Talk:Chinese constellations/Archive 1

The Order, a serious problem
The correct order goes EAST, NORTH, WEST, and then SOUTH. It might sound counterintuitive, but there's substantial reason why this is THE order. I just corrected the table, and you can see that the last one (Ji) in the East matches with the first one Dou in the North as they both belong to Saggitarius. In fact, if put in the coorect order, the 28 constellation should complete a cycle roughly along the ecliptic, and hence roughly match the 12 zodiac constellations, in order. I suppose every serious book on this topic should have it in the correct order. (I know it is for Modern Chinese Dictionary, from which I myself memorized the 28 Xiu.) So there's no question. Sadly even the Chinese Wikipedia has it wrong. The Japanese got it correctly though.

By calling it counterintuitive, I mean what Chinese today tend to think is not the traditional way. If you speak Chinese, east-south-west-north (dong-nan-xi-bei) should unquestionably be the correct saying. There must have been a complete flip sometime in history when we started to see maps oriented with north upward. However, if you are a Chinese, especially a Northerner, you should have a sense of direction with the south being the forward direction, and sun rises from your left hand side and sets in your right hand side. The Forbidden City is facing south (where Tiananmen sits); Emperors used to be crowned facing south; and many buildings both in urban and rural areas are positioned facing south. It seems a trivial matter, but it is of fundamential importance. The modern way of drawing maps with north up and calling east-south-west-north the right order really is against the traditions.

Anyways. We certainly would like it in the correct order. I corrected the table in this article, but I don't know how to modify the template appearing in other articles

-Liuyao


 * Fixed. To edit yourself, go to Template:Chinese constellation. 71.102.186.234 11:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. But I don't think this is a traditional-modern problem. I've done some research at some ancient astronomical text, when talking about constellations, they also use EAST-NORTH-WEST-SOUTH order. Yao Ziyuan 00:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

enclosures and mansions
the article does not make it clear where the enclosures are in relation to the mansions. the 3 enclosures lie over more northern regions or earth, right? And are distinct from the mansions, right? This should be stated clearly in article.

Also, why does it say "The Purple Forbidden Enclosure occupies the northernmost area of the night sky", but then goes on to say "The Supreme Palace Enclosure lies east and north to the Purple Forbidden Enclosure"???? This doesn't make any sense. If one is northernmost, nothing is more north of it. Please correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poikiloid (talk • contribs) 21:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Subaru
Is Japanese Subaru the same as Chinese Mao? Or are Japanese constellations different from Chinese ones? --Error 01:53, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Japanese certainly use Chinese constellations... ofcourse there are also Japanese constellations... 70.51.11.91 (talk) 09:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
rename

Chinese constellation → Chinese constellations — This article talks about all the Chinese constellations, not just the concept of a Chinese constellation, and should therefore be plural. — 70.51.8.234 (talk) 11:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Support per English grammar. --Voidvector (talk) 21:14, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

23 asterisms?
This article states there are 23 asterismsm but as the horn mansion alone has 11 asterisms, this is either wrong or misleading. Can someone assist in straightening this out? This claim of 23 asterisms is found on other pages as well. Wakablogger2 (talk) 08:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see any support of the 23 asterism claim, or even a list of these asterisms. Does anyone have any citations for these claims? DenisMoskowitz (talk) 18:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * As per this section, I have deleted the following paragraph in the introduction:

The Three Enclosures and the Twenty-Eight Mansions are further divided into 23 asterisms. Each visible star is assigned into one of the asterisms. Some of the asterisms only have one star. Traditionally, a star is named by combining the name of its asterism with a number, very similar to Bayer and Flamsteed designations in Western astronomy.

Wakablogger2 (talk) 18:25, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Sources for article expansion
In addition the cited book, Needham also has a good overview in
 * "Astronomy in Ancient and Medieval China"

that can be used to expand some points. Similarly, George Wong's
 * "China's Opposition to Western Science during Late Ming and Early Ch'ing"

presents a good overview of some of the mandarins who opposed Jesuit astronomers and their reasons for doing so, even in the face of patently superior results. — LlywelynII  06:55, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Determinative stars?
What exactly do we mean by "determinative star"? Each of these mansions are made up of several asterisms -- I don't understand how one can define a mansion by a single star. Zaryn (talk) 03:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Map
this article really really needs a map!!! 71.102.186.234 11:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added maps for all 28 xiù (mansions) and the san yuán. Su huynh 18:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Problem: But this is English article, maps are chinese. Perhaps, english maps would be nice. Also, need a map showing all constellations together in one, including enclosures. (see enclosures and mansions section.)
 * I've been working on creating a Chinese culture sky map in Stellarium. Let me make sure that those screenshots can be freely shared.  If so, I can add some English maps (eventually).Zaryn (talk) 03:26, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Missing asterism?
In the list of southern asterisms, 海山 is not present. The article describes 23 asterisms but there only seem to be 22 in the list, so it seems that it should be added? Also, is the common translation "Sea & Mountain" the best one, or should it just be "Sea Mountain"? Lithopsian (talk) 10:35, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll answer my own question. I went to add the row and it was already there, but the table format was corrupted.  Someone that reads Chinese better than me might want to double-check. I also changed the number of stars from 6 to 4, see Talk:Musca (Chinese astronomy) for details.  Lithopsian (talk) 18:56, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I proposed a merge of the article Twenty-eight mansions into this article, as well as the transfer of the picture from Twenty-eight mansions into this article, because:
 * The name "Twenty-eight mansion" is ambiguous, it could refer to either the 28 Arabic lunar mansions, or the Babylonian lunar mansions, or the Persian lunar mansions, etc.
 * The article Twenty-eight mansion is an exact copy of a section from this article. If one person make an edit on this article, there is a chance that the other article will be forgotten and less updated than this one. In other word, the other article is redundant.--Rochelimit (talk) 14:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose: as mansion (disambiguation) points out (among other places on the internet), the Chinese system is by far the primary topic; it could legitimately bump the multicultural approach currently occupying lunar mansion. Feel free to move it to Chinese lunar mansions or lunar mansions (China) if you like, though. There is enough material to justify the split and the topic is certainly notable; if they're currently clones, turn the subsection on this page into a gloss and link over there. — Llywelyn II   08:34, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose--WikiHannibal (talk) 23:36, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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International Dunhuang Project
No need to link to an archive of the IDP site. The original is still here http://idp.bl.uk/education/astronomy/sky.html Skeptic2 (talk) 07:25, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion of questionable star chart
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%E6%98%9F%E8%B1%A1%E5%9B%BE.svg

This star chart seems to contradict other sources, including those provided by Stellarium. The most troubling discrepancy is that the description that states "the 28 mansions indicated on the border of each hemisphere" is absolutely inaccurate - the Chinese characters on the borders instead correspond to the 24 solar terms.

135.180.66.38 (talk) 02:52, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Chinese new year
Aetizaz (talk) 10:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) freefire

2012
Aetizaz (talk) 10:36, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) 9mat