Talk:Choi Soo-young/Archive 1

Edit War (how I see it)
From what I can tell, this is what's been happening:
 * 1) User:EunSoo is adding in unsourced information and unnecessary information (for example, the caption for an image that does not exist).  When notifed of that fact by User:Dr. Crisp, the user simply reverted and told DrCrisp to find the source.  On Wikipedia, it is the responsibility of the user who adds in the unsourced information to find the source. (see this revert)
 * 2) Additionally, EunSoo has also been adding a "See Also" section that, while not necessarily useless or improper, is redundant because Girls' Generation is already linked in the article at least once, if not more so.  Interestingly, even though EunSoo was the user who moved the various solo pages around (see Jessica Jung, for example), the user is reinstating the original wikilinks for those pages.  Dr. Crisp has been undoing these edits for those reasons (see this edit).
 * 3) The one edit that I think EunSoo is correct with is listing the singer's name in English in the infobox, with the Korean name in brackets.  Dr. Crisp was reverting this as well.

So although it's clear an edit war has taken place, I can't say that Dr. Crisp was unjustified in his/her edits, for the most part. EunSoo's edits cannot be reasonably justified, as they add in unsourced and/or redundant and/or unnecessary information (by the latter, I mean the caption).

But then -- full disclosure -- it's not like I'm an impartial Wikipedia editor, as I have butted heads with EunSoo in the past...repeatedly. SKS (talk) 18:46, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I express my regret. It's miserable.--59.6.81.173 (talk) 23:57, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

To 1.: In EunSoo's defence I have to say that he/she wasn't the original creator of this image capture. Bot CommonsDelinker did just delete the image link but not the capture. When I was reverting EunSoo's edit I did also remove the image capture, and so, always when he/she was undoing my edits it came back... In the end, EunSoo realised this, too.

To 3.: Really...? I have to admit I don't know where to find guidelines regarding this and I didn't found anything on the documentation page of Template:Infobox musical artist, so I orientate myself on other articles like BoA or Ayumi Hamasaki... but, okay. I'm sorry. --Dr. Crisp (talk) 06:49, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That's just my understanding. I could be wrong, though.  I don't know much regarding infoboxes and their proper formatting. :P SKS (talk) 16:15, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Possible weblinks ?
--Dr. Crisp (talk) 08:16, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * - actually, it's not really informative
 * Choi Soo-young at the Korean Movie & Drama Datebase

Edit request from MiMaeLi, 23 June 2010
MiMaeLi (talk) 05:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from MiMaeLi, 23 June 2010
Girls' generation sooyoung.jpg

MiMaeLi (talk) 05:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Declined. Please first deal with the copyright/licensing of the image, and then feel free to request it again. NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 06:44, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Notability of section "Car crash" disputable
I don't think the fact that she's involved in a car crash is a very notable fact. I suggest it is removed from the article until the event proves to have a significant impact on anything whatsoever. --94.211.11.198 (talk) 15:18, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm wondering why it's listed as a controversy?

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved to Sooyoung, which was already a redirect here, so this topic was already the primary topic for the title "Sooyoung". Avoids the problem with parenthetical disambiguation from WP:PRECISION, and the hatnote serves to disambiguate the hyphenated version. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:58, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Choi Soo-young → Sooyoung (entertainer) – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:14, 20 March 2012 (UTC) Like my request for Seohyun, my rationale is as follows:
 * 1) The singer has the stage name of Sooyoung.
 * 2) The singer is predominantly known under Sooyoung.
 * 3) WP:STAGENAME.

This one may be a bit more controversial because there are people who prefer to include surnames for disambiguation purposes instead of disambiguators, but I believe WP:STAGENAME overrides those considerations. SKS (talk) 16:32, 12 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Her KBS profile gives her as "Choi Soo-young", as does Rovi's allmovie. Her fansite also uses her full name. It is common for entertainers to be referred to by given name only, but this is normally understood as a short form or nickname. "Don't use a first name (even if unambiguous) for an article title if the last name is known and fairly often used," according to WP:NCP. The guideline gives Oprah Winfrey as a example. Kauffner (talk) 17:37, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: The official website lists her as "Sooyoung", as again, they are professionally known by their first/main names. IMDB lists her name as "Sooyoung". News sources (,, , , Reuters (in the picture), and ) credit her as Sooyoung.  When looking up "Choi Sooyoung" and "Girls' Generation", you get one result (and one archived result).  "Sooyoung" and "SNSD" isn't much better (5 archived results, two of them forums). SKS (talk) 18:06, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * There are other people at Soo-young who are are entertainers as well. WP:PRECISION recommends parenthetical disambiguation only, "if natural disambiguation is not possible". No one else is putting "(entertainer)" after her name, but many sites give her a family name. Kauffner (talk) 19:03, 12 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Relisting comment. I'd like to add that "Soo-young" is a really common name in Korea, and in no sense does this individual own the undifferentiated Sooyoung name. In the Korean press, she is typically referred to as "Girls' Generation Sooyoung". Even pop music sources do this. In other words, there are so many Korean celebs named "Sooyoung" that it is not enough to describe her as simply a "singer," "dancer" or "entertainer". Kauffner (talk) 07:39, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support- Her ko article disambiguates (born 1990); the articles are swimming, a subway station, Suyeong-gu, her, Busan Subway Line 3, swimming pool, a swimming competition, swimsuit, and a redirect to Gimhae International Airport; she is so far the only bio and her mononym should therefore be the primary meaning (swimming is the only other article without additional syllables). Dru of Id (talk) 08:06, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This RM is not proposing the subject for primary topic, so whether there are other notable Sooyoungs or not is beside the point. But of course there are. In fact, there is a list of them at Soo-young. Choo So Young and Soyoung Yoon are notable entertainers as well, although we don't have articles about them. It is a common practice to refer to entertainers by given name only, so all these people can be considered as simply "Sooyoung". What makes this subject's name a mononym and the others not? The rule is that the family name goes in the title as long as it is "fairly often used", according to WP:NCP. Kauffner (talk) 09:08, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I have shown that the surname for Sooyoung is not used often &mdash; in fact, it's extremely rare &mdash; in reliable sources, and it appears that other users agree. Moreover, articles such as Adele (singer) follow this convention.  Why should this article be the exception?  Korean Wikipedia avoids using her surname as well.  (I realise that KO Wiki has different disambiguation methods, but the fact that they're not using her surname remains.)  As an aside, she is probably the most "famous" Sooyoung currently, and Soo-young is different than So-young.  Also, there is no need to pre-disambiguate: if there are no articles for other Sooyoungs on English Wikipedia, there's no need to "avoid" them. SKS (talk) 05:10, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought this RM was about whether "(entertainer)" or "Choi" is a better disambiguator. Yet this primary topic issue keeps coming up. "Entertainer" is a poor disambiguator if it does not distinguish her from other Sooyoungs. But that's a separate question from whether she is primary topic for the term "Sooyoung". If we followed the fanzine sites on Google News that you refer to as "reliable sources", we'd give this title as "SNSD's Sooyoung". For every mononym title on Wiki, there are thousands of titles in the conventional given-name-plus-family-name format, including Ozzy Osbourne and Oprah Winfrey. No music is released under the name "Sooyoung", or at least nothing turns up on Amazon or CD Universe. Kauffner (talk) 09:47, 22 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. The subject is credited as "Choi Soo-young" for her various movie roles, as you can see at HanCinema, allmovie, Rotten Tomatos, MySoju, and KMDb. In Korean, it's the same, as you can see here and here. I assume the "Girl's Generation Sooyoung" moniker is a promotional gimmick for the band. She can and does use a normal name when she appears independently of SM. Kauffner (talk) 02:14, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Post-move discussion
The lemma "Sooyoung" was not proposed by any participant during the RM, nor did anyone make the argument that the closer does. "Soo-young" and "Sooyoung" are the same Korean name, so I am not sure what to make of the disambiguation-by-hyphen idea. As far as WP:STAGENAME goes, the subject has Korean film and TV credits as "Choi Soo-young". Her first gig was the obscure Japanese movie Route $\theta$, where she is also credited as "Choi Soo-young" (or チェ・スヨン in Japanese). She has no credits under any other name, either for acting or for music. The subject's common name would be something like "SNSD's Sooyoung" or "Girls Generation Sooyoung". That sort of trademarky stuff is clearly inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Fortunately, no one has suggested going down the WP:COMMONNAME road. The obvious solution is WP:NCP, which suggests using a full name even when that is not the most common form. Kauffner (talk) 23:21, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Route 𝜃 (pronounced Route "oh") was her group with Marina Takahashi, they were a duet, not a film. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 00:01, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't disambiguate-by-hyphen. The title Sooyoung led directly to this article already (i.e., it was already so disambiguated). Since it was the primary topic for that title, no disambiguation (natural via full name or artificial via parenthetical phrase) was necessary. -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

My understanding of WP:NCP is that even if the person is credited by mononym, as say Beyoncé Knowles is, we might still refer to them by full name under the "fairly often used" standard. In this case, the subject credited by full name, so I don't follow the reasoning for dropping the surname. Kauffner (talk) 01:29, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move (2012): Sooyoung → Choi Soo-young

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was Not moved. Only one oppose to the move request. Perhaps opening a discussion at request for comment to see what other editors views are on the two suggested names. Then resubmit a request based on the results of that RFC. Wesley ☀  Mouse  19:04, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Sooyoung → Choi Soo-young – This proposal would move the title from a show biz nickname to a more encyclopedic full name style, per WP:NCP. Most of the other members of Girls Generation are already given in this style. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 09:48, 3 June 2012 (UTC) Kauffner (talk) 17:08, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Supporting material

 * Guidelines. It is common to refer to celebrities by short forms such as Ozzy, Oprah, or Beyoncé, but this style is not appropriate for an encyclopedia. As WP:NCP puts it: "Don't use a first name (even if unambiguous) for an article title if the last name is known and fairly often used."
 * Professional credits. The argument for moving the subject to this lemma was that this was her WP:STAGENAME or professional name. I have looked into this issue and I don't think this is in fact the case. The IMDB entry that this claim was based on has since been corrected. The subject appeared in the 2008 movie Hello, Schoolgirl credited by full name, according to allmovie, MySoju, and HanCinema, plus Korean-language sites KMDb and Cyworld. She was also credited by full name for Going Together, and for a cameo on the sitcom Unstoppable Wedding. I did not find her credited anywhere as simply "Sooyoung".
 * Other sources. Her Facebook site, KBS profile, and fan site all give the subject by full name. "Sooyoung" is a common name in Korea, so in many situations it would be confusing to refer to her by given name only. For example, there is a character named "Sooyoung" in Hello, Schoolgirl. The Korean press calls her "Girl's Generation Sooyoung," but this solution is certainly not encyclopedic. Kauffner (talk) 10:31, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Survey

 * Oppose per all my arguments two months ago. Nothing has changed since then. SKS (talk) 18:25, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not true. IMDB was corrected to note that the subject is credited by full name for her role Hello Schoolgirl. The STAGENAME argument never made sense to me, since the current title is simply a short form of her full name. Kauffner (talk) 03:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Now that Yuri has been moved to Kwon Yuri, all the other members of the band are at full names or stage names (as opposed to mononyms). It's another reason to move this title, per the consistency criteria of WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. Kauffner (talk) 04:45, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2014

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved: per discussion Ground Zero | t 23:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Sooyoung → Choi Soo-young – This name should be given in the same format as band leader Kim Tae-yeon, which has been freshly confirmed. The issues are the same here. When the subject is representing her band, her name is generally given as "Girls' Generation Sooyoung." This may be the most common form of her name, but it is unencyclopedic. This proposal would put her name in our standard format for Korean names. (See here ) The subject has a significant acting career, and in this context she is referred to in the proposed form: (See HanCinema.) She did a cameo of herself as a singer in this TV show. So the credit is "Choi Soo-young" and she is described as playing the character "Girls' Generation Soo-young." Soo-young is a common name in Korea, not a Madonna-style mononym identified with a single individual. Here are two examples of JoongAng using the proposed form:,. Pinging the participants in the previous discussion: TerryAlex, DragonFury, Jaewon, Sawol. Clodhopper Deluxe (talk) 04:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support per argument above and WP:NCP Evaders99 (talk) 07:31, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Joongang Daily also uses the form Sooyoung . Soo-young is not her commonly used name. Sooyoung is the commonly used name in the world, and the primary topic of Soo-youngs. Sawol (talk) 10:39, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support per Clodhopper Deluxe and Evaders99's argument ☴ Jaewon &#91;Talk&#93; 13:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Footnote: Unfortunately, it turns out that the nominator of that requested move (Clodhopper Deluxe) is a sockpuppet of the community-banned user Kauffner (the same user that previously requested the same article renaming action as recorded above, but was unsuccessful with the first attempt), as documented at Sockpuppet investigations/Kauffner/Archive. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:45, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * You should probably discuss this with Teemeah, if you want. Teemeah is an expert on the KPOP pages who I've seen on the talk pages on occasion. Although I'm all for this type of naming conventions on Wikipedia (pertaining to KPOP pages), Teemeah has more experience in these pages so you might want to ask for opinion from her. Tibbydibby (talk) 19:58, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

, it's complicated in K-pop... and in Wikipedia it has been inconsistent from the beginning. I would be in favour of making a rule of thumb like, if the person has released a single/album/dvd/movie/TV series under a pseudonym (even if it is her/his first name), then it should be the title of the article. Otherwise it should be the full name. Exceptions are the ones who have a made-up unique stage name like Block B's Zico or L from Infinite - they are known and referred to this way most of the time. In K-pop most other idols are usually known by their first names only. I would still prefer to use the full name if their stage name is not a unique chosen name or they have not published anything under their "first name" type of pseudonym. For example, Hyuna also uses her first name as a stage name, but she has released records under this name (and not her full name). On the other hand, Junsu's article is just his first name, while he never released any records under this name. He released albums as XIA Junsu not as Junsu. I think the Korea Wikiproject should draft a proposal for naming convention of Korean celebrities and then go through all the articles and rename accordingly. It's really a mess right now. Teemeah 편지 (letter)  21:07, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I would love to work on changes to the naming convention. I think we need more people besides the ones we see on wikproject talk because a lot of contributors don't communicate on it and edit-and-go editors. &#9780; Jaewon &#91;Talk&#93; 00:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Removal of dating news
The dating news for this article was taken out a while back, but for future references, I started a discussion about this topic here. Please help to discuss. Thank you.--TerryAlex (talk) 14:32, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

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