Talk:Chor Leoni Men's Choir

Prod tag
I appreciate the administrator's concern over spam in this page. I am a newbie at submitting material to Wikipedia and, in order to avoid factual error, was using the choir's promotional copy for material. I have edited out any wholly subjective material and made the copy as factual as possible. I hope this meets with the administrator's concerns. Is it possible for ME to remove the "prod tag"? I am also trying to add the choir's logo to the page but am having difficulty doing so. Although copyrighted, the choir makes the image freely available for publication on its website. I have uploaded the image to Wikipedia Commons but don't know what to do from there. Can anybody help? Vivo4 (talk) 15:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Concern about notability
I think this choir is notable because it has won 5 top prizes in various categories over a decade in the most important choral competition in Canada, the CBC Choral Competition. I note that one of the criteria for notability of a musical group is "9. Has won a major music competition." Vivo4 (talk) 00:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Please provide references so others can verify that they won the awards. Also that the choir has been written about in general. That is why I added those tags. -Optigan13 (talk) 04:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate that. I have added links to websites of the organizations which awarded the last 3 prizes in the list. I doubt very much that I can provide a reference to printed material verifying the same. I hope that's sufficient. Unfortunately, the CBC Choral Competition website does not maintain a list of all past winners, just the immediate past winners. Does that mean I have to remove those prize listings prior to 2004? Thanks for your help, btw. Vivo4 (talk) 18:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I have converted the external links to footnoted references as you suggested. I have also provided a reference footnote to general material written about the choir on the Vancouver Foundation website. I hope that these will be sufficient to satisfy the concerns about notability, lack of references and neutral point of view. If so, does that mean I can remove the tags re: notability and lack of references, at least? I will attempt to improve the lead tomorrow. Vivo4 (talk) 05:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I have also added a non-free use rationale to the image, as you requested on my talk page. I am just assuming that where I placed it is where it goes. It does seem awkward and cumbersome where placed though. And to tell the truth, I'm not sure the logo is non-free use anyway. From what I've read here, logos are not amenable to copyright and I'm not aware that the image is trademarked. Vivo4 (talk) 16:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Notability criteria concern major awards. The awards in question do not seem to have generated any reliable, third-party coverage. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 12:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how to respond here without getting angry. The awards which I cited and referenced and whatever else you needed are THE major national awards for amateur choirs in Canada. The references were to 3rd party sources. I don't know how you can suggest that these sources are somehow "unreliable". Mdsummermsw, you seem to have appointed yourself "editor-in-chief" for choirs in the world and yet are unaware of these awards. Apparently, the references I gave were good enough for Optigan13 who initially called the notability of this article into question and then removed his tag with respect to notability once I'd provided references. I'm not sure anymore what to do to satisfy you people and I'm getting very tired of this. All the platitudes on Wikipedia about "assume good faith" and "Don't bite the beginners" seem to be just that. If this sounds sarcastic or bitchy, I'm sorry for the tone. I'm just fed up. Vivo4 (talk) 22:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The speedy deletion tag was declined by the admin who reviewed it, so that's over for now. But please provide more third party referenced articles that talk about the choir in depth. You mentioned coverage in the Vancouver Sun on Mdsummermsw's talk page (diff), provide that. The awards help establish notability under the broader and more permissive musical criteria. Providing multiple articles from reliable third party sources: i.e.; magazines, newspapers, books, and websites which have written about the choir establish the choir under the general notability criteria, which is not nearly as permissive as the musical or other specific article type notability criteria. The references provided establish that they have won awards, satisfying the music criteria, but articles would satisfy the general criteria. Think of it as if you had to prove everything you wrote about the choir, what information could you show us that tells us that. Also don't take it personal, Wikipedia gets a huge amount of promotional material, the editor who tagged the article for deletion may have trying to delete it because of a common promotional article type, which is bands. The article wasn't valid for the speedy deletion criteria (WP:CSD specifically), but that isn't to say the article is immune from an article for deletion nomination where the article would be considered for deletion over the course of about five days. Even if it is deleted you can still recreate it at a later if you provide additional references, or material that was not present during the nomination. So please provide references to address the general notability criteria, then go back to writing the article. -Optigan13 (talk) 00:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops. My apologies. I didn't realize there were two levels of notability requirements. I will attend to getting those covered. I'm just assuming citations to newspaper reviews will only require date, publisher, title of article, author - that sort of thing. Obviously, being print media, I can't provide links. Secondly, I just checked and the link I provided to the Vancouver Foundation's website (with the intention of confirming the general content of the article) contained a typo which prevented anyone who wanted to check the reference from actually seeing anything. Doesn't help my cause, does it? I've fixed it. Again, sorry, and I'll move as quickly as I can on getting a list of print references. Thanks for your input. Vivo4 (talk) 00:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization
Is it possible to get the choir's name appropriately capitalized? I originally headed the article "Chor Leoni Men's Choir" which is the choir's name. LegoTMK changed that to "Chor leoni men's choir" presumably to conform to Wikipedia's rules about capitalization of article titles. However, I note in the article "Canadian choirs" that all the choirs there have full capitalization. I have added the category "Canadian choirs" to the bottom of the Chor Leoni article and, because the choir's name is not fully capitalized, our listing looks amateurish in that article. Vivo4 (talk) 21:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Fix't. --lifebaka (Talk - Contribs) 14:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Lifebaka. YOU are kind. Vivo4 (talk) 22:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)