Talk:Chocolat (group)

Contested deletion
Chocolat is a 5 member bi-racial girl group who debuted in Korea on August 18, 2011 at MNET's MCountdown.

Edit-warring for positions not in citation.
I was reverted without explanation and positions were added which were not in the citation. Google translate mentions the following: Nowhere it is mentioned that Min, the leader is also the Lead vocalist. Or that Tia Hwang is the "Main Dancer" or that Melanie is "Main Vocalist, Lead Dancer". Please do not readd this information again until the translation is properly verified. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  12:39, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose merging the following articles into this one, Chocolat (band) All of the song and EP articles contain very little information which isn't already discussed in the group's article, and the track listings can simply be added to the discography. The group hasn't released much and it doesn't appear they're doing to have a slew of releases in the future, so overcrowding shouldn't be an issue. I think this would make for a more cohesive presentation of the group and their releases. Shinyang-i (talk) 05:01, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * One More Day (Chocolat song)
 * Syndrome (song)
 * I Like It (EP)
 * Black Tinkerbell
 * I just question the necessity to merge them together and how to merge them together. I know that you could add the track listings to the tables, but what is the need to merge the articles into this one? How would it look like? The articles follow the same pattern most, if not all, other music related albums, CDs, singles and EPs releases have. All other articles include that much information at least, if not completely. This helps not only add credit to the composers, writers and arrangers, but also adds information on song backgrounds and release history regarding each song that I don't honestly see being fit well into this article, if it were to be merged. Chocolat ≈ Dubulge (Chat Me Up) 19:56, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The overall purpose is to get rid of most song articles. It's stated multiple places(see WP:SONGS for instance) that most songs (even hit songs) shouldn't have articles and they should be merged into larger articles such as relevant album or artist articles.  Presently, most album, EP, and song kpop articles aren't very good - they're bare bones with little substantial information, largely repetitive of other articles, and often full of excessive discussion of teasers and such to make them longer.  And Wikipedia acknowledges that it's very difficult to make a good song article - there is rarely extensive discussion of songs in the media with the kind of info that belongs in an article.  So in an effort to improve these articles, it makes sense to follow the Wikipedia guideline of combining them under the umbrella of an album.  Each promotional single (its music video, its release, its performance) can get discussed individually within the article, for a more cohesive treatment of the entire body of work.  I think if a merge were to begin and the resulting article were clunky or too long or arranged weirdly, we'd just cancel the merge - whatever is best to present the material.  Remember, changes can always be undone if they work out as intended.  After the initial merge is done, it would be a collaborative effort between all editors to fine-tune the article to make it the best possible.  This is not an effort to delete material (I don't really see any info disappearing), just a push to combine information in line with Wikipedia guidelines and make the resulting articles better.  Does any of this make sense?  I don't know if I've explained well. ^_^ Shinyang-i (talk) 00:09, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Although it makes sense in the bare bones and the idea, I just don't really see how this would work and I'd have to see it being done into the article to understand it. I just don't get how this would all fit together, how to add the information and where to put it. I mean an EP is an album and I'd understand the reason to take away one of the singles, but other ones are like separate releases. I assume you know this, but in K-pop, albums and CDs and singles don't work the same as in Japan or the US. In the US, you release a single to promote an album, every single is part of an album, but in Korea a "single" is a name given to a specific separate release in itself. Like their first album is just a single album, then they move on to an EP and then a full album, instead of releasing singles in order to put them in one album. For that reason, I thought they all deserved their own separate articles. Regardless, though, I wouldn't completely oppose to the idea, I would just like to see it happening and see what it'd look like, since I have no idea where to fit all the information into this article. Chocolat ≈ Dubulge (Chat Me Up) 03:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah I appreciate the feedback, it's very useful. I've got an idea.  How about I try it out in my sandbox, and you can take a look and see if it "works"?  It won't be a finished product, as there are specific steps that have to be gone through when doing a merge, but you could get an idea.  You may be right, it may be a total mess.  Does that sound cool?  I'll ping you when I'm done, probably sometime over the next few days. Shinyang-i (talk) 23:37, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds great to me! If it works out fine, then I'd be more than happy with the edit and will totally support it. ^ ^ Chocolat ≈ Dubulge (Chat Me Up) 09:15, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll give it a go. The problem is, these songs don't pass Wikipedia's notability guidelines and can't have their own articles, so they have to be either merged somewhere or deleted.  Few songs pass notability requirements, which can make things tricky in kpop where, as you said, songs are often stand-alone releases not associated with a larger work.  But the Chocolat article isn't very long so working the songs into it shouldn't be too hard.  Most artists with good articles have them divided up into career phases by associated work, so it should work pretty naturally.  Shinyang-i (talk) 22:15, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. We are moving away from the idea of every K-pop song having an article, because most of the time there simply isn't enough real information. The information about song structure appears to be original research, so I would take that out. --Random86 (talk) 22:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * , I've finished a test run of a merge, at User:Shinyang-i/sandbox3. All the information about song structure had to be removed as it was unsourced original research.  Also, information about lyrical meaning has to come straight from the composer or performer, so it also had to be removed.  And of course, most of the teaser information was removed, as it's just not encyclopedic.  Kpop articles tend to focus overly on promotional details, which isn't really a Wikipedia thing unless there's something notable about it..  Anyway, I bolded the parts I added in (roughly).  More would probably be trimmed down, as this was just a rough merge.  Overall, most of the information in the song and even EP articles was already present in the group's main article, with just a few details about composition and chart performance added (this is the case with most song articles).  Overall (sorry to say), Chocolat hasn't been very successful, so until they really start getting major hits with non-fanblog media attention, it's unlikely much of their material will be notable enough for individual Wikipedia articles.  I suggest just on making sure their main article is well-written and well-updated. :) Let me know what you think and then I can proceed with the real merge.  Afterwards, of course you're welcome to edit all you want. :) 23:01, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, I love the edit so far. The original research thing, although I know it's not part of the wikipedia, I had no way of sourcing it because I was the one who figured out the ranges of the songs and the keys, which isn't you know, wrong but I have no way of sourcing it just yet. I think the part where there's a scheduled movie thing, that can be removed. I really wish the musical side of it all didn't have to be removed, but I understand haha I wish the ChoColat article was actually mine/started by me >_< The ChoColat pages were the only ones I've ever created on wikipedia, so I was proud of them. Anyway, I actually do think this looks really good and you're welcome to go on with the merge, in my opinion. Oh wait, the part about what the song is about, at least Black Tinkerbell, that was what the composers/members of ChoColat had explained actually. The source is included in the 3 sources in the paragraph. Chocolat ≈ Dubulge (Chat Me Up) 03:05, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll be sure to look for that reference again. The nice thing is, if something gets deleted by accident it can always be retrieved pretty easily!  Thanks for your feedback!  It's really appreciated! Shinyang-i (talk) 05:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Hey,, I finished the merges finally. I really appreciate your input on the process.  Please look things over, see if there's anything I screwed up or missed, make any edits you see necessary, etc.  If I chopped out something vital by accident, it can be retrieved from the page histories - let me know if you don't know how to do that.  One thing that I'm murky on is, were all of the "single album" releases digital only?  Because it was confusing to me to figure out what was charting, the song or the "single album". When someone digitally buys "Black Tinkerbell single album", for instance, what do they get - Black Tinkerbell only or BT and its B-side?  I don't know if there's a way to clarify that, because I can't remember hearing of a digital-only release with a B-side.  Anyway, I look forward to seeing you improve upon my work and your continued contributions to this article and others.  I hope things work out for Chocolat in the future. :) Shinyang-i (talk) 04:19, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I just wanted to clarify what I said about the song vs the single album. I'm finding a lot of kpop "song" articles that are not actually about songs but about singles with multiple tracks.  When editing or merging or even reading these articles, it's hard to figure out "what is the actual topic of this article?" because the title says song but the article lists multiple tracks.  In the case of these Chocolat merges, when looking at charting positions, I couldn't be sure if the name I saw on the chart was for that one song (one track of the digital single purchased) or if it was for the entire digital single with all its tracks.  Because all the releases were digital, it confuses me.  i noticed there had been three charting tables on the Chocolat article: one for the EP, one for the "single albums", and one for the songs.  But the single album and song charts were identical, so I deleted one of them...but maybe not the right one.  It needs to be determined what was actually tracked by the charting number for, say, "I Like It" - was it for a sale of the individual song or of the entire "single album" purchased as a unit of 4 (or whatever) songs?  So if you understand it better than me, I recommend clarifying the prose and putting the right chart(s) on there. And feel free to explain it to me, coz I want to learn.  =D Shinyang-i (talk) 01:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Single albums are singles with B-side tracks. If the single album was released physically, it will chart on the album chart, and each song can chart individually on the digital chart. Digital single albums cannot chart on the album chart, because it only tracks physical releases. It is my understanding that digital albums cannot be bought together in Korea; each track is purchased separately. Random86 (talk) 01:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, that last sentence is what I needed to know., if Random86 is correct, then I deleted the correct table and the chart results were for the individual songs, not the "digital singles" as a whole.  Language in the article might need some clarification about that. :) Shinyang-i (talk) 01:40, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi sorry I didn't see these haha Yes actually I really liked what you did, it was pretty complete. The single album thing is basically what the other user said, in Korea they release the full single album online, with B-sides, but you get the songs individually and so the charting is for the individual song and not for the single album as a whole. It's a Korean thing, basically a "single album" isn't like a single to promote a future full album release, instead, it's a release on its own and probably isn't going to be released as part of a full album. (Unless they're lazy). Chocolat ≈ Dubulge (Chat Me Up) 20:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

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