like what signs are associated with what class or race of say world of warcraft. I have put an asterick by the signs I'm still unsure on.

Aries/Rooster*

Taurus/Ox

Gemini/Monkey

Cancer/Rabbit

Leo/Rat

Virgo/Dog

Libra/Tiger*

Scorpio/Snake

Sagittarius/Pig*

Capricorn/Horse

Aquarius/Dragon

Pisces/Goat


 * Okay, don't force your opinion and original research down on us. The equivalents we have right now are FINE.

Type "western astrology and chinese astrology equivalent" in Google and here you will find:  Read this one:  Need I list more? Someone963852 (talk) 21:19, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Conflicting Statements?
In the introduction, I read, “Chinese astrology does not calculate the positions of the sun, moon and planets at the time of birth”. Yet, in the background section, I'm reading “According to Chinese astrology, a person's destiny can be determined by the position of the major planets at the person's birth along with the positions of the Sun, Moon and comets and the person's time of birth and Zodiac Sign” These two statements seem to be a direct contradiction to each other.


 * I don't know when you made that statement because you forgot signing with four tildes ~ . The error is still there. Actually, I think the initial claim is a little off-topical, the birth date and planetary positions then determine the horo(r)scope, whether they're calculated or looked-up in a table is irrelevant. I'll trash it. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 15:46, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * ✅. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 15:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

"snail" in Kazakhstan
This note is incorrect and should be deleted. The Kazakh word ұлу in the Zodiac calendar derives from a loan word from Chinese meaning "Dragon" (lun).

65.210.81.130 (talk) 16:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC) Will


 * That may be so, but the current meaning is definitely "snail", and it is so translated and depicted. -- Vmenkov (talk) 17:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

this thing is amazing i have seen this it is realy cool — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.107.131.223 (talk) 02:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

REMOVE LINK
The link to chineseastrology.org comes up with a ROOTKIT INFECTION MESSAGE. Get rid of this link. 108.18.136.147 (talk) 20:42, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Unreadable English
Could someone who is familiar with the subject matter please edit the currently incomprehensible contributions by, primarily sections Zang Fu ~ Zodiac ~ Month and Arctic ~ Antarctic, but also the paragraph on Arctic/Antarctic water in the end of the Wu Xing section? (Even the use of the tilde character in the headlines is not something you normally see in English.) ehn (talk) 07:17, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Proposed changes to table
I reverted 3 good faith edits from 16:24-26, 4 January 2011 by LC.Lau. My primary was that all the dates were changed to Feb 3rd or 4th, citing a blog at fengshui1988.com which seemed to say the zodiac should begin on the spring equinox (it gave the date Feb 4th or 5th for that). I assumed that it meant Spring Festival/New Year (2nd new moon after winter solstice) since the equinox is approximately March 20/21. The editor offered some clarification on my talk page, but it's such a major change, and a lot of sources seem to agree on the other way... so, I suggested it would be best to discuss it here.

Here's what LC.Lau explained:
 * Please note that years in the Sexagenary cycle are different from years in the traditional Chinese calendar. The ancient Chinese Astrologist usually takes the start of a year from Li Chun (Feb 4 every year), the system, it's also called "Shichen Bazi" (時辰八字), which has absolute no relationship with the Chinese calendar. In the Chinese calendar, a standard year only contains 354 days, which makes it inappropriate for astrology observation.

—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 07:47, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The table below does NOT reflect the data in the source you cited. That source, which I have no reason to doubt, does in fact put the date of the new year as either the 4th or 5th of February. It also provides tables of its own showing, for each year, exactly which of those days, and even at what time of day, the new year commences. The current table is NOT is agreement with the source. The same incorrect table, even citing the same source, is present on Chinese zodiac and Sexagenary cycle, whereas this Chinese astrology page and the Chinese New Year page current have a much different table where the date of the new year varies by many days or weeks each year.Qaanol (talk) 00:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Qaanol, please direct your response to the discussion with LC.Lau below. Thanks.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 02:25, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 07:47, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * [天干与地支, A webpage provided by Huazhong Agricultural University (华中农业大学气象教研室)], mentioned: 我国古代用这六十对干支来表示年、月、日、时的序号，周而复始，不断循环，这就是干支纪法. 在任一时刻，年、月、日、时的干支合起来有八个字，这就是俗称的“八字”. 纪年的干支并不是以元旦或者春节作为两年的分界，而是以立春为界，立春前为前一年，立春日开始才是新的一年.
 * English Translation: Ancient China uses the combination of Stems-and-Branches to record the order number of a year, a month, a day, and hours. Once it ends and it returns back start over again, and this is the Sexagenary cycle. No matter what time it is, the combination of the year, month, day, hours always contains eight Chinese word, that is the so-called Shichen Bazi (时辰八字). Years in Sexagenary cycle did not start from January 1, or the first day of the Traditional Chinese calendar. It uses Lichun as the border of the years, before Lichun, it's previous year, after the Lichun, new year begins.
 * ["皇曆""陰曆"錯位 屬相立春為界？, A webpage from China.com.cn, a news website from China], mentioned: 陰曆是單一以月亮朔望為依據的，最古老最直觀的曆法，主要用來應付日常的時間安排；干支紀時系統則是嚴格等分的精確時間分割，主要服務於國家時間，諸如祭祀、天象、災異等，後來也為算命先生等各路術師推算吉兇所借用. 在干支紀時系統中，歲首不在正月初一，而在立春之日. 干支年曆是以節氣為基礎的歷書，一般只能由中央政府頒布，故稱“皇曆”. 我們翻開任何一本皇曆，都能看到，干支年份的變更，不在正月初一，而在立春建寅之日，大約相當於公曆的2月3日至5日之間.
 * English Translation: Traditional Chinese calendar is based on the lunar month, it's simple, old enough, and intuitive for farmers and peasants. For daily business, it works just fine. But the system in the Sexagenary cycle is much much more serious, it divided precisely, and serves the state power, such as religion ritual, astronomy observation or historical records, Chinese fortune tellers also adopted this system. In the Sexagenary cycle calendar system, first day of the year should be Lichun, not same as the Traditional Chinese calendar. Sexagenary calendar based on Solar term (aka Jieqi), only the central government has the authority to change that, that's why it also be called "Huang-li" (皇曆, the Calendar of the Emperor). Browse through every single Huang-li, you'll noticed years in Sexagenary cycle only change at Lichun, approximately between February 3 to February 5.
 * --LC.Lau (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * In one of the sources, it sounds like there was some controversy in 2006, (using Google Translate):
 * 2006年年初，新華社轉發《羊城晚報》一則新聞稱：“今年2月4日是農曆初七，立春，狗年應該從這一天開始算起——著名民俗學家葉春生教授提醒公眾，生肖是從立春而不是從正月初一開始算起的. ”
 * In early 2006, the Xinhua News Agency forward, "the Yangcheng Evening News," a news report said: "This year is the Lunar New Year on February 4 seventh day, the beginning of spring, year of the Dog should begin to run from that day - the famous folklorist Professor Ye Chunsheng reminded the public that animals are From the beginning of spring and not begin to run from the first day of. "
 * 各大媒體迅速抓住這一話題，各地民俗學家紛紛被邀發言. 大部分學者都反對葉春生的說法，上海民俗文化學會會長仲富蘭教授甚至激動地說：“這是一種混淆視聽的錯誤說法，它把'生肖'與'節氣'兩個不同的系統給混同起來了. ”還有學者直斥葉春生“違背科學、違背民俗、違背歷史”. 但是，《新民晚報》開通的新聞熱線卻顯示，過半讀者都支援葉春生的“生肖從立春算起”.
 * The major media were quick to seize this issue, local folklorists have been invited to speak. Most scholars have to say against Ye Chunsheng, president of Shanghai Institute of Folk Culture, Professor Zhong Fulan even excitedly said: "This is a confusing error argument, it is the 'zodiac' and 'moral courage' to confuse the two different systems together a. "Another scholar lashed Ye Chunsheng," contrary to science, contrary to folklore, contrary to history. " However, the "Xinmin Evening News" open news hotline have shown that more than half of readers support Ye Chunsheng's "Zodiac counting from the beginning of spring."
 * As another user mentioned above, you've also made changes to the Chinese zodiac and Sexagenary cycle articles, but I'm as yet unconvinced these changes are well supported by reliable sources.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 02:47, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * What Professor Zhong Fulan said is: "Ye Chunsheng is trying to confuse people, Chinese zodiac and the Solar term are two different things in two different systems". But clearly he is wrong, obviously the fact is that there IS a connection between the Chinese zodiac and the Solar term. Chinese zodiac is a zodiac system based on the twelve Earthly Branches, and Solar term (Jieqi) is a very important part on the Sexagenary cycle. In the Sexagenary cycle, each year, month, day and hours have its own name based on the Stems-and-Branches system. --LC.Lau (talk) 09:58, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

RfC: Chinese zodiac Controversy
Should the start of the Chinese zodiac year be changed to always occur on Feb. 4 in the Chinese astrology, Chinese zodiac and Sexagenary cycle articles? Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 03:22, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Helmer Aslaksen of the University of Singapore, an expert on the Chinese calendar, states on page 22 of "The mathematics of the Chinese calendar" "Some astrological sources also use a third year [besides the lunisolar nian year and the winter solstice sui year] running from one beginning of spring (lichun) to the next, and claim that your Chinese zodiac animal (shengxiao shuxiang) should be based on this. In 1960, Chinese New Year fell on January 28 while the beginning of spring fell on February 5. If you were born on February 1, you would not be considered a Rat, but a Pig!" This implies that other astrological sources do not use a lichun year, and that a zodiac animal applicable only during a lichun year is unusual (note the exclamation point). In general see pages 21–22 and 35–36.


 * Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires that both opinions (a lunisolar year and a lichun year, and possibly a winter solstice year) be in the articles. This can take any of several forms, (1) a note stating that the Sexagenary cycle beginning at lichun "about February 4" is used by some astrological sources, (2) a separate column next to the lunisolar year listing the date that each lichun year begins (February 3, 4, or 5), or (3) a separate column listing the date and time that each lichun year begins (and ends?). My calculations result in times close to those given in the "your zodiac" links of Feng Shui since 1988 by Nicholas Teo, which only cover 1940–2020. Dates (and times) for other years are easily derived. — Joe Kress (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I suggest remove the starting and ending point of a year from the form, instead adding a note on the the article. --LC.Lau (talk) 02:27, 18 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The consensus, (3 to 1), is not to remove the starting and ending dates. I agree a note should be added (per Joe Kress WP:NPOV): "The Sexagenary cycle [begins] at lichun 'about February 4' [according to] some astrological sources". I've modified the text about "actual year" and added the note to Chinese astrology. I've also undone the change and added the note to both Chinese zodiac and Sexagenary cycle. I've cited the China Network article for the note in each:
 * —Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 22:47, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * —Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 22:47, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

All comments above are rather old and unorganized. I was looking at the dates for the "year" in each column and I'm not sure what "calendar" it's supposed to be based on. If it's the lunar calendar, it's wrong and needs to be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.102.229.80 (talk) 23:44, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

The Rounding of 11.86 to 12
Hi, Ip here.

Can anyone tell me if the sexagesimal cycle of element/animal is related to the actual positions of any planets or if it's just basically nonsense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3169:3E00:188A:AE7E:DA57:AF95 (talk) 07:26, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

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