Talk:Christ in the winepress

Issues
I don't quite know what to say about this. It's always great to see articles on Christian iconography, but the account here contradicts that in the standard work - Schiller, Gertrud, Iconography of Christian Art, Vol. II, 1972 (English trans from German), Lund Humphries, London, ISBN 0853313245 (right at the end) - on several points, and the quotes from the refs given don't seem to support these points. Nor do any of the refs seem to be to a comprehensive account like Schiller's (she gives it 1 1/2 2-column pages). Johnbod (talk) 23:56, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you cite here the most relevant content from Schiller? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * She has several '000 words on the motif, a good deal more than any of your sources I'd imagine. I'll copy the first bit of the article here, bolding what conflicts, in whole or in part, with Schiller:


 * Christ in the winepress or the mystical winepress (Italian: torchio mistico) is a motif in Christian iconography where Christ himself becomes the grapes in the press,[1] which derives from an interpretation of Augustine of the "mystical grapes", an exegesis built on New Testament parable of the True Vine (John 15:1).[2]

The "mystical winepress" is a largely medieval and primarily Catholic motif and is to be distinguished from the "treader of the grapes" motif which became more strongly present in the Protestant Reformation. The apocalyptic biblical motif of Christ treading the grapes in the winepress (e.g. Revelation 19:15, where Christ returns as the victor treading his enemies) is traditionally connected in Protestant exposition with a Messianic interpretation of Old Testament passages such as "Who is this that comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah" (Isaiah 63:1-3).[3]

'''The two motifs are distinct. However the common visual element of Christ and the winepress means that the two motifs are sometimes confused, sometimes contrasted, or otherwise connected.[4]'''

-For example the painting of c. 1108, an early one, which she mentions, has Isaiah with a banderole next to Christ in the winepress. Schiller also has additional aspects of the history not covered in the current article. Johnbod (talk) 04:42, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have added a development section mainly from Schiller (not complete yet) which shows the differences. The article now contradicts itself of course. Johnbod (talk) 15:00, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You might find Timmermann useful, if the google preview is accessible to you - he is briefer than Schiller, but singing from the same hymnbook . Johnbod (talk) 21:55, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

links not used

 * The Psalms as Christian Worship: A Historical Commentary, Ps 8
 * Ross, Topical Dictionary of Med art

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