Talk:Chinua Achebe/Archive 1

Early comments
Shouldn't this entry have a little more on Achebe's actual life? The section on "later life" has more to do with "later work" or "influence" than with the man himself. For example, his paralysis due to car crash is not even mentioned once.

-- Nathan

Just made a small edit to take out the country names after the non-US universities. Putting the country names after non-US universities (i.e. for Canadian and African Universities) but not for US universities presumes US readership. The links to the Universities are there anyway - if someone doesn't know where the Uni is, they can click the link. Arianna 23:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The link to the text of "An Image of Africa: Racism in Conrad's Heart of Darkness" (http://www.erinyes.org/hod/image.of.africa.html ) doesn't work :-( I don't have time to look at a better one, can some do it ?

--Farialima 09:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Achebe is still alive, so wouldn't this essay still be copyright and therefore not linkable?

-Arianna 23:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's linkable as long as the site we link to has permission to display it. In any case, works don't go out of copyright as soon as the author dies. In the European Union and US, copyright lasts for life plus seventy years.--GagHalfrunt 00:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Some of this entry reads as if it might be taken from an official biography or some other copyrighted material.
 * That is actually the style we're after – as long as copyright is not infringed. I could investigate your concerns if you can provide references. Dave 21:16, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Unsourced quotes, subjective material
The paragraph starting with "Many scholars believe that Achebe has had to bear a heavy moral burden..." seems to be a matter of opinion, especially because it starts with "many scholars believe" and includes uncited quotes. The following item is particularly subjective:

there has emerged a consistent pattern of overlooking Achebe - Africa's greatest literary ambassador - for the Nobel prize, further fueling the charge of a "racist backlash."


 * I hope this concern has been adequately addressed. The statements have been softened and cited meticulously.DBaba 17:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Nwando Achebe
Nwando Achebe is Chinua Achebe's daughter and is a professor at Michigan State University. She has written several articles on Africa including: Getting to the Source (Daughter, Wife and Guest-A Researcher at the Crossroads) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.172.93.60 (talk) 17:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

Ogidi or Nneobi?
The article states he was born in the former in the infobox and the latter the in the text. Does anyone known which it was? Picaroon (t) 03:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Chinua Achebe: A Biography, on page 4, says he is from Ikenga, in Ogidi. I will correct the article accordingly. Picaroon (t) 03:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you're misreading that page. If you mean the sentence which reads "The young man from Ikenga village in Ogidi…", that's referring to Chinua's father Isaiah. (Notice it goes on to say "He became known as 'Achebe 1904'", which doesn't make sense for the man born in 1930. But it does make sense for his father.)


 * Meanwhile, on p. 6 it says: "Isaiah Achebe was teaching at St Simon's Church, Nneobi, when his fifth surviving child and fourth son [Chinua] was born on 16 November 1930. … In 1935, … the family returned to settle in Isaiah Achebe's ancestral village of Ikenga, Ogidi.…" – Scartol  ·  Talk  19:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Comprehensive revision/overhaul
I'm currently in the process of reconstructing this article, in the hopes of making into an FA candidate. If things seem disjointed or confusing at present, I'm working my way through. Hopefully it will be more coherent when I'm done. Please don't make any large structural changes without posting something here first. Thanks. – Scartol  ·  Talk  17:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, Scartol, this is coming along really well! It looks like the Ezenwa-Ohaeto book is a golden source.  Do you think it might be worthwhile to actually flesh out the section on works?  In addition to covering the non-biographical details of his major works, we could include the section on his children's stories, short stories, literary criticism?  I was actually thinking of something similar to the works section of Awadewit's Mary Wollstonecraft.  I'm also thinking we'll eventually need a section on Achebe and the Rise of African Literature, or something like that.  Sorry I haven't been of much help yet, but I have been reading up! --JayHenry 18:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much. I've been going through the Ezenwa-Ohaeto book as my main source, filling in the chronological details; then I'm going to add critical views and other perspectives. (My main concern is that I may be adding too much extraneous stuff.) I've been integrating the novels into the biography; do you think it's better to separate them out? I will be doing sections on style and legacy, like I did for Balzac. Thanks in advance for your help – it's actually a good thing for me if I can get through this first part without other major additions from outside. So no worries at all. Cheers. – Scartol  ·  Talk  18:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I don't have good sources on his biography anyways, but I do have better material on Style and Legacy type stuff. I think the Major Works style might work well here.  I think it'd be nice to have more detail on the plot and style of Things Fall Apart for example, but that section of the biography is already quite long.  And it'd be especially good for integrating things like his literary criticism and short stories which don't fit quite as nicely into a chronological framework.  So I'm not saying separate them out completely -- obviously we need to know where Achebe was in his life when he wrote Things Fall Apart and how it affected him personally -- but I think detail of the non-biographical aspects of Things Fall Apart might work better in its own section.  Just an idea really, I'm not wedded to it, but I also notice that right now the paragraph on his short stories (which I have some material to expand to 2-3 good graphs) doesn't quite fit, whereas I think it would fit quite nicely under this framework. --JayHenry 19:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That part about the short stories was already here when I showed up, and I've just been dumping things and moving around as I get to the section of the article in question. Feel free to go nuts on it. Hopefully we won't trip over each other when I get to that aspect. – Scartol  ·  Talk  01:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Okay, I've finished with the biography, and after reflecting on it, I think I'd prefer not to move the info about the novels to a separate section. The fault may rest with me – I integrated it all very thoroughly into his bio, and I bristle at the notion of extricating it. (A Man of the People is so essentially connected to the coup and civil war that it would feel weird to have the parts about it supplanted.)

I suppose this is something of a WP:ILIKEIT affair. My personal preference is to get the story of the person's life and work first, and then go back for additional commentary afterwards. Having a quick look at the FAs on authors, it looks like they're pretty evenly split on whether to include the works in the bio or not; Robert A. Heinlein, Rachel Carson, and Rudyard Kipling do. William Shakespeare and Henry James and James Joyce do not.

You said you're not wedded to it, so I hope it's okay if we leave the novels as they are? – Scartol  ·  Talk  02:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's fine with me. It was a mild preference, but since you've done all the work I don't really think I should have much say anyways.  It really does look great! --JayHenry 03:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. It feels so nice to be done with the E-O book; it's a great resource, but it's been tough slogging through all sorts of extraneous info about every article in Okike to get to the basics on his life. Now I get to read through lots of shorter books to find the other info. Cheers! – Scartol  ·  Talk  11:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Just some random thoughts

 * In Marriage and family: Are we to infer that he knew Christie was at the hospital because he was essentially stalking her?
 * No, the book does a better job than I at discussing the subtlety of their early interactions; I removed the bit about not advertising her operation. – Scartol  ·  Talk  15:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In Teaching and producing: Should we maybe say more about what the NBS is. A private TV network would be quite a bit different from a state-controlled radio station.
 * Agreed. I'll add some more info tonight. (Is it wise to redlink an article which doesn't exist? Do you plan to start it, or do you know someone who does?) – Scartol  ·  Talk  15:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. – Scartol  ·  Talk  02:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In fellowship travels: "he traveled to Kenya, where he was required to complete an immigration form by checking a box indicating his ethnicity: European, Asiatic, Arab, or Other." Now I understand African is missing, but I'm unclear the significance.  Is it that even in Kenya they assume no African would travel?  Or that African is not an ethnicity?  That Africans cannot be lumped together the way Europeans can?
 * The key here in the book is the shock at not seeing one's own identity represented in any way. I suppose it was supposed to be subsumed into "Asiatic", but I'm not sure. I'll try to make it clearer. – Scartol  ·  Talk  15:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. – Scartol  ·  Talk  02:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In Criticism of Conrad: I altered the quote from the professor who'd never really read the book. I have it in a different book with grammatically correct wording.  If that's not how it is in your version perhaps we should [sic] it or use the quote from elsewhere.
 * I'll check it tonight. – Scartol  ·  Talk  15:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The wording you use is the same in my copy of Hopes and Impediments. I changed the citation. – Scartol  ·  Talk  02:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In Retirement and politics: The paragraph about Albert Schweitzer seems a bit disjointed. Is this a criticism he made in retirement?
 * Dang! I forgot all about that paragraph. It was in there from earlier, and I meant to go back and clean it up. Thanks to you and WillowW for your repairs. I'll try to work it more coherently in, if it still needs it. (I don't know if your comment was made before or after her work.) – Scartol  ·  Talk  15:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So apparently the Schweitzer hubub was part of the Conrad brouhaha. I've worked it into the Criticism of Conrad section. – Scartol  ·  Talk  02:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In Themes: I'm wondering to what extent Achebe's novels in the 1950s have a connection with Olaudah Equiano's experiences in the 1750s. I seem to recall that there's actually a lot of credence given to the theories that Equiano wasn't actually born in Africa and an author claiming that Achebe somehow validates Equiano might be staking a claim in a debate that's not really pertinent to our little Achebe article in the first place.
 * Yeah, I thought it was an interesting connection, but I certainly don't want to unleash any cans of worms. On the other hand, Mezu has a whole chapter about the connection between them, so it may be worthwhile to at least mention it. I'll read that chapter more closely tonight and put some more work in there. – Scartol  ·  Talk  15:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Mezu makes the point that Achebe, while writing in the 50s, was depicting (especially in TFA) events that took place around the same time as Equiano's experiences (ie, the arrival of white folks). Insofar as Achebe himself once weighed in on it, I decided to leave it in, but I tried to clarify this spot. – Scartol  ·  Talk  02:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Did he never meet Ngugi wa Thiong'o? It seems like they're the two polar figures in the schism in African Literature between using African languages and English.  Surely they have opinions on each other?  I'd be interested to know more about his relationship with Soyinka who did win a Nobel prize.
 * Agreed. I'll add more tonight. – Scartol  ·  Talk  15:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, I put Ngugi wa Thiong'o info in the English style section – they met early on, and there's a laudatory quote from him about Achebe, but I didn't think it fit very well. So I just kept it to the English question. I also put in two bits about Soyinka: One in the Civil war section (about his imprisonment), including a quote from Achebe; and one in the Legacy section, about the Nobel prize (incl. another quote). – Scartol  ·  Talk  02:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Article is awesome. Great work scartol! --JayHenry 03:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much, Jay. I appreciate your time and attention to detail. – Scartol  ·  Talk  15:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

English variation
At the Featured Article candidacy for this page, suggested that the article should use Commonwealth spellings. I disagree, but I don't want to be obstinate, so let's discuss it here. Thanks in advance for everyone who works to make this article the best it can be. – Scartol  ·  Talk  17:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what there is to discuss :) This isn't an optional thing. WP:ENGVAR is clear. It should be no more contentious than the changing of hyphens to en dashes and em dashes or replacing US with U.S. (or vice versa).-- R OGER D AVIES  TALK 17:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Achebe is a professor at an American university. As a consequence he's done a large amount of his writing (the vast majority of his critical output) in American English, such as his Conrad essay.  Indeed there is nothing to discuss; Achebe is clearly an ambiguous case, and therefore we are compelled by ENGVAR to defer to Scartol. --JayHenry 20:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much for your comments. Achebe certainly has does have ties to the US but what makes you think that there's any ambiguity about whether his national ties are stronger to Nigeria or to the US? Consider this:
 * The article we're discussing opens with Chinua Achebe ... is a Nigerian novelist, poet and critic.'
 * Achebe self-identifies as a Nigerian: Unesco Courier June 2001
 * The same article also explains that he had the choice he would live in Nigeria. He lives outside it for practical reasons (hospital and medication availability).
 * He is internationally known as a Nigerian writer not an American one.
 * He is a national icon in Nigeria. He is not a national icon in the US.
 * WP:ENGVAR acknowledges that people are entitled to read about their national icons in spellings they're most familiar with.
 * -- R OGER D AVIES  TALK 21:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That's all well and good, but you're making this into a really legalistic thing, arguing over which country he has stronger or more relevant ties to. Indeed, we could argue across the whole wiki to establish which country has closer ties to which article.  Strong national ties is really only for when it's unambiguous.  Like Tony Blair or U.S. Senate.  The spirit of ENGVAR is even clearer than the letter -- don't make a fuss about this sort of thing, don't go about arguing to have the variety switch back and forth on established articles.  Indeed, ENGVAR means letting this one slide, Roger. --JayHenry 21:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Firstly, Achebe's identity is unambiguous. With respect, it was you that introduced the notion that residency in the US was stronger than the writer's iconic status. You even went so far as to say that this "left nothing to discuss". If you attempt to dismiss argument out of hand, I will respond with facts. Secondly, the point of WP:ENGVAR is that one size doesn't fit all. It acknowledges that the encyclopedic is global and that the English-speaking world has more than one spelling system. It aims to match the subject to the most appropriate one. Thirdly, changing the spelling is a one-off and trivial. Fourthly, Achebe is a national icon; Nigerian kids looking him up on Wikipedia are entitled to see familiar spelling. I don't understand why this is contentious. -- R OGER D AVIES  TALK 22:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry Roger, but I disagree with your interpretation of ENGVAR. I guess we'll have to leave it at that.  Cheers! --JayHenry 00:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If you feel strongly about it, MOS does invite people to raise disputes over interpretation on their talk page. -- R OGER D AVIES  TALK 00:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Thoroughgoing v. bloody racist
Investigating the issue I found this version of the essay which claims in an editor's note that it was originally bloody and was later changed to thoroughgoing. I can't vouch for that note and don't have access to Jstor at the moment to verify. Interesting. --JayHenry 02:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, but insofar as the only print source I have says thoroughgoing, I'd vote for that. (Maybe if we can get a more firm source for "bloody" we can explain the difference in the article?) Thanks for looking into it, JH. – Scartol  ·  Talk  02:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. And if Achebe later changed it to thoroughgoing that would seem to be his preferred version anyways.  We'd probably leave the "thoroughgoing" version in the lead is my initial thought. --JayHenry 02:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The following print source has 'bloody.' Postcolonial Discourses: An Anthology. Ed. Gregory Castle. Blackwell. Oxford. 2001. Achebe's article is pp.210-219. The use of 'bloody' occurs on p.215. The anthology also gives the original source; I don't have the anthology in front of me (just my notes), so I can't doublecheck it. Perhaps 'thoroughgoing' is (now) Achebe's preferred version, but it seems to me his use of 'bloody' goes even further towards explaining the controversary his article orginally generated -- if that was the orginial word used, which I'm assuming it was. At the least, I feel like it might be worth mentioning in the article (or a footnote or something within the article) that that was the original word. Cheers, Genesiswinter (talk) 18:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the above print source, the article was originally published in: The Massuchusetts Review 18. (1977). pp. 782-94. Genesiswinter (talk) 04:07, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Achebe made significant edits when the essay was reprinted in Hopes and Impediments and the 3rd edition of the Norton Critical Heart of Darkness. The modified text, footnoted with the original text, can be found on the currently in print 4th edition of the Norton Critical Heart of Darkness pp. 336-349. "Bloody racist" was the original quote and should really be the primary quotation here considering the 1975 version is the one that is actually notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.15.236.130 (talk) 05:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

he is 78 now
no way to edit the age in the first section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ssavelan (talk • contribs) 19:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * If he was born in 1930 then the age of 77 would be correct. Are you suggesting that the birth date we have listed for Achebe is incorrect?  I have several Achebe sources and they all say he was born in 1930. --JayHenry (talk) 07:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Washington Post feature
Feature about Achebe in the Washington Post this morning about 50th anniversary of Things Fall Apart. Lame headline but okay story.


 * Thompson, Bob. "Things Fall Into Place".  The Washington Post (March 9, 2008).

I didn't really see much that could be used in the article, but figured Achebe enthusiasts might enjoy... --JayHenry (talk) 19:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Ogidi Nneobi redux
I just noticed that earlier this month someone changed the birth village back to Ogidi in the Infobox. This was discussed during writing as well. Is it possibly worth adding a footnote or to the article? Since Ogidi is indeed frequently (mis)identified as his place of birth, when it's actually just where he grew up, the clarification might be useful. --JayHenry (talk) 00:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

congrats
Great article, and an important one, so congrats to the contributors. I think he is given probably a bit more respect in this artcile re: critisism of conrad than he really recieved. But anyway, good work Disco (talk) 04:06, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

#1 Ladies' Detective?
I wonder if Things Fall Apart has actually had a wider readership than Alexander McCall Smith's #1 Ladies' Detective Agency first book in the series? He was born in Zimbabwe and thus might qualify as an African writer.76.173.15.226 (talk) 07:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Vultures Link
I think we need a Link to the article for the Poem Vultures, but I'm not sure how to do this, The atricle title is Vultures(Poem) for anyone who wants to do this.79.64.235.2 (talk) 11:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Done and done. Thanks for the idea, anonymous editor! We encourage you to create an account and add links on your own! Scartol  •  Tok  12:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Improper statement under legacy section
The following statement "Achebe's acceptance of the Man Booker International Prize (Oxford, UK), and the National Art Club's Medal of Honor for Literature (New York, USA), both in 2007, may be perceived as a tempering of his position on the role of international literary prizes." (found in the legacy section of the article in the part about Achebe and the Nobel prize) is phrased speculatively, which is not appropriate for an encyclopedia. I've edited to "In 2007 Achebe received the Man Booker International Prize (Oxford, UK) and the National Art Club's Medal of Honor for Literature (New York, USA)." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.83.170.123 (talk) 06:34, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. I suspect it was a clumsy attempt to join the two parts of the paragraph, but your wording works for me. Scartol  •  Tok  15:26, 1 November 2008 (UTC)