Talk:Chiropractor/Archive 1

First remarks
This article lacks a neutral point of view. Rather, it merely regurgitates the scientifically unsubstantiated claims of chiropractic. Also, it is deceptive. Most chiropractors do not treat medically because they lack the training and knowledge.


 * How is it POV? Maybe you're looking at an old edit... However... I'd like to see more about education though. How many years does a typical DC spend in school, etc. ? --Kvuo 01:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * To get a DC, most chiropractors spend 8 years in undergrad and chiropractic school, and then have to do clinical stuff for a while. &mdash; ßottesiηi  Tell me what's up 00:10, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Why Chiropractors do not treat medically
Yes. Chiropractors do not treat illness and disease with drugs or operative surgery because we do, indeed, lack the training, knowledge, and experience. This is by choice and design (and by law: take a look at the medical practice act in your respective state) rather than by deficiency as implied by the response above. While some drugs are necessary and beneficial for saving lives, they have the potential for causing great harm. As a matter of fact, Drugs and Doctors May be the Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. according to Dr. Mercola www.mercola.com/2003/jan/15/doctors_drugs.htm. And, regarding "scientifically unsubstantiated claims," much of what established medicine recommends with good conscience has not been formally "proved." As Roy Wolford, M.D. said, "We cannot easily run a $150 million 7-10 year conclusive study on every promising assembly of 'probable' evidence about preventing disease and retarding aging, so we must either stay neutral and do nothing or take a stand on the basis of imperfect evidence.

As far as education is concerned, take a look at the National University of Health Sciences site at http://www.nuhs.edu. The curriculum is comparable to that of all other medical schools minus pharmaceutical drug training and major surgical training. To begin your journey to understanding chiropractic and its benefits, take a look at the following two links:

The Science of Chiropractic and Spinal Manipulation 3/9/05 www.mercola.com/2005/mar/9/chiropractic_spine.htm Beyond Bad Backs: What Chiropractic Is and How It Can Help You www.mercola.com/2003/nov/12/beyond_bad_backs.htm

--69.209.226.205 22:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC) Shemuel Israel, D.C.

Removal of blatant POV
I just removed a lot clumsy statements and phrases meant to slander chiropractic. They were clearly added out of spite for the profession and didn't add to the knowledgebase of this article. These statements had been added by a user with only an IP address: 64.230.76.119. Please check the user's link and recognize that this user has been spamming chiropractic, alternative medicine, and some random non-related articles with a link to an anti-chiropractic discussion board. It seems to be out of shameless promotion and in hopes of boosting link popularity - two things that are highly frowned upon by Wikipedia and could result in a blockage of use.

As the article stands now, it is a factual general description of what a Doctor of Chiropractic does. It is unbiased either way. It just says what chiropractors in general do - that is align the vertebrae because they believe (and scientific evidence supports) that doing so promotes health and general well-being. That is all. As they receive a bachelor of science in nutrition, chiropractors often recommend healthier lifestyles including diet, exercise and a reduction of stress. Anything outside of that is not chiropractic and is not what a chiropractor does. Insinuations about cultish activities and magic will not be tolerated on this article because that is slanderous and untrue - two kinds of things that don't add to the knowledgebase and have no ground in a Wikipedia article. Levine2112 18:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Some additional ref. links on DC requirements for those interested: http://logan.edu/pages/academics_main.asp, bottom paragraph. Council on Chiropractic Education http://www.cce-usa.org  Also http://www.cce-usa.org/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions.pdf .91z4me 23:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

POV
How is a simple clarification that is completely and indisputably factual, POV. Please stop these unfounded allegations. -- John DO | Speak your mind  07:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * How? Simple. When there is a clear agenda behind it. Why did you change it? What about the original statement was wrong or could have been improved? You have taken an opinionless statement and added an opinion to it. You're trying to impugn chiropractors; take away or lessen their degree; pull it out of the health profession world and make it just a general doctoral degree. (Nothing against non-medical doctoral degrees. Bravo to anyone who earns one.) I'm sorry that you don't respect the D.C. degree enough to liken it to the ranks of the professional medical community. I don't think that I can change your mind about Chiropractic nor am I going to try. But the encyclopedic fact is that DCs are called doctors. They are recognized as such and licenced so by states, the federal and international governments. Every chiropractor I know goes by Doctor. I only ever see D.C. on their business card or stenciled on their office door. There's even a joke in the profession where the Chiropractors only use Doctor plus their first name. "Doctor Rick". "Doctor Steve". The Simpsons even made fun of this practice on national television. It was hilarious. Why? It's funny because it's true. So saying that a D.C. is also refered to as doctor is not pro-chiropractic opinion. It is a fact. It is not devisive. It is not propaganda. It is what it is, and it is true - opinionless and without any agenda. Can you say the same about your edit? What was the reasoning behind your edit? What drove you to do it? Really? Be honest. Levine2112 08:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * While some people contest the use of the term doctor for chiropractors, I do not. The use of the term doctor is standard for everyone with a doctorate. This goes for PhD's, MD's, DO's, OD's, and DC's. You seem to have issue with that. You claim to have nothing against non-medical doctorates, but you claim that this statement somehow impugns chiropractors. Those two statements are blatantly incompatible. The fact is that you reverted a factual statement to suit your agenda of taking possession of all articles concerning chiropractic. You have even made statements about what you will "allow" in this article. Nothing in my edit implied any agenda. If I had only included non-medical doctorates, perhaps you would have a leg to stand on. But the statement included medical and non-medical. If you wanted to revert if for stylistic reasons, that is one thing, but alleging POV is completely unfounded. I will not get into a pointless edit war over a trivial edit for which I have no particular feeling, but I weary of your allegations.-- John DO | Speak your mind  09:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * In fact, if you allege that my edit was the insertion of POV, then the same logic apples to your insertion of that sentence to begin with. The articles for medical doctor, D.O., podiatrist, optometrist, and Doctor of Philosophy don't have a similar sentence that states "They can be called simply Doctor", even though it would apply to any of them. Your questions should be self-directed. What was your agenda in inserting that sentence? I had assumed good faith on your part. The fact that you did not reciprocate good faith is troubling. If you are arguing that mentioning non-medical doctorates somehow impugns chiropractors, then insertion of that sentence in the first place was clearly intended to equate them with medical doctors. -- John DO | Speak your mind  09:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You know what? You're absolutely right. My bad. I just reverted the edit to what you had. Actually, I agree with you so much that I reverted it to what you had plus what you had added in your original explanation of the edit. Levine2112 17:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering this being a discussion page, if i could ask a question? I can see that Chiropractors like many other health professionals can use the title Dr. after completing their professional doctorate (DC) in the US. However, does anyone know if this is the situation in the UK? Other health professionals cannot, e.g. dentists, vets, opticians. I have searched the web but not finding much luck so if there are any sites that clear this up could someone post the URL? thanks


 * From the article doctor_(title): "Those who possess a doctoral degree are generally entitled to call themselves "Doctor", although restrictions apply in some jurisdictions. Dentists, podiatrists, chiropractors, osteopaths, optometrists and veterinarians are often called Doctor whether or not they possess a doctoral degree." So far as I can tell, Chiropractors call themselves doctors


 * Chiropractors are well-qualified anda entitled to the title of Doctor as much as an MD. No deception. I suggest you start by reading chiropractic education to see the course-load and hours of schooling a chiropractic student must go through to earn the title of "doctor of chiropractic". Levine2112 20:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The duration of training has no relevance here. There are three routes to being called a doctor; an MD, a PhD or one of the specialist subjects such as Law or Clinical Psychology. Are there any reputable, well-regarded establishment that teaches such a course? On a side note, Levine I think you have "taken ownership" of this article which might not be that helpful for its development. --PaulWicks 20:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

--PaulWicks 20:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There are many other routes to be called doctor. Limiting to three is your POV. Dentists are called doctors, for instance. Are they MDs, PhDs or Clinical Psychologists? The D.C. (doctor of chiropractic) degree is recognized in at least 50 countries around the world. Chiropractors are doctors. If you think there is a WP:OWN violation here, I encourage you to report it to an admin. Levine2112 20:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to acknowledge that the training in the UK at least, is rarely ever to a doctoral level - it is a batchelors degree over here and as such, using the title "doctor of chiropractic" would not be acceptable over here, especially to those of us that do have doctorates in other subjects. Hence my additions to the topic today (before I registered). I notice this is a theme that has recurred several times, and yet been censored from appearing on the listing due to a single censor with strong views on this topic. I'm new, but that article you link on WP:OWN seems totally relevant to this situation. Is there not an abitrator that can judge what would be an objective and balanced way to address this topic? Mmimm 20:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC) mmimm


 * You are welcome to bring an arbitrator to this article, but they will most likely tell you what I am telling you. Without a reliable source WP:RS (not an opinion piece, but a reference which passes WP:V) stating that the term "doctor" is being used deceptively by chiropractors and that they are not qualified to call themselves "doctor", then you addition here violates WP:NPOV and WP:OR. Thisis a collection verifiable information from reliable sources. Not opinions. Welcome to Wikipedia, however. I encourage you to read up on the policies here and I am confident that you be brought up to speed in no time at all. I do value you contributions here. Levine2112 21:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * With regards to England, this is an article about "Doctor of Chiropractic". If the D.C. title doesn't apply in England, then perhaps that could be sourced and quoted in this article (or better in a BsC article). Levine2112 21:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Then pehaps you need to point out that the article only applies in the USA? Here http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/link_file/Standards_CriteriaRecDeg.pdf is a link to the UK regulatory body for Chiropractic statement on qualifications. You will note the reference to "graduates" and "honours degree course" and "a first degree of four years full-time study" to which I referred, and no references to a doctorate. You will also find, here http://www.gcc-uk.org/files/link_file/COPSOP_8Dec05.pdf, the reference to it being against the Code of Conduct to imply a Chiropractor has a medical qualification when using the term "doctor". I assume you are happy with the quality of reference and will now consider the legitimate ammendment I proposed? Mmimm 22:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Remember, this only applies to the UK. In other countries, the term "doctor" is suitable for a chiropractor entirely. In some countries this might not be true, I think. But without references, I don't know for sure. But let's look at the reference which you provided and what it says. This is what I noted and how I interpet it:


 * must not use any title or qualification in such a way that the public may be misled as to its meaning or significance. In particular, chiropractors who use the title of ‘doctor’ and who are not registered medical practitioners must ensure that they make it clear that they are registered chiropractors and not registered medical practitioners.


 * This doesn't mean that chiropractors in the UK can't call themselves "doctor". Just that they need to make it clear when doings so that they are chiropractors and not medicators. Please let me know how you interpret this or if there is something else I should be reading. Levine2112 22:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

You acknowledge that in the UK a chiropractor will not have a doctorate? Then why prevent me from mentioning that in the article? I can only speak from my own experience, having today been to see a chiropractor for the first time, and being quite horrified that she called herself a "doctor of chiropractic" without anything but a first degree. I therefore clarified this issue with the Health Professions Council (the body that regulates 11 other health professions in the UK) who said "we would consider it a potentially misleading statement that would be investigated if any of our member professionals without a doctorate implied to the public they had that qualification". That would also be the position of my own regulatory body. Unfortunately, at present the regulation of health professionals in the UK is rather variable, and many professions do not have statutory regulation. The GCC (whose standards I linked) said "it is an unregulated term that we won't prevent our members from using" which I think is unsatisfactory. I don't know what you think, but if I was someone with a doctorate in chiropractic I would be quite annoyed if someone with only a batchelors degree implied they also had that qualification (with so much less time and cost of study, and consequently less expertise) and gave a bad impression of the profession to the public. Mmimm 23:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I cannot confirm that a chiropractor training in the UK has any less qualifications than one training the US. It seems to me that the information you provided distincly made is alright for a chiropractor in the UK to refer to themselves as a "doctor" provided that they made it clear they weren't a "medical doctor". The chiropractor you saw today identified herself as a "doctor of chiropractic"; thus she made it clear to you that she is not a medical doctor (but rather a chiropractic doctor). That seems to fullfill the code in the documentation which you provided above. Levine2112 23:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Err, hello, are you deliberately missing the point? No chiropractors are "doctors" in the UK. I have evidenced this and want it mentioned in the article (which as I understand it, is not "your" article or even an American only article, but supposed to be an objective, multi-authored and internationally relevant bit of combined knowledge). I don't have enough time to waste to comment further on this issue, but I'd like to thank you for helping me to understand that Wikipedia is not the wonderful resource I thought it was, but the personal soap-box of one or two people who think they own particular topics they are invested in. Mmimm 00:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I would have to concur with Levine. The education and training are post college level no matter where it is given.  The fact that someone allegedly represented themselves as a "doctor" of any kind without the proper training is a problem everywhere.  There are far more people parading as medical doctors with no degrees in hospitals removing organs to be truly disturbing.   Steth 00:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

COMPLETELY UNREFERENCED!!
A horribly written article. I believe citations and references should be added. Until then, keep the minimalist front page. Don't like it? Add via the wiki way! Have fun! 68.101.0.207 19:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

-It's not even an article, it's a definition. I'm wondering if it should be included in wiki to begin with... Naysie (my tildes key is broken...)


 * This page does need to be referenced, but deleting material is not a good idea. -- Levine2112 discuss 22:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Redirect?
Please discuss before a redirect is added to this page. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What are your objections to it? It is a comepletely unreferenced article on a subject that is covered in more depth elsewhere. A redirect is the best option, if you disagree I will just afd it. Viridae Talk 02:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We are wasting time discussing this. AFD it now. It has been given a chance for over a year. What is the point. :) - Mr.Gurü ( talk/contribs ) 02:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure. Do an AfD. -- Levine2112 discuss 04:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * According to Levine, we should do an AFD. Any thoughts. :) - Mr.Gurü ( talk/contribs ) 18:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think we should first entertain the possibility of merging this article. I also think that this will give other editors a change to add sources to this article and perhaps salvage it. -- Levine2112 <sup style="color:#774400; font-size:small; padding:1px; border:1px #996600 dotted; background-color:#FFFF99;">discuss 21:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Whats to merge? Chiropractic already covers the topic in more depth? Viridae Talk 23:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. Well, do you feel that it is worth maintaining an article which can describe the practitioner aspect of this profession? For instance, a source such as the US Bureau of Labor Statistics provides a wealth of information about the job. -- <b style="color:#996600; font-family:times new roman,times,serif;">Levine2112</b> <sup style="color:#774400; font-size:small; padding:1px; border:1px #996600 dotted; background-color:#FFFF99;">discuss 23:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see the point really. Incidentally They are called Chiropractors elsewhere. Viridae Talk 00:15, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Meaning: you don't see the point in keeping two distinct articles? That's fine. I'm not sure that we need them separate either. I am just wondering if there is something about the profession that this article may be able to go in depth with that the general Chiropractic article cannot due to space constraints. -- <b style="color:#996600; font-family:times new roman,times,serif;">Levine2112</b> <sup style="color:#774400; font-size:small; padding:1px; border:1px #996600 dotted; background-color:#FFFF99;">discuss 00:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We are wasting time here. Take it to the AFD and let the community decide if an original research so-called article belongs on Wikipedia. :) - <b style="color:#669966;">Mr.Gurü</b> ( talk/contribs ) 00:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Go for it, QuackGuru. You're our resident expert on AfDs after all. -- <b style="color:#996600; font-family:times new roman,times,serif;">Levine2112</b> <sup style="color:#774400; font-size:small; padding:1px; border:1px #996600 dotted; background-color:#FFFF99;">discuss 00:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Criticism
If the article survives deletion it should be balanced by having a criticism section. QuackGuru 00:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm going to add a nice criticism section. I'll get to work on this soon enough. AFD or not, it should be balanced. At the moment, it is POV. QuackGuru 00:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Go for it. Just make sure that it is criticism of Doctors of Chiropractic and not just Chiropractic in general. If we are going to make an attempt to save this article, we need to differentiate it from Chiropractic - or else it will get merged. Further, please note that Stephen Barrett's opinions on chiropractic have been completely discredited dating at least as far back as 1979 when the government of New Zealand proclaimed that Barrett is too biased to be objective on this matter. -- <b style="color:#996600; font-family:times new roman,times,serif;">Levine2112</b> <sup style="color:#774400; font-size:small; padding:1px; border:1px #996600 dotted; background-color:#FFFF99;">discuss 00:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by Board Certified? Are you looking for a board of medical examiners or Chiropractic examiners? Chiropractors take 4 national boards (Parts I-IV) and in several states, sitting for a Chiropractic PT board is required to practice. These boards are given by the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners (NBCE). You cannot practice in the US without having taken at least 3 of these boards (Parts I-III are required by all states). Only a handful of states do not require Part IV.

unrelated information
A D.C. is considered a "primary health care" provider in the United States and Canada.[3][4]

Chiropractic is a health profession concerned with the diagnosis, treatment and prevention of mechanical disorders of the musculoskeletal system and the effect of these disorders on the function of the nervous system and on general health. There is an emphasis on manual treatments including spinal manipulation or adjustment. By restoring normal function to the musculoskeletal system chiropractors can play a major part in relieving disorders, and any accompanying pain or discomfort, arising from accidents, stress, lack of exercise, poor posture, illness and everyday wear and tear. Chiropractors take a holistic approach to health and wellbeing: this means that they consider its physical, psychological and social aspects.[2]

This information is in the article. What does it have to do with a degree? QuackGuru talk  17:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

merge with chiropractic
removed the tag because Chiropractic is too long already and has had to be shortened several times already. Some information from that article may fit better here? <b style="color:#999900;">Dēmatt</b> (chat)  01:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge or Redirect
If there is anything worth merging it can go into the Chiro education article. As it stands, this is clearly a redundant article. Any thoughts. QuackGuru talk  18:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This paragraph
"Also known as a "chiropractor" or "chiropractic physician", a DC or DCM is a health professional who seeks to diagnose, treat, correct, and prevent neurological, skeletal, or soft tissue dysfunction by employing manual therapies; the most frequent being spinal and other articular adjustments and manipulations.[2]" Is actually not supported by it's reference, or rather, it's a rewording to backup the degree, when it isn't actually anything to do with acedamia, but rather a profession. Obviously the two aren't the same, and in fact, the profession of "DC" and the "Background of Chiropratic" are different. The article is starting to drift back to what started the AfD, which is, it has little to do with a degree and lots to do with a title used by practioners.  Shot info  22:42, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Good point, since the title "doctor" was self-appointed and given by DD Palmer, the grade school teacher and fishmonger. The profession has continued to call their graduates "doctor" ever since, in spite of the fact that there is little real comparison to a real medical education. -- <b style="color:#004000;">Fyslee</b>/<b style="color:#990099; font-size:x-small;">talk</b> 20:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep in mind that you are qualifying that based on US standards. Medical doctors would not even be called a doctor in parts of Europe and UK.  I believe there is an article that compares the education of each of the professions, but then each are different in their own way depending on their purpose.  It would be like trying to compare a Ph.D. (Doctor of Philosophy) to a Doctor of Medicine.  For that matter, you could have Ph.D. from two different disciplines whose education is totally different.  It depends on the skills required for the particular field. I understand PTs are even developing a program for Doctor of PT in the US.  Probably won't be recognized that way in Europe though.   <b style="color:#999900;">Dēmatt</b>  (chat)  00:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally I don't dispute the use of the word "Doctor" per se, but what I'm pointing out is the OR that was applied to twist or reword the reference to support the claim. Hence it probably should be reworded to something more suitable, or a better supporting source.  As it stands at the moment, it is weaselly.   Shot info  00:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Let me pull the paragraph in question here. I also notice that the reference was further into the paragraph as well:


 * Chiropractic is a health profession concerned with the diagnosis, treatment and prevention of mechanical disorders of the musculoskeletal system and the effect of these disorders on the function of the nervous system and on general health. There is an emphasis on manual treatments including spinal manipulation or adjustment. By restoring normal function to the musculoskeletal system chiropractors can play a major part in relieving disorders, and any accompanying pain or discomfort, arising from accidents, stress, lack of exercise, poor posture, illness and everyday wear and tear. Chiropractors take a holistic approach to health and wellbeing: this means that they consider its physical, psychological and social aspects.


 * Also known as a "chiropractor" or "chiropractic physician", a DC or DCM is a health professional who seeks to diagnose, treat, correct, and prevent neurological, skeletal, or soft tissue dysfunction by employing manual therapies; the most frequent being spinal and other articular adjustments and manipulations.

This is the first two paragraphs of the referenced material:


 * Chiropractors, also known as doctors of chiropractic or chiropractic physicians, diagnose and treat patients whose health problems are associated with the body’s muscular, nervous, and skeletal systems, especially the spine. Chiropractors believe that interference with these systems impairs the body’s normal functions and lowers its resistance to disease. They also hold that spinal or vertebral dysfunction alters many important body functions by affecting the nervous system and that skeletal imbalance through joint or articular dysfunction, especially in the spine, can cause pain.


 * The chiropractic approach to health care is holistic, stressing the patient’s overall health and wellness.

I don't know, Shot, it is pretty well paraphrased, I think. If we mess with it much more and we would have to put it in quotes. -- <b style="color:#999900;">Dēmatt</b> (chat)  12:51, 19 July 2007 (UTC)