Talk:Chishti Order

Untitled
I am deleting the following Para: "At its founding, the Chishti Order was known for its renunciation of worldly power, but this would change later when Chishti saints would ally with emperors, most notably the Mughal emperor Akbar"

Akber had deviated from Islam and introduced his own religion Deen-e-Ilahi which was a mixture of Hinduism and Islam. It was rejected by all Muslims and Hindus Alike. None of the Chisti Order notables ever supported Akbar. Hassanfarooqi 15:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Correction of Image Needed
The image with following caption needs correction (Die with the genealogy of the Chishti Order from Muhammad and Ali to Moinuddin Chishti, Louvre Museum).This image has been horizontally flipped (like you are viewing it in a mirror) and therefore the text and names in it are unreadable. Please flip it back to its correct form and re-upload.

Suggestion
This article would be a lot more helpful for a wide range of readers if someone explained what all these chains are. FreplySpang 12:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have added links so people not knowing what Sufism, Sufi Orders, Silsilah, Tariqah, etc may understand them. To summarize it, 1400 years ago there were no formal school and people went to certain teachers for certain knowledge that they called Shaikh (Arabic for Old Man) or Pir (Persian for Old Man).  When a certain student became a master, he was given Khilafah (Caliphate) and made Khalifa (Caliph).  This Caliph would then be a Shaikh in his own capacity, have his own students, and his own Caliphs.  This Chain of teachers is known as Silsilah (Arabic for Chain).  These chains are for all knowledges including, but not limited to, Sufism.  There are silsilah for the knowledge of Quran, Hadeeth, Fiqa, History etc.  Any knowledge that is not passed thru a chain of authentic teachers is deemed unaunthentic.  Therefore Muslims, especially Sufis are very fussy over the completion of chain.  For this reason I have included a bio for all links in the chain although you do not see him notable. Hassanfarooqi 20:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * How about creating an article about the different chains withinn the chishti order. One can remove the different chains from here and paste them there. The common chain can remain here. Aswell should Prophet Mohammed and Maula Ali ibn Abu Talib be added to the common chain.Imranal 19:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Help in article Mantle of Khilafat
I really could need help creating the article about mantle of khilafat. imranal (by the way how do you get the time function beside your user name)


 * Put four tidle marks "Hassanfarooqi 13:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)" after your comments, and it will be converted into a date-time stamp. Please start the article and I will put it on my watch list and add material time to time.  Others normally follow once the article starts and is interesting.  Hassanfarooqi 13:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Does this belong here
"Followers of Sikh Saint Kabir think he was also part of the Chishti order." I have never heard this name before. Can any one eloborate? Imranal 21:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The founder of Sikh religion Guru Nanak had been the student of Baba Fareed. For this reason you can see lots of quotations from Baba Fareed in his works.  As a matter of fact in the teachings of the first five Gurus, who focused more on spiritualism then the next five who focused on militarism, the concepts of Chisti order are quite visible.
 * Bhagat Kabir Das was an early day Sikh Saint and for this reason he revered Prophet Muhammed and Chisti Saints. For this reason his followers regard him a Chishti, although he is a Sikh by faith.
 * Sai Baba of Shirdi is another example who is a Hindu but his followers consider him a Sufi.
 * Kabbalah, a Jewish methodology came into being when during the 12th century when Jews, uprooted from Christian areas during the crusades, sought refuge in Muslim Spain and came in contact with Sufis like Ibn Rushd (although Kabbalah is claimed to be since forever by some other name. See Zohar that emerged in 13the century Spain.
 * In a nutshell, Sufi teachings has charmed non-muslims since Sufies were secular in their approach as they reached out for non-Muslims
 * Hassanfarooqi 00:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Secular is not a word which i usually combine with sufism, what do you mean by that? Imranal 14:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand the word "secular" has become synonymous to "atheism" but that is not the case. Secularism means not attaching the label of one's religion in some action.  When Sufis first arrive at a non Muslim society, they market Islamic ideology without attaching the label of Islam to it.  They mainly focused on God's unity and the love for him and his prophet Muhammed.  This was something prophet Muhammed did himself in Mecca when he invited people saying that he said nothing new and everything was already in the older books.  The word Islam was attached much later.  Hassanfarooqi 22:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Verification needed
This is from the Sabiriyya - Quddusia - Emdadia Lineage : { 20. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina wa Sayyid al-Arifin 'Ala uddin Ali Ahmad as-Sabir (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 21. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Shams uddin at-Turki al-Panipati (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 22. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Jalaluddin Kabir al-Awliya al-Panipati (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 23. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Ahmed Abdul Haq Radaulawi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 24. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Ahmed 'Arif ar-Radaulawi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 25. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Muhammad 'Arif ar-Radaulawi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 26. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Qutb al-'Alam al-Shaikh Abdul Quddus al-Gangohi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 27. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Jalaluddin Thanesari (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 28. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Nizam uddin al-Balkhi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 29. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Abi Sa 'id al-Gangohi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 30. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Muhibbullah Ilahabadi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 31. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Shah Muhammadi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 32. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina al-Shaikh Muhammad al-Makki (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 33. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Adh uddin al-Amruhi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 34. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Abdul Hadi al-Amruhi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 35. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Abdul Bari al-Amruhi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 36. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Shah Abdur Rahim al-Shahid (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 37. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Sayyidina Nur Muhammad Jhinjhanawi (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) 38. Shaikh al-Mashaikh Maulana al-Haj al-Hafiz al-Shaikh Imdadullah Muhajir Makki (Qaddas allahu sirahul 'aziz) } -- Imranal 17:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Since verification was not given for all chains except the common chain, I have subsequently deleted them. If you wish to add them again, please cite source or atleast provide verification with iw-links. However it has been sugested that for the rest of the chains, another article be constructed for this purpose. There is no need to have every possible chain after the common chain. If every chain had to be represented, this article would have prelonged beyond resonable length. This would aswell not seem encyclopedic. -- Imranal 17:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Same person?
Is 13.Khawaja Nasihuddin Abu Mohammad the same person as 12.Abu Muhammad Bin Abi Ahmad. Please see the common chain. I have read that 12.Abu Muhammad Bin Abi Ahmad were maternal uncle of 14.Sayyid Abu Yusuf Bin Sam’aan Al-Husaini and 14.Sayyid Abu Yusuf Bin Sam’aan Al-Husaini succeded 12.Abu Muhammad Bin Abi Ahmad. Can anyone verify this? Imranal 19:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I have corrected the two bios that were causing confusion. These two bio-stubs were not done by me. I have now expanded them and hope it makes more sense to you. I had only posted the "Common Chishtiyya Chain in South Asia" only as I found them in historical books like "Mashaikh-e-Chisht". I do not know how the other people came up with other branches. They clash with recorded history. However I am not going to get into the argument. My immediate target was to complete the bios of the common chain and alhamdulillah I have done it. I shall next be expanding them slowly. Then I shall cover the branches of Chishtiyya Order and then go to other order. Finally my goal is to cover all Sufi concepts such as Latif-Sitta, Dhikrs, Shaghals, Manazil's etc. I hope some day I will do comparitive study of Sufi concepts with Jewish Kaballah, Christian Gnosis, and pagan pantheism to show how they are different Hassanfarooqi 22:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your contribution :) Imranal 23:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The nine principles
The Nine Principles

The Chishti Order is also known for the following principles:

* Obedience to shaykh or pir * Renunciation of the material world * Distance from worldly powers * Sama (or musical assemblies) * Prayers and fasting * Service to humanity * Respect for other devotional traditions * Dependence on voluntary offerings * Disapproval of miraculous feats I altered the part relating extremme prayers and fasting to just prayer and fasting. I did this because i felt it was more representative to what is important to chishti's, i.e prayers and fasting. It is not important to be extremme regarding prayers and fasting, but instead focus on the fact that prayers and fasing is done to "cure" one self of the nafs, and to acheive Gods grace. Can any one counter this?

There is something about the second last point :  Dependence on voluntary offerings. Can't someone who belongs to the Chishti order have a job? Imranal 23:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC) Should the principle : Dependence on voluntary offerings, be removed and hence the title nine principles should be changed to 8 principles.(yes, yes, i know . Nine is a magic number :) ) Imranal 17:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Transliterations of names of devotional practices
Someone changed the previous names to names that look to be in a different dialect or transliteration scheme. I do not speak or read Hindustani/Hindi/Urdu, or any other South Asian dialects, so I am unsure as to the BEST way to present the names. Since the Chisti order is spread across many different language/dialect areas, it would seem fair to make a table, with the English translation in one column, and then the names of the practices as pronounced, or written, in various dialects and scripts and transliterations. There's no one best way. I reverted just to keep things on an even keel while we decide how to set up the table. I can't start a table myself, because I don't know how to label the two sets of terms given. Zora (talk) 01:11, 4 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Some anon changed names of two of the devotional practices and left the other two alone. I reverted. However, it seems that the only way out of this is to give the practices ENGLISH names and add a table of terms in various languages/dialects if desired. I will look on the web to see if there's an English-language Chisti website that will supply names. Zora (talk) 17:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Major overhaul
I shouldn't have spent four hours doing this but ... when I started working on the list of devotional practices, I noticed many OTHER problems in the article. It was disorganized, repetitive, cobbled together by cut and paste from other sources, and tended to exalt the Chishti and sneer at other Sufi orders. It lacked context in many areas.

I also edited to remove some India-centric bias in the article. Moinuddin studied in Central Asia, taught in Lahore in the Punjab, and only later moved to Ajmer in Rajasthan. He can really be said to belong to South Asia, not to the state of India (which existed only after the Partition). Describing him as an Indian shaykh ignores most of his life. Nor would it be fair to call him Pakistani :) He existed before all that.

I'm not a Muslima, or a Chishti, but I tried to be fair. I waffled on several points. I believe that some people would say that Sufi teachings were in addition to the Qur'an, but there's also a whole Muslim tradition that finds Sufi teachings hidden IN the Qur'an. So I put both views in the article.

I probably missed some errors. Please proofread.

Also, it would be good to have a list of current Chishti darghahs and organizations, and more history of the order outside South Asia. Perhaps even a separate article on Chishti outside Central and South Asia. Oh, and I just realized -- there's nothing there about Chishti in Afghanistan. What about them?

The problem with the transliterations is still there. It seems that someone cut and pasted from the Encyclopedia Iranica, which has an odd transliteration scheme. I think we need better transliterations -- probably into Hindi/Urdu and perhaps Dari and Pashto. Punjabi too? Aargh, what a problem! Zora (talk) 22:15, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Editor convinced that only one Chisti lineage is correct, adding names to silsila
South Asian Chisti convinced that HIS lineage is the correct one; repeatedly adding names to silsila with no references or citations given. As noted in 2006, the silsila (lineage) given in the article is the list that ALL Chistis would accept. After that, lineages spread out endlessly. I have deleted the unreferenced names twice, and the poster has added them again -- three times. I left a message on the talk page for sayed.mohammad.faizen and got this message on my talk page:

U Are Writen A Wrong Chishti Order 1St Read The History Of Moinuddin Chishtis And Than Watch Which The Main Silsila The Silsila Is Coming Ajmer To Ahmedabad Gujarat U Whant To See The Real Chishti Silsila So Come And Watch I Have All Prof.No Body Object For This Chishti Order But Who Are U Are Objecting.U Have Ur Silsila Order So Watch Me Ur Silsila Order.U Dnt Have Write To Delete This Names I Have Prof. I'll Show U All Real Order Of Chishti's.U Dnt No Abt Nizamuddin Chishti Delhivi, Nasiruddin Chirag Delhivi, Kamaluddin Chishti Delhivi, Go And Watch That dargah's And Find There The Real History Of Our.We Have Write But U Dnt And Plzzz Dnt Delete Again This Order Again Other Vice I Have Object U And Ur Site U Are Making A Fake Chishti Order I Have All Prof Of Chishti Order. I M Give U All WebSite Name Where U Find the Which I Have Rote In Ur Order And Then U'll Be live Me. So Plzz Brother Go N Watch Which Is The Write Chishtti Order Ok

In other words, he has no proof other than that he is right and I am wrong. His English language skills seem to be rudimentary; I don't think he understands what an academic would accept as a neutral, referenced lineage list. I'm certainly willing to accept extra names if he can point to a respected academic source.

I believe that this poster is the same person who has added the same list from two anon IPs.

I'm putting this message up on the talk page to make sure that I've checked all the boxes before I go to dispute resolution. Zora (talk) 04:45, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, I've reverted again; let's see what happens. Perhaps the poster could start a separate article re the silsila recognized by his group, without making any claims that this lineage has to be recognized by ALL Chistis. He could describe his group, its history, silsila, waqfs, dargahs, festivals, etc. This would be adding to the knowledge in Wikipedia rather than simply trying to capture the main article for sectarian bragging rights. Zora (talk) 05:16, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Adding websites for various groups, sites
Someone added three external links. I deleted one, which seemed to be only dawa, with no information. I kept the two others, but I'm not sure about them at all. They give some information, but they are also dawa sites. I wish that there were a directory of all Chisti-related sites; we could just link to that and be done. I still need to edit the links and add a little more info. Time short today, have a paper to edit. Zora (talk) 19:56, 4 April 2013 (UTC)]

Moulana Abdul Ghafoor Hazarvi
A Pakistani nationalist has written an article re Moulana Abdul Ghafoor Hazarvi that has many problems. The article is prejudiced against Hindus and the Congress Party and lavishly praises this Muslim leader for helping found Pakistan, which is presented as an undeniably good thing. All I can see, as an outsider, is many pointless, heartbreaking deaths, Hindu and Muslim alike. I am out of practice editing and would have to spend some time working on the Moulana Abdul Ghafoor Hazarvi article to bring it to the attention of the rest of the WP community or to edit it towards greater objectivity. In the meantime, I have deleted the link to this article on the Chisti page. I do not believe that this teacher would be accepted as a sterling representative of the Chisti Order by all Chistis. Certainly not by Indian Chistis. Zora (talk) 20:30, 8 August 2013 (UTC)