Talk:Chinese astronomy

Untitled
I know very little about this subject. I tried to expand the article but it still needs attention. Especially something needs to be said about astronomy in modern China. I know there are active observatories and programs but that's it. Katherine Tredwell 20:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Description on preparing calendar
"The Chinese used a lunisolar calendar, but because the cycles of the Sun and the Moon are different, astronomers often prepared new calendars and made observations for that purpose."

Besides this astronomers had to prepare a new calendar after the fall of the old dynasty. Calendar in ancient China was considered to be the symbol of the dynasty.

I've cleaned this document up a bit, fixing grammatical errors here and there, and have added new information to 'beef it up'. However, this article is far from finished, and I will dedicate some more time soon in getting some worthy passages from Joseph Needham and the like.

Yours truly, --PericlesofAthens 00:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Amateur astronomy in China
Is that a good idea to include amateur astronomy as part of the article?--Dobs 16:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Jesuit activity in China
I cannot agree to the telescope part. I read so many materials written in Chinese, and most of them claimed that the royal family saw telescopes as toy. Jesuit really bought telescopes to China, but the impact on Chinese astronomy was limited. At least Chinese astronomers built and used so many large equipment in 17 century.

Usually, when the Chinese talk about Jesuit contributions, they mostly talk about the reform in calendar. Some Jesuit members even worked there.

It is true that there were some establishments mentioned telescope, some guys even made one themselves. However, those telescopes are not for observing stars.--Dobs 05:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, at least I beefed up the article a bit, and added more info about Zhang Heng's water-powered armillary sphere. However, this article needs major reconstruction and editing. And when I say major, that's an understatement. --PericlesofAthens 22:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This section is incorrect# Asia in the European Age by Michael Edwardes, published vy asia publishing house, 1961 ::- pg. 103 -


 * Matteo Ricci - a Jesuit Priest in China arriving in 1603 and taking the name of Li Ma-Tou - reformed the calendar, revolutionised Chinese astronomy and discredited the Muslim astronomy which threatened the Chinese throne
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.48.6 (talk) 22:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Three errors here:
 * 1. "Thus, the Jesuits shared an Earth-centered and largely pre-Copernican astronomy with their Chinese hosts (i.e., the Ptolemaic-Aristotelian views from Hellenistic times)."
 * The phases of Venus killed the Ptolemaic system and threw Aristotelian physics into question. [Astronomy was a branch of mathematics in those days, not of physics.  The Aristotelians disapproved of Ptolemy and regarded it as a computational algorithm, not a description of the physical world.]  Ricci introduced the system of nested spheres in an effort to dislodge the "flat rectangle earth with China in the center."  After the phases of Venus killed the Ptolemaic system, Tycho Brahe devised the geo-helio system, and this is the system that Shreck, Schall, and the others tried to teach in China.


 * 2. This contradicted the Aristotelian view of solid concentric crystalline spheres, where there was not a void, but a mass of air between the heavenly bodies.
 * Incorrect. Aristotle taught that the spheres were made of a "fifth element" (quint essence) called aether.  This was not the luminiferous aether of Lorenz and Mach, but more closely resembles what we now call "dark matter."  Air was the element =below= the aether.


 * 3. Of course, the views of Copernicus, Galileo, and Tycho Brahe would eventually triumph in European science

Tycho did not endorse the Copernican system, but devised a geo-helio system in which the planets went round the sun, but the sun went round the earth. At the time of the Jesuit mission in China, there was no observational distinction between the two, and the Tychonic system remained the more popular. The Keplerian system (sun-centered, elliptical orbits, no epicycles) eventually defeated (thanks to Newton) both the Ursine/Tychonic system (earth-centered, rotating earth, citcular orbits, no epicycles) and the Copernican system (sun-centered, circular orbits, twenty epicycles)


 * The following comes from Toby Huff, Intellectual Curiosity and the Scientific Revolution, Cambridge University Press, 2011, pp.72-114.
 * Astronomy in Ming China fell under the Bureau of Mathematics and Astronomy within the Ministry of Rites. As such, it was employed for calendar-making and the divining of lucky and unlucky days.  It was not considered as an investigation of the natural world.  There was no such thing as private or individual astronomy as practiced by Harriot, Fabricius, Pereisc, and others in Europe.  When Xu Guangqi (a Catholic convert under the name "Dr. Paul" and head of the imperial Calendar Reform project) tried to write about the telescope, he had to use circumlocutions to express "concave" and "convex" lenses because Chinese at the time had no words for these concepts and no native lens-grinding technology.  The understanding of optics had not achieved the levels of al-Haytham in the 11th century.  This, and their lack of a Euclidean spherical geometry, was a severe handicap.  Xu himself was absolutely entranced with the systematic geometry of Euclid and helped Ricci translate it into Chinese.


 * Cardinal Borromeo had given Schreck a Keplerian telescope (wider view, better focus, inverted image) when Scheck had been inducted as the 7th member of the Academy of Lynxes. (Galileo had been the 6th.)  Schreck took this telescope to China and later presented it to the emperor.  It is the one written of by Xu, Schall, and others.


 * Adam Schall was later named Mandarin and placed in charge of the Bureau of Mathematics and Astronomy. He was eventually arrested for unauthorized use of a telescope and for choosing inauspicious days.  He was sentenced to dismemberment but the sentence was commuted to house arrest after an earthquake convinced the judge of the Council of Deliberate Officials that they had misbehaved.  (It was believed that not only did the stars influence events on earth, but that the behavior of the emperor and his officials influenced events in heaven.  This made it very dangerous to miss an astronomical prediction.  This is also why astronomical observations were for the emperor only.  They were regarded as reports sent from heaven to the emperor, just as the tao-riders brought reports from the prefectures to the emperor.)  The other astronomers, who had been sentenced to 40 blows with the bamboo then exile were commuted variously.  The princess dowager intervened for the Jesuits, the Chinese Confucian astronomers were pardoned, and the Chinese Christian astronomers were beheaded.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.121.134.238 (talk) 00:45, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * There's some good and bad in here. The stuff about lenses and Euclid is right on and the translation of The Elements was an important improvement for Chinese math. At the same time, yes, the Jesuits did precisely teach Ptolemaic astronomy well after it was debunked and even well after it was discredited. The arguments between different Jesuits and Jesuits & other foreigners was used by the mandarins as an excuse not to even bother with using either system and continuing on with the traditional version. Schall rose to power despite strong opposition because the Bureau missed an eclipse with all three of its traditional systems but was arrested not for "choosing inauspicious days" but for (essentially) witchcraft.


 * See both sources given below for better treatment of this interesting time. — LlywelynII  07:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Earliest Recorded Chinese Eclipse
In the 8th century BC topic it states:
 * 780 BC: The first historic solar eclipse is recorded in China

Is this correct, as I don't see any mention of it in this topic? Terry Macro (talk) 02:20, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

According to The Timetables of History p 9 the solar eclipse of September 6 775 BC was the first eclipse (solar) in China that allowed an autheticated date in Chinese history. Terry Macro (talk) 08:14, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Sources for article expansion
In addition the cited book, Needham also has a good overview in
 * "Astronomy in Ancient and Medieval China"

that can be used to expand some points. Similarly, George Wong's
 * "China's Opposition to Western Science during Late Ming and Early Ch'ing"

presents a good overview of some of the mandarins who opposed Jesuit astronomers and their reasons for doing so, even in the face of patently superior results. — LlywelynII  06:55, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Both sources look reliable. Thank you for finding them.--Ninthabout (talk) 04:51, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Islamic Astronomy during the Ming dynasty
Islamic astronomy in ming china

http://books.google.com/books?id=aKLr5duAiwMC&pg=PA76#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=iA1ZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA107&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LYvDULHULKXV0gH8lIDwCQ&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=-UhVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA107&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LYvDULHULKXV0gH8lIDwCQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA36&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LYvDULHULKXV0gH8lIDwCQ&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA382&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LYvDULHULKXV0gH8lIDwCQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=pXLO2k1oaPsC&pg=PA160&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LYvDULHULKXV0gH8lIDwCQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=cEfiZlUpI5oC&pg=PA27&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LYvDULHULKXV0gH8lIDwCQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=wV0NHaVG0-sC&pg=PA223&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MozDULKuLKjE0AGR9IHgBQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=BxrVIMubOikC&pg=PA24&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MozDULKuLKjE0AGR9IHgBQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=RrPJVT-FunMC&pg=PA284&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MozDULKuLKjE0AGR9IHgBQ&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=8hOgAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA457&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MozDULKuLKjE0AGR9IHgBQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqb7L-pKCV8C&pg=PA382#v=onepage&q&f=false

Page 66

https://www.princeton.edu/~elman/documents/Benjamin%20A%20%20Elman%20On%20Their%20Own%20Terms%20-%20Science%20in%20China%201550-1900%20(2005).pdf

Page 33 and 34

http://books.google.com/books?id=gu5VAAAAYAAJ&q=Hui+hui+astronomy&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MozDULKuLKjE0AGR9IHgBQ&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBjgK

http://books.google.com/books?id=SQWW7QgUH4gC&pg=PA510&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MozDULKuLKjE0AGR9IHgBQ&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=1emXJemW-jgC&pg=PT990&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MozDULKuLKjE0AGR9IHgBQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwATgK

http://books.google.com/books?id=XULERYYEJo0C&pg=PA22&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LYvDULHULKXV0gH8lIDwCQ&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=GNpdcKMZyg0C&pg=PA148&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LYvDULHULKXV0gH8lIDwCQ&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=gQYscrT0fgQC&pg=PA697&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LYvDULHULKXV0gH8lIDwCQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=raKRY3KQspsC&pg=PA454&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LYvDULHULKXV0gH8lIDwCQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=iFxGpHGMAZQC&pg=PA125&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MozDULKuLKjE0AGR9IHgBQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=iN9Tdfdap5MC&pg=PA451&dq=Hui+hui+astronomy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MozDULKuLKjE0AGR9IHgBQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=Hui%20hui%20astronomy&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=AG2XBCmxYcUC&pg=PA336#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/chinese-iranian-iii

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/chinese-iranian-viii

回回历法 huíhuí lìfǎ

http://catalogs.ihns.ac.cn/bitstream/311051/3159/1/回回历法中若干天文数据之研究_陈美东.pdf

http://www.nxcbn.com/HuiZu/NChapterItem.aspx?show=k&id=130425

http://www.nxcbn.com/HuiZu/NChapterItem.aspx?id=130428

http://st.ustc.edu.cn/lab/24xi/zhrji.htm

http://www.xjass.com/mzwh/content/2010-03/23/content_140268.htm

http://dict.cn/回回历法

http://www.cqvip.com/QK/90972X/200302/7766806.html

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/chinese-iranian-vii

https://books.google.com/books?id=_P6C4JO4JCUC&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=_P6C4JO4JCUC&pg=PA167#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~qing/WEB/HSU_KUANG-CH'I.html

Rajmaan (talk) 00:40, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

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