Talk:Chris Benoit/Archive 5

Was Benoit an American?
Does Benoit belong in the American categories (and is he a Canadian American)? While some people (myself included) believe permanent residents should be considered American it has been the general trend of wikipedia to go strictly based on citizenship because that is a non debatable (and non POV) standard. see the archived discussion at Seung-Hui Cho for some good back and forth on this.

So that being said did Benoit ever become a citizen of the united states? If not then should we should remove all of the American categories? harlock_jds 03:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * He moved his permanent residence to America a while ago, it wasn't something recent, so either he was an illegal alien to the US, or he was American. And considering he was touring the United States with the WWE for approxiamtely 3/4 of a year in the U.S., yes, he had to be a citizen. — M o e   ε  05:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No he could have been a permanent resident (aka had his green card) which allows him to live in the united states but does not grant him citizenship. Many people stop at this point instead of actually getting their citizenship (because it's time consuming and doesn't really give you that many additional rights). He did not HAVE to be a citizen no matter how long he lived in the states.harlock_jds 11:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe Benoit ever became an American citizen. Although he was a permanent resident, he was never reported as ever attaining American citizenship. Furthermore, Chris always considered himself Canadian only. He always mentioned being proud to be Canadian, as well as, being announced from Edmonton. In fact, when WWE decided to start billing him from Atlanta, he was very upset with the company and stated that they cannot strip him of his Canadian citizenship (this information can be found on www.slam.ca, where there are many Benoit articles and interviews). Also, I do not believe that he should be listed as Canadian-American just because he was a permanent resident in the United States. The fact is that he was a Canadian citizen, was born in Canada, grew up in Canada, and always identified as a Canadian only. And I do believe that wikipedia should only list someone as Canadian-American only if they hold dual citizenship because there are many Canadians that live or have lived in the United States that haven't become citizens and only view themselves as Canadians. Furthermore, in another article, Wayne Gretzky is listed as a Canadian, when in fact he is Canadian-American since he holds dual citizenship (he acquired American citizenship years ago). And the general consensus on that article is that although Wayne is Canadian-American, it is felt he should only be listed as Canadian because of his strong identity as a Canadian. Therefore, the same should apply to Benoit because everyone recognizes him solely as a Canadian, and there aren't any records to my knowledge that he ever became American. I don't think it would be accurate to list him as Canadian-American just because he was a permanent resident. And permanent residency does allow you to work and live in this country without being a citizen, so it should not be assumed that he had to be American. User: Senorcanadiense 08:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * My opinion is that someone who lives in and is permanent resident of a country should normally be identified as a person from the country, as well as from the country they have citizenship with. However self-identification trumps all and if it's true (based on reliable sources) that he did not consider himself an American then we should not call him an American. Indeed we should mention this fact in the article. However reliable sources are important here, not fan speculation, OR, or what happens in the WWE (as wrestling is a scripted entertainment medium, it's easily possible the reason he was identified as Canadian there had nothing to do with what he wished to self-identify with). Unless a reliable source can be found that he did not consider himself an American then yes, he was a Canadian and an American Nil Einne 08:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Like i said i before agree with you about Permanent residents being considered Americans but that isn't a unanimous POV (even among people with permanent residency). I think in order to be neutral we have to stick with Citizenship (which is pretty undebateable). Also note thatbefore all of this happened Benoit wasn't considered an american in any catagory... not sure why he is now.harlock_jds 13:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I identify as Canadian, although because I work in entertainment, it's quite possible that I might end up working (and therefore living) in the United States. If I lived all my life identifying as Canadian (which I would), and did not try to attain American citizenship, and yet after my death people started calling me an American when I wasn't around to correct them -- well, I get *really, really* upset thinking about that happening in my future. If, Chris Benoit self-identified as Canadian and held only Canadian citizenship, he's Canadian -- period! (That covers both legal and personal preference -- what else is there?) I realise that a murderer's preferences may not count for much, but a Canadian's preferences do, thank you very much.--65.95.121.252 03:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I've decided to include some quotes from Chris himself, as well as, the links to the articles they are found in.

Source 1

"When I found out they were going to (do that), I didn't just go with it," explained the 5-ft. 11-in., 220-lb. Benoit.

"I went and sat down and had a one-on-one conversation with Vince (McMahon). I went right to the horse's head and said, 'I don't feel quite comfortable with it. Why are you doing it?' "

McMahon, the WWE's top executive, told Benoit the company was going with a different approach and the Canadian, probably a little reluctantly, accepted the reasoning.

"Am I supposed to quit? Who's going to take care of my family? If that's the direction they want to go in, what am I going to do? I'm going to make the best of it, which is what I'm doing," said Benoit.

Benoit notes the WWE hasn't yet stripped him of his Canadian identity by asking him to turn heel on Canada and play villain to wrestling fans north of the border.

"They haven't asked me to go out as an angle on TV and renounce my citizenship or knock Canada or knock where I'm from," he said.

Would he consider going anti-Canadian if asked to do so?

"I'd have an issue with it, just like when I found out they were going with where I reside," said Benoit, who trained in the legendary Hart Dungeon with the late Stu Hart.

He's a got a work visa to ply his trade in the U.S. and Benoit has absolutely no intention of becoming an American citizen -- ever.

"Yeah I live in Atlanta and two of my kids (Megan and Daniel) were born in Atlanta and it doesn't take away from where I'm from and what I'm about," Benoit said.

"And believe me, when I retire, I'm going to be back up here in Canada, in Calgary or Edmonton or B.C."

"I'm a Canadian at heart."

Source: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2004/04/18/427743.html

Source 2

Benoit's most loyal fans would have noticed a change since Wrestlemania 20.

Product of Atlanta?

He had always walked down the aisle to the ring, announced as hailing from "Edmonton, Alberta, Canada," but since winning the title, Benoit's entrance has been altered to "now residing in Atlanta, Georgia."

The change was not Benoit's decision, but a move by the WWE to have all of their "faces" (good guys) announced as from the United States.

Don't be discouraged, faithful Crippler Cronies.

"I had to move to Atlanta for work purposes. I'm sure a lot of families have been split up because they have to do what's best."

"I do reside in Atlanta but that hasn't changed anything as far as what I consider my home."

"I could get on the mic and run my mouth but I do my talking in the ring ... They say home is where your heart is and I consider Edmonton my home."

Source: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2004/04/18/427740.html

Source 3

"Every time I come out and hear my name announced and they're saying from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, I'm very proud of that," said Benoit, regarded by many insiders as the best pound-for-pound wrestler in the world. "I'm proud of where I came from, proud that Stu Hart trained me."

Source: http://slam.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingBenoit/benoit_00apr16.html

Source 4

"It doesn't take away from the fact that I'm Canadian and from Edmonton," 36-year-old Benoit said during a visit to the Sun yesterday.

Benoit even took it up with McMahon.

Besides, Benoit vowed, no American twist to his on-stage moniker could ever terminate the veteran grappler's patriotic ways.

"They haven't stripped me of my citizenship and are not knocking Canada," he said.

"When I plan on retiring I'll be up here in Canada, either Calgary or Edmonton."

Source: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2004/04/17/426667.html

User: Senorcanadiense 07:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well that's indisputable I'm afraid, there's no question he should be listed as a Canadian. Incidentally, there was no question about that even before these quotes, it isn't common practice to list people's nationality on the basis of where they live. It's always been citizenship. Blankfrackis 14:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well if it matters I did a quick Google search and everything I saw said he is a Canadian. -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  11:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Should we consider all the illegal immigrants in the US Americans, too? Benoit was only an American if he took and passed the Citizenship Test.--Dkompelien 20:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Mentally handicapped son?
[|This source] states that Benoit's son was mentally handicapped. Can someone please explain? Especially with those rumours of him taking drugs... Unreliable source? Hoodie 11:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Apparently the issue of whether Daniel had fragile X syndrome is by no means settled with the parents of Nancy, who spent time with the child regularly, saying they were not aware of any such issue, ESPN --Justanother 11:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's bizarre, I heard he had autism.--VorangorTheDemon 04:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Fragile X Syndrome in many ways can be compared to autism. I think that was mentioned in the WWE.com article. Legendotphoenix 15:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

why
does it have to be repeated so much in his article that he killed his family?BlueShrek 03:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Because it's what he's more widely known for. Benoit was known for as a wrestler, but now he's more widely known as the wrestler who murdered his family. --VorangorTheDemon 04:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

But why does it have to be in the opening of the article?BlueShrek 16:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Because that is what is is notable for, and the lead (opening) of the article is to be a summary of the major points of the article. The murder-suicide is a major point of the article (or at least should be). - T-75| talk | contribs  18:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"Because he killed his family" is the answer JayKeaton 04:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC) It was his death. It should be under "Death" right before "In Wrestling".

WWE's Reaction
Why is the last section even in the article? It only repeats things already said before and it's not written very encyclopedic. "Some people say" shouldn't be in the article and it shouldn't say "as of this morning" or "this afternoon". --SGT Tex  14:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. --Guyver8400 15:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thirded. Legendotphoenix 15:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Fourthed, and removed. Contained too many weasel words and it already repeated in the paragraphs above it. — M o e   ε  16:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The WWE has taken down some popular fan-created Benoit tributes (even ones that were made LONG before he died) from YouTube. This seems rather notable that WWE is going to YouTube and ranting about their copyrights when you can search and find direct promos from them on the site, yet they are removing fan-created music videos.71.158.182.251 18:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC) in wwe titles history section, every chronicle about every title won by benoit, has been removed.

Archive?
Should we start to archive all the murder-suicide related stuff on the talk page? I really don't think anything notable is going to happen that would deserve being added further to the article. Or at lease archive this page, as it's getting entirely too long? Legendotphoenix 15:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Archiving finished. — M o e   ε  16:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The Benoit family murder-suicide tragedy
Its time to start a new article. At the moment, the murder-suicide section is way too large. Any thoughts. QuackGuru talk  16:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed previously, and it was decided that we shouldn't. He is just as famous for murdering his family as he is for being a wrestler, if he isn't more famous as a killer, so the article on him should reflect that. The Hybrid 16:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * He is more famous as a killer than a wrestler. I recommend a summary here and a new article started. This has made national headlines. QuackGuru  talk  16:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I highly suggest we wait awhile. This article is fine for now. Not to mention, for all we know, all the rumours of it being someone else could be true. --ʇuǝɯɯoɔɐqǝɟ 17:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Just give things time to calm down. Once we have all the facts we can trim down the death section by removing speculation etc. I also don't think the wikipedia controversy will be important long-term. The latter parts of his career could probably be trimmed a bit as well. DrWarpMind 18:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Him being more famous as a killer is precisely the reason that we should not trim the section in this article, and then create a new article. This article must have all of the information regarding the murder to be a good article. The Hybrid 18:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Him being more famous as a killer is precisely the reason that we should trim the section in this article, and then create a new article. This article should not have all of the information regarding the murder to be a good article. WHY? The inclusion criteria is an article on Chris Benoit and not also the murder. Please read the title of this article. It does not say: The Benoit family murder-suicide tragedy. We have essentially two articles in one. What next? QuackGuru  talk  19:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed--Guyver8400 19:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Look at the OJ page. They don't have a seperate page for the murder. Only for the trial. And he was FAR more well known than Benoit was. DurinsBane87 19:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, but O.J. Simpson was found not guilty of murder, so there couldn't be a page about that. (And the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman wasn't a big story. The trial was the big story.) The Chris Benoit murder/suicide is one of the biggest news stories of 2007 - and will get bigger as WWE faces the consquences of the fallout. It should be its own article because of that. But it's okay to wait a while so we have a better idea of how to put it into context. Celedor15 20:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

As well, the title would be OR because I haven't seen any common name given to the case by the media yet. I think it is fine on this page, and there really is no need to make a new one. -- Scorpion0422 20:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What title would you suggest for the new article. I recommend we start a subpage for the new article. QuackGuru  talk  02:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Once all the facts finish, the section can be condensed. Chris Benoit is most famous for being a murderer. the information belongs in this article. DurinsBane87 02:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)]
 * Incorrect, He is more famous for being a professional wrestler that is why the the murder got some much news. ExtraDry 02:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, guys, but anyone who doesn't watch wrestling didnt know who he was. Now everyone knows who he is. Not because he wrestled. People know him because he murdered his family. It's sick. But it's true. DurinsBane87 02:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * While that is correct, He would not of got the amount of publicly if he was some random guy off the street. So becouse he was a wrestler is why the murder made so much news. ExtraDry 03:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * that's true, but the fact remains that he's a household name because of his murderous actions, not his wrestling actions. DurinsBane87 03:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If a random citizen killed his wife, child, and himself, how notable would it be compared to this incident? I don't like the word famous, because it implies a positive connotation. He is now infamous for the incident, but I just wonder what the national news response would be. The initial buzz was because of his stardom, I believe. The problem I have with creating a brand new article is the question of notability. How worthy is this incident to have its own page? The Wikipedia policy says that it needs to be significant, reliable coverage, but I believe that notability comes once the buzz dies down. Will Benoit's fame make this story more notable than a normal person? Why does this particular event constitute notability though others don't? This event seems as if it will stick with the wrestling fans longer than the normal people. I guess I think of news stories in the recent past in America, such as the DC sniper attacks in 2002. How often do people think about that event? If it is often then alright, but is it? Notability seems to derive from the effect on history. How important is this event? Wikipedia should not be used to store present news, this is not a time capsule. If this event is deemed important enough to deserve notability and thus its own article, then so be it. I think that without knowing why this horrible event occurred, we can't make a reasonable judgment. If this is the catalyst of reform because of something that is revealed in toxicology or something, then it would be more notable than it is now. His family is not notable, and he is simply because he is a wrestler. I believe that saying he is more infamous for killing his family than wrestling is kind of awkward, because he is more infamous for killing his family because he is a wrestler. Five years from now, why will people look back at this, because he was a wrestler who killed his family or because he killed his family? I believe it will be the former, and I believe that this is the reason that a death page is unreasonable, unnecessary, and that the death section here should be trimmed maybe, or at least kept as is and just let the article go on. Goofyman 06:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The Benoit family was not notable besides the fact they were killed by Chris Benoit. I strongly oppose putting this on a new page, it needs to stay where it belongs, on the killers page: wiki/Chris_Benoit JayKeaton 04:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Not true. His wife was big in professional wrestling for two decades, and the child was the offspring of two famous people in wrestling. Granted, wrestling fame often isn't as big as fame in other venues, but this was still a "celebrity" family. And certainly our celebrity oriented culture has put more emphasis on this murder suicide than other similar incidents not involving celebrities. Just a couple weeks ago there was a guy who killed six people, including himself, in a domestic dispute here (Delavan, WI), and it hardly made a ding in the news. Benoit's murder/suicide was a huge story. The media and the popular culture are obsessed with celebrities. Celedor15 21:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, the media likes celebrities. And this celebrity murdered his entire family. His family never made news reports and unless they rise from the dead and start their own talk show, his family wont make the news reports for anything else. Benoit killing his family and then killing himself is, as they say, Benoits business. And it is Benoits news. JayKeaton 04:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that his family lacks notability on its own. Wrestlers aren't considered by the majority of the public to be "A-listers" by any means, much less a retired manager. Anyway, the only cases that I'm aware of where murders get there own articles is when a large number of murders, like over 20 or so, committed by a serial killer over a long stretch of time gained national media attention. Even then, not all such cases receive articles. I see no reason to remove perfectly relevant, sourced information from this article, nor do I see a precedent for it. The Hybrid 06:19, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

i think the page and many other media such as wwe is looking at the full thing wrong, yes chris benoit did a terrible thing but he was obviously not right in the head when he did it and i think that it needs to be investigated into what was going on before the murders, an affair etc. they may be doing that, im not sure but they need to make it public if they are. back to the wikipedia page, i think the section needs to be shortened because it is longer then some of the sections about his wrestling which is for the majority of his life he did, there is allready a seperate page for the deaths so i think there should just be a link to that on there rather then it all being on his page. benoit was a great wrestler and should be respected as such rather than just forgetting about him like the WWE has

Benoit's doctor charged
Anchoress 03:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I post a whole source about this yesterday, what happens, gets deleted, but the person that says Titties, he's article stays. I hate this website sometimes.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 12:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Relax. The "titties" comment was an unregistered IP doing some petty vandalism. I have deleted it from this topic.. I think Benoit's Doctor getting charged does belong in this article (or any possible separate article on the crime) as it is a direct result of the murder/suicide.--Garistotle 14:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

it's not a mater of relax or not, I modified this page probably a dozen times the last 2 months, yet others get a way with vandalism and I'm just trying to help out with knowledge I find out since I'm a Web Designer, i'm on the net all the time, so I get up to date info right away so I try to update this page as I find out..just seems like Wikipedia isn't as free sourced and everyone able to work on the pages as they say you can. I already had the Doctor information up on here to talk about it as we were going to talk about things before we put them on the article page, but again, my information got deleted and I even provided sources of where I got the info from....it just shows you how crappy Wikipedia is starting to get especially with this page since it's so "popular" now.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 19:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Here's more info abou that doctor, it seems now other wrestlers are involved now, including Ray Jr. LOL, here's the link. Chris Benoit's Crazy DoctorThe Cleveland Browns are awesome! 19:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Gary Wadler speaks out...
Concerning the "Roid rage" issue Dr.Gary Wadler has stated "that was a premeditated act and that's not rage, I would wonder whether there was some underlying psychiatric abnormality that was unmasked by being on steroids," []. I believe this should be integrated into the article, considering the status of Dr. Gary Wadler who currently serves on the World Anti-Doping Agency's (WADA) Prohibited List and Methods Committee and has served on its Health, Medicine, and Research Committee.  Wikidudeman  (talk) 06:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Whomever removed his comments, please explain here before removing them again. Thanks.  Wikidudeman  (talk) 18:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * He was at the scene? he examined the bodies? he's got the police files? --Fredrick day 18:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * He's an expert on Anabolic Steroids and their effects. He currently serves on the World Anti-Doping Agency's (WADA) Prohibited List and Methods Committee and has served on its Health, Medicine, and Research Committee and he has served as: Medical Advisor to the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, a Trustee of the Board of the American College of Sports Medicine and of the Women’s Sports Foundation. If his opinions aren't relevant on the issue then no ones is.  Wikidudeman  (talk) 18:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

POV
I find it very disturbing that a post from Stamford Conn. 14 hours before bodies were found is being so easily dismissed. I also find it strange that the evidence has not been followed completely before a conclusion is drawn.

As a criminal justice major going into forensics the post on wikinews needs to be more deeply investigated...stranger things have happened then murder made to look like sucide.

Just a thought unfortunately I am shocked if this truly was a murder sucide as the media is telling us I am very saddened because Chris Benoit was one of my favorite performers in the WWE to see this as what he will be remembered for is very tragic.

(68.224.239.100 06:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC))


 * Police have been investigating the person who made the post, but that's all I know at the moment. Arrowny 12:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Categories
Yes, Benoit purportedly murdered his wife and son, according to police investigations. The nature of this case is sufficient under the category murder-suicide (which in itself has its own article). Any additional categories are redundant and add ambiguity - categorization should be specific.

Technically, Benoit was not convicted by a Canadian court of law and therefore cannot be categorized as a either a Canadian criminal or a Canadian murderer. Plus, Benoit is notable as a wrestler - the people included in Categories such as "Canadian criminals", "Canadian murderers", "Criminals who committed suicide", "Murderers of children", are known specifically for those purposes. Throwing Benoit in with the likes of Paul Bernardo does not help users find what they're looking for any better.

I am not condoning what he did, nor attempting to push a POV on the categories. However, there is a standard with articles which sometimes is forgotten in the heat of the moment - I am sure there are many people who are upset by what has transpired, but we must maintain consistency. --Jay( Talk ) 17:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Benoit is notable as a wrestler - that is what he was originally notable for - however, he's now always going to be notable as "the wrestler who killed his family" - OJ doesn't come up in many conversations about being an actor or a footballer those days. --Fredrick day 17:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the Murder-Suicide category fits the description best without overloading the section with categories.--Garistotle 18:00, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * i think Canadian murderer and Canadian suicide should be included because the category murder-suicide is a subset of the 2 larger categories. if someone was doing research and wanted to see all of the articles categorized as Canadian murderers they should find Benoit in that list instead of having to include murder-suicide in their search criteria. as for Canadian criminals i can see dropping it since he can't be convicted. of a crime.harlock_jds 18:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Makes sense in theory. But technically, you shouldn't be using Wikipedia for research anyway... unless you want a bad grade. Rypcord 18:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * em.. yes you should be using wikipedia for research, no you shouldn't be citing it - there is a difference. It's perfectly legitimate for someone to use wikipedia to get the list of murderers and then use reliable sources for further information and to confirm. So the suggestions that you shouldn't ne using wikipedia for research (in the broader sense) is incorrect. --Fredrick day 18:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok captain, next time I'll be much more direct in meaning my citations exactly next time instead of using a broader term such as 'research'. Rypcord 18:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Somebody removed catagory "murderers of children". I don't think there is any loophole in convictions which state that Benoit did not murder his child, so I have added it back in. It should not be removed again unless the police come out and say "Sorry, we got it wrong, his sons death was an accident, he was not murdered". JayKeaton 04:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * He was never, and cannot be, convicted of murder, thus we cannot add him to a category of people who committed murder. — M o e   ε  04:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there's a difference between "Murderer" and "Convicted of Murder". It's possible to be a "murderer" without also being convicted of the crime.  Unless the "murderer" category states that it is a category only for convicts, then there's not reason not to apply the category more broadly given proper citations.  Rklawton 05:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No one has has added "Convicted murderers of children", which is why the category is "murderers of children". JayKeaton 06:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

not fragile X
it was on the news that his son possobly didnt have it
 * Source please? — M o e   ε  21:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The source is most likely the Internet wrestling community. Socby19 02:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)Socby19
 * Oh lord, well, when it's on FOX, CNN or something, let me know, but the internet wrestling community tends to be wrong sometimes :/ — M o e   ε  02:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, like when some random IP heard a rumour that his wife was dead and added that to the page. Wait a second... --ʇuǝɯɯoɔɐqǝɟ 02:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It's been on all the news stations saying that Nancy's family and Chris's family didn't know about the condition. Also the medical reports, along his Daniel's teachers said that he didn't have any learning disabilities and that he was of normal size for his age. I don't have a true source but that's what's been said on the news. (MgTurtle 02:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)).
 * Really.. I'll go look into that. — M o e   ε  03:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Found some sources that aren't from the pro wrestling community:  It appears that investigators do not believe that that child had fragile X syndrome at all commenting as there was no prior records of his disability, etc. —  M o e   ε  03:16, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hulk Hogan's comments
Hogan said that Nancy was into satanic stuff. This was quoted on one of the news programs. Could he be referring to her time with Kevin Sullivan's satanic group? No one else related to this case or who were friends of Nancy and Chris said anything like this! I don't believe anything that Hogan says (since he does tend to exaggerate things completely) but i thou8ght i should mention this.(MgTurtle 04:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC))
 * Seems that is correct. [(unreliable source - do not use) www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_21290023.shtml]  Hogan suggested that Benoit and Nancy had a domestic issues that arose because Nancy "worshiped the devil". —  M o e   ε  04:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I know that the Benoits and Hogan were all in WCW around the same time and stuff and they may have seen each other in the WWE but can we verify when he last saw the Benoits or it it just speculation still. I mean if he knew them well, wouldn't it be more known like Benoit and the Guerreros being friends and stuff like that? I'm just saying! (MgTurtle 04:46, 4 July 2007 (UTC)).

Hogan is just wildly speculating. There is nothing out there to show that Hogan & the Benoit's even associated outside of wrestling shows. This is just what Hogan does, he speculates about things he doesn't know & makes it come across as if it were fact. He has always done stuff like this in order to put himself over.--Hndsmepete 02:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

This may also be a form of speculation, but can Nancy's parents sue Hogan for slander or for saying things that are untrue? I know Hogan's always speculated, I mean just listen to the way he tells the story of 'Slamming the 800-pound giant'! I can't believe that the news believes his stories but whatever. (MgTurtle 02:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)).

I put the Hulk Hogan thing back in, because even though it is speculation on his part, the fact is that he still said it and has gotten a lot of critasisim over it. The Neverdoll 07:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey, who keeps deleting the bit about Hogan that I put in? Its a quote from US Weekly and no matter how many times I add it, someone keeps deleting it. If you're gonna delete it, at least say why! I mean, it's not like I'm saying Nancy WAS into Satanic stuff, I'm just saying that Hogan said said she was, which is completly true! The Neverdoll 07:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to clear this mess up. Hogan is being his usual self and fudging the facts. As some may know Nancy was at one time with former wrestler Kevin Sullivan. They go back all the way to a federation in Florida called CWF (Championship Wrestling from Florida). Sullivan had the gimmick of cult leader and Nancy as well as a few other wrestlers such as the Purple Haze were in this "cult". They worshiped a god known as "Naboudadean", not to sure on the spelling there folks so I spelled it like it sounds. You see Sullivan would claim to get visions from this god and well that is where all this satanic crap from Hogan is likely coming from. UnknownToaster 02:08, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thats probably WHY he said it, but everytime I add in that he HAS said it it gets removed. The Neverdoll 07:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Because it isn't important enough to put into the article. The Hyb rid  09:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough its not really a huge part of the incident, but if Hogan is going to call Nancy Benoits religious beliefs and the Benoit marrige into speculatuion and have a severe backlash set against him over it, does it not merit at least some mention? The Neverdoll 11:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hogan is in no way qualified to inform anyone that Nancy was too into her character. For Christ's sake, the character he's referring to was over 20 years before her death! And who is he to talk about being too into a character? That bald buffoon walks all over the place in his wresting tights! Does he expect Randy Savage to jump him in the Piggly Wiggly? If so, let's get them booked into a "Geritol on a Pole" match! Hogan needs to sit down and shut up.

Neighbor
There's also a report that says that a neighbor of the Benoits found the bodies and now she is in hiding from the media. The report also said that the WWE was trying to contact her. Does this adda new twist to this already bizarre and tragic story? (MgTurtle 04:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)).


 * Is it verifiable from a reputable source? --Jddphd 04:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll start looking. — M o e   ε  04:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I found one link thats not a pro wrestling site about it, but I must say that it is strange because it says that "Regan said McFague was close to Nancy and her son, who suffered from Fragile X syndrome that causes mental retardation, but that she didn’t care for Benoit." And if you see above, his fragile X syndrome status has been questioned, and this story is slightly newer than the one above by a couple of hours. Strange. —  M o e   ε  05:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

On the news program, she said that she found Benoit strange but they didn't say why or go any further into it. Sorry I didn't have sources for those two bits of information. I'll make sure I have a source the next time. (MgTurtle 05:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)). I have also heard that the neighbor called the cops, and the WWE said they called the cops out of concern for Benoit. I'm sure WWE wouldn't have said that they called the cops if they really didn't, that would look bad for them if they were found out JayKeaton 09:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * From what I understand on this angle, both WWE and the neighbor called the cops; the police went over to the house, but didn't want to enter the building on their own because Benoit's rottweilers didn't know them and were acting territorial. The dogs knew and liked the neighbor, so they asked her to accompany them into the house so the dogs would accept their presence, and she ended up being the one to actually find the first body.  Yet another bizarre twist in a bizarre story, but nothing sinister or mysterious.  Rdfox 76 23:59, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I read this in the local paper the other day: | Neighbor who found Benoit family flees to Hub CrimsonScholar 22:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Benoit changed his will?
I read somewhere that Chris Benoit had changed his will to where his sole beneficiaries were his older two kids plus his ex-wife. Also he had taken out a new life insurance policy...All of this happened like less than a month before this tragedy... I can't find the link anymore but it was kind of really odd to read that, especially if he was still with Nancy and Daniel. -- Shatterzer0 17:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have heard the life insurance thing... not the changing of the will. From the information I heard, he opened a second life insurance policy (entirely possible) where the sole benefiaries on that were his ex and two kids. --Garistotle 17:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Wrestlinginc.com has a story on it...they are a reliable resource. Probably the only wrestling media on the web that I trust. It states that Nancy confronted Chris about it and wanted him to change it but he refused.

I don't know about the will. But if he got a 2nd life policy and the final ruling is suicide than the new life policy will not pay as life insurance policies all have a 2 year suicide clause in them. Meaning, if you commit suicide within 2 years from opening the policy no death benefit will be paid.Thaglue11 18:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

WWE After the incident
I was checking up on the WWE website and found that in addition to all stories, merchandise, and vidoes related to Chris Benoit were gone. But on the Power 25 from June 23rd, his spot was whited out and when the next Power 25 came out he did not revieve the farewell for losing his spot
 * Currently on WWE 24/7 they have an airing of WCW Nitro from 2/10/1997 and his match and all references to him on that episode have been deleted. If you need a citation the only places you'll probably find one is on wrestling sites.--Hndsmepete 02:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Benoit was also removed from the "Power Is Back" pre-intro to all WWE projects. There used to be a quick shot of Benoit holding up the world title after his Wrestlemania 20 victory. The change to the pre-intro was made begining with the two Madison Sqaure Garden Classics episodes that aired on June 27th 2007 on the MSG Network in New York.

Sorry to burst your bubble but he hasn't been whited out from the Power 25 on June 23rd, http://www.wwe.com/inside/power25/061607/ --Duality344 13:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Little hunch.. it might help to check the right June 23. http://www.wwe.com/inside/power25/062307/ He was whited out. But don't worry... no biggy. --Garistotle 14:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * But if you check, Benoit is STILL listed on every other P25. I wonder if they are planning to remove...68.165.90.178 18:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It's also interesting to note that Benoit's name is no longer a clickable link on WWE.com's official championship history section. Names of former champions on those pages typically link to an article detailing their title win and subsequent reign, but all links to pages about Benoit's various WWE and WCW title victories have been removed (though his name remains in the tables). Jeff Silvers 23:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be rather difficult to delete the existence of someone holding a title. The belt was not vacant during those times, and it would require the WWE to make up a reason how the title was won. Crinos43 08:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed, if you go to the pages for PPVs, such as the Royal Rumble and WrestleMania, there are still pics of Benoit's matches. --Smart Mark Greene 06:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

someone want to tell me what Power 25 is?The juggreserection 13:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Nancy and Chris had split up?
Reading some weird things, like Nancy had put a note in a lockbox safe that said if anything happened to her, it'd be by Chris. Also, apparently Chris was staying at an apartment in Peachtree, GA and Nancy was staying at the mansion as the couple had recently split...

Any reliable sources? --Duality344 23:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I did a yahoo search and found this: . I am not sure it is reliable but I thought I would put it out here. Add it if you think it is reliable enough. CraigMonroe 02:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * it comes from the Wrestling Observer Newsletter which i don't consider reliable. At least wait till another site picks it up before adding.
 * So we are supposed to listen to the reliability of The Wrestling Observer by someone who doesn't know how to sign their name? BTW The Wrestling Observer is Very reliable when it comes to backstage stuff, as is the Pro Wrestling Torch & PWInsider, the rest of the sites just copy & paste what those 3 write.--Hndsmepete 10:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Benoit & Bower
On the page for Shayne Bower, a.k.a. Biff Wellington, there appears an amazing coincidence. (Benoit & Bower were both professional wrestlers from Canada. They were tag-team partners for at least 3 years, 1989-1992. Oh, and they both officially died on June 24, 2007.) If this information is correct, then shouldn't it be on the Benoit page as well?
 * Is that really that important? It would be different if the deaths were related.CraigMonroe 07:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's a situation that directly involves two people. One of those people has the information on their page (Bower), and the other one does not (Benoit). If it's not 'really that important' then why is the information on the Bower page? I don't think the information should be inserted into the 'death of' section, but I do think it should be on the page, maybe in parenthesis next to the Wellington link. (And whether or not 'the deaths were related' is beside the point. Their lives were related.)
 * It probably shouldn't be on the Bower page in my opinion. As far as their lives being related, you may have a minor point. However, it is of minimal--if any notability--in my opinion and should not be included. Especially when you consider that Bower did not die on the date you said he died. His "official date of death" will be a few days before June 24th according to the preliminary medical reports. But hey, what is a few days...right?CraigMonroe 14:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I read about Bower's death on the Observer over a week before the Benoit incident--he died BEFORE Sherri Martel did, which had people worried that it would be another "trifecta" of wrestler deaths. While the Observer may not be Wiki-reliable, it's reliable enough that I've seen it used as a source by the national media, and Dave Meltzer is invariably brought in as an expert interviewee any time there's a wrestling story that hits the mainstream media (and is more than just a legit-sports cameo)...  Rdfox 76 15:04, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: "Especially when you consider that Bower did not die on the date you said he died." My statement, as can be read above, says: 'both officially died on June 24, 2007'. Sorry if that information is incorrect, but I got it from your page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_in_June_2007 Eveything I've written here is sourced from Wikipedia. I'm not trying to have any material added that isn't already on the site. And, I don't see how it possible that you 'read about Bower's death on the Observer over a week before the Benoit incident' as, according to his parents, Bower was alive on 6/20, whereas Benoit was found dead by police on 6/25. Also, above you say that Bower 'died BEFORE Sherri Martel did', which, again, according to the Wikipedia page on Bower, is not true. Bower's parents (according to his Wikipedia page) had not heard from him since June 20, which is at least four days after Martel passed.
 * My page??? What page did I write? I don't see how in any way you can attribute a wikipedia page to "me." As for using wikipedia as a source, that is innapropriate. You need to find a credible third-party source. For example, do a search on yahoo for a newspaper article. Also, I don't know anything about reading about Bower a week before Benoit, but according tot he articles I found on the net, Bower's body was found on the 24th by Bowers father and he had been dead for several days before hand. Also, place four tildes (~) at the end of your post so it will have your signature. Thanks. CraigMonroe 19:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Error
In the article it says his son died on Saturday and Benoit killed himself later on Saturday or early Sunday. This is incorrect, the news has reported he killed his son on Saturday or Sunday and himself on Monday.
 * No, it has been confirmed that he did in fact, as much as it kills me to say this, Kill his wife on Friday, his son Saturday, and himself early Sunday morning as he text messages were sent at 4am. Trust me, i have watched wrestling for upwards of 10 years. This story has consumed my life since it has happened. But their first assumptions were that he killed his wife Saturday, son Sunday, and himself Monday. But since the autopsies have been performed, it was confirmed his wife died Friday, his son on Saturday, and hiself Sunday.--MCRluvr 2:41, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Grammatical error?
The article says:

"The DVD is now in high demand; sellers from Amazon.com have been offering as much as $150 for it."

How can a seller be offering money for something? Isn't it the buyer that offers money? Should I change it? This comment is my first ever entry on wikipedia btw, so I'm not really sure what to do. Liam, 6/7/07.

Well, if you haven't yet, register for an account so you can get past the lockdown. Then, change all that you want. I believe you should change that, it does sound strange. One Fried Egg 15:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Add Category:History of Wikipedia
This notes the issue of the Wikipedia entries correctly prophecying his murder-suicide —Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs)
 * done. --Rajah 10:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * and just for the record, the reason for the category addition is not just the edits, but instead the attention that those edits received. a la, Siegenthaler, Zoeller, U.S. Congressional staffers etc. --Rajah 10:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Split Needed?
Seeing as other arguments have been going on further up the talkpage, I think we need a vote for or against this. I personally think a split is needed, as the death section in this article is getting too long. I remember splitting the article of Bob Woolmer which was suspicious at the time, and has come along well since, at Death of Bob Woolmer. However, it could be argued that Benoit's death is getting more coverage than Woolmer's did, and therefore a new page is needed. I don't know what we could call the page, though, I was thinking of Death of Chris Benoit and his family, what do you think? Davnel03 08:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Support Split Oppose Split
 * i think the wiki edit stuff should be split out (since it barely related to Benoit and more to wikipedia itself) but not the rest of the murder stuffharlock_jds 13:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that the fame of the murder has far surpassed the fame of Chris Benoit. It should be mentioned here, sure, but I think that the event itself, and all that has gone on around it, merit their own page.RyanGrant 21:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Support split I just lurk this article but I agree this article is too long and that it should be split into two article. -- Crohnie Gal Talk  21:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I support a split, as Chris Benoit's entry should be based on his wrestling career in my opinion. Much like all other wrestlers, his death is in his entry, but seeing as how much publicity this has gotten and not only considering the heinous nature of it I believe that it deserves an entry of it's own. -- Shatterzer0 02:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment While I support the split because the event meets the criteria of WP:V and WP:RS to be notable in itself, I disagree that Benoit's article should be based on his wrestling career. I am part of the pro-wrestling project, but wikipedia is not a pro-wrestling site, it is an encyclopedia, and the bio of Benoit on wikipedia should be about his all of his live that can be pulled from reliable sources.
 * Support split I'm rather fed up of the arguing over this. The death is clearly notable in its own right, for different reasons from the life of Chris Benoit. With the coverage it has attracted, and the volume of media discussion about professional wrestling, this event - as didtinct from the life of Chris Benoit - already shows signs of altering the professional wrestling world significantly. Therefore it needs a separate article and, frankly, given that there are people who believe this, I find the stubborn opposition of others to the very idea to be disturbing.Lordrosemount 17:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I oppose it (as I said above). While events are unfolding there does need to be a longish section but this will be contracted when everything has been properly investigated and all the facts clarified. (Emperor 14:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC))
 * 'Oppose'. It's a current event thats still being dealt with, that why we have te tag at the top of the page. When things clear up, maybe we can choose to split it, but right now it's very premature. DurinsBane87 15:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose. Benoits biggest claim to notability is his child double murder suicide, it would defy all common sense to split that into another page. As for the wikipedia edits, I really don't think there will ever be enough info to warrent splitting that section into another page, it will just be merged back again JayKeaton 16:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now. It's too soon to make a decision if there's enough information to warrant a separate article for the murder-suicide; even though Wikipedia is not a news service, it's an undeniable fact that major events end up with information overload for a while, much of which is unnecessary and pared off once it "cools down" and people look at it more objectively. Rdfox 76 16:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose. There's nothing encyclopedic about a single event (of any magnitude) in a person's life. Single events can't be documented as separate subjects, unless they are notable from a substantial historical POV. We don't have an entire article dedicated to Hitler's time spent in prison, do we? Or we don't have an entire article dedicated to President Bush's High School career as a male cheerleader. Or a more related topic, we don't have an entire article dedicated to Ed Gein's murders, do we? No, the articles I gave as examples are written so that they can accomodate those events. There's not enough solid information on the subject to start an article on it anyway, or at least not yet. And most of the information that has been added to this article should be deleted, such as the content of the text messeges that Benoit sent. There's no encyclopedic value to that information, or how many steroids that his doctor perscribed. Also if we were to start an article on this individual, I am very confident that it would be merged into this one or deleted later on. --VorangorTheDemon 21:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose. It would benefit the article more to reduce the amount of specific details contained within the disputed section, as well as a reorganisation.  Putting this section into chronological order, and perhaps truncate some of the more tangential facts would clean everything up.  I mean, really, one year from now, who's really going to care that the pull-down bar was removed...? Physcher 22:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose. Anything that would be put into that article now would only be a stub. As it was said before, once we go through and clean up unnecessary details etc, the article will be more organized and will clearly not need a separate article for the murder-suicide.  (Not to mention the title doesn't sound all that nice to me.) Jezebel Parks 22:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose. There's no point in splitting the article, because the information given isn't worthy enough to have its own article, and would be marked a stub. Just edit it down a little bit. Legendotphoenix 15:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Comments
 * I don't like the title. Perhaps Benoit murder-suicide with redirects from Death of Chris Benoit and his family, Benoit family murder-suicide tragedy, Benoit family murder-suicide, etc. -- Wikidudeman  (talk) 10:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree with User:JayKeaton's claim Benoit's primary claim to notability is the murder-suicide; he qualified as notable under the Wiki standards for entertainers independently. Wiki makes no distinction between the "importance" of different notability arguments, merely whether the subject qualifies as notable or non-notable under the standards of its category.  This may seem a small point, but I've already seen people proposing that the article be rewritten to largely eliminate reference to Benoit's wrestling career, as the end of his life is "more important."  As I said, Wiki doesn't distinguish how important a given reason for notability is.  Since Benoit is notable as both a wrestler and a killer, the article must cover both aspects fully and accurately.  Rdfox 76 16:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * All those titles are way too long, why not just name it Benoit family tragedy. -- Shatterzer0 02:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Support split I just lurk this article but I agree this article is too long and that it should be split into two article. -- Crohnie Gal Talk  21:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * CommentI changed my mind, I think once everything calms down that this article can be rewritten so it's not so long, at least this is my decision for now. -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  23:52, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The argument that the current Chris Benoit article can just be edited down is a curious one to me; I've thought one of the strengths of wikipedia to be the fact that you can be expansive in a way that print encyclopedias can't. RyanGrant 23:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment This article has gotten way too large. We do not need permission to start a new article. Go for it! End of discussion. QuackGuru  talk  06:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * What I have decided to do for the moment, is create a new article, entitled Benoit family murder-suicide tragedy. However, in about a month or so, we can review this again, and if it needs remerging we can remerge it into the Benoit article. Davnel03 07:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * ExtraDry has mvoed the page to Benoit family tragedy. I've remove most of the content from this article, with most of it now in the new article. Davnel03 08:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Nominated for deletion for the countless reasons given above. See Articles for deletion/Benoit family tragedy.  Wikidudeman  (talk) 08:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

All but deleted
"WWE.com has all but deleted his name from all of his title reigns on their Title Reigns page."

Does that make sense? They haven't deleted his name at all.


 * All but deleted means they've done everything BUT delete him DurinsBane87 18:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

They are still selling DVDs with him in stores though, I see last years wrestlemania on sale still. He was in that US title match in that match.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 17:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

A snapshot of his now deleted ECW page can be found at http://i10.tinypic.com/6akrz9l.jpg. 1:45 July, 15 2007

Nancy?
Okay, I just wanted to add this to the discussion page. This may not even be important at all. I read on SEEScoops Pro Wrestling News that Kevin Sullivan said that Nancy hit him during the last year or years of their marriage. I don't have any other source that says this but I thought i would mention it because I guess because I thought it was unusual and could be untrue.Also does anyone know if Daniel was nancy's only biological child? (MgTurtle 18:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)).

Here's what I found on People.com:

"Friends searching for clues have also focused on Benoit's relationship with his wife, who, before the birth of their child, performed under the name Woman. Years before their 2000 marriage, Nancy was charged with aggravated battery after, according to her then husband, wrestler Kevin Sullivan, she came after him with a knife. She admitted holding the knife,but the charge from the 1997 episode was eventually dropped. Although she filed for divorce from Benoit in 2003, saying he had threatened her, the couple then reconciled."

That's all that I've found about anything like that so far and it's the first time I've heard about her doing anything like that to her ex husband. Here's the link to the story. The part I posted is on page 4. And I don't think she has any other kids, but I'm not sure.

(Scary4Eva 03:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)Scary4Eva)

Too Big
This article is way too big, instead of trying to make 2 different articles, why not just make one that is worth reading, since this one gets modified every 2 hours.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 18:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There is currenly a AFD for the other article. If you don't think there should be two that is a better place to go. --69.156.206.245 03:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Anthony
Yesterday, O & A were doing a segment on their show and it was about bad breathe contest. Anthony said that the guys breathe was as bad as "The Benoit family house". Can that be mentioned here or on the other page.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 17:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * What? Who? I fail to see how it's relevant. I fail to see how it's anywhere near relevant.  Wikidudeman  (talk) 18:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it's funny and relevant, it's shows Radio shows that reconize his death. Plus if you don't know who O&A is, then you not listen to the radio because they are the hottest thing out right now. Here's their entry.O & A I just wasn't sure if I could put it on here or over on their page.The Cleveland Browns are awesome! 19:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this doesn't sound too notable to me. This can't turn into a list of every mention of Benoit. DrWarpMind 23:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I strongly oppose the entry of it, I find it sick that someone has to use an element from a tragedy like this for their own sick sarcasim. Doesn't sound too hot. Yeah, Benoit flipped and killed his family and despite autopsy reports, toxicology reports...we will NEVER know what caused it all to happen.Jayjaykeith 15:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Wrestlemania XX
Under the murder-suicide section, it says that WWE.com's WMXX page lists the main event as Shawn Michaels and HHH, but I just checked the site and it actually says "When Triple H tapped out to Chris Benoit, it was the first time in WrestleMania history that the main event ended in submission.". Also, on the main event page, it mentions Benoit a few times, although the picture of him has been removed 71.159.131.94 20:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

WWE hasnt completely pulled everything. If you look on the power 25, for example, he is listed every week he was in the power 25, except for the week of the double murder-suicide, where it was deleted. Also, some videos with Chris Benoit still run. The ppvs that benoit was in show him instead of deleting him

Funerals
I wanted to add the fact that Nancy's and Daniels' funeral are being held together in Daytona Beach, Florida today (July 14, 2007) but i can't find a source for it other than the fact that nancy grace said this on her show last night. No word on Chris's funeral but it has been said that it's going to be private. Just thought i would add this so someone can finda reliable source. (MgTurtle 16:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)).

Earlier Report
I read an earlier report that said the Fayette Count DA stated when they found Chris Benoit, the bar that he used to hang himself with had been removed and he was seated. Therefore, I have to wonder how did he hang himself? [ 18:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC) angelsmwh 071407

I noticed that too. I just thought that maybe after he hung himself,gravity just brought he down into a seated position. He was 234 pounds and the weight was about 240 pounds so it does seem weird that he was seated when they found him but they haven't said that this may be a clue that he was killed or anything suggesting that. I guess we may never truly know. (MgTurtle 23:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)).


 * Just to clear up any confusion and to give you all the details (based on what I've read), he took the bar off of the weight machine (one of those you sit down in and then reach above your head and pull the weight down to you). He then did some combination of wrapping the chord around his neck (apparently padded with a towel), pulled the weights down, then sat down and let go of the weights.  I'm sure 240 pounds of weight suddenly snapped around anybody's neck is enough to kill them. -

T-75| talk | contribs 16:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Earlier Report
I'm not talking about weight being enough to kill someone. I'm saying the bar had been removed from Chris' neck. He could not have removed the bar, if he was already dead. Angelsmwh 01:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * HE REMOVED THE BAR BEFORE HE HUNG HIMSELF!!! thats already been stated! The juggreserection 13:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Best wrestler of ALL time needs cite
In the intro, "he had been regarded as one of the best technical professional wrestlers of all time" needs a cite. It previously read "of his time" which matched the Slam reference. He may well be regarded as one of the best of all time but someone else has to say it first. davidwr (talk)/ (track)  13:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)  Disregard, someone fixed it. davidwr (talk)/ (track)  18:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Chris Benoit has already been cremated
Chris was cremated in Georgia at the same time as his wife and son. Why reports continue to say his wife and son were buried by the way is ridiculous as their ashes were carried away by the Toffolonis in starfish-shaped urns on Saturday at the funeral. Findagrave.com confirms this and also states that Chris Benoit was cremated and his ashes given to a family member or friend.

No Alcohol?
Why wasn't there any report of alcohol in Chris's system when he was found with empty beer cans near his body? Were those cans there from another time? (MgTurtle 19:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)).


 * The site I'm reading, which is a summary of the toxicology report, states that Nancy's BAC was 0.184. It also makes the disclaimer that they aren't certain if that's from alcohol or from decomposition.  Mike 19:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If you looked in my room right now there'd probally be an empty bottle of Tequilla sitting near the trash, but that doesn't mean I drank it right before it was found. Beer cans could have been from any time, maybe even right after he killed his wife, and had enough time to flush out of his system again. Some people with messy habits also keep old cans and what not lying around for a week or more. TheJudge310 22:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Journal?
It was mentioned on nancy Grace tonight that Chris was keeping a journal ever since Eddie died and that it was given to the family (didn't specify which family but I would assume Chris's). Could this have answers to what was happening in the marriage and why wasn't this noted in the original investigation? Will more evidence be coming out since the toxicology results are out? And what about the safebox Nancy reportedly had that had stuff about her life? This needs to be addressed and answered~ (MgTurtle 04:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)).

No it doesn't. She had a safebox with stuff about her life. Big whoop. It's her own shit. Nothing else needs to be investigated. They know who did it, they have no real reason to go through a dead woman's personal shit to please a few fans. DurinsBane87 04:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Though it'd be respectful to not go through their personal stuff, if someone could use it to determine Chris's mindframe leading up to the incident, then maybe it's worth a look. For all intents and purposes, from what I've read the media's little "roid rage" thing was disproven with the toxicology reports, so now they're going to want to find a new motive to blame him with. Mike 13:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Chris's journal had something in it about the medications that he received from Dr. Astin. It was mentioned on Nancy Grace so it should be mentioned here.And since they are still trying to look for any type of motive or whatever, it should have been mentioned that it was investigated, that's all.Every part of the case should be mentioned.And going through Nancy's stuff would just provide a look into their lives.If it was somewhat important or whatever, they wouldn't have mentioned it.(MgTurtle 16:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)).

Wikipedia Poster
Has there been any more info on the guy that posted the death statement 14 hours before the bodies were found? I remember reading an article that his name would be released "early next week" the weekend that he was taken in by the authorities...that was quite some time ago, so what happened with that person? 71.159.131.94 18:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC) That was all cleared up ages ago, his identity was revealed, he issued an apology and we've all forgotten about it now JayKeaton 15:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh? When was this? The last info I saw regarding the poster was: Police have "seized computer equipment from the person responsible for the postings," and have called the confession an "unbelievable hindrance." It has also been reported that "if the person had knowledge of the death before police discovered the body, he or she could face criminal charges." There hasn't been any mention since then, even the Wikinew's most recent article on this is pretty old news. So please, give a link if there has been anything else on this, because there certainly isnt any info about it on wikipedia71.159.131.94 22:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Legacy
I would like to see someone write a proffesional and personal wrap up stlye, a legacy, what Chris will be remembered for, what those in the industry and those who observe the industry proffesionally state.
 * Wikipedia is not a memorial. Rdfox 76 17:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I did not say a memorial, just "Chris's legacy is ........ or just a career summray, wrap up. Several famous people have something like that "so and so was an actor most known for such and such style, and was considered at xyz level, blah blah blah"RBLakes 04:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We already have that. he was widely regarded as one of the most popular and gifted technical professional wrestlers of his generation. That's all we need, and like it or not, hes' most known now for killing his family, not wrestling. -- L augh! 04:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, seriously, let the issue die - no pun intended. Fighting for Justice 05:03, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

"Double murder-suicide" is inaccurate
I oppose the usage of the term "Double murder-suicide". Since "murder-suicide" is hyphenated, it is treated as one term, and thusly each of the actions in it are multiplied by two when the adjective "double" is applied to it. The current term means he murdered twice, then killed himself twice. However, it is technically impossible to commit suicide twice, and the term should be changed to something more appropriate. Such as "Double murder and suicide".
 * First off, please always sign your posts on talk pages by using four tildes ( ~ ), as suggested above the edit window. Secondly, "double murder-suicide" is the term that the local police used in their press conferences.  If it's accurate enough for them, it's accurate enough for Wikipedia.  Rdfox 76 17:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree: the likelihood of a local police in Georgia being experts in English grammar is, shall we say, rather remote, and their use of a particular expression, if incorrect, should not (outside of a direct quotation) bind anyone else to the use of the same expression. If the pedantry bothers you, you may be comforted that the OP made a couple of his/her own mistakes ('thusly' is not a word, and 'each of the actions' is a singular expression, thus the correct for of the verb 'to be' is the first person singular, i.e. 'is', not 'are'), but on the substance he/she is right. As an alternative I would propose 'double murder/suicide', as the expression 'double murder' is acceptable without hyphenation (and should therefore be preferred for the sake of simplicity)and the 'backslash' is generally recognised as denoting an alternative rather than a conjunction, but I shall await alternate views before editing. Lordrosemount 00:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Lordrosemount, he's right!63.66.9.3 15:48, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

GA?
The page has stabilised quite a bit in recent weeks, and I think it's a very good article, so should we perhaps consider giving it a GA run? -- Scorpion0422 17:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I would say it needs quite a bit more work. The randomly interjected names is an issue. We need to briefly explain who some people are like Stu Hart and whoever else. The name is just there, and some people have no idea what it means. Convienence needs to be part of a Good article as well. You can't randomly throw in names with links attached to them, it's inconvient for the average reader and confuses them. We need to write the article like we're talking to people that don't know anything about the guy. --VorangorTheDemon 02:50, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

rajah.com is a bad source
Their article repeatedly claims that no anabolic steroids were found in Benoit's body, which is flat-out wrong. He had massively elevated testosterone levels, and testosterone is an anabolic steroid. Their article also claims it was definitively proven that "roid rage" had nothing to do with the murders, which is also false. The medical examiner said he had no way to determine whether steroids were a factor in the murders. 71.203.209.0 14:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC) Hey there guy, as what I read, the testosterone was given to him becuase of low levels of it in his system because probably of pervious steroid use. That doesn't mean that testosterone was considered a steroid that could have elevated him to murder people. Most males have this produced already in their own body, Benoit or perhaps his son, had issues with it and it was prescribed...we can't say anything more or less until the doctor that is in trouble right now court cases passes to find out if the presciption was legal or not. As it is, even woman get testosterone in their system as well, just not as high as a level. You read probably too much stuff about Floyd the biker to think that it's a anabolic super steroid...as I said, your body naturely has this come from it usually. Testosterone is NOT an "anabolic steriod." If it were, then we would all fail steriod tests. Also, health stores such as The Vitamin Shop and others sell supplements that boost testosterone, and are LEGAL substances.71.159.157.69 10:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course Testosterone is an Anabolic Steroid. It is an anabolic, steroid hormone...nothing to do with failed steroid tests --81.179.119.143 05:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Steroids don't cause you to kill your family over a period of two days. Rage is when you lose control of yourself quickly. Strangling takes several minutes. don't make excuses for the guy. there are many sites besides rajah that say that. rajah is reliable.

Cleaning Up References/Footnotes/Notes
Since this article has a bunch of references, I thought it should be cleaned up with the following:

For an example of it use see The Simpsons Movie.

Mr. C.C. 06:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Attention
Didnt Ric Flair also enter as #1 and win the Royal Rumble? im not sure of the date but i believe it was in the past 2 decades.The juggreserection 08:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Flair entered as #2, not #1, in the 1992 Rumble, damn near causing Bobby Heenan a heart attack. He then went on to win the Rumble and thus his first WWF World Heavyweight Championship.  Interestingly, he still holds the longevity record in terms of time, as Benoit's Rumble win was in a year with 90 second intervals instead of the "proper" two-minute intervals used in 1992; the net result was that Flair's Rumble was about five minutes longer than Benoit's.  Rdfox 76 11:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just as a side note as well, Shawn Michaels was the first individual to enter a Royal Rumble in the #1 position and finish first, not Benoit. — M o e   ε  12:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Though Benoit was the first to enter #1, last more than an hour, and win the Rumble. The year HBK entered first and won, they were using 60 second intervals for some ungodly reason, and the whole match was only about 45 minutes long.  Rdfox 76 14:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Isn't #2 basically the same as #1 anyway? They both start out in the ring so it really doesn't make a difference unless you want to get technical and whatever
 * Yep (see Mr. McMahon and Rey Mysterio). But Flair was #3. Mshake3 00:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Flair actually entered at #3 in the 92 Rumble...not #2. :twocents: 144.139.13.207 15:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)