Talk:Choy Li Fut/Archive 1

New page with references and sources
This page was created because some users are pushing some sort of agenda on the other Choi Lei Fut page. These users are preventing others from contributing historic information with references and valid sources regarding the development and history of Choi Lei Fut. The other page is not neutral or fair, so to avoid creating any animosity, this page was created. The writers of the Choi Lei Fut page can write what ever they wish to write, while those who are not in agreement can reside here. It is unfortunate that they are not willing to cooperate or write in a neutral fashion that would allow both sides to be heard. Huo Xin (talk) 05:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Added partial forms list and weapons list
I've added a partial forms list and the 52 weapons of Choy Li Fut to the page. Huo Xin (talk) 16:46, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Peacock terms.
On a scan thogh i saw a few phrases like "is a powerful and dynamic martial art" that are definitely peacock terms, I have removed a few as that type of wording is not appropriate. --Nate1481 11:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!
Thanks Nate for removing the peacock terms. I'm trying to find more references as well. I want to make this page as neutral and informative as possible without taking too much away from the historical perspective of the times. Huo Xin (talk) 23:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

added characteristics section
I added a characteristics section to help read flow and to provide more depth to the art. Huo Xin (talk) 22:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

moved sections around
I added a characteristic section and moved forms and weapons sections below it. Huo Xin (talk) 22:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed wikify template
I removed the wikify template because I put in a lot of internal links. I will continue this. Huo Xin (talk) 22:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Quote from Bruce Lee
Added the exact page number the Bruce Lee quote regarding Choy Li Fut is located in the book by Jesse Glover. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clftruthseeking (talk • contribs) 02:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Reorganizing and cleanup
I am current reorganizing and cleaning up the page to conform to wikipedia standards. History and logistical flow is now improved. Removing general cleanup reorganization template. Copyediting templates is still active. Huo Xin (talk) 17:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed copy edit template
Article is now well written and presented. Flows chronologically with excellent detail. Removing copy edit template and will continue to monitor and refine. Huo Xin (talk) 19:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Change name back to choi lei fut
I don't know who changed the article name from Choi Lei Fut to Cai li fo. Since this is a southern martial art and it does have its globally recognized English equivalent as "Choi Lei Fut", I say we should use "Choi Lei Fut" instead. The same analogy can be applied from Wing Chun (not Yong Chun), and Hung Ga (not Hong Jia). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohnobananas (talk • contribs) 19:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The name seems to have been changed due to an editing dispute and various edits of the article conflicting with each other. Now that that's done, I agree that the name should be changed back - it's a southern art, its founders were likely native speakers of Cantonese, and the current major practicioners typically refer to it in English by the Cantonese name. Ergative rlt (talk) 14:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree that the name should be changed. The dispute was not due to editing. In China, the proper name is recognized as Cailifo (Mandarin). You are most likely correct about the Cantonese usage, however, your assumption that that is Choi Lei Fut, is inaccurate and unfounded. The current major practitioners in the U.S, U.K. and Europe spell it Choy Li Fut. Besides, the english variants are covered in the information box to the right of the opening paragraph. The spelling, Choi Lei Fut, is common primarily in Australia as far I have been able to ascertain.Clftruthseeking (talk) 04:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That the major practicioners in the US and UK (and by implication Australia) use the Cantonese name is a strong case for returning to a Cantonese name for this article - see Use the most easily recognized name and Use common names. Also, note Huo Xin's comment of 17 June, and that Ohnobananas and myself are different people. Ergative rlt (talk) 00:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not see his (Huo Xin) statement as a justification for the name change, but I do see your point. The other article had no references nor citations amongst other concerns. What name do you propose? Why would one want to be Western-centric? Cantonese is no longer a language supported by the Chinese government, not that I am in favor of this, but Beijing has recognized Cailifo as a National Treasure. The other variations are redirected to this page, so I assert that the present name is correct in its worldwide accessibility and recognition across languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clftruthseeking (talk • contribs) 04:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC) Clftruthseeking (talk) 04:42, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It occurred to me that if you want the page in Cantonese it needs to be in Chinese characters. The English variations are all a result the inability of the phonetics being able to accurately duplicate the intonations in the Chinese language. With this in mind, I'm unsure what is really being asked here.Clftruthseeking (talk) 04:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Stop this arguing please
 * It is not good to nitpick over little details such as this. We have a great page here which gives credit to many of the branches of Choy Li Fut.  The only reason why anyone would want to change the name of this page is for political reasons.  Lets keep politics and passions out of this wiki page and concentrate on the content.


 * I believe that the page should be left as Cai Li Fo. I will add both Mandarin and Cantonese to the top description.


 * Okay, let me explain the linguistic problems.


 * First Chinese as a spoken language is tonal not phonetic like most western languages such as our English. There are basically 4 tones in Mandarin, 7 in Cantonese.  The system of writing Chinese words into English is called Pinyin.  For example "choy" can be written as "Choi" or "Tsoi", etc.  That is because it is difficult to write tones and refined sounds into letters.


 * To try and standardize the English writing of Chinese words and to take into consideration pronunciation, pinyin standards such as Gwoyeu Romatzyh of 1928, Latinxua Sin Wenz of 1931,Wade-Giles (1859; modified 1892), zhuyin, etc.. were created over history to address these problems. Each of them had differing standards.  The official 2009 national standarized pinyin of China is called Hanyu Pinyin.


 * There are 107+ known spoken dialects in China. In Cantonese alone, you have dialects such as Toi-san, Sam-yup, Sei-yup, Gok-gong, Hakka, etc.. Each will pronounce "Choy Li Fut" slightly different, thus the transliteration to English, depending on what pinyin you used, and when it was used, will create differences in the English spelling.   An example would be the word "Chi".  If you use the Chinese Postal Romanization,  you can write it as Chi, ch'i, and hsi (pinyin ji, qi, and xi) are represented as either tsi, tsi, and si or ki, ki, and hi depending on historic pronunciation, etc.  The official Chinese Hanyu Pinyin of 2009 romanized spelling of Chi is Qi, whether you like it or not, whether you are from the South or North.


 * So arguing whether Choy Li Fut should be written as Choi Lei Fut or Tsoi Lee Fot, is ridiculous and wasting time. If you wish to conform to the most popular Southern Cantonese standard for the name, the "Choy Li Fut" would be the one.


 * Another problem. To make Choy Li Fut a widely known martial arts in China, and to standardize it's name.  You have to use Mandarin.


 * To unify the country as a whole and remove the dialect issues. The government of China made Mandarin the official language of China.  Since Hong Kong is now part of China again, Mandarin is now the official language in Hong Kong even though people still speak their dialects.  Even with written and spoken Mandarin, Taiwan uses the older written language while mainland China uses a simplified version.  Most people born and educated before WWII in China and Japan can read the old style of writing as well as the newer simplified form.


 * To deal with this issue, I will mention both names at the top of the article. To deal with transliterations of the romanized spellings, when a wiki user types in any transliteration of Choy li Fut, Cai Li Fo, Choi Lei Fut, whatever, the wiki has been set up to auto-magically send them to this page. Huo Xin (talk) 18:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Request for semiprotection
is not the correct venue to request semiprotection. Please see WP:RFPP. However, from the history, I doubt any administrator would approve the request. Intelligent  sium  03:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Request for semiprotection - was denied?
Unregistered users with DHCP generated IP accounts from Italy are preforming inappropriate editing and abuse, e.g. removing relevant information, deleting entire sections, and modifying the Chinese characters to contain insults, within the Cai_li_fo wiki page. This vandalism has nothing to do with content disputes or contribute anything to the quality and accuracy of the article. It is a personal attack and defamation on one of the people (living biography exists) mentioned in the article.

Requesting semi-protection so that only registered users can modify the contents seems like a small request and would protect this page from being vandalized like the former Choy Li Fut pages were in the past. Huo Xin (talk) 18:11, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Adding your name as a former student
Some of you have been nitpicking on listing your names as a student of Doc Fai Wong. Eventually I will ask him to verify this. Normally only his directly taught students should be listed. In other words, if he was directly your Sifu then you can list your name. If you are a student of one of his students, then please refrain from entering your name. Huo Xin (talk) 20:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I am having trouble making sense of big parts of this article, but including oneself (or an acquaintance) as a former student and asking Doc Fai Wong to verify former students both amount to original research and such information should not be included in this article. Information about lineage(s) can only be included if it can be verified in published reliable sources, per Wikipedia guidelines. / ninly ( talk ) 15:37, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * In regards to your interpretation of original research and verified perspectives; this is strictly applied to all material in the mainspace—articles, lists, sections of articles, and captions—without exception, and in particular to material about living persons. Anything that requires but lacks a source may be removed, and unsourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. The verification of Doc Fai Wong lineage is not contentious and is verifiable. Please read the contents of: biographies of living persons for clarification. Huo Xin (talk) 22:44, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Please do not move page
I am the author and creator of this page. Please do not move the name of the page. Cai Li Fo is the Mandarin name of this style of martial art and other pinyin versions are not standardized. Mandarin pinyin standardization is the official standard for all of China.Huo Xin (talk) 20:00, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I won't get involved in the Mandarin-Cantonese debate, but the words Cai, Li, and Fo should all be caplitalised because they're surnames. And if it is decided to use the Cantonese name, I suggest spelling it as Choy Li Fat or Choi Li Fatt. The "i" sound is pronounced in Cantonese as "eh", so Li is pronounced as Lei but should still be spelled Li or Lee. And Buddha's name should be spelled Fat or Fatt, not "Fut". The U sound is pronounced like "oo" in Chinese, so "Fut" would rhyme with the English word foot.Morinae (talk) 10:43, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Of course I agree. Cai Li Fo should be capitalized, but the wiki will not let me use the rename page feature since it is the same letters. I will attempt the request with an administrator. Also, I understand your concern over the spelling of the Cantonese name, however what you are mentioning is called transliterations and if you do a search on "Choy Li Fat" or "Choi Li Fatt" will auto magically bring you to this page.
 * Here is a repeat of what I have previously said:
 * It is not good to nitpick over little details such as this. We have a great page here which gives credit to many of the branches of Choy Li Fut. The only reason why anyone would want to change the name of this page is for political reasons. Lets keep politics and passions out of this wiki page and concentrate on the content. I believe that the page should be left as Cai Li Fo. I will add both Mandarin and Cantonese to the top description. Okay, let me explain the linguistic problems. First Chinese as a spoken language is tonal not phonetic like most western languages such as our English. There are basically 4 tones in Mandarin, 7 in Cantonese. The system of writing Chinese words into English is called Pinyin. For example "choy" can be written as "Choi" or "Tsoi", etc. That is because it is difficult to write tones and refined sounds into letters. To try and standardize the English writing of Chinese words and to take into consideration pronunciation, pinyin standards such as Gwoyeu Romatzyh of 1928, Latinxua Sin Wenz of 1931,Wade-Giles (1859; modified 1892), zhuyin, etc.. were created over history to address these problems. Each of them had differing standards. The official 2009 national standarized pinyin of China is called Hanyu Pinyin. There are 107+ known spoken dialects in China. In Cantonese alone, you have dialects such as Toi-san, Sam-yup, Sei-yup, Gok-gong, Hakka, etc.. Each will pronounce "Choy Li Fut" slightly different, thus the transliteration to English, depending on what pinyin you used, and when it was used, will create differences in the English spelling. An example would be the word "Chi". If you use the Chinese Postal Romanization, you can write it as Chi, ch'i, and hsi (pinyin ji, qi, and xi) are represented as either tsi, tsi, and si or ki, ki, and hi depending on historic pronunciation, etc. The official Chinese Hanyu Pinyin of 2009 romanized spelling of Chi is Qi, whether you like it or not, whether you are from the South or North. So arguing whether Choy Li Fut should be written as Choi Lei Fut or Tsoi Lee Fot, is ridiculous and wasting time. If you wish to conform to the most popular Southern Cantonese standard for the name, the "Choy Li Fut" would be the one. Another problem. To make Choy Li Fut a widely known martial arts in China, and to standardize it's name. You have to use Mandarin. To unify the country as a whole and remove the dialect issues. The government of China made Mandarin the official language of China. Since Hong Kong is now part of China again, Mandarin is now the official language in Hong Kong even though people still speak their dialects. Even with written and spoken Mandarin, Taiwan uses the older written language while mainland China uses a simplified version. Most people born and educated before WWII in China and Japan can read the old style of writing as well as the newer simplified form. To deal with this issue, I will mention both names at the top of the article. To deal with transliterations of the romanized spellings, when a wiki user types in any transliteration of Choy li Fut, Cai Li Fo, Choi Lei Fut, whatever, the wiki has been set up to auto-magically send them to this page.

Huo Xin (talk) 23:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

King of weapons?
In citation 24 (http://www.martialarm.com/weapons/kungfu-weapons.html) it is the spear, not the 9 dragon trident. This is an irrelevant reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.214.52 (talk) 21:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Page on Cai Li Fo is not Infringing on Copyrighted material.
If one looks at the history of the Wikipedia page on this subject, it is clear that the page was started and edited prior to the creation of the web site that it now is alleged to be infringing upon. In fact, the material contained in the web page has been copied in part or in its entirety by the web site claiming to be infringed upon. The copy (text) used in the opening paragraph is identical to the Cailifo page on the Wiki; not vice versa.

This can be further proven by the fact that this style of kung fu has been around long enough and well documented to have established a common understanding of the history of the style and its founder as well as the subsequent generations of teachers. Historically, there is no evidence of a "Bird Form" of kung fu using the identical information contained in the supposedly infringed upon site. Cai Li Fo, having been based on the Shaolin teachings included a number of traditional animal styles including a bird; specifically, "Crane." However, this would not constitute a style called "Bird" Kung Fu.

Having participated in the development of this page from the beginning, I submit that this is not a copyright violation but someone copying an existing article on Cai Li Fo and using that information as their own.

Please release the article from this template.

Thank you. Clftruthseeking (talk) 02:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

No copyright infringement of the Cai Li Fo and Jeong Yim pages
( This is a copy of the text I sent to TexasAndroid. I wrote this letter so don't claim I copy infringed myself )

I understand that there has been some concern about copy write infringement regarding these two pages as well as others I have created. I can assure you that it is original prose and there are others who have contributed to these information contained here. We have been working on these pages for 2+ years now and have found that other sites have been copying our content and posting it on their websites and not referencing the source to the wiki pages. Even books have been published.

On the Cai Li Fo site, we have been working and verifying content with one of the Grandmasters of Cai Li Fo, who is considered the "holder" or librarian of the entire Cai Li Fo martial arts style in China, as well as referencing numerous books and articles to clarify the contents. The Jeong Yim site was created to offset a political issue regarding this person's involvement and history in the development of the Cai Li Fo martial arts style and to prevent vandalism to the main Cai Li Fo website. This allowed people who have strong alternative views of Jeong Yim's involvement and revisionist history, to post there.

If you have looked into all of the pages I have authored or have contributed to, you will find many, many wiki articles. Yip Man, Bruce Lee, Huo Yuanjia, Doc Fai Wong, etc. For example, the Bruce Lee wiki was in total disarray with vandalism and non-verifiable references being posted. I cleaned up, re-worded, validated, referenced, and restructured the entire article many months ago and it seems to help negate much of the controversial issues and vandalism. I feel I have been extremely careful in referencing sources and verifying content.

Many of the pages I have worked on have been copied into the numerous martial arts sites and last year books have been published containing word by word information from the wiki pages that I help create.

http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-martial-arts-Neijia-Dragon/dp/1156420164/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302633095&sr=1-3

and here:

http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Martial-Artists-Michelle-Doc-Fai/dp/1156827639/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302633243&sr=1-1

Please be advised that copying is generally the other way around. The history of Chinese martial arts is highly controversial. People are copying information directly from the wiki sites, posting it on their websites, and claiming it as their own. Many of these same people do not like the verified wiki content and references that I have posted, and in response have copied sections to their website and modified sections to conform to their non-verifiable, revisionist views.

This is a new tactic that I and co-authors have seen. First it was vandalism, now it seems they are using our published wiki information against us.

Please remove this "copyright infringement" block since it does not apply in many of these situations.

Huo Xin (talk) 19:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Choy Fook's Instructors
Included in the "founding" section is a legend of the 5 Monks. This paragraph incorrectly implies that Li Yau San was one of the 5 and that Choy Fook trained under the founder of Choy Gar. Though there is legend for each of the family systems; Hung Gar, Li Gar, Fut Gar, Choy Gar and Lau Gar, there is no indication that any of these predated Cai Li Fo. Cai Li Fo was a synthesis of Shaolin training taught by three individuals to Chan Heung. Documentation now states that those three teachers trained under Shaolin monks. It is very possible that CLF predates the "family" styles. Using Wong Fei Hong is an example, it is important to remember that he and Chan Cheong Mo were contemporaries. By that time, Chan Cheong Mo was 3rd generation Cai Li Fo.

It is possible that one of Choy Fook's teachers, Li Sou, was one of the legendary 5 in place of the stated Li Yau San, but it is not clear if that establishes enough certainty to be included as historical fact. There is no documented evidence of the relationship. I did not remove the reference to the legend because it is important that this is discussed fully prior to editing such a section. Please express your viewpoint on this matter. Clftruthseeking (talk) 23:30, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Cai Li Fo Level of Importance Should Be Increased
Cai Li Fo has been recognized by the PRC as being a National Treasure. The level of importance of this article should be increased well above "Low". Clftruthseeking (talk) 23:36, 12 May 2011 (UTC)