Talk:Christ myth theory/Archive 2

What a turning off article
I have nothing precise to complain of about this article, no POV issue or anything like that, I just wanted to comment that this article (i'm a mythist) gives me the feeling to agree with a extremely small minority of heretics who believe in something based on nothing. Of course, I want the article to be as NPOV as possible, but it'd be better if the anti-mythicism taste of this article could get lost, I mean I'd like to have an article that shows better the points that mythicism makes (idk however how this could be done precisely) --SuperBleda 21:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and this relates to the unnecessary rebuttal topic above. The point of this article should be to present the Jesus-Myth side with maybe a small section on criticism. It seems to me the proper place for a more balanced view should be the Historicity_of_Jesus article. How many articles on a particular position spends almost equal time refuting it?--Andrew c 02:55, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I have the impression this article generates so much controversy because the Jesus-Myth, if true, would pull the rug from under christianity, and that must be a very scary thought for many. Belvdme 13:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Good thing its not true eh? :D Homestarmy 13:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Regardless of our own POVs, we should still be fair. WP:VERIFY states that we seek verifiabilty, not truth; in other words, reflect what the proponents of the Jesus-Myth are actually saying. While I agree with Homestarmy on truth, I also agree with Andrew c on the point of this article. It helps to understand what people are actually saying, and to avoid straw-man arguments. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalk TCF 15:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Umm, well it does need a decent sized criticism section. Any non-mainstream theory gets that, just take a look at Creation Science. Each arguement doesn't need to be refuted but a section at the bottom is needed to talk about general criticisms and issues with the arguement. Falphin 22:12, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * My suggestions...
 * 1. Explain that only a small minority of historians adhere to the doctrine in the opening paragraph. It should be made clear at the very get go that this is not mainstream.
 * 2. Summarize and get to the point. The arguments aren’t very clear right now.  This is partly due to over criticizing.    Try explaining the argument such as "Some advocates of the Jesus-myth theory, argue that NT stories can be traced to Med. mythologies. " Also, I would suggest having a big section called "Pagan influences on the NT"  where the conclusion of the argument should be made at the beginning, and the rest used as support in sub-sections only if necessary.
 * 3. Don't over criticize, but if rebuttal arguments are made then create a section below the parent section. This will make it much more clearer, because the argument needs to be constructed properly first, and then the rebuttal arguement.  Right now, it seems that every single sentence has to be rebuttled.  Thats all I have for now.  Falphin 22:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalk TCF 11:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

RfC
As stated previously I think we need some outside perspectives so I've listed and RfC. Pansy Brandybuck AKA Sophia Talk  TCF  18:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Can we get this darn page unprotected. It's been stuck for a fortnight with serious historical inaccuracies and absurd arguments. Paul B 09:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Why oh Why is this page still locked? Are we waiting for SOPHIA's RfC, or has no one yet requested that the page be unlocked? Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalk TCF 13:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The RfC won't lock the page - in fact having it locked is makes the RfC pretty pointless as noone can add new stuff - maybe we just have to ask an nice admin to unlock - can it be one we know or must they be uninvolved? Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA SophiaTalk TCF 14:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It has to be someone uninvolved. An involved admin should only do semi-protection and unprotection, as they are for cases of vandalism rather than content dispute. You can make a request at WP:RFPP. AnnH ♫ 14:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks Ann - I've logged a request. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA SophiaTalk TCF 16:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I've unprotected the page per the request on WP:RFPP and the apparent consensus for unprotection here. Please let me know if the problems that necessitated protection occur again. --GraemeL (talk) 16:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I found the RfC request at WP:RFC/REL. Is this it, or is there a more detailed page? Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalk TCF 19:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Didn't see this post sorry. Yes that's the RfC - unlike a user RfC which is pretty convolved an article RfC just seems to be a flag to draw outside parties in to add their knowledge/thoughts. If we go to mediation then that also is pretty drawn out but I don't think we're at that stage (yet!). Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA SophiaTalk TCF 08:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

minority status
The RfC reads, There are disputes on how minority issues dealing with the non existence of Jesus as a real historical figure should be represented and the levels of competence required to be classed a scholar.

Regarding the minority position of the Jesus-Myth among scholars, I found its minority status acknowledged at http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/scholars.html, along with an elaborate hypothesis for why it's still a minority. "For more than 200 years a minority of courageous scholars have dared to question the story of Jesus. Despite the risks of physical assault, professional ruin and social opprobrium, they have seriously doubted the veracity of the gospel saga, have peeled away the layers of fraud and deceit and eventually have challenged the very existence of the godman." The list that follows includes a number of pamphleteers, poets, and former priests and monks among its scholars. (Surely if being a former priest or monk qualifies one as a scholar, being a current priest or monk would similarly qualify one?) But my real point is that even a vocal proponent of the idea admits that it is not broadly accepted in academia, though it believes this to be because of "the risks of physical assault, professional ruin and social opprobrium." Wesley 16:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Maccoby & Spong
From the opening paragraph:
 * The theory, based in part on the lack of extant contemporaneous documents or other historically reliable evidence about his life, has not currently found widespread acceptance among Bible scholars and historians, though in more recent times, few scholars have supported it, such as Hyam Maccoby and John Shelby Spong.

While both Maccoby and Spong certainly have non-traditional opinions regarding Jesus which place them at odds with most scholars, has either one actually supported the "Jesus myth" hypothesis? If they have, can we have a citation? KHM03 (talk) 14:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know about Maccoby, but Spong certainly believes that Jesus was a real historical individual. Like many liberal theologians he dismisses the Virgin Birth, Ressurrection and other miracles - or rather he reinterprets them as mythic, midrashic, symbolic etc. In this sense he is a Christ-myther in Drews's original meaning of the term - that is he believes that the "magic" aspects of the gospels are symbolic stories with a spritual meaning, rather than literal events, and should be accepted as such without invalidating them. But he does not believe that Jesus of Nazareth never existed. Paul B 16:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

That's right...so how is he supportive of the "Jesus myth" hypothesis? KHM03 (talk) 18:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the claim; anyone can feel free to restore it if we find a citation. KHM03 (talk) 18:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Alienus re-inserted it, telling you that you were "out of order" in not tagging it with and giving people time to find a citation. Since you have made a good case for there to be at least doubt about Maccoby and Spong supporting the theory, it seems perfectly reasonable that you made the query here, waited for a response, and then removed the claim, saying that anyone can feel free to restore it if we find a citation. I have therefore removed it again. AnnH ♫ 23:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Years, ago I read a book by Maccoby in which he portrayed Jesus as a Jewish charismatic-apocalyptic Messiah hoping for divine intervention on the Mount of Olives. That hardly sounds "Jesus-myth"-ish to me. (self-professed) Str1977 (smile back) 23:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * KHM03 waited 22 minutes between making the request and making the removal. This is too hasty.  Give people a couple of days to do their research, instead of just deleting their text.  Therefore, I am reverting your removal. Alienus 23:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * 14:02 (UTC) to 18:31 (UTC) comes to four hours and 29 minutes by my calculation. There was also a response before he removed it, agreeing with him about Spong. And now there has been another response that seems to agree with him about Maccoby? But it would still be contrary to WP:AGF to take down temporarily a non-essential part of a sentence which two editors question, which two editors think (based on their knoweledge) to be inaccurate, and which nobody has supported? AnnH ♫ 00:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hastiness aside, Str1977's description sounds more like the Apocalyptic Prophet model a la Albert Schweitzer than the Jesus-Myth model. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalk TCF 23:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I vote give Alienus some time, or whoever "people" is, to find a citation, and tag with in the meantime. At least then it's clear that the sentence seems to have no factual support behind it, rather than simply removing it so people don't realize there are content disputes. Homestarmy 23:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd be perfectly content if, after due consideration, we concluded that these two people are not Jesus myth supporters and therefore remove their names. My only concern is that we give such ideas due consideration instead of rejecting them out of hand. In matters as controversial as this, we have to work extra hard to make the editing process fair and equitable. Alienus 23:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

What's with this ridiculous procedurism? As of now, there is no support for the notion that these two writers support the "Jesus myth" idea. Anyone is free to edit wikipedia, and there's no rule that any possible change has to be discussed ad infinitum on the talk page before it can be done. If somebody finds some information to support the idea that these writers should be included, we can obviously then revisit the issue. But as of now, there is no dissent from the idea that they were inaccurately included. There's no reason not to change it immediately in such an instance. john k 04:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * If in fact there is no evidence, then the sentence will be cut in a day or two. However, by leaving it there for a little longer, with the  tag, we give people a chance to dig up that evidence.  That's the reason we shouldn't remove it immediatelty.  Thank you for understanding. Alienus 04:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

An editor familiar with Spong says the statement is inaccurate about Spong. Another editor familiar with Maccoby says the statement is inaccurate about Maccoby. It does no harm to the article to remove that statement while the probability is that it's inaccurate. And by putting it on the talk page with the promise that it can be replaced if the evidence is found, we are being perfectly fair and giving people a chance to find that evidence. I can't see any reason for insisting that something that's probably inaccurate should stay in the article for a few days, being removed only when people have failed to find evidence. The tag, in my view, is for something that is probably accurate, but that needs a citation. It's not meant to be used as an excuse for leaving a probably-inaccurate claim in an article. Alienus, consider this, if I inserted a claim into the abortion article that women who have had abortions commit suicide at double the rate of other women, and other editors felt that was untrue, and two of them said on the talk page that they had read things that would contradict that claim, and nobody on the talk page had come up with any references that would support it, would you insist that it was "out of line" to remove it, and that WP:AGF required that we should just put a tag on it and then leave it for a few days in order to give me time to dig up sources? There is absolutely no rule that says that dubious claims have to be tagged and left in place for a few days rather than moved to the talk page for discussion. And, in my view, trying to force such a non-existent rule on other editors is compromising the integrity of Wikipedia. AnnH ♫ 07:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia's citation policy says that any portion that is uncited may be removed at any time. Not that it has to be removed, but it may. Of course if everything not directly cited were removed from wikipedia, it would be much much smaller. But there is no mandatory waiting period. Many times a day or two waiting period may be a good idea, but there's also nothing wrong with editing boldly when something looks particularly questionable, as in this case. Wesley 16:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Polycarp quotes
I removed this from the article, from the beginning of a paragraph:
 * The belief that Jesus was not real was so wide spread among early Christians that Polycarp (c 69-155 A.D.), Bishop of Smyrna, lamented that it was the belief of "the great majority" of Christians. As a result, counter arguments sprung up. For example, ...

This appears to be at best a twisting of what Polycarp actually said, and at worst a fabrication. The closest quote I found from Polycarp's letter to the Philippians reads, ''"For whosoever does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is antichrist; " and whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross, is of the devil; and whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts, and says that there is neither a resurrection nor a judgment, he is the first-born of Satan. Wherefore, forsaking the vanity of many, and their false doctrines, let us return to the word which has been handed down to us from the beginning; "watching unto prayer," and persevering in fasting; beseeching in our supplications the all-seeing God "not to lead us into temptation ," as the Lord has said: "The spirit truly is willing, but the flesh is weak."''

In context, Polycarp includes in the "vanity of many" together the beliefs that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh, those who do not confess the "testimony of the cross," and those who deny the resurrection and coming judgment. Depending on the interpretation, the first item could include those who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah in the flesh; the next two categories could include people who thought Jesus was just this guy, but didn't value his death on the cross or who didn't believe he rose from the dead. Even taking them together, those who believe these things are hardly called a "majority of Christians."

Earlier Polycarp writes, "Wherefore, girding up your loins," "serve the Lord in fear" and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and "believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory," and a throne at His right hand. I hope it's clear that the "multitude" isn't necessarily a multitude of Christians, and that what is at issue here is Jesus' resurrection and glory, not his existence.

I trust this justifies removing what I did. Wesley 17:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Basically, any statement about whether or not Jesus "came in the flesh" from early church fathers is almost certainly referring to docetism, not to Jesus' historical existence. john k 19:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * So how should the rest of the statements in the "Background" section be handled? Wesley 06:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest that we note that advocates of the Jesus myth have used a number of quotes by early Church Fathers that are normally taken to be statements against Docetism as statements defending the existence of a historical Jesus, and substantially shorten it. john k 23:28, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

No Criticism Allowed
I thought this [link removed] might be of interest to some of you on this page: Just Thought Id Mention It 11:11, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * (external link edited, as it made this page uneditable) -- Eugene van der Pijll 23:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the double blue page, although I wasn't aware of this discussion forum. Thank you for mentioning it. For the record, User:KHM03 retired from Wikipedia because the personal information revealed about him led to harrassment of his family and colleagues. After the incident was reported, the site removed the personal information, but the harm was already done. This is a matter not of censorship, but of privacy and security. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalk TCF  11:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think doubleblue included any information that the editors hadn't included on their own userpages. I think some are protesting too much. 86.137.36.128 12:18, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Not anymore. They did when the incident was reported. KHM03 did not include a photo or his name on his user page, but doubleblue did until the incident was reported. I don't think it's protesting too much to object to cyberstalking. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalk TCF 18:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

See also meta:Talk:Spam_blacklist. Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalk TCF 03:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The heart of the debate...
is, in fact, not as old as Christianity itself. Docetists did not believe that Jesus was not a historical figure. They believed that Jesus was not human, that his body was an illusion. But it was an illusion seen by specific actual people in an actual time and place - 1st century Judea. It is highly misleading to pretend that docetism was an early version of the Jesus myth. john k 04:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * But that is what the proponents of the Jesus-Myth do which is why it should be mentioned here. This article is not titled Why the Jesus-Myth is wrong or wasn't when I last looked. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA SophiaTalk TCF 11:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Cite sources. It's worked so well in other places. Please, let's not get into another dispute over who is and is not a scholar ;) Proponents should definitely be mentioned here, but see above: "a section at the bottom is needed to talk about general criticisms and issues with the arguement (sic)" --Grigory Deepdelver of BrockenboringTalk TCF 11:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I've never had a problem with calling them authors/minority/etc but the way John K writes above he's arguing with what they are saying not reporting what they say and then putting it in context. A counter response is of course called for to balance the article but I'm just highlighting how it should be done. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA SophiaTalk TCF 12:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

As the Jesus Myth is untrue shouldn't we simply state that in the intro and be done with it? Why bother wasting time with these atheist types? RobSteadman 13:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC) ''Note: This user was blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Robsteadman. --Darth Deskana (talk page) 14:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)''

I was only referring to the material in the first paragraph: the heart of the debate is as old as Christianity itself; even some early Christians who subscribed to a docetic Christology rejected the notion of a corporeal Jesus, though they still accepted his divinity. This is stating, as fact, that the debate goes back to docetism. It is true that people like Freke and Gandy have argued this. But it is blatantly POV to claim as fact that the "heart of the debate is as old as christianity itself." This is a minority opinion rejected by most scholars. I don't have a problem with saying that Freke and Gandy believe this. I do have a problem with the article saying this is true. john k 18:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * So, cite Freke and Gandy. I know SOPHIA has a copy of their book. Is there anything else that is "totally disputed"? (Man, I hate to see that tag on any article). Arch O. La Grigrory   Deepdelver  16:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I just don't think this material should be discussed in the intro at all, and I've removed it. It's cited to Freke and Gandy in the main body of the article, which is fine. john k 16:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The Removed Material
Wikipedia is not a soapbox. A.J.A. 19:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Such huge multi section changes should not happen without ANY discussion at all on the talk pages. With controversial subjects such as this may I suggest you actually propose on the talk page what you wish to so before making sweeping changes. You probably have some valuable points to make but you need to outline specific issues here. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  20:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Sophia. When you say WP is not a soapbox, did you mean to suggest that the removed material was original research, or that it lacked sufficient references, or... ? Wesley 20:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Sophia and Wesley - A.J.A., you're going to need to explain your perspective here and tell why you think all that material should be removed. I happen to agree that some of it (the material about all the authors who don't mention Jesus, in particular) should probably go, but it needs to be hashed out and discussed, not just deleted unilaterally. john k 20:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I mean that the material is polemical rather than encyclopedic and largely consists of generic arguments against Christianity. Looking through the article history, at one point there was a section with arguments in favor of the theory and one with arguments against. Someone took out the arguments against, and then people over time just kept adding objections to Christianity (many of which are unrelated to the specific objection this article covers), to absurd length. A.J.A. 20:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Remember that the article is not about "arguments against Christianity" - it is about arguments against the historical existence of Jesus. I am not a Christian (I'm agnostic and was raised vaguely Jewish) but I believe the arguments which have been made against the historical existence of Jesus are entirely specious.  I agree that the article as it is now is problematic, but it would be better to specify objections than to remove wholesale. john k 20:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Obviously, arguments against the historical existence of Jesus are arguments against Christianity.
 * No, the article is not about arguments against the historical existence of Jesus, it's about one particular such argument, that Jesus was an adaptation of pagan mythical figures. All the other arguments have no bearing, except to extent the article makes the implicit claim that the Christian account is false and therefore that the mythicist one must be right, which is both very biased and a logical fallacy. A.J.A. 21:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's necessarily true to say that this is only one particular such argument - pretty much every argument that's ever been made that Jesus didn't exist as a historical personage tends to include the argument that Jesus was an adaptation of pagan myths. Furthermore, the idea that Jesus never existed has been broadly termed "the Jesus Myth" - that is, it is used more broadly than just to mean the idea that Jesus was based on pagan myths.  I would add that arguments against the historical existence of Jesus are made largely as attacks against Christianity, but they are much more than just attacks on Christianity. john k 04:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I haven't looked at the changes in detail, but I think it's only to be expected that such large changes in a controversial article would be reverted. I'd point out that it's not appropriate to call the changes "vandalism", as TrumpetPower! did in his edit summary. WP:Vandalism says: Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism. Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism at Wikipedia. A.J.A., if you discuss your proposed changes here, you'll probably find some editors will agree with you. AnnH ♫ 21:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * A.J.A has reverted again so I've requested page protection until we get this sorted. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  00:09, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay then, let's discuss it already
I discussed it. It was reverted for not being discussed. Now the most recent reversion gives the reason that I need consensus. That's it -- he won't consent because I don't have consensus. So what, if anything, do you want?

If there a substantive objection? Or will you just keep reverting on the grounds of a social faux pas? A.J.A. 00:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You need to state what you want changed and why or ask others to reference or explain certain specific parts. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  00:09, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * That doesn't make any sense. A.J.A. 00:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Explain the reason for your changes, point by point. If possible, convince other editors. Also, it's always best to cite sources. Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  01:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * That still doesn't make sense. A.J.A. 02:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

When editing controversial articles, it's always best to discuss changes to avoid edit wars with people who may not agree with you. If you want your edits to stick (and not be reverted), you have to convince other people that you are correct. To convince others, you have to answer three questions:


 * 1) What do you want to change?
 * 2) Why do you want to change it?
 * 3) Why should other editors agree with you?

The other guidelines to consider involve Citing reliable sources. Wikipedia relies on Verifiability, not truth. Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  02:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * So I change it. Then it gets reverted because I haven't "discussed" it. So I come here and discuss it. In reply, I'm told to discuss it. So I discuss it some more. In reply, I'm again told to discuss it. So I ask if there's any discussion anyone is willing to have other than telling me to discuss it. The reply is another request to discuss it. I object that this makes no sense. I get a rephrased instruction to discuss it. I reply that it still doesn't make sense. And what do you give me? A longer instructrion to discuss it.


 * You know what? Screw discussion. As soon as I can, I'm reverting back to my version. And if you don't like it, you discuss why.


 * The ball's in your court. A.J.A. 02:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * What discussion? Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  02:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Talk:Jesus-Myth


 * Does anyone say it's not absurdly long, not biased, and not off topic?


 * (Why yes, telling me to discuss the changes before making them is a perfectly reasonble answer to the above question.) A.J.A. 02:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think what everybody is telling you (and many of us are not terribly sympathetic to the article in its present form) is that you need to provide more specifics about what you think needs to be changed and why, and you can't just go and delete half the article with no discussion. john k 04:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Specifically, this should become this, because it's bloated and irrelevant. Maybe later some other stuff should be done, but my version right now is already an improvement. A.J.A. 05:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

As the editor who wants changes you have to be the one to explain why when your edits are contested as in this case (and by quite a few editors). We have al indicated that we can see the article needs work so no one has refused to make any changes but you are trying to make so many at once and change the whole nature of the article that you need to take it bit by bit. Maybe tackle a section at a time.

Note to other editors Could you support my request for page ptotection if you agree it's necessary as I'm concerned at the attitude shown above. We will be force to discuss changes here and it will save a potential edit war/3rr violation mess. Sophia  Gilraen   of Dorthonion  08:26, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I was too late. Your request has already been refused. Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  14:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you have anything to say about the actual content? A.J.A. 14:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you? All you've said so far is that you disagree with a large chunk of it and find it illogical, biased and off-point (but you refuse to give details, and we've asked). That's not far from original research. It's also not far from POV pushing to place your own point of view above those of the cited authors. Also, large-scale unilateral deletions are not far from vandalism. All we've done so far is discuss the need for discussion. AJA, you're the one who wants to make large-scale changes, so in fact the ball is in your court. The whole point of discussion is to build consensus. So far, you seem to be trying to bypass that process. Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  14:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * "All we've done so far is discuss the need for discussion."


 * Exactly. What you haven't done, and give no appearance of ever doing, is actually engage in some discussion.


 * I give reasons for changing the content. You respond with yet more about the need for discussion. So discuss, hypocrit!


 * You say you don't like the article as it stands -- but actually doing something about it is "not far" from all kinds of bad things. So it just has to stay the same. A.J.A. 15:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * "I give reasons for changing the content." Details, please (and not personal POV). Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  15:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Define "personal POV". A.J.A. 15:23, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

AJA, what people are asking you to do is to go through your changes, point by point, and explain your reasons for them. Not merely saying "my version is better", but in what regard and how. Str1977 (smile back) 15:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of changes
I decided to get things started by addressing the introduction. I think AJA's version is in general a more accurate description of the theory, but I also think it's worth mentioning up front that it's based on a paucity of historical sources (or at least the belief that there aren't any). So, is the new intro ok with everyone? (I'm also hoping to illustrate making a small change to one paragraph and listing specific reasons. Suggestions for doing this better are welcome. :-) Wesley 16:49, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I also reinserted the section of arguments against the Jesus Myth. To find it, I sampled different versions of the article's history until I found where it had been removed on March 12 by an anonymous IP, with an edit history comment that something like "For and against sections don't make good articles." There is some truth in the comment, and it looks like at least some of what I just restored had already been integrated into the rest of the article, so there's probably some duplication now that needs cleaning up. However, I think the section's removal probably lost some content, and for this article I think at least having that section to collect some of the counter arguments might make sense. It does a better job of explaining why more scholars haven't bought into the theory. And now I'm going to stop for a while and give others a chance to comment. Wesley 17:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The word "amalgamation" in the intro is a bit clumsy as what is proposed by some is a 1st century Jewish based reworking of the dying resurrecting god made man myth. So they don't lump everything together - just reinterpret the old myth in what was then a modern context. I can't change it at the moment myself as if I understand 3RR the way it's currently being interpreted I'll be in violation. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  17:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * That sounds like some pretty fine hairsplitting, but I don't think I have any real objection. It's a new day, so go ahead and make it better. I would myself, but I'm not quite sure what you're aiming for. Wesley 21:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Good to see things moving
The topic seems to have changed to the actual content.

Now that we're actually discussing (as opposed to talking about discussing):


 * The parts which have been moved to the talk page should not be moved back, sources or no, and some parts now in the article should be removed, because there's already an article on the Historicity of Jesus. Content about the general question belongs there (if it can be sourced, etc.). Maybe it should all be moved to Talk:Historicity of Jesus.


 * My version of the Background/History is preferable.
 * If mainstream scholars believe the debate about "Christ come in the flesh" refers to Docetism, why do we need several quotes devoted to backing up a fringe theory? The citation from 1 John is sufficient to explain what they're talking about. And why an argument in favor of it from un-named proponents? And to examine the argument itself: since it cites John the Baptist, it would have to be shown that he was mentioned by any source which fails to mentions Jesus. I doubt any such source exists -- even the Mandaens believe Jesus was a historical figure.
 * Mine is more concise.
 * Mine removes the Mythicist puffery. E.g., even calling it "scholarship" is POV because quite a few people would dispute that, it calls Doherty "the noted humanist" (noted by whom? for what?) and "a scholar of Ancient History and Classical Languages" (who says he's a scholar as distinct from a pseudo-scholarly crackpot? where are his peer-reviewed publications? is he cited by recognized scholars?) and says he "infused the Jesus Myth theory with fresh vigour" (says who?).
 * One addition my version needs: a little more on Frazier.


 * "Parallels with Mediterranian mystery religions" is badly in need of a rewrite. Tons of unsourced claims, POV language, and plain inaccuracies (e.g., the egregious "...in parallel to Jesus becoming Christ by being baptised by John..."). If you're not willing to just burn it down and start over, can we at least hide it here in Talk until it's presentable?

A.J.A. 03:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey A.J.A., now that you've actually gotten into specifics, I think I largely agree with you. One of the big problems here is that it's not at all clear why there should be separate Jesus-Myth and Historicity of Jesus articles. I don't think this has ever been clearly resolved. john k 07:03, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Have you read any of these books? I'm happy to edit this article and bring it up to scratch but I am not willing to make up for your lack of knowledge of the subject by having to educate you every step of the way. The Historicity of Jesus is about the documents that write about Jesus (or don't when they should in some cases). The Jesus-Myth is aparticular theory that in some cases does not rely on a nonexistant Jesus as some theories accept a living ordinary man who's life was later embelished to form a mythical god type story. Be honest A.J.A. and John K and save me a lot of time - are you both just interested in trashing the theory and cutting this article down to a stub-like rebuttal. If so say now and I'll bow out as I seem to be a lone voice here (ie the only person who has read these books) so I don't stand a chance and I haven't got the time to be research everything only for it to die a death by reverts. Go for the kill quick and clean now and save us all the effort. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  08:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I remember giving The Jesus Puzzle a quick read. I think the way you describe dividing the material between Historicity of Jesus and Jesus-Myth sounds reasonable. As I understand it, most stuff about the actual documents, like the Josephus quotes etc., would be discussed at the Historicity article, while the use of those documents (or lack of documents like you said) to support a Jesus-myth idea would go here. That sounds eminently reasonable, but it may mean some shuffling back and forth between the two to make it work. I wonder if the intro's to both could be clarified to make it clearer what they encompass? Wesley 12:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Please assume good faith, Sophia. I have no idea whether this article accurately summarizes the ideas of writers on the Jesus-myth idea, because, as you have determined, I haven't read any of those books.  The problem with the article is that it presents what it's saying as though it is true, rather than presenting it as though it is the work of specific people who've written on the subject.  We need all these claims to be cited as claims made by specific people, and not claimed as truth by the narrative voice, as they are at present.  And it is not enough to simply present the ideas of Jesus myth people.  We should try to give some understanding of the ways in which their analysis differs from the mainstream analysis, and shouldn't pretend that all opponents of the Jesus myth theory are Biblical inerrantists, which really is a straw man.  I have no idea why I am being accused of being eager to revert here - I have not reverted at all in this business.  Wesley is the one who re-removed large quantities of text (some of which, I will note, I attempted to NPOV).  In terms of the distinction between Historicity of Jesus and this article, I think we need to document the ways in which the term "Jesus myth" is used, and see whether it is simply used as a synonym for the idea that Jesus was not a historical personage (in which case this article ought to be merged with Historicity of Jesus), or whether it is used to mean the idea that Jesus is based on pagan myths, whether or not there was a historical Jesus, in which case we need to do as Wesley suggests. john k 17:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Just to be clear, I didn't remove that chunk of text because of POV problems, but because it lacked any citations. I was attempting to follow the example Sophia set when she remove the 'Arguments Against the Jesus-Myth' section, not because it lacked citations, but because some of the citations it had were poor. At this point I just want the standard for citations in this article to be applied consistently. Wesley 21:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)



Arguments against the Jesus Myth

 * Josephus provides reliable evidence about the historical Jesus. Although most opponents of the Jesus-Myth agree that Christian scribes corrupted the manuscripts containing the Testimonium Flavianum, they point out that many modern scholars believe that the core of the Testimonium is authentic and constitutes a reliable first-century non-Christian reference to the historical Jesus..  The second reference to Jesus, which says that "Jesus called Christ" was the brother of James the Just, in Josephus' Antiquities, is considered authentic by many scholars.  The silence of other contemporary non-Christian sources is attributed to the relative unimportance of the historical Jesus at the time as viewed by Romans, Greeks, and most Jews.


 * Pauline evidence of a historical Jesus. Opponents of the Jesus-Myth claim that the occasional and epistolary nature of Paul’s correspondence are sufficient explanations for the lack detail about the historical Jesus. Unlike the gospels, Paul’s letters were written in response to specific problems unrelated to the details of the life of Jesus.  Moreover, despite their occasional nature, Paul's letters contain a number of references conventionally seen as references to the historical Jesus (See, e.g., Gal. 1:19, 3:16, 4:4, Rom. 1:3, 3:1, 15:8, and 1 Cor. 11:23-25, 15:4). Although mythicists argue that these references are not in fact references to a  historical Jesus, their arguments are dismissed by opponents as based on forced and erroneous translations.


 * The Gospels are ancient biographies and impart at least some historical information about Jesus. Though conceding that the gospels may contain some creativity and midrash, opponents of the Jesus-Myth argue that the gospels are more akin to ancient Graeco-Roman biographies.  (See What Are the Gospels?  A Comparison With Graeco-roman Biography, by Richard A. Burridge).  Although scholars do not agree on the exact nature of this genre, associated works attempted to impart historical information about historical figures, but were not comprehensive and could include legendary developments.  Nevertheless, as ancient biographies, proponents of Jesus' existence believe they contain sufficient historical information to establish his historicity.


 * Not-so-parallel pagan myths. The suggestion of parallels with pagan myths has gained little traction in the academic community.  The Jesus Mysteries has been criticized for heavy reliance on out-dated secondary sources and for confusing the issue of causation (who was borrowing from whom).  Others have questioned the similarity between the dying-and-rising accounts of pagan saviors and those of Jesus in the Gospels.


 * The influence of the Old Testament. The suggestion that similarities to the Hebrew Bible indicates wholesale invention of Jesus and his followers on the part of the Gospel authors has not gained acceptance in the scholarly community.  Although there are many types of midrash, none seem to reflect the theory advocated by Jesus-Myth proponents &mdash; that the Gospel authors invented new characters and situations wholesale according to their understanding of prophecies from the Hebrew Bible.  The closet midrash parallel, the extension or embellishment of stories about characters (such as Moses and Abraham) found in the Hebrew Bible, is considered by some to be inapplicable.  Moreover, there are many examples of ancient Jewish and Christian literature that shaped their stories and accounts according to Hebrew Bible influence, but nevertheless provided historical accounts.  For example, in 1 Maccabees "Judas and his battles are described in terms which remind us of Saul and David and the battles against the Philistines in 1 and 2 Samuel," but 1 Maccabees has nevertheless "won much respect from historians." (John R. Bartlett, The First and Second Books of Maccabees, pages 15-17).


 * I removed the above as it could be an important section but currently the only references are from www.bede.org, one amazon book advert and the only credible link to www.earlychristianwritings.com. As it stands this section is backed up pretty solely by Christopher Price of bede.org whoever he is. I know there are better links out there to counter the Jesus-Myth so lets find them.  Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  17:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Sophia, there are much larger sections remaining in the article that have even fewer citations than these paragraphs you've removed. Are you in favor of applying the standard consistently and also removing those paragraphs until better citations for them can be found? Wesley 17:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a citation needed for the first paragraph of "Paul's presentation of Jesus" and the "Specific arguments of the theory" opening sentence doesn't make it clear who is claiming what so needs to be more accurate. Other than that there seem to be quite a few links to different authors, articles and terms. The other sections in general seem to be clear as to who says what. I will admit I consider www.bede.org as a poor reference site as it is not much more than an anonymous blog in parts and am concerned for the integrity of the article that the only real refutation of the theory comes from there. I know that is not the only critical site out there and relying solely on one source makes the counter arguments seem weak and narrow.


 * What I am not in favour of is cat and mouse games with the material by people who have a very clear POV and are trying to railroad changes. I will find some better links myself for the above or integrate it into the current article to avoid the for/against type article that the anon IP complained of. Although I am sympathetic to the Jesus-Myth myself I know it is a contoversial minority subject and have no issue with it being portrayed as such. I objected to it being reverted to not much more than a stub by A.J.A. as it is a well developed idea with an interesting history. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  17:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There's a lot more uncited there. Try these sections: Notable omissions in contemporary sources (who thinks they're notable?) "Biblical contradictions" and its subsections (who thinks these are irreconcilable contradictions?). While they might appear to be self-evident, the article now reads as though wikipedia is making these arguments. Wesley 18:00, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The Bede site actually notes a bunch of books that deal with arguments against the jesus myth . I'd suggest we look to those books for arguments against Jesus Myth theories. And Wesley is right that the article is full of unsourced pro-Jesus myth comments. john k 18:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The "Biblical contradictions" and "events mentioned only in the bible" section seem to me to be particularly problematic. Most scholars accept that there are contradictions between the Gospels, and accept that events like the Massacre of the innocents or the Census probably didn't happen, but also believe that the Gospels provide sufficient evidence for the existence of Jesus.  It is a straw man to pretend that claims like these are somehow arguments for the Jesus-Myth, when even Christian scholars like Raymond Brown accept most of these critiques. john k 18:17, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * (Edit clash) The sections wesley mention are all subsections of the "Specific arguments of the the theory" I mentioned above. To accurately put forth the tenents of the Jesus-Myth there will always be sentences that read as pro the argument - I don't see how that is to be avoided - or in an NPOV article would want to be avoided. On the whole I would dispute that there is alot of unattributed comments other than those I have already mentioned and most of that is linking which part goes with which theory. Following up the books on bede.org is an excellent idea as the site itself has a very strong POV from (as far as I'm aware) a non notable person so is not a good reference.


 * John K please don't confuse what seems obvious to you with what these authors are proposing - this article is about theories by people who do question these things even if others regard it as straw man. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  18:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Sophia, the sections "specific arguments on the theory" are, for the most part, not sourced to any author of Jesus-Myth theories, and, furthermore, are expressed in unnecessarily POV ways. "The strongest arguments against the existence of Jesus are" - this kind of expression is clearly POV, because it implies that these arguments are strong arguments against the existence of Jesus, when, in fact, most scholars do not believe they are arguments against the existence of Jesus at all.  "A common argument used to make the case againt the existence of Jesus", or something similar but less awkward, would be more NPOV.  I'm not sure what you're saying about me confusing "what seems obvious to me" with "what these authors are proposing".  And using stuff about contradictions within the Bible as "evidence" for the non-existence of Jesus is not just a straw man, it's a blatantly obvious straw man, since nearly any mainstream scholar is willing to admit that there are contradictions within the Gospel accounts.  At the very least, this material needs to be cited before you can start claiming that it represents "theories by people who do question these things", assuming that those people are people other than, say, TrumpetPower!  And if it is put in, it has to be put in in a way which clearly indicates that these same discrepancies are noted and accepted by most mainstream scholars who also accept that Jesus was a historical personage.  Pretty much all this material is arguably OR. john k 20:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I've already agreed that this stuff need to be attributed to particular myth proponents and will start on that as soon as I have a chance (real life does come first!). Pretty much all the arguments below are used in The Jesus Mysteries which I have a copy of but I don't have The Jesus Puzzle which I know is a Jesus- Myth book too so someone else will have to check that one. You may feel they use straw man arguments but they are the arguments the Jesus-Myth school uses whch is why they are quoted. I have, and have never had, any issue with sentences after each section saying what the wider academic view is. There is actually no OR here at all - it is all from Jesus-Myth proponents and a lot of it is correctly attributed but the specific arguments (as I pointed out right from the start of this thread) do need to be sorted into who says what. The fact that mainstream Gospel scholars have argued away the problems with the bible accounts does not mean that others do not/cannot question these problems. The Jesus-Myth proponents feel they have "strong arguments" so these words can be used as long as they are attributed to the correct people and not presented as fact - the article has been through a lot of changes since I last thoroughly read it so I will have to check again for "creeping POV". This is a legitimate article based on an established (although minority) view. It is not a new idea but has recently been popularized by the likes of Freke and Gandy to the extent that in the UK you can buy The Jesus Mysteries in most high street book stores. This does not make it right but it means an article is needed. I have no problem with it being set in context but I will strongly resist turning this article into an aplogetics rebuttal of the Jesus-Myth theory. This article is here to explain the thesis, give the main players and their arguments and to put it into a wider context of mainstream academia showing it's acceptance (or lack of it) and the reasons for that acceptance (or lack of it) - not necessarily in that order. That should meet the NPOV balance required. I will strive to do my homework and make changes as necessary but I'm a bit busy in real life at the moment so it will take me a little time. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  21:42, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

It's fine to state what the arguments of the Jesus Myth proponents are. What's not fine is to imply that their arguments are good, or even that they're relevant. I fully agree with you that an article is needed, and that said article needs to explain the idea. But it shouldn't explain the idea in a contextless way, and should make clear the relationship of the idea to mainstream scholarship. john k 22:49, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * To them their arguments are good and relevent so we can say that they think this - we just have to say that lots of others disagree with them. That's what NPOV is - I repeat - this article is not an OR rebuttal of the Jesus-Myth. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  07:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it should not be. We ought to look at published books which have attempted to rebut the Jesus myth idea.  And the problem is that the article straight out says things like "The strongest argument is such and such."  That's just blatantly POV.  We ought to say things like "One of the arguments most commonly made by Jesus-myth supporters is such and such."  I don't think it's especially necessary to note what they think the strongest arguments are, as that's bound to have a tendency to sound POV. I think it's going to be very apparent that supporters of a theory believe their own arguments to be sound. john k 17:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Material removed by Wesley
I removed the following section because it contains no citations whatsoever, not even to bede.org, infidels.org or published books. Wesley 18:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)



Notable omissions in extant contemporary records
One of the principal arguments made against the historicity of Jesus focuses on the fact that no mention of him or the events of the New Testament can be found in most of the contemporary and near-contemporary records of the day.

Philo (20 BCE - 40 CE)
Philo was a Hellenized Jew who lived in Alexandria, Egypt. He visited the Temple in Jerusalem, and corresponded with family there. He wrote a great many books on religion and philosophy which survive to this day, and mentioned many of his contemporaries. His main theological contribution was the development of the Logos, the "Word" that opens the Gospel of John. Yet Philo not once mentions Jesus, anybody who could be mistaken for Jesus, or any of the events of the New Testament. His last writings come from 40 CE, only a few years after the end of Pontius Pilate's reign, when he was part of an embassy sent by the Alexandrian Jews to the Roman Emperor Caligula.

Plutarch (ca. 46 - 127)
Plutarch wrote, about the same time as Josephus, about contemporary Roman figures, oracles, prophesies, and moral, religious, and spiritual issues. He mentions neither Jesus nor Christianity, although it is known that Christians were active in the Roman Empire by the time he wrote.

Justus
Justus of Tiberias wrote, at the end of the first century, a history of Jewish kings in Galilee. As the Gospels record Jesus as having significant interactions with the Jewish political and religious leaders, as well as the highest-ranking local Roman officials, one might expect Justus to have made mention of those events. His writing has not survived intact, but none of what does exist makes mention of Jesus. Further, no mention is made--especially by early Christian apologists--of such a reference, even by writers who would have had access to his complete works.

Josephus (ca. 37 - ca. 100)
Although all extant texts of Josephus do contain mentions of Jesus, many reject them as later interpolations. For those who reject the authenticity of both the Testamonium Flavanium and the xx.9 reference to James, Josephus would belong on this list. Naturally, those who accept the authenticity of one or the other, in whole or in part, see Josephus as providing evidence for an historical Jesus and thus would object to Josephus's inclusion. As the only first-century non-Christian to perhaps write of Jesus, the two brief mentions to be found in Antiquities of the Jews (written ca. 94) are the subject of often-heated debate.

Others
There are a number of other sources that survive from the period in which it would not have been unreasonable to find mention of Jesus, though in no particular case would one be surprised to find mention of Jesus lacking. However, Jesus is missing from all of them.

These include: Damis, who wrote of Apollonius of Tyana, a philosopher and mystic who was a contemporary with Jesus; Pliny the Elder, who wrote, in 80 CE, a Natural History that mentions hundreds of people, major and minor; Juvenal, Martial, Petronius, and Persius, Roman satirists; Pausanias, whose massive Guide to Greece includes mentions of thousands of names, including minor Jewish figures in Palestine; historians Epictetus and Aelius Aristides, who both recorded events and people in Palestine; and Fronto who, in the second century, scandalized rites about Roman Christians without ever mentioning Jesus.

Other writers and historians of the time who did not mention Jesus include Dio Chrysostom, Aulus Gellius, Lucius Apuleius, Marcus Aurelius, Musonius Rufus, Hierocles of Alexandria, Cassius Maximus Tyrius, Arrian, Appian, Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, Lucius Annaeus Florus, and Marcus Annaeus Lucanus.

Comment: I have found no mention of the 24+ gospels (e.g. The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Judas, etc.) that are currently in existence. The New Testament contains only 4 of these 24+ gospels. John Charles Webb 22:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Biblical contradictions
The Christian Bible is a collection of the majority of documents supporting the historicity of Jesus, and the only reliable sources for details on his life. Those who advocate the theory that Jesus is a myth consider contradictions in the Bible to impeach the credibility of those documents. Those who oppose the theory generally consider the contradictions to be inconsequential and largely the result of the orally-transmitted roots of the documents. A significant minority of Christians hold to the concept of Biblical Inerrancy and assert that contradictions are apparent only and result from human failings to properly interpret the Bible.

The following is a partial listing of claims by skeptics of contradictions in major biographical details of Jesus's life and death. Those who deny the historicity of Jesus would claim that facts such as these should not be in dispute.

Genealogy
Matthew 1:1-16 traces Jesus's lineage from King David's son Solomon through to Joseph's father, Jacob. Luke 3:23-31 traces a completely different lineage from King David's son Nathan to Joseph's father, Heli. Christian apologists traditionally explain this discrepancy by suggesting that one records a patrilineal genealogy while the other a matrilineal one, but both identify different fathers for Joseph and neither mentions Mary. Further, there is no historical precedent for indicating a matrilineal genealogy for a first-century Jewish man, and especially not to establish that man's royal heritage.

Early childhood
According to Matthew 2:13-16, Mary and Joseph fled with the infant Jesus to Egypt in order to escape Herod's slaughtering of "all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under." The family does not return until the end of Herod's reign. In Luke 2:39-40, the holy family returns directly to Nazareth from Bethlehem, traveling to Jerusalem every year for the Passover feast. No mention of any acts of infanticide is made.

The Disciples
The Disciples of Jesus were twelve men personally selected by Jesus and who served as his traveling companions throughout his ministry. They would have come to know each other as well as any close family member.

Matthew 4:18-20 and Mark 4:18-20 both recount the same story of how Jesus selected his first Apostle, Peter, but the stories of Peter's selection from Luke 5:2-11 and John 1:35-42 are completely different. However, many apologetists might argue that Matthew and Mark's accounts just say where Peter was found, that Luke's account goes indepth, that John's talks about how the news of the Messiah was told to Peter, and who knew in Luke that Jesus claimed to be Lord.]

Matthew 10:2 and Mark 3:16-19 both list the same set of Disciples. Luke 6:13-16 omits Thaddaeus and includes Judas son of James in his place. Acts 1:13,26 agrees with Luke but adds that the remaining Disciples chose Matthias to replace Judas Iscariot. John neither provides a list nor indicates their number, though it does mention nine of them by name at various places.

The trial
According to Matthew 26:18-20, 26:57-68, 27:1-2, Mark 14:16-18, 14:53-72, and 15:1, Jesus's initial hearing was at night on the first evening of Passover; in the morning, he was taken to Pontius Pilate. Luke 22:13-15 and 54-66 record the hearing as having taken place in the morning, and in John 18:28 and 19:14 it happened the day before. This is especially significant as the first evening of Passover was and is one of the holiest days of the year for Jews, a day on which conducting business of any kind would be anathema.

In Matthew 26:59-66 and Mark 14:55-64, Jesus is tried by the entire Sanhedrin, the Jewish high court. In Luke 22:66-71, there was no trial, but only an inquiry held by the Sanhedrin. In John 18:13-24, Jesus was never brought before the Sanhedrin at all; Jesus only had private hearings before Annas and Caiphas.

Matthew 27:11-14 reports that Jesus maintained a stoic silence at his hearing before Pilate. According to John 18:33-37, Jesus answered all the charges eloquently and at length.

The chief priests and elders persuade the people to demand the release of Barabbas in Matthew 27:20, whereas in Mark 15:11 only the chief priests are responsible, and in Luke 23:18-23 the people seem to decide for themselves without prompting from leadership.

The Resurrection
Biblical accounts of the resurrection differ on a great number of details of varying significance, including who was at and who went to the tomb, when they arrived, whether nor not the stone covered the tomb, whether or not there was an earthquake, who did what afterwards, how and to whom Jesus made his initial appearances after his resurrection, and the reactions of those he appeared to. The discrepancies are generally attributed to either an understandable confusion on the part of those who witnessed this most extraordinary event, or a sure sign of multiple sources offering creative fictional interpretation of an event they were not witness to themselves.

The Ascension
In both Mark 16:14-19 and Luke 24:50-51, the Ascension takes place the same day as the Resurrection. In Mark, while seated at a table in or near Jerusalem, Jesus commands the Disciples to spread the Gospel and tells them that they may identify themselves to unbelievers by their invulnerability to poison and abilities to heal the sick and then is received into Heaven. In Luke, the Disciples are outdoors at Bethany where Jesus was in the act of blessing them when he was carried up to Heaven.

In Acts 1:9-12, forty days have passed, during which Jesus continued to preach the Gospel. The Disciples are northeast of Bethany, at Mount Olivet. Jesus delivers a brief final message to his Disciples and is taken up and received by a cloud. Two men, clothed in white, appear out of nowhere to tell the Disciples that Jesus will return in the same manner as he was taken.

Matthew contains no mention of the Ascension.

Events only recorded in the Bible
In addition to the numerous contradictions in the Bible's own account of Jesus's life, those who reject the historicity of Jesus consider the numerous spectacular events recorded only in the Bible and nowhere else as irreparably condemning the Bible's reliability as a historical account.

Those who hold to the historicity of Jesus generally, though not universally, acknowledge that the Bible is not to be considered the literal truth, and that it contains many obviously-mythical elements; rather, they consider what follows to be later additions to the core truth of the historical Jesus, in much the same way that a caught fish gets bigger each time in the re-telling. Those who hold that Jesus is a myth see no evidence that any fish was ever caught in the first place.

Star of Bethlehem
Although many explanations have been offered for the Star of Bethlehem, no actual record of any such astronomical phenomenon can be found.

Comment - There is a contemporary discovery of a celestial event that fits all of the elements of Matthew's biblical description of 'The Star'. It does not describe an 'astronomical' event but, rather, an astrological configuration (asterism) that occurs only once in over 40,000,000 years. The astrological solution answers why there was no astronomical/clearly visible phenomenon because the 'star' was visible only in an ancient star chart. The work [] is part of a body of work that earned its author 5 successive nominations for a Templeton Prize in religion and the star chart is easily reproducable with the appropriate software. It appears from the referenced work that the biblical description of The Star of Bethlehem is an astrological allegory written in 'code' (e.g. - 'house' as an element of an ancient astrological chart) that would have meaning to the ancient "wise men" called astrologers. Also, any celestial event that is given an 'interpretation' (a birth, etc.) is within the realm of astrology. Astronomy is the 'science of observation' of celestial bodies. Additionally, there is a Chinese record of a supernova that falls within the biblical timeline (approx. 5 BC). The referenced work also raises the strong possibility that many elements of the birth of Christ, as recorded by the gospels of Matthew and Luke contain significant elements of astrological/astronomical allegory which have, subsequently, been given literal interpretations. References used with author's permission. John Charles Webb 21:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Flight to Egypt
Also as mentioned above, Matthew 2:13-16 records the holy family as having fled to Egypt. Though they may well have remained incognito while they lived there, the Bible says nothing on the matter one way or the other. If they did not keep their identities hidden, it is most likely that Philo, who was living in Alexandria at this time, would have recorded the presence of the prophesied and persecuted future King of the Jews.

Public miracles
The Bible records Jesus as having performed some very public miracles, in front of crowds numbering, in some cases, in the thousands. He healed the sick, blind, and lame; he raised the dead; he walked on water; and he fed multitudes with table scraps. History is replete with people doing such deeds, but every other instance is universally assumed to be mythic fiction.

Public ministry
Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount to a crowd of "multitudes," and the Sermon on the Plain to "great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases." This clearly indicates that Jesus must have been a popular figure known throughout the entire region; yet, no mention is made of any preacher giving such a sermon to such crowds.

The trial
Jesus's trial is notable for what it describes as a great many of the most egregious possible violations of Jewish and Roman law and custom by all officials involved. The trial is said to have taken place during Pesach, one of the holiest holidays for Jews then and now, on which such activities are most strictly forbidden. There was no need for the Jews to appeal to Roman authority for assistance in the trial; they had full authority from the Romans to execute anybody for any reason sanctioned by their own laws. There was even less reason for the Romans to agree to intervene in what would have been to them internecine provincial politics. The behavior of the Sanhedrin, such as spitting on Jesus, would have been just as shocking to people then as would similar action by the members of the United States Supreme Court today. If Pilate had agreed to take the case, he would not have permitted an unruly mob to have remained present, let alone have a say in the trial. While the Romans courts, like all courts, surely freed the guilty and executed the innocent, they never would have publicly declared their intention to do so any more than would any modern court; Pilate's acquiescence in granting the mob Barabbas in exchange for Jesus is incomprehensible. Finally, had Pilate actually acted as described, Rome would have had his head on a platter, figuratively if not literally, for letting a mob dictate his actions as well as for general gross misconduct.

In short, if even one aspect of the trial happened as described, it would have caught the attention--and raised the ire--of a great many important people in the region and beyond. If all of it happened as described, it would have been the most scandalous trial of the millennium.

The crucifixion
While there are undoubtedly many people who were crucified who remain unknown to history, various records of countless crucifixions survive. Romans saw crucifixion as a most ignominious way to die, and, as such, crucifixions often caught the attention of local historians. Sometimes Romans would crucify hundreds of people a day, but they also crucified people singly or in small groups. Josephus records many of these, including that of a Jesus who was the son of a man named Stada, but nobody recorded any crucifixion of a charismatic rebel preacher who could be mistaken for Jesus Christ.

Portents at Jesus's death
The Gospels record ominous portents as having occurred at the time of Jesus's death. As recorded in Matthew 27:45-54 and similarly in the other synoptic Gospels, a three-hour darkness was "over all the land"; the veil of the temple was rent; there was an earthquake; and the graves opened and dead saints "appeared unto many" in Jerusalem.

No eclipse would have been astronomically possible at the time; Pesach, according to the lunar calendar, always is celebrated with the start of the full moon, and eclipses can only happen when the moon is new. Further, no eclipse ever lasts for more than a few minutes--let alone three hours. No account of this most remarkable event, visible from "all the land," can be found outside the Gospels.

Records of major earthquakes from the period are rather comprehensive, yet no recorded earthquake happened at a time when the crucifixion could have happened.

The rending of the veil of the temple would have been a most remarkable occurrence, yet it remained intact until the temple was destroyed in 70 CE.

Had presumably all the graves in the area been opened and a corresponding number of dead saints "appeared unto many" in Jerusalem, it is absolutely certain that those many would have reported the fact, yet none did.

The Resurrected Jesus
Acts 1:3 says that, for forty days after his resurrection, Jesus continued his ministry, yet no extra-Biblical record can be found of the most remarkable fact of a man, very publicly executed, continuing to do for over a month that which got him executed in the first place.

The Ascension
According to Acts 1:9, Jesus Ascended to Heaven from atop Mount Olivet, which would have been in full view of all of Jerusalem. Once more, no account of the Ascension can be found outside of the Bible.

(end of part I removed -- Wesley 18:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC))

Reverts by A.J.A.
A.J.A. has just reverted my edits thus removing references that have been asked for. It also removed wiki link updates I made and reinserted an error by a previous editor stating that Josephus was alive at the same time as Christ. I am struggling to AGF here as it seems accuracy of the article is a side issue to this editor. I will not revert war to reference an article and remove errors. Sophia  Gilraen   of Dorthonion  20:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Beside being a POV revert in its own right, your revert tried to slide your POV back in under cover of a few minor improvements. Nope. A.J.A. 21:10, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The current intro is plain WRONG as you would know if you actually had knowledge of this subject and not just a POV about it. You have not had the decency to redo the wiki links in the references and I can see you solved the Josephus error by just reverting to the stub type article that is obviously your aim for this topic. As for reinserting the background section - there were references there and almost articles start with an introduction section that gives a short precis of the topic. Removal of this should cause more controversy than replacing it. I did not mark my edit as minor and stated clearly in the edit summary that I was adding references. Editing in this trigger happy "revert if you dare to disagree and never mind about the errors" atmosphere is pointless. As to my first revert - if an editor unknown to any page turned up and blanked most of it with his first edit to that page I would consider him a POV vandal and revert. Subsequent interractions with you are only reinforcing my view that first impressions are often correct. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  21:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What exactly is wrong with the intro?


 * As for moving the arguments in favor of the theory to the Talk page, . Moving the arguments against it to Talk because they lack sources while insisting the arguments in favor should stay in the article is hypocritical. A.J.A. 22:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You tell me what's wrong - you're currently calling the shots so I assume you've read the books and are up to date on the subject. I know what changes need to be made to the into statement - have made them and you have reverted them with out explaining why. I can give you references as to why this current intro is wrong but I shouldn't need to if you know your stuff should I? I never had the chance to finish the references before you'd reverted. As to the background section - why does this article not need an intro section? Is that because you see it as a permanent stub? Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  22:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You know perfectly well that most of the change you made was simply reverting to the previous version. A few tweaks don't make that reversion uncontested. If the parts you don't like have to be put on Talk until the references are "finished", the same should go for the parts you do like. A.J.A. 22:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * References were asked for and given. I did not revert to a previous version - I reinserted the background section as to go straight into the "History" section is not the way an article is usually written. The is always (in my experience) a precis/introduction paragraph. The only exception to this that I have seen is when there is a stub article. It is editorial rudeness in the extreme to undo wiki links and other minor edits along with other changes you don't like. You have previously indicated that the removed material should not be replaced even if it is referenced so please answer my previous question - do you wish to see this article as not much more than a stub? Also please change the intro to properly refect the definition of this subject. The actual wording is not important as long as it acurately reflects the topic which it currently does not - the references need to be added in the right places too. I will not edit war on this and you have undone the first part of the changes needed. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  22:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * There is an intro, the deleted content I mentioned above was the stuff which was off-topic to begin with, and no, it's not my job to figure what you want and do it for you. A.J.A. 22:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * A.J.A., slow down. In particular, this edit had comment to the effect that there was no reason for this revert, but the change seems to be mostly for the worse. As Sophia said, your change removed several references, and reverted the intro paragraph to your version, and removed an obviously wrong statement about Josephus. Which intro is better is debatable, but every other part of that edit, I think Sophia's is hands down better, unless you have some very specific objection to the references. (I haven't tried to look any of them up, much less checked their credentials etc. Have you? We should both assume good faith regarding the refs at least until we do.) Wesley 06:12, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Related article.
I just found this one: Bible conspiracy theory. Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  23:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As per my username: "Last one in's a freemason!" Homestarmy 17:45, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been wondering what "Homestarmy" means, but you'll have to explain the link to freemasonry. Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  17:54, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Homestarmy comes from [The Homestarrunner website], and the freemasons are mentioned in the bible conspiracy article. The line I used comes from Strong Bads 150th e-mail. Homestarmy 18:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I read all the info on using the talk page but I don't see the "post a comment" link/button on the discussion page for the Jesus-Myth article. I wanted to leave a note that I edited the title of an external article link but I don't see how to add a new comment. I edited the critique of the Jesus Puzzle to say it is only a critique of two minor points from Doherty's book. ProfessorG 04:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

How many citations are needed?
I haven't looked at this article in a while. I'm sure it all developed gradually and more or less reasonably, but the early sections have gotten to where they read like they were written by a citation-needed maniac. For instance, Frazer's thesis is famous, and it's treated so briefly here that you shouldn't need a special citation. A link to the book in question (The Golden Bough) should be adequate. Interested readers can follow the link to find all the information about editions and scholarship they could want, as well as an external link to an edition of the book itself. Or link to the book directly. I'm all in favor of citations, but this has gotten out of hand. Maestlin 01:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, the article needed a whole lot more citation-needed-s.


 * While adding them, I came across this gem: " veneration ". A.J.A. 02:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The last lot of wikilinks and references I added were reverted by A.J.A. under the pretext that he didn't like another part of the same edit. He didn't have the good manners to put them back either so I am wary of spending anytime on this article as it will just be reverted. Sophia  07:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The scattering of "citation needed" notes is not even; where there is one every sentence or one in the middle of a sentence, it is excessive, whether or not more are needed in other parts of the article. This sort of problem makes Wikipedia look like trash, and it's harder to read the article. Have the regular editors here been seeking outside neutral opinions? Maestlin 20:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Originally the only section left after A.J.A.'s edit was the history one . I placed the citation tags on each point I thought required one to try to find out what sources A.J.A. was using as it bore no resemblance to my knowledge of the subject. Wesley replaced another referenced section thrown out by A.J.A. so I guess A.J.A. is returning the complement. I will confess I am not currently working on this article due to this sort of behavior  and am rather disappointed that this is the only real example I have seen of other editors letting "one of their own" get away with it.  Sophia  20:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * At least no one here is making unsourced statements about tritheism. It's been an odd day. ;) Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  23:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This article makes Wikipedia look like trash. At least now the reader is alerted to the massive problems with the section. And, as is obvious, it's not referenced. A.J.A. 00:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The "docetism" footnote is broken. I suggest using the inline ciation format which would prevent such problems. Shawnc 19:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you people insane? Too many citations needed, thats ridiculous. Use your common sense! --85.76.181.56 16:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I see that all the citation requests have been removed. As an alternate suggestion for how to deal with the problem, I put a "Not verified" template at the top of the article. Such a warning should be understood to apply to essentially the entire article at present. Maestlin 19:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thats better than large amounts of not needed fact templates, which made article unreadable. References and source books are at the bottom of page and warning signs should inform people not to trust everything what theyre reading. Remember that this article is about theory of jesus-myth, not any kind of 100% truth which would need citations. Of course it would be nice if there would be some citations, but not for every sentence. Use your common sense. --Zzzzzzzzzz 02:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Suppporters
John Robertson seems to be conspicuous only by his absence. There must be other absent advocates too. A few supporters are named (mainly in the history section, IIRC). Should we add something more obvious, like a list of notable proponents of the Jesus-myth theory at the end of the article? What about a list of major critics? Maestlin 15:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Early non-Christian references to Jesus
As far as is known at present, only about six or seven early non-Christian references to Jesus appear to exist. This is despite the high degree of literacy in the Roman world, and despite the relatively large number of Roman and Jewish commentators and historians writing in the first century. The paucity of non-Christian evidence is, to advocates of the Jesus Myth theory, an argument from silence that Jesus was a later invention. To critics of the Jesus Myth theory, the silence is attributed to the relative unimportance of the historical Jesus at the time as viewed by Romans, Greeks, and most Jews. Advocates of the Jesus Myth theory counter this response by noting that all the evidence which does exist to support Jesus--mainly, the Gospels--describes a monumental figure, performing wondrous miracles and butting heads with the most prominent figures of the day, not some inconsequential nobody.

Advocates of the Jesus Myth theory point out that the earliest references to Jesus are by Christian writers (in the New Testament and its Apocrypha). Of the few non-Christian references, almost all merely mention the existence of Christians and their belief, rather than explicitly mentioning Jesus as having existed. The most cited example for a non-Christian reference to Jesus is Josephus (37 CE - c. 100 CE), whose Antiquities, written in 93 CE (more than two generations after most Christian scholars date the crucifixion), as preserved in the writings of the Christian apologist Eusebius, contain two references to a Jesus as the founder of a sect.

The first reference, the Testimonium Flavianum, contains content that affirms core religious tenets of Christianity rejected by Judaism and thus is most uncharacteristic of a lifelong Jew such as Josephus. It is not mentioned by second-century Christian authors, though several scholars have proposed that when stripped of the implausible Christian phrases, the core witness to a Jesus as a leader of a sect is reliable. Jospehus was a historian, alive at the time of the alleged Jesus of Nazareth, and yet none of Josephus' many writings ever mentions Jesus except for a passage (the Testimonium Flavianum) considered forged by some, since the original passage does not exist, and no Christian writers prior to early church biship Eusebius ever quote the alleged Josephus Flavius passage.

The second reference, which merely mentions that a person named Jesus was the brother of a person named James who is traditionally identified as James the Just, is also disputed, though it is mostly--though not universally--regarded as significantly more likely to be authentic than the Testamonium. Nevertheless, the Hebrew form of Jesus, a colloquial form of the name Joshua, was a particularly common name at the time, and the second reference provides only Jesus's name, identification as the Christ ("Messiah" or "anointed one"), and relationship to James.

Paul's presentation of Jesus
Several of the epistles of Paul are regarded as not authentic by a majority of scholars, the Pastoral Epistles being singled out as least likely to be genuine by over two thirds. When the authorship of the Pauline epistles is considered, the epistles can be split into two groups - the seven considered by almost everyone to be genuine, against the rest. In this division, the theology of the disputed group seems, in the eyes of a majority of scholars, to be quite distinct from the theology of the seven undisputed letters. For some writers it is almost as if the disputed group were written specifically to counter the group thought to be genuine.

Although there are occasional references in the disputed group to a flesh-and-blood Jesus, the undisputed group contains limited mention of Jesus as a historic figure. Even though Paul's letters are widely regarded as the earliest Christian documents, they contain very few references to Jesus' actual life and ministry, which the later Gospels detail. Opponents of the Jesus Myth theory claim that Paul's letters were written in response to specific problems unrelated to the details of the life of Jesus, and so the occasional and epistolary nature of Paul's correspondence are sufficient explanations for the lack of detail of Jesus' life. Proponents of the Jesus Myth theory note an abundance of missed rhetorical opportunities to reinforce Paul's points by quoting Jesus or citing well-known events in his life that were directly relevant to the topics he was discussing.

Several commentators, from writers whose theories have not received widespread acceptance, such as Earl Doherty, to widely respected academics and experts in the field, such as Harvard professor Elaine Pagels, have argued that Paul's writing should be interpreted as gnosticism. Christianity arose under a heavy Hellenic culture, Paul himself growing up in Tarsus, the centre of one of the major mystery religions of the time, and Pagels and Doherty (and others) believe that Paul's writing should be viewed in the context of the Hellenic culture which formed his background.

Gnosticism, a diverse religion some of whose branches used some Christian names and ideas and which flourished and subsequently died out in the first through fourth centuries, frequently used allegory and metaphor to guide its initiates towards salvation, which Gnosticism viewed as a form of knowledge (gnosis). Many Gnostic groups even regarded Jesus himself as an allegory, rather than historic, and docetism was rife in Gnostic groups. Advocates of the Jesus Myth theory believe that many parts of the New Testament were written as Gnostic documents, and that Paul's writing is a prominent example of Gnosticism in the New Testament. Accordingly, in this interpretation, those references in the undisputed epistles that appear to refer to events on earth, and a physical historic Jesus, should instead be regarded as allegorical metaphors. These interpretations, of for example, , , , , , and , , are regarded by opponents of the Jesus Myth theory as based on forced and erroneous translations.

The influence of the Old Testament
According to a majority of scholars, the synoptic problem - the strong similarities between three of the gospels, is most accurately resolved by the two-source hypothesis, according to which most of the content of Matthew and Luke were copied wholesale from the Gospel of Mark and a lost collection of quotations known as the Q document, with which the Gospel of Thomas is the most similar document of the era. In the small amount of additional material unique to Matthew, amongst the three, Jesus is presented in a way that has strong parallels with significant Old Testament figures, most noticeably Moses, whose birth narrative, and sojourn in the wilderness, Matthew appears to have used as the basis of that of Jesus.

It is widely accepted that the Gospel accounts were influenced by the Old Testament. In particular, many quotations attributed to the Q document, which the Gospels attribute to Jesus, find parallels in several places of the Old Testament. Advocates of the Jesus Myth believe that the gospels are not history but a type of midrash: creative narratives based on the stories, prophecies, and quotes in the Hebrew Bible. In particular, there is no reason to assume that the sayings attributed to Q, a document theoretically devoid of narrative, originated with Jesus, rather than just being a collection of wisdom from several independent sources, such as the Old Testament. As such, advocates of the Jesus Myth theory claim that when the midrashic elements are removed, little to no content remains that could be used to demonstrate the existence of an historical Jesus.

Though conceding that the gospels may contain some creativity and midrash, opponents of the Jesus Myth theory argue that the gospels are more akin to ancient Graeco-Roman biographies. Although scholars do not agree on the exact nature of this genre, associated works attempted to impart historical information about historical figures, but were not comprehensive and could include legendary developments. Nevertheless, as ancient biographies, proponents of Jesus' existence believe they contain sufficient historical information to establish his historicity.

Although there are many types of midrash, the Toledot Yeshu jumps out as being the most similar to the proposal that characters and situations were invented wholesale according to religious dogma and Old Testament prophecy. However, opponents of the Jesus Myth theory have argued that the closest parallels to potential Moses-based embellishment of the Jesus narrative, are inapplicable. Moreover, there are many examples of ancient Jewish and Christian literature that shaped their stories and accounts according to Old Testament influence, but nevertheless provided some historical accounts ; for example, in 1 Maccabees, Judas and his battles are described in terms which parallel those of Saul's and David's battles against the Philistines in 1 and 2 Samuel, but nevertheless 1 Maccabees has a degree of respect amongst historians as having a reasonable degree of historical reliability (John R. Bartlett, The First and Second Books of Maccabees, p. 15-17).

Parallels with Mediterranian mystery religions
Some advocates of the Jesus Myth theory have argued that many aspects of the Gospel stories of Jesus have remarkable parallels with life-death-rebirth gods in the widespread mystery religions prevalent in the hellenic culture amongst which Christianty was born. The central figure of one of the most widespread, Osiris-Dionysus, was consistently localised and deliberately merged with local deities in each area, since it was the mysteries which were imparted that were regarded as important, not the method by which they were taught. In the view of some advocates of the Jesus Myth theory, most prominently Freke and Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries, Jewish mystics adapted their form of Osiris-Dionysus to match prior Jewish heroes like Moses and Joshua, hence creating Jesus.

Several parallels are frequently cited by these advocates, and often appear, somewhat less carefully mixed with more dubious parallels, on internet sites. The most prominently cited and plausible parallels are with Horus and Mithras. Horus was one of the life-death-rebirth deities, and was connected and involved in the resurrection of Osiris, whose Egyptian name (Asar) is very similar to the root of Lazarus. Some versions of the Book of the dead report that Horus fed 5000 with just a few loaves of bread, since he was born and lived at the house of bread (it was a historic capital of Egypt, and grain store), which translated into Hebrew is bethlehem, and was named Annu in Egyptian, which translated into Hebrew is bethany (house of Any/Anu).

In Egyptian myth, Horus gained his authority by being anointed by Anubis, who had his own cult, and was regarded as the main anointer; the anointing made Horus into Horus karast (a religious epithet written in Egyptian documents as HR KRST) - embalmed/anointed Horus - in parallel to Jesus becoming Christ by being baptised by John, who had his own followers, and was especially regarded as a baptiser. Worship of Isis, Horus' mother, was a prominent cult, and the proposal that this is the basis of veneration of Mary, and more particularly Marian Iconography, has some merit.

The suggestion of parallels with such myths, however, has frequently gained little traction in the academic community. It is certainly the case that advocates of the Jesus Myth theory citing the parallels are frequently let down by citing dubious sources, choosing to include even ridiculous or implausible parallels, advocating particular theologies to replace Christianity, and using non standard terms (e.g. anup the baptiser rather than Anubis the anointer/embalmer) which others fail to recognise.

Opponents of the Jesus Myth theory regularly accuse those who advocate the existence of such parallels of confusing the issue of who was borrowing from whom, a charge which was also made in ancient times by prominent early Christians. However, it is notable that, unlike modern opponents, several prominent early Christians, like Irenaeus, actually acknowledged the existence of many parallels, complaining that the earlier religions had copied Christian religion and practices, before Jesus was even born, as some form of diabolically inspired pre-cognitive mockery. For their part, the historic opponents of early Christians wrote that Christians had the same religion and practice as they, but were too stupid to understand it.

In later years, Mithras worship became the most prominent rival to Christianity, and the idea that many Christian practices, including 25th December being Jesus' birth-date, and Sunday being the dedicated day of worship, derived originally from Mithraism is regarded as likely by many mainstream historians. Mithras was a solar deity, and so was seen as being born just after the winter solstice, and the day each week officially dedicated to him by the Roman empire was later renamed the day of the invincible sun, in turn being renamed Sunday; the references in Luke and Matthew, though, point to Jesus being more likely to have been born in April or September, and Saturday was the original day of Christian worship before Constantine I moved it. Parallels between Mithras and the birth-narrative of Luke are also proposed by some advocates of the Jesus myth, since Mithras, as a sun god, was born under the zodiac sign that at that time was known as the stable of Augeas, though these latter parallels are not so supported in the academic community.

When Christianity became the official and only religion in the Roman Empire, many temples of Mithras became Christian churches. Proponents of the Jesus Myth theory regard this as significant since the lack of dissent appears to them to indicate that the religions were so similar that the prior Mithras-worshippers felt that hardly anything significant had occurred.

Supporters of Jesus' historicity point out that even Christian sources acknowledge that the public celebration of Jesus' birth was adopted from the date of the festival of Sol Invictus, and that this has no bearing on the reliability of the Gospels, since they make no claims about the date. Neither do any Christian churches claim that the date for the celebration is anything other than symbolic.

Historiography and methodology
Price and other advocates of the Jesus Myth theory argue that the inconsistencies between the Gospels, birth stories, genealogies, chronologies, and other parts of the narrative makes them worthless as historical documents. According to these authors, the historiography of the Gospels means that they can provide no meaningful historical information about the time Jesus was alleged to have lived, but only about the authors of the Gospels and their own communities.

Although seldom remarked on by New Testament scholars, some advocates of the Jesus Myth theory argue that historians lack any reliable and widely accepted methodology for determining what is historical and what is not. As J. D. Crossan, a well respected scholar of early Christianity, comments, I do not think, after two hundred years of experimentation, that there is any way acceptable in public discourse or scholarly debate, by which you can go directly into the great mound of the Jesus tradition and separate out the historical Jesus layer from all later strata. While this is not an argument that Jesus did not exist any more than it is an argument that the Paul described in Acts, or even Napoleon, did not exist, advocates of the Jesus Myth theory believe it does call into question the results of historical inquiry into Jesus of Nazareth.

Opponents of the theory, including skeptical commentators such as the Jesus Seminar, argue that some reliable information can be extracted from the Gospels if consistent critical methodology is used.


 * Moved to here until it's sourced and made NPOV. A.J.A. 21:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

What's POV about it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.242.147.209 (talk • contribs).

A.J.A., a lot of what you removed is already sourced. That's why I didn't cut these parts before. Why shouldn't at least the sourced parts be put straight back in? Wesley 06:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Wesley we are dealing with a one-trick-pony here. He's read an apologetics book - thinks that is all there is to it and has rewritten the article to reflect this. I do not have all the books mentioned in the old article but I have quite a few and can see I need to get the rest to head off this crusade. I have no idea what happens in situations like this where you have a new editor who has a strong POV - who is quite happy to edit war to push it but has demonstrated that he knows little of the subject. As it stands we have an article that pretty much removes the substance and only leaves criticisms of the theory - bit like what was done to early heretical Christian sects by the first apologetics. Ironic huh? Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  06:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Amazing how good you aren't at determining personal facts about me.


 * You were evidently satisfied with the old version. Or at least, not dissatisfied enough to do much about it. And then you've got the nerve to talk smack about me. Incredible. A.J.A. 06:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The old version had problems and was tagged - we all have real lives and other articles we work on. Not ideal I know but that is the reality of wikipedia. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  07:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Certainly we all have real lives, and should be judged on the edits and comments we actually make, not the ones we don't make. Still, let's try to stay focused on the content of the article. A.J.A., I'll ask once more: any reason why the bits you removed, that do have some kind of sources, shouldn't be put right back in? Wesley 16:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Couple thoughts - I'm a newcomer to the article, but most of the above referenced cut info really looks like it should be kept in. The older cut info should be moved to Historicity of Jesus, IMHO. There seems to be confusion between the two articles, and while I support having both articles, the content doesnt' seem to reflect the differences in the articles. Also, just because the gospels may or may not be reliable as factual historical documents, doesn't seem to support the Jesus-Myth theory. What is needed is research into what ancient documents support the theory, as compared to which ones don't support the historicity of Jesus. I'd structure the article as what the Jesus-Myth is, who supports it and why, and then who are the detractors and why. Just my two cents. Adding to my watch list. -Visorstuff 23:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In the last few days we have been hit by a POV warrior who is obviously offended by this whole subject. Your suggestions are constructive and well reasoned and I would be happy to help you make the changes. At the moment I'm the only one on this page who has read the books and I keep getting reverted to this current stub-linke article. Please look at the history of the page and see what it was like before 28th April. You are right that there was too much crossover and some stuff should go but the point about the documents that don't mention Jesus is made by some Jesus-Myth proponents which is why it is here and should be mentioned. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  07:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Since it's been three days and there have been no objections to putting the most recently cut part back in, I've restored it. If there are places in it that need citations, it would be better to add tags to them, as Sophia has done elsewhere. Still need to look at where and how to restore other parts that were cut. Wesley 16:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks Wesley. I'm going to wait for A.J.A. to wake up before I bother to put all the wikilinks back that he reverted. Sophia   Gilraen   of Dorthonion  17:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Deterring
Perhaps I was a just a trifle harsh in saying "is someone called Hermann Detering, who has published two books including Der Gefälschte Paulus which was translated into english by an admirer, published in a now-defunct journal, and has been posted on the web as The Falsified Paul: Early Christianity in the Twilight[3]." though it is all true (see the ref) and it is common ground that Detering is non-notable. The fact that the best known proponent of a view is utterly marginal with no academic post of significant publications gives a feel for what a "lunatic fringe" this view is. NBeale 11:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's reasonable to indicate Detering's academic background, but I don't think we can simply say that he "appears to have no academic affiliations". If we have a source saying so, that's another matter. EALacey 11:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Please leave this article alone as you obviously are not up to date. The Jesus Myth is a spectrum of ideas so I would love to know how you think you have organised them into 4 distinct groups. The idea that Jesus is a fiction built on near eastern mythology has a modern proponent in Thomas L. Thompson who is well qualified to speak on these issues . The mystical roots of early Christianity are also being explored by the likes of Elaine Pagels as academia studies the Nag Hammadi texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls. To dredge up obscure academics who are obviously on the fringe looks like an apologetics attempt to discredit by association. As predicted the need to refute the theory is being guided by a very limited and biased reading list. Sophia  18:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The classification into four groups was added by an anonymous contributor in December. If it's too schematic, that can't be blamed on anyone who's edited the article since then. EALacey 19:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Sophia. I did not insert these fringe writers, they were there and I tried to contextualise them. Thompson is at least a real academic (however daft his ideas may be) so if you were to add a ref to him it would suggest that this daft theory has at least one academic supporter with relevant qualifications - as opposed to zero. He is of course a bit of a dinosaur, aged 68 and evidently stuck in the past. NBeale 22:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * NBeale reread your post - everything about it states why you should not be editing this article.  Sophia  07:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sophia, your comments to other editors are not being helpful. Please abide by Civility Thanatosimii 17:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

paul : james, brother of our lord
There really isn't much primary source material regarding Jesus. Paul's letters are probably the closest we get, since they were conserved, but it doesn't appear he met Jesus before the crucifixion. Robert Eisenmann, in "James, Brother of Jesus", mentions that thas far as evidence for the existence of Jesus goes, the best piece of evidence is one of Pauls letters, where he refers to the religious leader James as "the brother of our lord". James has a bit more in the way of people writing directly about him, and Paul makes the link from Jesus to James. If you read brother literally, that is.Trishm 12:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That's stretching evidence by quite a bit. I think in a English Common Law court that would be tabula in naufragio, meaning well if you don't have much else, that'll do.  A third-person account really doesn't qualify as a source without corroboration.  What if Paul were perpetrating the myth?  Throughout history that's been true.  Think about Shakespeare's Richard III--almost everything we think we know about him comes from Shakespeare.  Historical facts seem to indicate that he wasn't quite what Shakespeare had indicated, mainly because Shakespeare had an agenda in solidifying Elizabeth's claim to the thrown.  Orangemarlin 18:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you on how slight the evidence is (and I am with you 100% about perpetuating historical myth - I only learned recently that Elizabeth I was by no means a "given" to inherit the throne), but I'm not sure what it is that I've said that you think is being stretched. Is it the existence of James?  Existence of Jesus? Relationship between the two? I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand what you meant.Trishm 03:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Please remember that this page is not for debate, or even strictly speaking discussion, of whether or not Jesus is a mythological character. It's about discussion of how to improve the article, which is or should be if I'm not badly mistaken about scholarly arguments for the hypothesis that Jesus Christ is a mythological character. So please try to frame your posts within that context. Arker 04:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess the question is: Does the idea the a quite possibly historical Jesus is presented by Christianity in such a distorted way (with the groundwork of the distortion laid by Paul) that it can only be considered a myth fit within the scope of this article? This position is taken by Eisenman. He writes that Jesus may have existed, but if so he was an anti-Roman zealot, rather than a peacemaker descended from priestly and kingly lines, which made him important enough to be a threat to the Romans, hence the death by crucifixion, a death used for what we would now call terrorists. Eisenmann asserts that the idea of Christ was more or less fabricated through distortion by Paul resulting in religion which was much more pliable, with a strong anti-Jewish element, and that would not threaten the Roman empire (Paul by his own words was a Roman whose job had been to supress and subvert the Jewish uprisings). Trishm 22:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a very good question. That position has much more support than the pure mythicist position - even for instance the position of the Jesus Seminar approximates this in the distinction between the historical Jesus and the spiritual Christ. Many liberal christians would probably agree with this, or at least not disagree with it. On the other hand, Dougherty for instance, following that conceptual distinction, inverts their developmental timeline, arguing that the spiritual Christ was the earlier conception, and the historical Jesus a later development. It does look, to me, to be well within the scope of the article, both because it is a mythicist position, just a less hardcore one if you will, and because of how it relates to a more hardcore mythicist position such as Dougherty's. I'm not so familiar with some of the other figures mentioned in the article, though, and I'm not sure how all this would relate to them, or not. Anyone? Arker 22:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that most if not all of what you're talking about would come under the scope of Historical Jesus - part of the reason why I dislike the fact that this article was at some point renamed "Jesus as Myth" is that it separates it a bit from the position as a minority, and might be seen as including the mainstream scholarly perspective that certain aspects (greater or lesser) of the christian account being myth, in which case there's not really any point in having this article separate from Historical Jesus. 23:12, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone tell me what this means?
"Since the writing of the torah found in the Septuagint is considered to have been completed between 100-300 years before the birth of Jesus [15] however other books found in the Septuagint are dated much later. [16] "

This is not a sentence. I'm guessing that it originally was but got mangled somehow in edit? What is left there is incoherent, and doesn't appear to add anything worthwhile to the article at first reading. Can anyone explain how to correct it or should I just delete it and clean up the paragraph? Arker 04:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what most of that entire subsection is trying to say. I get the feeling as I do more research that it ultimatly derives from some poorly written anti-Jesus advocacy website, and not actual scholarship. If it ain't cited, I'd say feel free to edit to your heart's content. Thanatosimii 04:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's basically saying that the Torah in the LXX is dated from about 300 BC, whereas the other books were translated over the forthcoming 200 years. I'm at least one of the editors responsible for the nonsense that is currently there. TheologyJohn 10:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's arguing that some of the non-Torah books of the "OT" were probably written/redacted later than the Torah. No big deal. Drop the word "since" from the beginning, and the sentence makes perfect sense. Paul B 11:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, taking a look at the section properly in order to edit it, it became clear that it's actually stating that some scholars suggest that some parts of the LXX were written after both a) Jesus' birth, and b) the gospel accounts. As Matthew 1:23 actually quotes the LXX, the second is CLEARLY false and yet the 'argument' that whatever mythicist presented in that passage is dependent upon the second.  I'd be VERY VERY surprised therefore if any scholar has written that in any kind of academic forum.  When I've been taught these things, the view that's always been presented as general scholarly view is that they were written between around 300BC and 100BC - and that is the one that the source that is quoted presents.


 * That's why my edits (which were reverted by Trencaclocas because I'm allegedly biased and POV, and then reverted back by KillerCh) do I think add to the factual accuracy of the page. I'd like to ask Tencaclocas to stop assuming that everything I write is POV. TheologyJohn 18:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Glad you guys figured it out. I got a headache reading it. Orangemarlin 18:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Consensus
A few questions with a view to developing a consensus.

1) Can we all agree that the article is very poor at present, and needs drastic change to be a good article?

2) Can we all agree that the focus of the article is or should be simply to report, in a neutral NPOV fashion, scholarly work that argues that the Jesus Christ is a mythological character? Not to argue whether or not those theories are true, but simply to report what scholars have argued that he is, and what arguments and evidence they have used to support the hypothesis?

3) Is there any support, or any opposition, to the idea that this article is so bad currently it would benefit from a de novo rewrite?

Arker 05:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * A de novo rewrite is a little harsh. A major, planned reorganization would make this much better. To present a view in a npov fashion I believe the following points are usually in order.
 * Historical background of theory and chronology surrounding development, adaption, and abandonment of certain major points.
 * Current school(s) or scholar(s) supporting the theory and an explanation of their points. Specific objections/objectors do not go here except in the case that they are especially noteable.
 * General support and/or rejection by mainstream scholarship.
 * This article is also so long that much of the content could stand to be moved to more specific articles, specifically those of the specific proponents, and uncited material could probably stand to be removed. Other than this, I believe your first two points are sound. Thanatosimii 06:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I would generally agree with that. A de novo rewrite is extreme. It does look to me like in this case that might be easier though. At any rate, I don't see how the normal pattern of small edits is ever going to improve this article to the point where it's acceptable. It seems like an exercise in turd-polishing, and that just doesn't work.


 * I do like your proposed outline, it looks like a good starting point. Arker 07:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Rewrite or restore and improve. Sophia  18:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This article is so bad that it should be deleted and re-written. The restore, however, is pretty good, though not perfect.  If this is a vote, I'd vote for the restore, and have some new editors (I volunteer) to get it rounded into shape.  This is a very pertinent article, but right now it is a result of a war between literalists and mythicists (well, that's what I see).  it's time to start over!  Orangemarlin 18:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree the restore is not perfect and only saved this copy as it was being ravaged last summer by one of the faithful (watch out for fun if he/she turns up again). I will help when I can but I hope all involved will put aside their POV as much as they can. I got into a situation last time where Chritians would not revert each other even though some agreed my version was better. If I sometimes seem sceptical of our ability to work together harmoniously it's probably the war wounds twinging and for that I apologise. Sophia  18:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure what the best course of action is. I would suggest starting a rewrite article in a sandbox, and then slowly trying to incorporate material from this article. Or else revert this article to something much earlier and relatively clean, and save the present article in a sandbox. And slowly try to incorporate reasonable material. However, it might be too long, so people should keep in mind that some important parts might be spun off to other articles, or subarticles. The most important thing is to decide on a And then go from there. And the theme to decide on is probably the one that agrees with the title. There are already several articles on Jesus as a literal, historical figure. There should be no problem with having the article supposedly about Jesus being a myth actually being about Jesus being a myth. Even people who disagree with that stance should be interested to hear the evidence against him. And I would point out that there is at least one major religious faith that is ambivalent about the literal existence of Jesus, or at least the nature of Jesus. So it is somewhat discriminatory against that major world faith to dismiss their view point, or scholarship that supports their viewpoint. It makes me kind of sick, frankly. They are a minority, but a very very important minority, since two other huge faiths that probably cover more than 50% of the worlds population grew out of them. So lets not be too obnoxious here about other viewpoints.--Filll 18:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Theme
 * outline


 * Which religion are you referring to? Arker 22:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that is pretty obvious. Christianity and Islam both grow out of the third Abrahamic religion, after all. You shouldnt have to ask. I guess one could argue that Jainism and Buddhism and Sikhism grew out of Hinduism, but that accounts for only about 20% of the world population.--Filll 05:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Restore and then work forward from there. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua?!? 19:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You're a pretty nice puppy! Anyways, what's the process to "vote" or whatever. Orangemarlin


 * There aren't any votes, really, the idea is to achieve consensus through rational discussion. On controversial topics that can be difficult of course :( But so far, at least, one seems to be evolving - everyone so far agrees that the article sucks. So perhaps a consensus can be achieved starting from that one and working forward, with a little patience and tolerance. Arker 22:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The best bet is to wait a few days and then just restore and go from there. Then no one can say we didn't discuss it. Expect fireworks though as this article is on quite a few watch lists who bob up as soon as major changes are made but ignore it otherwise. Sophia  21:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Please let's not short-circuit the discussion by doing that precipitously. Thanatosimii has said he doesn't think it's necessary, let's give him time to argue a less drastic solution, if he has one. Arker 22:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey now, some people (like myself) put articles like this on their watchlists because their pertinant to other articles they edit, not necessarily because they like discussing it heavily :/. Homestarmy 21:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The major problem I see with Sophia's restore option is a total lack of inline citations. Furthermore, the revision is little more than a slew of unqualified facts. Some of do pose interesting problems for the literalist. Some of them do not, and would be scoffed at by all scholars, secular and religious alike. Thus I still maintain that it is more important to discuss schools and scholars, and not present one gigantic list of arguments, serious and trivial alike. Additionally, that revision seems rather light on criticism. Since this is the kind of anciliary article in which minority theses can be discussed, it is fine to go at length explaining the position, however the undue weight clause still would state that there should be a serious disclaimer of sorts indicating that most scholars aren't buying this. That would also need to be made clear in the article after a restoration. A fine line has to be walked here. If it comes off too harsh, it will probably rightly so be viewed as a endorsement of the literalist christian view. However, if it comes off too leniently, a layperson might get the idea that scholars are in fact more liberal than they are. The extreme liberals of biblical criticism have gotten a lot of facetime on tv lately, and polls are showing a significant amount of the public at large is coming to believe, not necesarrily that they're right, but that they're the mainstream and every secular scholar believes what Elaine Pagels believes. Phrase this however you want to avoid an endorsement of the Christian view, however it is vital that one does not leave this article with the impression that Dr. Joe Atheist at the public university is necesarrily teaching the same thing. Any evaluation of a minority thesis requires a thorough dissent. Thanatosimii 00:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Any citations present in the article presently shouldn't be so hard to transfer, so I don't think that's a major issue. Past that I agree with you (though the article as it stands seems even worse than her sandbox version.) It is important to discuss this in terms of schools and scholars, absolutely, and the only hard-core mythicist whose position I'm very familiar with is Dougherty, so if I rewrote it myself it would wind up being an article on his position. So, as willing as I am to do part of this, I need help from those familiar with other figures of importance to the article.


 * However, so far as criticism I cannot agree with you at all. There is far too much argumentation on the page, and it's not appropriate. The article does and should clearly state that this is at present a minority position, and provides links to articles which adequately set out the more popular positions, they don't need to be repeated here. I think this urge to interpolate criticisms and rebuttals is one reason that the article is in the sorry shape it is now. Positions that are just nonsense (much if not all of the Osiris section, to start with) should simply be removed from the article, not rebutted. Arker 04:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * A minority opinion of what? The Article is "Jesus as myth" not "Jesus never existed and here's proof you from atheists worldwide."  There are scholars who do think that Jesus was a myth.  I belong to a religion where most adherents don't think Jesus ever existed, or if he did, he was a nice Rabbi in Galilee.  If you're saying that this article is only representing a minority view of people who believe Jesus is a myth, then that definitely violates NPOV.  But if you're saying that "Jesus as myth" is a minority view, sure I'd probably agree, given the number of Christians in the world.  But that's not the point of the article.  If there is a "debate" in an article about the existence of this man, I'm sure the Historicity of Jesus is a perfect place to do.Orangemarlin 19:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, yes, exactly. I touched on that in an earlier comment, I agree it's an issue that needs to be addressed. As it stands the article seems to be generally about what we might call the 'no-historical-basis' position - that does seem to be, at the present time, a minority opinion. However if we take the title on its face, it implies only a much less controversial position, one that is probably the majority opinion among scholars globally, and only controversial in the US and some Muslim countries. Arker 22:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That's sort of what I was getting at. There's nonsense on this page that I'd been advocating checking and probably removing, but I wasn't getting any feedback, so I suggested making a more strenuous objection. Still, although I totally agree with you that the argument point-counterpoint is a terrible idea, I think there does need to be one (and just one) overtly worded paragraph explaining the position of these theses in modern scholarship. And perhaps I'm just being overcautious, however it's in vogue in modern society to believe that the most liberal of scholarship is in fact the mainstream, and articles on wikipedia, perhaps just in my opinion, I think would be wise to try to make it clear succinctly but very firmly that this is an unaccepted view. And from what I've read, the statement doesn't seem to have very much force behind it. Thanatosimii 04:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Am I detecting a consensus? Orangemarlin 01:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a reason for consensus if it puts truth in jeopardy. - Sparky 18:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know what you meant by this statement????? Orangemarlin 19:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Reaching a forced consensus would be burying the truth. The truth is and has been there is no historic proof of Jesus' existence. Stating otherwise is accepting faith as fact. - Sparky 08:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, fair enough, but even ultra-sceptic Bertrand Russell said that, if a statement cannot be conclusively proven or disproven, then the consensus of experts will have to be relied upon and the consensus of biblical scholars clearly is that Jesus existed. I'm sceptical about the miracles but you can't just dismiss expert opinion. --Onias 16:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Will there be a rewrite?
I - for one - do not want to see a majority rules mindset that ignores fact and replaces it with wishful thinking. It doesn't make those in the minority wrong. I would simply want the facts laid bare. If we put this in the sandbox or simply started fresh - I'd rewrite it thus: I think the above will eliminate the POV we see in the article. I repeat I've not seen good faith here or in the article. I will assume it is not there soon. - Sparky 18:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The Theory
 * 2) The facts behind it
 * 3) Links to those who support the theory
 * 4) Links to those who oppose the theory


 * Well, in doing so you will be violating the rules of Wikipedia. See WP:Assume good faith - if there is any plausible way other people could be editing in good faith (even if they are to your mind completely wrong), then you are required to assume that they are editing in good faith.TheologyJohn 22:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I do agree with you about the majority rules mindset, because it could be one group or another who shows more interest in this article. I don't think that Wikipedia is a Democracy, more of a deliberative group that tries to find consensus.  However, I think that your recommendations fall a bit short of what we need.  Here is my analysis:
 * "The Theory"--I don't consider this a theory. It isn't science, it's more of analysis of myths that may have been the foundation of the Jesus myth.
 * "The facts behind it"--I think the article Historicity of Jesus is the place to analyze whether the myth is real or not. The only facts that need to be discussed here is what is the myth and how it may have arisen.  I do not believe that this article should be a discussion of whether this person ever existed or not.
 * Links to support and oppose. Well, again, I'm not so sure.  It really is a discussion of the myth, not whether he existed.  Let me use Noah's Ark as an example.  There is no evidence whatsoever for the myth.  However, as an article that discusses what Noah's Ark is in mythology is perfectly OK (just as an aside, I got beat up pretty badly when I tried to put in a section about the Science of the Ark, and I was told clearly that Noah's Ark isn't science, it's a myth, and to discuss it as science is a bit silly.  Same here.  This isn't a discussion of faith, it is a discussion of how Jesus was a myth and what might support it.  As long as everything is verifiable, and there are links to other articles that discuss Jesus' existence, then that's what the article should be.  Orangemarlin 19:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * So my proposal for a rewrite would be:
 * Introduction--describe the myth
 * Different theories about the myth--relationship to Greek, Armenian, Roman, Celtic, etc. myths. Why a myth like this arose.
 * Links to alternative ideas about Jesus--you know all that Christian stuff.
 * The article could stay NPOV by discussing different ideas about Jesus as a myth. There's no reason to debate whether he is a myth or not.  Leave that to the multitude of other articles that populate this encyclopedia.  Once again, if you think Jesus as myth is a myth, then why waste time in debating it.  It title of the article is "Jesus as myth", and as such, it merely has to discuss that point.  Orangemarlin 19:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I almost agree.  There isn't any reason to have the current huge amounts of argumentation on both side.  There's reason to briefly discuss the most notable points in favour and opposed to the myth, in that that is necessary to understand the subject of the article.  The difference between Noah's arc and this is that Noah's arc is not supposed to be a theory according to the particular discipline (i.e. science), whereas this is supposed to be a theory according to the relevant discipline(s) (history and/or New Testament studies).


 * It's also relevant to explain that it's a minority opinion in scholarly circles, and any notable explanations of that fact among either side. That is a notable fact about the theory.


 * I'm really busy at the moment, and also going away to a conference for a week, so I do want to just comment that I think that the other version is probably superior (though I haven't read it with a fine tooth comb), but I don't see any reason why one can't pick and choose different sections from the two versions.TheologyJohn 01:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree. This isn't a pro-con argumentative work, it's an article on a scholarly theory, albeit a minority one. Discuss what mythecist scholars believe about Jesus, not what we ought to believe about Jesus. But do contain a small section on the dissent, with a "see also, Historicity of Jesus" or whatever page we think is appropriate. Thanatosimii 23:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we might have a consensus...if you count consensus to include 2 editors!!!! However, I'm on board.  It is not a pro-con article, and a very small section on dissent with wikilinks to other articles that discuss Jesus (History of and Historicity).  If we do this, we can have an outstanding, NPOV article.  Now, if we can just keep out the people who think that this article will be the downfall of Christianity, and edit it into nonsense.  Orangemarlin 01:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I do think, though, that to do so NPOV requires that one abstains from too many arguments in favour of the Jesus myth as well. The current state of the article includes far too much of both sides, from my reading of it. TheologyJohn 01:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree John. Remember, the article is about the myth, not about the historicity, which can be found elsewhere.  It can be written in a manner that it merely describes the myth.  The current article is an abomination, so it is obvious we need to start again.  Orangemarlin 03:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The last time I checked NPOV, it looked to me as if you weren't supposed to let the article argue at all. Include other people's arguments – this is fine and proper. However cite them as other people's arguments, and do not let the article argue at all. If you want to make this easily NPOV, prevent the article from criticising or supporting the theory. Quote the critics and supporters, and let them do that. One question that I have, however, is what do you mean when you keep referring to "the myth" like that. This article isn't about myth as in the anthropological term referring to traditional stories which form the moral and cultural background of a civilization, it's using the common parlance of "made up fairy tale." Thus, to advocate a section on "what is the myth," wouldn't you by default have to start with the pov that whatever you're calling myth is indeed myth? I find it hard to believe that NPOVing this article will be easy if we start from that perspective... Thanatosimii 04:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes NPOV confuses me, so I'm not sure I will state that I'm an expert. Let's look at an article that we both might agree is a little out of our comfort zone. Loch Ness Monster Unless you're into cryptozoology, we probably both think that this thing doesn't exist or can be explained by either drunk observers or by a natural phenomenon like a floating log. (I'm going with the drunks.) So if we wrote the article, we'd say, "what a bunch of hooey." Or something meaningful like that. However, the NPOV is merely stating what it is, how many observations were made, and that several expeditions have found squat. So you don't spend a lot of time disproving the article, you just matter of fact describe what it is. The same here. Yes, there should be a small section stating that references other articles about the Historicity of Jesus. But this article, to maintain the NPOV of the article itself, must matter of fact describe the myth. So yes, each article is a POV, but you have to describe that POV with neutrality. A perfect example is the article on Hitler. That article epitomizes a POV, but it has to be written with a NPOV. Another good example, from my perspective, is the Noah's Ark article that I've reference previously. To me, it's a myth. Maybe to you, it's real. The science is against it. But the article is about the myth, not about the science, and to describe the science is just going to destroy the NPOV of what is Noah's Ark. Same here. It's an Article about the myth of Jesus. It's not trying to prove whether it is a myth or not (leave that to other articles that deal with the life of him), it's just describing the myth. I hope I've made myself clear. Orangemarlin 05:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well... sort of clear. I suppose I'll understand better when I see exactly what you mean put into practice. Thanatosimii 14:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I really really haven't got time to do this at the moment but if someone has can they begin to port the inline citations to my sandbox copy and then we can revert to that version and improve from there. Sophia  22:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll help. Can you post the wikilink.  Orangemarlin 22:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Myth
Mythology defined at Wikipedia is not a false hood - speaking from the Wikipedia mythology project the definition of myth on this page needs work, or else, use a different word. Goldenrowley 19:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Please explain what you mean, because it isn't clear to me. This article is describing the myth of Jesus, meaning what myths lead to the Jesus story, and/or how it might be a myth itself.  If you mean a discussion of whether jesus existed or not, I believe that article is in the Historicity of Jesus.  In addition, Myths by their very nature aren't true.  UFO's, the Loch Ness Monster, Yeti, Alien Abductions, Zeus, Jesus, etc. are all myths.  They aren't real.  Orangemarlin 19:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * But they can have a core of reality like King Arthur and Robin Hood - so a myth is something that may or may not have been a real person or occurrence, but which as certainly taken on mythic proportions by being central to some philosophy or religion.


 * Here's the link to the sandbox copy which as I remember avoids these problems User talk:SOPHIA/Jesus-Myth. Sophia  19:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * (To Orange) There are two definitions of mythology, which topics concerning this article have frequently been plauged with fights over. The first partly means, as you note, things that aren't true. The second is "a traditional story or narrative that embodies the belief or beliefs of a group of people,", which is in the warning box of Category:Mythology and Category:Christian mythology. The first is likely the most commonly thought of term for most people, but the second is more subtle. When the term is used for the second meaning in certain cases, such as something like "The Bible, a book of mythology held by adherants of Christianity as the inspired word of God" or something like that, it is technically accurate, as the Bible is indeed a long narrative which embodies the beliefs of Christianity. But, of course, the first definition could gramatically work here, and this is likely to be the first definition someone thinks of. Therefore, someone would probably read the sentence as saying the Bible is full of, as you put it, things which are not true. That has caused some.....problematic debates concerning use of the word in many situations related to religion-related articles in general. Homestarmy 19:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey Orangemarlin, I have a link to what I mean. Sophia and Homestay both capture my research and my thoughts almost exactly. Sophia I havent read your sandbox yet although I will later on.  Goldenrowley 20:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * So why not use a different title? Like Evidence for the nonexistence of Jesus or The ahistorical Jesus or Jesus never existed or Denial of the reality of Jesus or Jesus as invented tradition or Jesus as a prevarication or Jesus as equivocation or something. Something to make it quite clear what the subject is. The problem is, there are at least 2 or more other articles about Jesus being real. There has been a stream of scholarship that extends back a long ways that raises the question of whether Jesus was real, and questions the claim that he ever existed. For a scholar, even a Christian scholar, this article should examine that perspective. A given individual might disagree with some or all of it, but it should be revealed. I looked for 3 or 4 of the main sources that I know of, and they are not in this article. It looks like a very shoddy job. And I would also note, that for the 3 billion people on the planet who do not view Jesus as a prophet or a god etc (Buddhists, Hindus, Jainists, Shintoists, Animists, Sikhs, etc) and JEWS (lets not forget Jesus was supposedly a Jew and it is a prime part of Christianity that Jews are the CHOSEN people lets not forget), it is sort of offensive to use this venue as a platform to bombard them with evangelizing BS. Frankly, it makes me sick to see it. It is completely aggressive, and it is a major reason that most of the rest of the world HATES Europeans with their aggressive proselytizing tactics. And the other group that reveres Jesus, the Muslims, are not much better, frankly, in that regard. So in light of that, can we not in a global encyclopedia, have one article that lays out this scholarship in a neutral way, even if it is a minority POV (although frankly, with over 50% of the world's population not revering Jesus, it is not so much of a minority).--Filll 23:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Based on this discussion, we need to propose a title and introduction that lays out exactly what we're speaking about. What I think it shouldn't be, and still be NPOV, is a discussion of whether Jesus existed or not. Other articles carry that discussion in much better detail. What I think it should be, and again retain NPOV, is an article about how myths may have lead to a possible Jesus myth. I don't think Jesus existed, but that isn't the goal of this article. Orangemarlin 02:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

So OM, look at some of the references I found. A couple are videos so easy to digest (below).--Filll 02:16, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sandbox version
I note that although it's been mentioned a few times, we haven't had much of a discussion on whether to almost entirely replace this article with Sophia's saved sandbox version. I wonder whether it might be possible to have a proper discussion about the merits and otherwise of both, to see whether this kind of replacement might be better.

I guess it's best if I give my two cents first. I think that the sandbox version is superior for several reasons. Primarily, it's not so concerned with arguing about whether it's right or not, but instead describing the theory and it's various manifestations historically. Additionally, the argument, such as it is, is of a significantly superior quality - and thus, I would assume, closer to the actual arguments used by competent proponents of the theory. (The only exception to that is the bit about contradictions in the biblical account, which seems to me to have little bearing on whether Jesus existed, only on the doctrine of inerrancy. I would therefore be surprised if scholarly proponents of the theory actually use that argument at all - it sounds more like something that might come off an atheist website.)

I guess I would, however, like to see a short section on mainstream academic reception of the theory - however, I think a rough draft to start with could be easily inserted (though then edited substantially afterwards). I guess a rough draft of that could consist simply of the current criticism section (although that would want to be modified over time quite substantially), and a comment at the beginning - probably using the two quotes used in the introduction to the article at present (i.e. saying it's a very small minority position among historians and scholars of all faiths and none, but that at least one Jesus-Myth proponent has claimed that this is as a result of Christian religious bias and peer pressure). TheologyJohn 22:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Does this include atheist scholars? Hindu scholars? Buddhist scholars? I am sorry, it just sounds like a fairly doubtful claim to make.--Filll 23:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... depends how you interpret my statement. I suspect there aren't many Hindu/Buddhist Jesus historians, but of those faiths or none which do have relevant historians among their number (which include atheism and Judaism, at the least), Jesus-Myth proponents are extremely rare among the scholars of that religion - by a long long way.  There is, of course, a lot of debate about exactly who Jesus was, if he isn't entirely a myth (and those of non-Christian persuasion would of course not have a *Christian* view of him as a historical figure, insofar as that's a meaningful statement), but his historical existence is pretty much taken for granted.  It's so much the consensus position that I studied these questions at a secular university, and I've yet to find a single reference to the Jesus myth position in any of my standard textbooks (although I've looked quite hard.)  It really is a minority opinion.


 * I'm trying hard to find the lengthy discussions on this topic on the various archives of other Jesus pages, but struggling to find them. Apparently, though, at one point they spanned nine archive pages.  Hopefully I'll find them by tomorrow, but I've got a lot on then, so to be honest I somewhat doubt it.TheologyJohn 23:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok so let me ask. Is Richard Carrier (currently a PhD candidate I guess) unreliable or a nut? I guess some people think Kersey Graves was pretty sloppy How unreasonable is ? Is Godfrey Higgins a nut and completely discredited? I guess is not reliable? What do you think of this video? What about the lack of mention in the Josephus histories and related problems? I personally have a bias to believe Jesus did exist, although I am not positive about his nature (although obviously lots of religious sects were not either, since they would kill each other over these disagreements). However, I think that even if this is a crazy fringe group, lets present their claims and arguments, and the response of the scholars to them. It is quite interesting.--Filll 00:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * None of those seem to count as scholars to me, though. I don't dispute either that there are a variety of non-scholars who promote the theory, nor that the theory used to be more popular in the past.  I'd expect a scholar to be demonstrated by being someone either with a PhD in an academic teaching/research position at a university (or who used to do so), or who regularly writes to relevant academic journals to such an extent that they'd be recognised as of sufficient quality by those who are.  The list you gave me is simply a list of popular-level sources written by non-scholars.  It seems that Doherty himself has admitted it - he's stated that Van Voorst is quite right in saying that “mainstream scholarship today finds it unimportant” - and indeed he comments that only "over one hundred books and essays" (presumably meaning scholarly ones, since otherwise it's a major understatement) over the past two hundred years have suggested it - given how many books or essays (presumably meaning scholarly ones, i.e. the type written in journals etc, rather than undergraduate essays) are written.  Given that at least thousands, if not tens of thousands, of comparable books and essays assuming Jesus' existence will have been written in the past decade alone, this really is a minor position.


 * I'm not that interested in discussing whether or not the myth is true on these pages. I do agree with you, however, that the page should represent their claims and (to some extent) their arguments, alongside the scholarly response to them.  (I'm not that interested in this question, though - I would never have started editing this page if it wasn't so atrocious at present.  I do hope to be able to go away soon, too - especially if this page is replaced with the sandbox version)  TheologyJohn 00:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I have bitten the bullet and reverted - I'll spend some time over the weekend sorting out the citations but would sure appreciate some help. I have made the edit summary of the revert very plain so the previous version is easy to find in the history. Hope everyone is ok with this but it seemed like after a fe weeks of talking we all felt we had a better chance of making a good article starting from the previous version. Sophia  08:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * ......and immediately undone by someone who has not bothered to "see talk page" or contribute. I give up - help needed guys. Sophia  08:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * See the discussion here . This will always the be the problem with wikipedia when someone substitutes "feelings" for research and reading. I have only small sections of time to devote to this and gave up before because of the tide of assumptions and basic ignorance of the subject that I needed to counter everytime I made an edit. If someone else has more time then great - go for it and I'll help where I can. I have a lot of the acaemic books such as Allegro, Pagels and Thompson on my book shelves so if you need quotes or page numbers then ask away either here or on my talk page. Sophia  09:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think that we should ignore his thoughts on the matter - judging by the info on his user page, it's very likely that he's got a lot to contribute. He's Jewish, which makes it substantially less likely to my mind that he'll have any bias on either side.  Furthermore, he is an admin on wikipedia - although that isn't supposed to indicate a special status or higher plane of user (aside from the ability to use admin powers), it does indicate that he has been considered trustworthy and reliable by the wider wikipedian community, based upon his edits over a long period of time.  His thoughts should not be easily dismissed on this topic, where it seems that so many people on both sides have strong opinions and feelings.  (I don't think I agree with him, mind - though I haven't thought about it enough.) TheologyJohn 12:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * In case you're wondering about the inherent bias of Jews in this article let me propose a thought. If Jesus is a myth, and if Jesus were an invention of Paul or whomever to create a church separate from the Jews, then a whole lot of Jews were killed in the name of a false prophet followed by Christians.  Of course, a whole lot of Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, and whoever else, died at the hands of one Christian sect or another.  So, we can be unbiased, but once proof is made that Jesus really didn't exist or is a myth, you better hope that every Jew in the world doesn't take the bible literally and extract a lot of "eyes for eyes" because payback is not going to be fun.  Orangemarlin 16:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * What thoughts? Other than the revert I can find no evidence in his edit history or the history of these pages of work on this or related subjects. If he wants to chip in now then great but I don't think it is being dismissive to not expect great things from someone who does not know the subject and reacted purely to the character count on my revert without knowing that most of what I removed is repeated in other articles. Sophia  13:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * He apparently did not read it. He just did not like the idea of losing all those references and all that material, which I can understand. This is what can make Wikipedia so difficult to deal with sometimes.--Filll 14:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I was bold and reverted back to the Sandbox version.  The four or five people who care about this article cared enough to discuss it at length then make the decision.  Even though he is an administrator, I don't believe that he can go against the thoughts of numerous editors.  Let him join the discussion if he's so inclined.  We'll move references and such as necessary, but the current version is infinitely better.Orangemarlin 16:28, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I finally read it through
I realized I had never read the entire article, even though I had skimmed it. I read it and in many places it is not horrible. In other spots it badly needs references, and some places sure have the appearance of O.R., although I am not a scholar in this area. My other complaint is that it does not include all the references that I seem to have run across, although those are admittedly nonscholarly, they are an important part of the history of denial. I think it has some good information in it and was quite interesting. I should read the previous version as well. I am wondering if we can just rework a couple of bad sections to start.--Filll 15:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Some of it is ok but a lot of it is way off track and the overall article does not represent the field as I know it. There is loads of duplication of other articles rather than summaries and I do get the feeling that some of the really wacky stuff is here to discredit the academic stuff. The opening is not clear or well written and misleads the reader. The history of the idea is again very misleading and plain wrong in parts. The egyptian stuff is duplicated and is way to long for undue weight. Also the criticism of the theory is also wrong and extremely misleading. I genuinely don't know where to begin with it and I thought we had all agreed that it was going to take more than tinkering to put it right. If people are now pulling back from that position then fine - wiki is a collaborative process but it's a shame to stick with a very poor article for fear of "being bold". Sophia  16:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I wasn't afraid to be bold!!!!! Orangemarlin 16:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm bad with images, but I think we need to carry images over. Orangemarlin 16:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not mind starting over from the earlier version. I just think we should rescue the appropriate bits from the deleted version that seem appropriate. We should make sure that all material is heavily referenced, since I felt sort of cheated when I read the deleted version, I felt huge sections were unreferenced. All kinds of interesting stuff, and no references? I will note that this present version's introduction reads much better than the deleted version's introduction.--Filll 16:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I reverted, and it looks like a lot of good people are doing what you suggested. Sometimes  Wikipedia is wonderful!!!!  Orangemarlin 18:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

no peer reviewed work published?
This is a bit hard to believe, since the theory has been around almost 2000 years. Surely there are SOME????--Filll 16:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Based on absolutely nothing concrete, I'd guess no one dares take this on because it would destroy the belief set of billions of people. Christians would rather read that the Kings of France descended from Mary Magdalene's baby who was the offspring of Jesus.  Even now, watch the fundies attack this article once again, but this time a lot of good editors are involved.  Orangemarlin 18:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * To more seriously respond to your question, wouldn't most works on this area be of the speculative nature? Orangemarlin 18:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe. But I still find it hard to believe that in 2 or 300 years there is not one publication in a peer-reviewed journal about this.--Filll 18:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Remember that it's less than 200 years since Jean-François Champollion had to stop excavating an Egytptian tomb because his work was funded by the Vatican and he was told to cover up anything that showed the bible to be in error. What he had found were hieroglyphs that showed that Noah's flood had not happened when the church said it did, as life in Egypt was carrying on as normal when the bible said it should be under water. Sophia  18:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I used to accuse the LDS church of covering up its past, because, honestly, a bunch of gold plates in Palmyra, NY? Then I found out that Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, and Jews cover up the past.  The one reason I remain Jewish is that it has (mostly, not everywhere) reconciled the past with its faith.  It's more interested in its history and its faith, rather than in a lot of stuff.  There was a  Catholic priest who taught a course in Religion that I took in college--he used to say, don't let Catholicism get in the way of being a good Catholic.  Orangemarlin 19:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, I don't really care about the LDS church one way or another, other than lumping them in with all Christian sects (and please, from my vantage point Baptists, Catholics, Mormons and jews for jesus are all the same). They all rely upon specious myths and they all work hard to suppress any criticism of their myth.  Orangemarlin 20:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Most fundamentalists would benefit tremendously from learning a bit about the history of their own faith. And even more from more knowledge about all religions in general.--Filll 19:22, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The "no peer-reviewed literature" comment seems a bit misleading. It seems to suggest that there are some sort of "scientific" Christian journals out there in which "scientific" Christians publish their work. Which journals would a "Jesus as myth" paper have to appear in for it to be considered as "peer-reviewed"? Are we talking about archeology journals? If so, are there any “peer-reviewed” archeological papers which show evidence of Jesus as real historical figure? - Big Brother 1984 00:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Some suggestions

 * 1) Can we archive a lot of this discussion and start with a clean slate (like we did with the article itself)?  I think we should retain the discussions that start with the revert to this version.
 * 2) As in the Evolution article, we should but a warning at the top saying "Read the Archives before you repeat yourself."
 * 3) Also at the top, let's define the rules here.  This article is not about the Historicity of Jesus.  It is about myths that may have lead to an allegorical Jesus story, and that NPOV is not to critique whether Jesus was a myth or not, but what may have been stories (verifiable, if possible) that lead to the story.
 * 4) Finally, add the same warnings about civility and stuff.

There might be some other ideas, but those are mine. Orangemarlin 19:56, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * 1 and 4 sound great. I disagree with 2, though, because I think it's unfair to expect a new editor to read such an enormous amount of material that is irrelevant to the current article - if specific issues are worth reading up on, it might be wise to recommend those specific ones, but reading all of this is somewhat unfair.


 * As for three, I disagree - the article in its current form is not about myths - it barely covers "myths that may have lead to an allegorical Jesus story", but consists largely of the history of the myth, and various arguments presented by the myth. WP:NPOV is to cover all notable information relating to the theory, without assigning undue weight to any.  That includes any published literature considered reliable for the purposes of wikipedia, whether it supports or opposes the myth.TheologyJohn 20:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your comments. With regards to #2, you should look at the Talk:Evolution site--they archive according to topic, and frankly, I did read a lot of the stuff, just to catch up.  It was fascinating, as I assume this discussion will be.  As for #3, please understand that I was throwing up a proposal, so that we can get to a consensus on the overall direction of this article.  As for undue weight, remember it does not mean that every theory has to be placed in the article, it means that the ones that have the most research and study might have to get the most space.  I do appreciate your comments, so lets' see if we can improve this article.  Orangemarlin 22:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... archiving according to topic might be workable, but to be honest my guess is still that so much of it is irrelevant to the article as it now stands that I'm not sure even that I agree with.


 * Thanks for appreciating my comments. :) I do appreciate your contributions to this article, too.


 * I just want to say I've got a really busy week ahead, and I'm about to go to bed, so I'm afraid I don't really have time to respond to your comments. I do think, though, that all content relevant to an encyclopedia - including notable arguments for and against (given appropriate weight according to the weight of published literature - given the fact that mainstream scholarship regards the question as settled, that'll probably lead to greater arguments pro the myth as other scholars don't bother with it.)  But I don't have time really to think properly about your comments right now, to be honest - sorry!


 * It's a shame that I'm having such a busy week just when we were beginning to get somewhere on this article! TheologyJohn 00:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Lead paragraph
Need clarification of this edit as it misrepresents the spectrum of theories which includes those that are not hung up on whether a guy called Jesus lived at that time (Josephus mentions 19) but on how much of the life of this man has been mythicized. Sophia 21:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that is a good point. We do not care about ANY Jesus, just the one in the Gospels. Another concern of mine is the English. To be honest, both of them could stand some improving.--Filll 21:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You mean Jesus my gardner is NOT a myth? OK, I know, I'm being silly.  Orangemarlin 22:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Does he use Miracle-gro? Sophia  22:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh GROAN. LMAO. Orangemarlin 23:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I wasn't sure how to word that edit. I see your point re that, and was quite unsure about how to write it as I edited; how about "Jesus of the gospels did not exist", or something like that.  I think it's important that we maintain a distinction there between the Jesus-myth theory, and milder skepticism towards the gospel accounts, various forms of which are very much the dominant position within NT studies.  Perhaps the gospel accounts are "entirely inaccurate", or "the historical Jesus is irretrievable" or something of that kind might better encapsulate the spectrum. TheologyJohn 00:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not an easy one so maybe just mulling it over for a day or two would be best. Sophia  00:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Not really back - away for a week with only small amount of time near computers - but did wonder whether we could pinch this paragraph from the old article:


 * Jesus as myth or The Jesus Myth is a loose collection of ideas that have in common the central idea that Jesus of Christian belief did not exist as a concrete human historical personage. While generally associated with a skeptical position on the existence of Jesus as an actual historical figure, there is also a minority of modern gnostic Christians who hold that Jesus is a myth. Regardless of their actual view on the existence of Jesus, mythicists in general view the Jesus narrative in and out of the New Testament as constructed fictions.


 * I think that represents the field better than the current one, even if it words things in an unnecessarily difficult way sometimes.TheologyJohn 17:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The intro is appalling - clearly written with a christian POV - surely this needs to be changed as a matter of urganecy? 86.144.7.3 07:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with the introduction except that it's a little short. The sentance I gather you take issue with, that there is no peer reviewed literature and that it hasn't found acceptance, is true and cited. If you don't like that, change the world, don't change wikipedia. Thanatosimii 17:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit clash)It's true that the current intro misrepresents the field, and as I understand it the objection to my edit was weaker than the strong pro Christian bias that it now shows. I often find that Christians try to reduce this to a black and white argument about whether Jesus did or didn't exist as they find this easier to argue. Since this aarticle is supposed to be about the myths it should not really lead with the Christian view. Any suggestions for a reword? Sophia  18:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * reason I tried to clarify myth last night is myth has 5-6 definitions, and 75 percent of the definitions hold that myths are core truths, only 25 percent hold they are false or about falsities. If you cannot clarify that up front, peoplee will be confused. In addition, maybe you should put the theory name in quotes as if it is not your idea to call it a myth, thats just what the propoents say, i.e like this: i.e.  like this: The "Jesus as myth" theory... Goldenrowley

Excellent point. Most scholars agree that there are many mythic elements in the gospels. The only question here is how much  of the story is myth. Just because the story of Santa Claus is based on a real-life 4th century priest, that does not stop us from calling Santa Claus a myth. Likewise, even if the mythic Jesus we see in the bible was based on a real-life historical figure, that would not change the fact that the Jesus described in the bible is overwhelmingly mythic. - Big Brother 1984 00:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I am afraid you are mistaken as to what most scholars think... Thanatosimii 00:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually what I am trying to say is the word "myth" is very ambiguous word.Goldenrowley 02:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you suggesting that most scholars believe that Jesus literally walked on water, literally hung out with Satan in the wilderness, literally could produce wine by magical means, and literally could cure leprosy with a touch of his hands? -- Big Brother 1984 02:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, but that's not (at least as far as I can determine) exactly the meaning of myth being used in the context of this article. Thanatosimii 22:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the whole point of using the word "myth" is to exploit its ambiguities. The spectrum of theories cover from: no guy called Jesus being anywhere near there at the time and it all being pinched from other religions, to there being a man called Jesus (possibly a messiah claimant) who's life was turned into mythology either by cultural osmosis or by design to create a religion to contol the masses. This is the only article that discusses these ideas so they all need to be here. To create a spectrum of articles covering the spectrum of ideas would just create a load of POV forks. I know the biggest problem with this is that the Christian editors are nervous of allowing the undisputably scholarly debate about the New Testament disparities anywhere near the hated "what if it was all made up" crew but quite honestly tough. I'm tired of slanting things so as not to offend. They throw the lack of scholarship back at us but I can understand why there is so little judging by the hoops we have to jump through just to state the obvious. Sophia  11:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

the lead paragraph is broken. This is *not* the historicity of Jesus article. If you want to claim that doubts on the historicity of Jesus are unfounded, do it there not here. This article is supposed to address mythic elements in the narrative in the gospels, not discuss their historical accuracy. dab (𒁳) 16:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The two are going to overlap significantly, though. If someone makes an argument that some element from the gospel narratives is indeed from a preexisting myth, that by nature addresses the historicity of the narrative and thus the man. Thanatosimii 16:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Mithraea becoming churches
I've removed this paragraph from "Parallels with Mediterranian mystery religions":


 * When Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, many temples of Mithras became Christian churches. Proponents of the Jesus Myth theory regard this as significant since the lack of dissent appears to them to indicate that the religions were so similar that the prior Mithras-worshippers felt that hardly anything significant had occurred.

I'm aware that some churches were built on top of former Mithraea (e.g., Santa Prisca), but I don't believe that the Mithraea were simply converted as this implies. (Since Mithraea tended to be small and underground, they wouldn't have been very suitable.) And I don't see how this replacement indicates "lack of dissent" from Mithraists; in the case of Santa Prisca the Mithraic artifacts were destroyed by Christians, which suggests that worshippers might have felt something "significant" had occurred.

If someone can find an author who argues that conversion of Mithraea indicates common origins for Mithraism and Christianity, then that should be mentioned in the article. But in the absence of a citation, and with the current paragraph's dubious factual accuracy, I considered it justified to remove it for now. EALacey 19:02, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The Basilica di San Clemente still contains its original mithraeum in tact. Vatican Hill used to contain mithraeum until the temple was seized by Christians in 376 CE. A Christian shrine to archangel Michael in Monte Gargano was originally a Mithrea. The basilica in Santa Prisca was built over an old temple to Mithras as well. I can go on and on. Beneath many Christian churches you can find a cave or a crypt that once housed a mithraeum.


 * All of this should come as a surprise to no one. There is abundant evidence of early Christians destroying pagan temples to various pagan gods and building new Christian churches on the same site. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem was constructed on top of a temple dedicated to Venus. Church of the Nativity of Bethlehem was built on the site of a temple to Adonis which had been demolished. Etc, etc, etc... - Big Brother 1984 01:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That's irrelevent to EALacey's point. He didn't dispute that early Christians converted Mithrea into churches; he disputed whether any published authors argue that that provides evidence for the Jesus-Myth.  The point, as it stands, regardless of it's truth, is OR.  Thus I've reverted your revert. TheologyJohn 07:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly. And the reference to "lack of dissent" doesn't follow from the agreed fact of the replacements, and needs to be sourced independently. EALacey 09:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Any substance to this website?

 * http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ --Filll 14:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Depends on what you mean by substance. The arguments in the fields which I am familiar with are pretty flimsy, and it seems like an advocacy, not scholarly site. Thanatosimii 15:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The structure of the site is confusing, but I've had a look at some sections on topics I know a bit about and I'm not impressed. I happen to have studied Mithraism recently for other reasons, and most of the site's page on the topic seems completely wrong to me; parts are just exaggerated, or following one scholarly opinion without acknowledging others, but some if it seems to have no basis in reality. At other points, while not definitely wrong, the site's highly tendentious. (For instance, it quotes a letter of "Hadrian" without noting that it comes from a source well known for including forged documents and is arguably anachronistic for when it purports to be written. I find the author's lack of scepticism here rather amusing given he thinks almost everything written by ancient Christians was forged.)


 * In fairness, some of the external links supporting a historical Jesus are equally odd (e.g., the Christian apologetic page concluding that Jesus-myth views "are the result of a fallen and sinful human nature, of rampant egotism and arrogance, and nothing more"). Maybe the External links section could be trimmed a little? Some of the links may fall under Links normally to be avoided categories 2, 3 or 11. EALacey 19:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It definitely is not scholarly. --Filll 15:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, but I was trying to say more than just it's not written by scholars. The arguments therein are not intellectually honest. They assume as undeniable fact many arguments that are either out of date, contested, or mere speculation that could never be verefied. Thanatosimii 19:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * In my search for the truth I have spent a lot of time on this website, it has influenced me, and the question weather the site is dependable or not is thus important to me. Thanatosimii, could you - or somebody else - give examples of arguments that verifiably are out of date? Axlalta 19:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I left you a rough summary from reading over the page on your talk page. I don't see it as profitable to do point by point rebuttals of such sites. Whatever truth is therein is so marred as to be useless. Thanatosimii 20:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

good job
Just came in to see what happened with my suggestions ... and good job... you probably don't get to hear that much on this page.Goldenrowley 22:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

This article should go?
This article should go.

Imagine the outcry for articles such as this:


 * Holocaust as myth (and there are many people who claim that it is, from Mel Gibson's father to political leaders in Iran, where they just invited "scholars" from the world over to discuss it, including orthodox Jews).
 * Moses as myth probably not many people out there with this axe to grind...but who knows.
 * Muhammad as myth there are probably many people with this axe to grind, but still no article.

Anyway, I don't have the time to get into a name-calling war or anything, but if somebody would attempt to explain why we have a Jesus as myth article and not the other offensive articles, I would appreciate it. The existence of the article appears to be mean-spirited. StudyAndBeWise 03:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The first one could be an article, if there was a "mythology" around it. I believe Mel Gibson and his ilk (trust me, I don't watch his movies any more) and the Iranian government don't claim that there is a Holocaust myth, they're denying it.  I think you're confusing two different definitions for "myth":


 * a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature. I think this is the myth of Jesus, or, if we wish, the Myth of Moses and Myth of Muhammad.
 * any invented story, idea, or concept. This definition is what the Iranians or Holocaust deniers use when they say the Myth of the Holocaust.


 * So, if there were an article called, "Holocaust as myth," and it is to describe a mythology that surrounded the Holocaust, I'd write it, even if it were disgusting. Orangemarlin 04:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think you don't have much to worry about in Mel Gibson. Mel Gibson changed the sequence of the movie as he was, umn, persuaded.  He keeps the full extent of his views suppressed unless drunk, and then he apologizes for letting them slip out when he sobers up.  I suppose we could have the "the directors cut" release, but other than that, I don't think the Jewish people have much to fear.


 * Mel Gibson's father is a loose cannon, on the other hand, a conspiracy theorist who spreads mind viruses.


 * Regarding parrallel articles on Holocaust etc. as myths, again I am not advocating that such articles be written. Rather I am highlighting the vitriol directed at Christians by some wikipedia articles, vitriol that is out of the ordinary, as evidenced by the juxtaposition of the existence of this article and with the absence of the previously identified parallel articles.  StudyAndBeWise 07:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You do realize that there is a subsection of Wikipedia editors who firmly believe that Wikipedia is pro-Christian. For me, it's the "political correctness" we have to gie to Christians on all of the Evolution articles.  As for this article, I do not consider it an anti-Christian article, but one that describes some scholarly theories on how a non-historic Jesus might have arisen out of other myths.  There is no vitriol in this article, and there are a number of "Christians" who have added to the editing in profound ways.  In fact, there was a consensus a couple of weeks ago that it required a re-write, and it's being done.  I would hope that you see it in a different light.  Orangemarlin 17:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * There is an article on Holocaust denial, and there are also sections in the articles on Moses and other OT figures which discuss the idea that they are non-historical. This is very different from the Jesus Myth theory, whch grows from 19th C ideas about myth-systems and human psychology. Since no-one denies that Muhammad existed it would be as pointless as having an article on Abraham Lincoln as myth. Paul B 12:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I've read the article, but it's not a "myth" in the sense of this article. It is a myth=lie, but it needs to be described.  I expect to read what the Holocaust deniers are writing in a scholarly article.  As for Mohammed, there are actually a number of historical documents and writings that describe that he existed as a historical figure.  Other than the gospels or Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, all of which seem to have been written decades after Jesus' death, and a couple of writings here and there, there are no other verifiable evidence of Jesus' life.  For all that he had supposedly done, I find it very strange that the Romans, who are anal retentive in their bureaucracy, didn't leave anything behind.  So, in other words, based on historical evidence, Mohammed is an almost sure thing as being real, and Jesus almost a sure thing that he didn't.  That's the difference.  Orangemarlin 17:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

To Sophia: No, I have not done any research yet. I suppose I will have to now, but it is a lot of work, and all to improve an article that I do not believe is legitimate. After the research, I might find that the article is legitimate, and that the other articles I mentioned are legitimate, and for balance, feel compelled to write those too, or to leave an imbalance. It is a path I want to avoid. Note that I have not made changes, moves, or subtractions from the article. As far as I know, in cases where you don't have enough knowledge to contribute to an article proper, users are still invited to help improve the article by critiqueing it on the talk pages. My argument (on which I have only taken the informal action of discussing it on this talk page) to delete this article remains, though Paul B. did throw a wrench into the argument. StudyAndBeWise 18:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

To Paul B. I saw the article about the history, development, and methods of Holocaust denial. Unlike the Jesus as myth article, it is not an article that, as far as I can tell, enumerates pros and cons of logic used in Holocaust denial. The tone and method of each article seem different to me, but I will have to read again and reword. I think the Holocaust denial article, for legitimate reasons (e.g., more historical evidence as well as eye witness accounts), does not lend any support for the deniers. This Jesus as myth article includes arguments, effectively, that since we cannot find Jesus' birth cirtificate, this is evidence (lack of confirmation) of him not even existing. StudyAndBeWise 18:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

To orangemarlin: I agree with your general assessment on the approach of this article compared to the Holocaust article. However, the section on historical documentation on whether or not Jesus existed deviates. I think this is where, in my opinion, the Jesus article approaches the lunacy of holocaust deniers. I cannot find any evidence, other than the fact that I am alive, that my great great grandfather walked this earth. I usually don't like political correctness, either. In general wikipedia may or may not be pro-christian, or softer than you would like on Christians. StudyAndBeWise 18:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

To restate my argument in light of Paul's point and orangemarlin's observations. The Holocaust was a bad example because it is not a religious figure (it was selected because it is an example that stirs emotions). It was also bad because it was so recent in historical terms that anybody who makes the argument that Hitler never even walked the earth, let alone implement an industrialized and genocidal eugenics program, is immediately discounted as a nutcase. The comparisons to other religious figures is better, but not perfect, in the sense that religious people don't worship Muhammad, Abraham, and Moses. (Speaking of which, I know of an otherwise bright man who, based on his own personal research, believes that Moses was a woman, or at least he claims to have come to this conclusion in conversations with him. Hopefully he won't get published, lest we have to write an article on the myth that Moses was a man).

Maybe I am taking political correctness to an extreme. I will do some research in a few months, and get back to you. Meanwhile, I hope those who have already done the research are truly and objectively convinced that this article is justified by wikipedia's standards. StudyAndBeWise 18:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Might be a bit picky on my part but ... I thought the title of this section should more accurately reflect it's contents, especially as it's an important question. For what it's worth I do feel that there should definitely be a section somewhere about this topic, so it might as well be here! Mercury543210 22:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Move to historicity of jesus--I concur
I propose that the following quoted text from the article does not belong in this article due to POV issues (discussed in more detail after the quote), and may not belong in any article unless citations are provided:

There are no surviving non-Christian documents that make reference to Jesus until the end of the first century when Josephus wrote the Antiquities of the Jews, however the authenticity of this account is subject to controversy. This is despite the survival of writings by a number of Roman and Jewish commentators and historians who wrote in the first century. The paucity of non-Christian evidence is, to advocates of the Jesus Myth theory, an argument from silence that Jesus was a later invention. To critics of the Jesus Myth theory, the silence is attributed to the relative unimportance of the historical Jesus at the time as viewed by Romans, Greeks, and most Jews. Advocates of the Jesus Myth theory counter this response by noting that all the evidence which does exist to support Jesus – mainly, the Gospels – describes a monumental figure, performing wondrous miracles and challenging the most prominent figures of the day, not some inconsequential nobody.

Advocates of the Jesus Myth theory point out that the earliest references to Jesus are by Christian writers (in the New Testament and its Apocrypha). Of the few non-Christian references, almost all merely mention the existence of Christians and their belief, rather than explicitly mentioning Jesus as having existed. The most cited example for a non-Christian reference to Jesus is Josephus (37 CE - c. 100 CE), whose Antiquities, written in 93 CE (more than two generations after most Christian scholars date the crucifixion), contain two references to a Jesus. One of these states that he was the founder of a sect.

Getting back to this article, I do have to agree that mentioning, and I am paraphrasing here, the failure to locate Roman birth and/or death cirtificates of Jesus does not belong in this article. If it belongs anywhere, it would belong in the Historicity article in a section that describes efforts to confirm via vital records and what not that Jesus actually lived. The implication in this article (due to its title) are not neutral, and neutrally interpreting it in this article would likely entail original research. In other words, it's a cheap shot that cannot be countered within the rules of wikipedia. I say move it, or at least eliminate it from this article. StudyAndBeWise 07:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Central to the theories of most mythicists is the fact that there are no documentation or other historical artifacts until many decades after the events were supposed to have occurred. Adding references would be good but this is a fair summary of both the facts of the matter, and the way they are viewed by the mythicists. It belongs here because it is pertinent to the article - central in some ways.
 * Please consider your motive for editing this article. It offends you and you feel it should be deleted which is not the best start for an NPOV frame of mind. Also bear in mind what it says at the top of the page. This article is ABOUT the myths - we are not trying to prove anything one way or another. Like it or not these are the facts. I have read books on both sides of this subject - have you? Sophia  13:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sophia, I will address your points about deleteing the article in the other section. In this section I tried to seperate what I thought would be an easier to digest point regarding whether or not Jesus even walked on this Earth.  In the context of Jesus as myth, the implication and countering it without resorting to original research or argumentation seems impossible to me (that is why I said it cannot be countered within the rules of wikipedia).  StudyAndBeWise 17:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * StudyandbeWise has been a frequent editor who I believe not only deserves the "Assume good faith" but should treated in that manner. In other words, I'm responding to you because I respect what you have written in the past.  However, I find troubling that you think this article should be deleted because it is anti-christian.  It is an NPOV that does not assume that Jesus existed, sure.  Orangemarlin 17:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Orangemarlin. Thanks.  In this section I am arguing that the quoted text be moved from this article.  I am still trying to figure out how to do this without ticking other people off, and am admittedly doing this without consultation to any outside sources.  I am at this point only applying logic, and hoping others who have done more research on what interested and disinterested parties say either agree or show me how I am missing some key point.  (E.g., it is possible to balance this section wihtout resorting to original research, that it just hasn't been done yet).  I suppose another alternative, in the case of this section, is to move uncited material to discussion pending research.  I have not done this, but am proposing for the purposes of improving the article that it be done.  StudyAndBeWise 17:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not pretend to be an expert on this article. I got involved, because I was trying to educate myself on the topic, when I found this article.  A month ago, it was poorly written, and read like a horrible compromise between passionate Christians and passionate mythicists.  It was so bad, many people wanted it deleted.  We found consensus a few weeks ago to revert to a prior version before the "war" started.  That is where we are now.  I am suggesting that you read the compromise and how we got there, before making any suggestions.  We do not want to go down the path of warring between "Christ existed and the rest of you should be damned to hell" and the "Christ didn't exist and we're going to prove it" factions.  That will be bad.  Orangemarlin 17:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I just removed the POV tag. I will take a look through the history. The article may be far better now than it was.

My intentions in general were to concur informally that the article should be deleted on politically correct grounds (but not to take formal action at this time, just chime in on the talk page), and formally that the above quoted text should be removed.

How do I do the formal request to remove what I term "cheap shots" from the article, perhaps moving them to another article? I am more confident in my logic in this case. Regarding whether or not Jesus was the Christ is, I think, a valid religious question. (Whether or not there should be an article on it I agree is debatable, and I would probably loose that debate). Implying that he was never even born is a speciuos cheap shot, I think. Whether or not I win this debate, I don't know, but I firmly believe it is a cheap shot bordering on the fringe (my opinion, no citations available). I cannot even produce documentation that my great great grandfater was born of woman.

As some of you have noted, I am not in an edit war, I have not done research, but am offering, in this section, what I think is a valid critique of a particular section of the article. Does this critique not warrant attention? I am not demanding that you do this work, but if somebody has done the research, and does concur with me, I encourage you to work the mentions regarding the lack of historical non-christian contemporaneous historical documentation to another article. Besides, even if both sides can be cited, it will end up a pointless description of the type: "they claim, they counter, they counter-counter" of what I consider an unimportant detail. StudyAndBeWise 18:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sometimes an editor, who has no vested interest in what is kept or lost, can be an unbiased observer as to what appears to be or does not appear to be POV. I would suggest if you read something that is POV, post it here, and let's discuss it.  I think that might work best.  I do disagree that there are "cheap shots" in here.  You do realize that there is very little evidence of Jesus' existence.  Does the lack of evidence mean that he did not exist?  Probably not, but that does not belong here, it belongs, as you rightly pointed out, in the Historicity of Jesus article.  This article should stick strictly with a "myth" and how it arose.  It does not pretend to argue that myth is true or not, just that it existed.  Orangemarlin 19:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Mythicists use the fact that there is nothing for decades and then contradictory and erroneous facts in the Gospels as a starting point. If we take away the basis of their theories how can we illustrate the history of their ideas? No one has answered that point from my previous post.
 * This is where it all went wrong last time. People arrived here with feelings and opinions but no knowledge of the subject. Read the books guys - on both sides. I recommend John M. Allegro's The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth. I've also read Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ but found it very weak. There are quite a few other books too when you have got through those. The best arguments are to be found in our Historicity of Jesus where they discuss the reasonable expectations of documentation from that era. I intend no disrespect to any editor but it is impossible to contribute to an article when you don't know the field. How can you make a call as to whether something is balanced or not when all you can bring to the debate is a sense of disgust that the article even exists? It's unfair to set the stage for this rewrite that our job is to educate and convince you that these are serious works and not "cheap shots". I'm sorry if this seems rude or not AGF but this is second time round for me and I wasted a lot of time last year on this article that was then trashed. Sophia  19:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Studyandbewise is a good editor who has helped with a lot of good articles on the Evolution side. I trust that he will get up to speed with this article and will contribute sound advice.  I will put my foot down to stop us from going backwards.  Orangemarlin 20:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

As this progresses, the question I hope to provoke thought on is this: Does the lack of a birth cirtificate warrant mention in an article on the Jesus myth? If so, fine. To me it does not, but mine is an unresearched position. Sophia, does Allegro talk about the lack of contemporaneous evidence as being significant?

I understand that when you've put work and effort into an article, that it is real work and is under appreciated.

Orangemarlin is right. It *appears* to me to be a cheap shot. It does not necessarily appear to be an intentional cheap shot. Sophia, I understand what you're going through. I have not put the time into reading source material, and I am criticizing the article. If you don't agree with me, that is fine. If you do, and you've read source material, please use my observation as motivation to improve the article. I am not deleting anything, just providing perspective that I had hoped might be helpful. But my perspective may be an ignorant one, and the only *real* problems may be with citations and organization of content in the specified section, and not the content itself.

Note that I did not see any citations regarding "Central to many of the mythical theories is the fact that there are no surviving [contemporaneous] non-Christian documents that make reference to Jesus..." and subsequent discussion. If I had, I might have better understood that such points are controversial and widely discussed in the subject at hand. As it is now, it seems like unimportant discussion of a cheap shot.

I intend no disrespect to any editor but it is impossible to contribute to an article when you don't know the field. See Contributing_to_Wikipedia. I am not trying to denigrate your good efforts for wikipedia, and now understand that my comments come after some heated battles. Even so, I made the comments, and we had a discussion. If nothing is done, I'll probably dig in and do the research, as I think a little political correctness is sometimes a good thing for sensitive articles--it might even act as a preventative to keep extremists from chiming in, or I might be overly optomistic. StudyAndBeWise 21:23, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Well I am just a neutral reader & I see some slighly POV words in the section quoted by studyandbewise that were needlessly used, but for the most part it is just reporting facts. THis is what I propose to do, then I'll be bold and do it:


 * "there are no surviving non-Christian documents" -> "there are no known documents, other than Christian documents"
 * "the paucity of non-Christian evidence" -> "the lack of evidence"
 * "an argument from silence" -> "an argument that silence means"
 * "Of the few non-Christian references" -> change to "of the few secular sources"
 * "merely mention (Jesus)" - > change to -> "only mention (Jesus"
 * "explicitly mentioning Jesus" --> "clearly mentioning Jesus". Goldenrowley 21:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Be careful - this is about non-Christian sources. The Gospels are historical documents and are used as evidence for the historicity of Jesus so you cannot just claim there is a "lack of evidence". Also the other sources are not always secular - writers of other religions were at work then. An argument from silence is a particular phrase that means a very specific type of argument. Any changes that get rid of potentially emotive words such as "paucity" have got to be good.  Sophia  21:40, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Also you need "explicitly" as Christians would claim that mentioning Christians implicitly mentions Jesus. Sophia  21:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I tried: IN NPOV is usually about the adjectives chose. The word "Non-Christian" can read as "Anti-Christian" so can you think of other word to mean the same thing? Then look at the adjectives, I think merely is a "put down" word and explicitely is a "argumentative" word; you do not need explicitely at all. Documents either mention Jesus, or they do not.Goldenrowley 21:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * To me, "non-christian" could mean Roman, Jewish, Greek or anything else. It should not imply anti-Christian to anyone.  If you use "secular" sources, that sounds vaguely anti-semitic to me, because I consider Jews to be as nonsecular as a Christian.  See where this leads?  Non-Christian implies nothing more than it wasn't written by a Christian.  Orangemarlin 23:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I would agree and also say that words like "explicitly" have a very particular meaning too (ie the opposite of implicit) - my example above makes that clear. As for "merely" I totally agree - opinionated emotive word that should go. Sophia  23:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I can take both your good points into consideration, you actually show me what the implicit/explicit was really about it just was not clear... like this...

-"there are no surviving non-Christian documents" -> "there are no known documents, other than Christian documents"

-"the paucity of non-Christian evidence" -> "the lack of evidence" (I think already clear that it means non-C by the text)

-"an argument from silence" -> "an argument that silence means" (I've linked to page on "argument from silence")

-"Of the few non-Christian references" -> change to "of the few secular sources" Of the few references outside of Christian documents"

-"merely mention (Jesus)" - > change to -> "only mention (Jesus" "mention Christians (implying there is a Jesus)"

-"explicitly mentioning Jesus" --> " clearly mentioning Jesus". Goldenrowley 23:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * May I make a suggestion that everyone don't get too passionate one way or another. The point of this article is not to bring down Christianity (I am always amazed at the power of Wikipedia to destroy something--sarcasm intended), it is to describe how certain myths at the time of Jesus might have lead to a myth of Jesus.  It is an interesting scholarly article.  Nothing else.  Orangemarlin 23:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Orange I fixed the statements that concerned me, I am pretty un-passionate today (smile) and I hope I have been a little helpful. Goldenrowley 23:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Your suggested changes are all right to me, but I would hate to get too wrapped up in political correctness, while missing the scholarly point of the article. Make sure Sophia concurs too, since she has invested a lot in this article.  Orangemarlin 00:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Please don't make it sound as if I have WP:OWN problems. The only objections I make are based on my knowledge of the subject - which is not as complete as I would like so I do encourage all to research and bring good sources here. Also I do not agree with the change to the "argument from silence" as this is a specific term most people will understand - why do you think the article is called what it is? If you are having to change how you refer to an article it's a good idea to either update whether you are using the right term yourself or if needs be ask for the name of the article to be changed. Sophia  15:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Sophia, Okay with me to use "argument from silence" but I don't think its commonly known for people under college level.Goldenrowley 16:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * OK I have just self reverted partially (to an argument from silence), but put a short explanation in parenthisis for people who have not been to college. I understand you had to revert to a previous year version and dont feel critical at all, just keeping it as clear and neutral on each point. Double negatives are not clear to average people that is one reason I changed statements about "nothing from non-Christians"....also I think this article should be as politically correct as we can possibly make it. Goldenrowley 20:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Pythagorean section
why was it removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesusmyth (talk • contribs) 15:27, February 11, 2007

Wow, not sure who wrote this, but maybe it should be deleted? Orangemarlin 23:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jesus_as_myth&diff=107428297&oldid=96736595

has the gnostic and pythagorean elements sections these sections were removed for some reason--Jesusmyth 00:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * We reverted to a version from last summer. There was too much arguing and other stuff, and it ruined the article.  You can rewrite it if you think it adds to the article.  Orangemarlin 01:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Source suggested
Is a magazine considered scholarly enough for this group? If so I can bring an interesting article on early church that may be relevant. Goldenrowley 22:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * By all means bring it here. Even if we can't use it directly maybe it will give us some other links we can use. Sophia  22:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok I refer to: Tolson, Jay. US News & World Report, "In Search of the Real Jesis ^Jesus^:New Research questions whether he was more teacher than Savior", Dec 18 2006 issue. I read it and the "new research" they speak about is the recent translations of the Book of Judah and ongoing translations of Gnostic texts which interpret Jesus mostly as a myth or allegory. This is a quick overview of the latest research of Gnostic intrepetation, not too detailed but very current. Goldenrowley 02:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Did they really miss-spell "Jesus" as "Jesis"? I question the authority of any magazine article which can't even spell the name of the person who is the subject of the article right. I mean, come on, its five letters long and its simple, not to mention really famous.... Homestarmy 02:44, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That was my mistake not theirs. Goldenrowley 03:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC) ^Sorry!^ Goldenrowley 03:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Horus & citations
Since there has been no response to the citation request I have cut the following passage: Some versions of the Book of the Dead report that Horus fed 5000 with just a few loaves of bread, since he was born and lived at the house of bread (it was a historic capital of Egypt, and grain store), which translated into Hebrew is bethlehem, and was named Annu in Egyptian, which translated into Hebrew is bethany (house of Any/Anu). GoldenMeadows 16:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Frazer
Frazer's work on myth is cited in the article as having provided the foundation for current Jesus-myth theory. I believe it is important to make it clear that Frazer explicitly rejected the Jesus-myth hypothesis. In the 3rd edition of The Golden Bough he stated that, "my theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth.... The doubts which have been cast upon the historical reality of Jesus are, in my judgment, unworthy of serious attention." TheologyJohn deleted the second part of this quotation, judging it irrelevant to this section of the article. However, it seems to me that if a scholar is said to have provided the foundations for a theory it is important to note that he specifically rejects that theory. Barrett Pashak 16:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm trying to think back to my thoughts at the time - I can't think entirely why I wrote that. Is he responding to any proper academic theory of it - had anything corresponding to the modern theory been written at the time?  e.g. was he responding to say G.A. Wells? TJ 11:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * He doesn't specify. He just says, "My views on this subject appear to have been strangely misunderstood." Would you have any objection to restoring the part of the quotation that you deleted? Barrett Pashak 01:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think so, as long as no-one else here has any. Perhaps the "My views on this subject appear to have been strangely misunderstood." quote could be used as well.  Do we know with confidence that he is actually used by the mythicists, though? Because it's really unfair on them to say so otherwise. TJ 16:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think that mythicists refer to Frazer at all anymore. His disavowal is far to stark for them to get around. Nevertheless, I think it is fair to say that he did give the myth theory a great boost up until his disavowal in the third edition. Here is the relevant passage in full:

As my views on this subject appear to have been strangely misunderstood, I desire to point out explicitly that my theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth as a great religious and moral teacher [not, you will notice, as the Son of God] who founded Christianity and was crucified at Jerusalem under the governorship of Pontius Pilate. The testimony of the gospels, confirmed by the hostile evidence of Tacitus (Ann. 15,44) and the younger Pliny (Epist. 10,96) appears amply sufficient to establish these facts to the satisfaction of all unprejudiced enquirers. It is only the details of the life and death of Christ that remain, and will probably always remain, shrouded in the mists of uncertainty. The doubts which have been cast upon the historical reality of Jesus are, in my judgment, unworthy of serious attention. Quite apart from the positive evidence of history and tradition, the origin of a great religious and moral reform is inexplicable without the personal existence of a great reformer. To dissolve the founder of Christianity into a myth, as some would do, is hardly less absurd than it would be to do the same for Mohammed, Luther, and Calvin. Such dissolving views are for the most part the dreams of students who know the great world chiefly through its pale reflection in books. These extravagances of scepticism have been well exposed by Professor C.F. Lehmann-Haupt in his Israel, seine Entwicklung im Rahmen der Weltgeschichte (Tubingen, 1911), pp. 275-285. I don't know how much of this you think should go in. Suggestions? Barrett Pashak 04:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Hearing none, I'll just go ahead with what looks to me as a reasonably indicative quotation.Barrett Pashak 19:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Restoring material from the old article?
About a month ago, this article was reverted to an older version. Looking back at the page before it was reverted, I think there may be a case for incorporating some material from that version into the current article.

In particular, I think that the old section on The New Testament epistles is superior to the current one on Paul's presentation of Jesus. I edited the old section, whereas I haven't had anything to do with the current section that I can remember, so perhaps I'm biased. But I think that the old version is clearer and better referenced. The current section is longer, but the additional material all looks problematic to me. For example, the current article draws a rigid distinction between the undisputed Pauline letters and the other Paulines in their view of Jesus. However, it isn't clear about what this involves (what, for instance, is the difference between "occasional references ... to a flesh-and-blood Jesus" and "limited mention of Jesus as a historic figure"?). Also, it doesn't cite any sources who make this distinction. On the other hand, the old article cites the views of G. A. Wells and Earl Doherty on the Epistles, and makes it clear that these authors find a non-Gospel Jesus in more than just the undisputed Paulines.

According to the current article, Elaine Pagels considers Paul to have been a Gnostic. The Wikipedia article on The Gnostic Paul does say that, but a linked review in Theology Today refers only to "Pagels' apparent assumption that if Paul is well beloved by the Valentinians, he could not have been an anti-gnostic", and quotes her as leaving "to other scholars" the question of whether Gnostic exegesis of Paul was "accurate". If this is right, the current article may be attributing to Pagels a stronger claim than she actually makes. EALacey 20:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. In this case, the old version represents the theories of specific Jesus-myth proponents.  The new version makes a series of inaccurate arguments based presumably upon one individuals more general feel of the field (or, worse, on one individuals POV), which are only attributed (wrongly, apparently - I've only read Pagels' the gnostic gospels, but I'll take your word for it) on one occasion. TJ 11:52, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In case I was unclear, I haven't read The Gnostic Paul either; I'm going on the information online. EALacey 12:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, you weren't unclear... I'm just a bit slow! :) TJ 12:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Since nobody has raised an objection, I'll go ahead and make the change. EALacey 15:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The "Biblical contradictions" section
We seem to have disagreement on whether this should be in the article. Here's my suggestion. Wikipedia has an article on Internal consistency of the Bible. Why not incorporate the relevant material from this article into that article's section on The Gospels, and then include a brief paragraph in this article saying something like "advocates of the Jesus as myth theory consider inconsistencies in the Gospels as evidence for their views"? We could then add a reference to a Jesus-myth theorist who makes that argument to make it clear that it isn't OR. EALacey 15:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Does any mythicist actually make this case? (As in, in published literature beyond blogs or whatever.)  I expect that that section would be regarded, by most moderately knowledgeable mythicists, as an embarassment to their theory. The idea that a string of pretty minor contradictions could entirely discredit that kind of document as any kind of witness to the historical Jesus is, to my mind, absurd - all those kinds of contradictions could ever serve to possibly show is that inerrancy is incorrect (and even that, in its weaker forms, could survive).


 * I have no objection to it being included if some such witness can be found. Heck, something like that discredits the theory so effectively does kind of play to my biases!  However, I really doubt one could find one.  It really is a very poor case, as I'm sure even the mythicists among us would agree. TJ 16:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Certainly, if the "Biblical contradictions" argument isn't actually used by published Jesus-as-myth proponents, then it shouldn't be included in this article. Either way, I think the arguments regarding the consistency of individual passages are far more appropriate to the other page than to this one. EALacey 16:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi EALacey. I agree with your solution (it's a complete Red Herring here - for every single person in ancient history of whom there are multiple non-trivial accounts there will be inconsistenices in the details of the accounts. On this "argument" Julius Caesar was a myth) - but it's worth remembering that the arguments made have to be sourced. Simply picking up Biblical references, saying that something "would have" happened etc.. is WP:OR and not allowed in an article. Why not just do it.NBeale 16:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Under Historiography and methodology, I've cited a published article by Earl Doherty which uses Gospel inconsistencies as evidence for his Jesus-as-myth theory. I've given it about the same amount of space as the inadequately sourced paragraph that was there before. There may be a more detailed or authoritative source that can be cited, but I hope this is adequate for now. EALacey 17:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Freke and Gandy use this argument too and I will check Thompson later. The line of argument I have seen is that if this is "The Word of God" then there should be no inconsistencies - some of which are not trivial eyewitness differencies but diametrically opposed messages (ie Jesus coming to bring peace/not peace, or divorce is ok sometimes/never ok) that continue to cause divisions within Christianity today. If the Gospels were any old documents then this would not be significant. The histories of Julius Caesar have not been used to justify persecution and murder. The histories of Cleopatra have not been used to refuse contraception and protection from aids to developing countries. I do not consider it a weak argument to hold "exceptional documents" to exceptional scrutiny. I would suggest that anyone who does has got too used to their church glossing over these problems and the fact that from birth, in a Christian country, you will be presented with these documents as unquestionable authorities. Classic Doublethink is required to marry the fact that the Gospels describe a momentus figure preaching to vast crowds with major natural phonomena occuring, to the fact that nowhere is this recorded by anyone for at least half a century. It is also required to marry the reality of todays churches with the message in the Gospels but that's another matter.


 * Back on topic - we should certainly not repeat what is written in another article and I fully support removing most of the material and linking to the main article with a paragraph or two on it's relevence to the myth theories. Sophia  18:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Not a Theory but a suggestion
I really don't think it is right to call this a Theory. There is no significant academic support for this (as far as I can see only one tenured Professor in a relevant discipline out of the tens of thousands in the world) for the very good reason that it is completely ludicrous. If there were any suggestion in antiquity that Jesus had not been a real person then it would certainly have been recorded in the Jewish tradition, yet all the references to Jesus in the Talmud presuppose that he was a real person. Equally it is clear from Pliny's letter that the Roman authorities, who were trying to supress the cult, never suggested that Jesus was not a real person. We should characterise it as a "suggestion" (which it clearly is) and not dignify it with the name "theory". NBeale 17:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think "theory" is making any statement on the merits or otherwise of the theory. I would regard young earth creationism as a theory, but I would also regard it as absurd. TJ 17:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * On the continuum from "suggestion" to "hypothesis" to "theory" this clearly lies at the suggestion end. There are lots of quite serious people who believe in young earth creationism. Jesus as Myth is well beyond the lunatic fringe. Not even Richard Dawkins accepts it! NBeale 19:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)I prefer t


 * There are no serious people who believe in young earth creationism - just those well beyond the lunatic fringe of pretend scientists. The Jesus myth is a theory in the same way that creationism and evolution are both theories. What differs are their acceptance amongst the wider community and this article makes it clear that this particular theory is not widely accepted. Sophia  19:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * So i'm not seriously a person anymore? At least now people can't insult what I personally think if I don't exist huh... Homestarmy 20:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I admit to being on some lunatic fringes myself so no insult was intended :o) Sophia  21:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think "theory" and "myth" are appropriate words. Of course the Talmud references, what few there are, are unlikely to mention, "Oh by the way this messiah chap met a sticky end. We warned him, but did he listen ?....", but they do kind of mention someone around that time though very slim references here. But the article is not arguing "Did Jesus Exist ?" but "Did Jesus do all those things on the way to the forum ?". If the NT was written contemporaneous to "Jesus" or at least very close to the events then I would agree "suggestion" as it would be fringe to doubt the primary sources but given that the New Testament was written many years after the supposed life of this alleged messiah I feel that "theory" and "myth" are appropriate words. On balance (what few records plus the results of say the Jesus Seminar), I'm like Dawkins and would say that there probably was a person but it's rather far fetched to presume much of what was written many years after in the NT was true any more than what is written in the OT is true. Sorry but Christianity may be built on rock but it's a house of cards. Ttiotsw 22:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, that's an interesting opinion, but yet again I find myself bashing my head against a wall in frustration because somehow the world has gotten the opinion that the most liberal fringes are somehow the "most scholarly" position or some analogous sentiment. But on the topic of the term "theory," in scholarship a theory is what happens whenever someone sits down and says, "I think this ....." It has no attached inference of truth or falsehood, or of solidness or flimsyness. Thanatosimii 00:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ignatius of Antioch and related references
I have removed the following from the article, under "History of the theories".


 * This view was shared by Marcion (110-160 A.D.), who compiled the first version of the New Testament as early as 144 A.D., and whose followers, the Marcionites, continued until the 4th Century.


 * Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, in 115 A.D. in the "Epistle to Mary at Neapolis, near Zarbus," urged her: "Avoid those that deny the passion of Christ, and His birth according to the flesh; and there are many at present who suffer under this disease." The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians in chapter 7 says: "For anyone who does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is an antichrist," apparently quoting 1 John 4:3.

The problem here is that, as far as I know, no modern scholar regards the letter to Mary as an authentic work of Ignatius. Only seven letters ascribed to Ignatius are generally agreed to be authentic (listed at Ignatius of Antioch). The letter to Mary can't be taken as reliable evidence about the beliefs of early-second century Christians, because it was written later than then, probably centuries later.

This means that whoever added the quotation from Ignatius must have been carrying out original research – or relying on a very outdated source. I've removed two other patristic references being used to make the same point; it's likely that they were added at the same time. I have left in the only quotation which the article explicitly states is cited by Freke and Gandy in support of their views. If someone with access to these authors' work could check which, if any, of the other references they cite, then those could go back in the article, as long as it's made clear that "Freke and Gandy cite Polycarp", etc. EALacey 19:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Midrash and Legends
JS speaking: I don't agree, on a scholarly basis, with what the article states about the Christian religion (and Christian gospel narratives) having any similarity to mythical religions. For example, Pinchas Lapide, a devout Jewish rabbi, is still careful to discern between the historical nature of the resurrection and narrative in the gospel accounts and the embellished narratives that he finds in Jewish targums and midrash, and legends of others cultures. He explained on page 101 of his work The Resurrection of Jesus: A Jewish Perspective: "The targums are translations of the biblical text into the Aramaic popular language which were made before the time of Jesus. They embellished this translation by paraphrastic statements, enlarements, and explanations. Another example is the midrash---that 'investigation of the Scriptures' which frequently takes the biblical text only as the starting point for a plethora of moral teachings, homileies, legends, and tales, in order to deepen the Holy Scriptures and 'to bring heaven closer to the community.'" He continues on page 109, that "to blame the rabbis and evangelists for deception or to accuse them of lying would have been as foreign to the Jews and Jewish Christians of that time as an accusation of 'embellishment' against Shakespeare's Macbeth would be to us. The best proof for the solid faith in the resurrection is probably the realistic way in which the two oldest gospels [Matthew and Mark] describe the painful death of Jesus on the cross." I hope this quote will be enough to show the inaccuracy of believing that Christianity, during its earliest years, could have been influenced by legends and midrash prevelant in both Judea and the rest of the secular world. --- [(JS), 164.58.96.126, on 9 March at 9:47 a.m.] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 156.110.47.73 (talk) 15:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

Consensus ignored?
NPOV? Come on now. Since the consensus opinion among millions of Christians and others across the world is that Jesus is not a myth, then why isn't there any hint of refutation of this in the first paragraph, such as:
 * Opponents of the Jesus Myth theory regularly accuse those who advocate the existence of such parallels of confusing the issue of who was borrowing from whom, a charge which was also made in ancient times by prominent early Christians.

I'm not an opponent of the Jesus Myth theory. I'm just pointing out the fact that this is not the consensus opinion and yet the opening paragraphs don't mention this at all. Compare and contrast with Intelligent Design which is blasted for being a minority position. ElderStatesman 18:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The difference is, there is no evidence that Jesus existed. There is no evidence that intelligent design is real. Get the picture? You find evidence that Jesus existed, or evidence that intelligent design is real, and then we can talk. Until then...--Filll 19:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh? There's plenty of evidence for Jesus' existance, the problem is merely whether people find the evidence acceptable or not, evidence doesn't have to be airtight for everyone for it to actually be evidence. Homestarmy 19:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well then someone needs to revisit a few articles here on Wikipedia, because I'm unconvinced about this "evidence". Other than the ramblings of a few Christian writers whose goal in the 1st Century CE was to market and promote the new church, what evidence is there?  It's funny that the retentive Romans failed to mention this Jesus person.  And we can go on from there.  I never really studied this area until recently.  I just assumed that Jesus was some crazy Jewish rabbi that ran amok.  After trying to find one reasonable source, it's clear that he was an invention of some Jewish sect who needed a messiah.  Sad really, given what that Jewish sect did to their Jewish brethren over the past 2000 years.Orangemarlin 19:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Even though I personally believe that Jesus probably existed, I have to admit that the evidence is very scanty indeed. And that is why scholars get so excited when there is news of some potential archaeological evidence that shows he might have existed (none of which has yet played out). This should not be news to anyone. I was taught this regularly as a child growing up in a CHRISTIAN church. Any church that ignores this truth is basically a church built on lies and deceit, and is an embarassment to a community committed to the truth. --Filll 20:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

What do your personal beliefs have to do with it? You mean to tell me that the consensus view is all that matters in Intelligent Design, but the consensus view is immaterial when it comes to Jesus. I think I see what this site is all about. Pretty funny exposing hypocracy though. ElderStatesman 00:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Let's go about this logically. First of all, mentioning ID in this article is rather silly, but let's go with it.  Intelligent Design is an article that discusses, in plain NPOV, that it is a belief set that attempts to be scientific, but is in no way so.  The article exists, and everyone is allowed to read it and make up their own mind.  This article is merely one that describes why mythology might have lead to a Jesus myth.  The opinions of 1 billion Christians nevertheless does not mean that they are right.  Remember 100 million Christians used to believe the world was flat, populated by dragons, and whatever else they thought up at the time.  This article is so NPOV that I believe it fails to deliver the intended point.  But thank you Raspor, er ElderStatemen for your comments.  Orangemarlin 01:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * BTW, this has absolutely nothing to do with "who is right". It doesn't matter if Jesus is a Myth or not. I should let you know up front that I'm not a Christian and I have nothing invested in the belief in Jesus Christ as a god-figure. That said, the reason these two articles (Intelligent Design vs. Jesus Myth) are an interesting comparison is because they are the most stunning examples of hypocracy I have personally witnessed in quite some time. On one hand the (so-called) consensus opinion is the overwhelmingly important viewpoint, on the other hand you can witness the same "group" of editors arguing that the consensus view is not important at all.  Huh?


 * I shouldn't admit it, but it makes me start to wonder if these "editors" are not a group at all but rather a single unemployed "no-lifer" who is on a mission to blame Jesus or me or whoever for the circumstances of their miserable existance. ElderStatesman 13:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hypocrisy? Huh?  Whatever.  And as for your conspiracy theory on editors?  That's so laughable it's beyond belief.  Maybe this is an example of Narcissistic personality disorder.  Orangemarlin 15:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Let's keep this discussion factual and refrain from musings on editors' personal motivations. WP is about facts and not about opinion. ID clearly does not meet the scientific standard. This is not consensus, it is fact. Just look up the definition of science. As to this myth, other religions/myths have incorporated an individual with strikingly similar characteristics as Jesus, that is also a fact. Whether Jesus was invented based on those stories is another matter. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 16:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * On ID there is a true consensus - the world's biologists accept evolution and natural selection as the expanation that best describes and predicts life around us. As for Christians - well over half the world thinks you are wrong and are either deluded or worshiping the wrong god . The only thing stunning here ElderStatesman is your lack of perspective and understanding of the subjects. Sophia  17:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Also stunning is the fact that about 50 editors are really one in the same person. That's a good one. Orangemarlin 17:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

ElderStatesman is missing something crucial. There is no hypocrisy here. WP is not a beauty contest. There is no dispute that Intelligent design or creationism is a popular belief among the public. This does not make it the truth. There is no dispute that the belief in Jesus as a historical figure is a popular belief among the public. In both cases, however, what is the evidence on which these beliefs are based ? THE EVIDENCE IN BOTH CASES IS ALMOST NONEXISTANT. The lack of evidence does not mean these beliefs are incorrect, however, it does mean that there should be no problem with presenting the other side. This has nothing to do with consensus among the public, or public opinions or even consensus among scientists. It has to do with evidence. Plain and simple. Evidence. We are an encyclopedia. We are not here to judge validity of something based on public opinions. If we do describe public opinions, it is only when they are a sociological measure of the public (as in level of support for evolution). There are already several articles describing Jesus as a historical subject or Jesus as a real person etc. Is there a problem with describing the minority view that Jesus never existed? Of course we point out that it is a minority view, just as we do for belief in UFOs or magic or anything else. However, in the case of Jesus as myth, the evidence for his existence is quite thin. And that is interesting and it would be dishonest not to present it in an encyclopedia. Of course, we could have some incredible archaeological find next month that might turn this field on its head, and which might be incredibly exciting. At that point, some of these articles would have to be rewritten. But until then, there should be no problem describing this minority theory. Especially since it has appeared over and over again historically, and has evidence to support it. Why are you so agitated that you want to throw around imprecations? That is not very civil and will end up with far more trouble than you bargained for. Which makes me suspect strongly that you are a sock puppet not really interested in writing an encyclopedia, but more interested in fighting and causing rancor.--Filll 18:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Err, Sophia, I seriously doubt half the world consists of Jesus-mythers, more like people who just aren't Christians. By the way, why does everyone who isn't Christian automatically have to be people who specifically think we are wrong? Whatever happened to that postmodernism thing I keep hearing about concerning universities or something? Homestarmy 17:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

It appears to me that about 2/3 of the world's population are not Christians. And of those, a large fraction believe you are wrong. In fact, most Christians believe you are wrong as well, if I remember some of your views. Something like 90% or more I would guess offhand. And a good fraction of the 1.5 billion Muslims might even like to have you killed because they think you are so wrong. Or had you forgotten that part?--Filll 18:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet and thus not a myth. Sorry. ElderStatesman 18:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In other words the Muslims believe that Jesus Son of God (or God himself depending on your sect) is a myth, that he was merely a prophet. Dionyseus 18:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Methinks the Orangemarlin doth protest too loudly.


 * Quick comment: This discussion reminds me of watching people play the Magic card game. In both cases, this is type of argument is something I've witnessed, but not actually participated in. In both cases, players argue about the meaning of "cards" (ie. NPOV, consensus, factual, sock-puppetry, meat puppetry accusations, troll). It soon becomes evident that a handful of unreasonable people will always find a way to bend the rules to suit their preferred outcome. Words like "consensus", "fact" and "POV" are very slippery words and hypocrits will use bend their meaning to push their agenda.


 * Just to clear the record, I've already stated that I'm not a Christian. That doesn't mean that I think Jesus is a myth. Furthermore, my beliefs or your beliefs aren't in question here. I just think that there is a great deal of hypocracy when you compare how the consensus opinion is handled on the ID page vs. how the consensus position is handled here. There is no doubt that the majority of people on this planet and virtually all Christians do not agree with "Jesus as Myth" theory.


 * Either the consensus opinion is the Wikipedia NPOV or it's not. If it's not then just leave it at that so that people know what they are dealing with. If the editors of Wikipedia are going to defend the Jesus as Myth argument as NPOV then they have staked out an intellectual position which will define the perspective of Wikipedia, and at the same time undermine the credibility of Wikipedia among many people.  ElderStatesman 18:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

RasporStatesmen, there are many other places you can go to engage in this kind of nonsense. You want some suggestions? How about a wiki for creationists or conservatives or intelligent design? I humbly suggest you might be more comfortable there. Of course, given who you are, I know all you want to do is cause fights. You are not really interested in writing an encyclopedia.--Filll 18:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * CreationWiki
 * Research ID Wiki
 * Conservapedia


 * Who is he then? Paul B 18:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * ElderStatesmen--you've been outed. Just wait a couple of month; we aren't THAT stupid.  Orangemarlin 18:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Wait, outed as who now? :/ Homestarmy 18:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

It should be obvious if you read what I wrote carefully. If you do not know him, then it is best to say that he is someone who tried repeatedly to goad others into fights, never wrote anything of his own, and tried to evade discipline with sockpuppets over and over.--Filll 18:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Err, User:Jason Gastrich? Homestarmy 19:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Evidence that Jesus existed
If I get 10,000 rolls of toilet paper, and write on each sheet "Jesus existed" and then throw the individual sheets from airplanes circling over various cities, this does not constitute very convincing evidence that Jesus existed. Jesus' image on a half eat cheese sandwich, or in a rust stain under the freeway, etc does not present convincing evidence. Someone who has a fever and hallucinates that Jesus spoke to them does not constitute convincing evidence. According to our best historical analyses, the evidence is weak. I personally believe that he might very well have existed, but that is irrelevant. An article that describes the reasons for people believing that Jesus was a myth, and the history of these beliefs is interesting and useful. So what is the problem?--Filll 18:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The relevant consensus is that of competent scholars, but it not "the wikipedia opinionW. We simply report on the consensus, and on the minority views too, giving the arguments. If we did a survey which asked whether Cicero ever met Plato I suspect most people wouldn't have a clue. They'd probably guess. Would that mean that we could say that there is no consensus about whether or not Cicero met Plato? I hope not. What most people think is irrelevant. It what most competent commentators think that matters. The problem is in defining who counts as competent and notable. I'm not a Christian, so I don't care whether JC existed or did not, but the fact is that the great majority of historians of the ancient world think that he did. That is the consensus. Paul B 18:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Which is why there are several articles about the historicity of Jesus, the historical Jesus, etc. And only one exploring this minority viewpoint. Which is completely appropriate; we explore all sides of the issue, and give the extra weight to the views that have the dominant consensus of experts behind them.--Filll 18:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * For example:


 * Jesus
 * Christology
 * Chronology of Jesus
 * Apostolic Succession of Jesus
 * Christian apologetics
 * Genealogy of Jesus
 * Historical Jesus
 * Historicity of Jesus
 * Biblical Jesus
 * Cultural background of Jesus
 * Death and Resurrection of Jesus
 * Jesus and women
 * Miracles of Jesus
 * Race of Jesus
 * Homosexual readings of Jesus and John
 * Islamic view of Jesus
 * Non-Christian views of Jesus
 * Pauline Christianity
 * Religious perspectives on Jesus

And this is a small sample; there are many many more. This is in spite of the fact that there is somewhat surprisingly little evidence that Jesus existed, outside of Christian writings of doubtful provenance. This is not controversial. It is taught in all major seminaries. It was a part of my Christian training in a Christian church. I taught it to my Sunday School classes. It is a mystery and interesting. So is there a problem with having ONE article describing this? I am certainly interested in this theory, discredited or not, mainstream or not. Let's not be afraid of this material. Let's hear it and document it.--Filll 18:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * My reply was actually supposed to follow from ElderStatesman's, so it seems to reply to you rather than to him, as it was intended to. The issue is not whether the article should exist, but how it should present the various myth theories. I can't for the life of me see why ElderStatesman is coming in for so much abuse. You seem to think he is a sockpuppet of a banned user, which might explain the animostity, but I see no resemblance to user:Raspor's style of writing. Paul B 18:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not the only one who sees a similarity. We might be wrong, but we will see. I have no problem with presenting a dozen or more myth theories, and the reasons people discount them. And I do not think anyone else does either.--Filll 18:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Good cop/bad cop. And Paul Barlow is which one?  As for ElderStatemen, here's our problem.  We have assumed good faith so many times with so many editors, and after a filing sockpuppet charges, we come to find out that we were fooled.  Mr. Barlow, I have no clue who you are, but you are new to these parts of Wikipedia (or so I see from your contributions list)--I'm frankly tired of this behavior on here.  I'm tired of Wikipedia's right-wing Christian bias.  And I'm tired of being fooled by sockpuppets.  I'll assume good faith with you, but I am definitely wary of this conversation.  Orangemarlin 19:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not trying to convince Fillletal/Orangemarlin/ the rest of the crowd of anything about Jesus. I think it's important to illuminate minority opinions such as the one presented here. What I can't understand and what smacks of hypocracy is the treatment of Intelligent Design vs. Jesus Myth. It's also quite interesting tha the same editor ... I'm sorry editorS ... feel that the minority position on the Jesus Myth should be presented fairly and without any challenge, but the minority position on Intelligent Design should be attacked in every other sentence.


 * It makes no difference to me what the rules are. I just would like to see some consistency in how the rules are applied. ElderStatesman 18:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to try to be nice. These two articles are completely separate, and you're missing the point of NPOV.  In the case of ID, the minority view has no merit, because it is overwhelmed by the preponderance of evidence on the side of Evolution and natural history.  The ID article is definitely NPOV, because it shares the description of exactly what ID is, and that it is a pseudoscience.  And it is a pseudoscience.  If someone wants to believe that a god, or little green men from Alpha Ceti VII, or even Zeus himself designed the world, then so be it, go to a church and believe in it.  But to call it science is facetious.  As for Jesus is a myth, it is merely an article on the mythology that might have lead to a Jesus being invented.  The point of this article is not to discuss his authenticity, that's in other articles.  This article does not attempt to give merit to one side or another, just that there are theories about a myth.  Nothing wrong with that.  You are using the canard of "NPOV" to attempt to destroy NPOV.  Isn't that how all disinformation starts.  Orangemarlin 19:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I am certainly not "new" in these parts. I wrote most of the history section of this article way back when (all the stuff on Muller, Frazer and early Jesus Myth proponents). I also wrote most of the article on Arthur Drews, the originator of the Christ Myth argument. This article oscillates between extreme proponents of both views - mythers who attempt to prove the myth argument and add screeds of "Da Vinci Code"-level history, and then Evangelicals who declare the whole article to be the Work of the Devil. The POV extremism comes from both sides. Paul B 19:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't spend hours investigating your editing background. As for the Myth proponents, I do not consider the Da Vinci Code people to be mythicists, unless you consider total hooey to be acceptable.  Orangemarlin 19:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What an odd reply. Given that Jesus is the DVC is presumed to exist, of course "the Da Vinci Code people" (whoever they are) are not mythicists. I was referring to the intellectual level of the more loopy pop-paganist theories. Paul B 19:43, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Odd reply? You wrote the Da Vinci group in the same subclause as the mythers.  I just assumed you lumped the two together.  As for your reverting ElderStatemen.  Good job, although it's pretty obvious what is going on.  Keep up the good work.  Orangemarlin 20:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Hypocrisy
Okay, it was said that all I wanted to do was start and argument and that I didn't want to edit. So, I editted. Of course, within minutes the edit was reverted. At least now, I've pretty well proven that there is one standard for Intelligent Design theory and another standard for the Jesus Myth hypothesis. When your "encyclopedia" is agenda driven, it will be difficult to maintain any semblance of fairness in your editting practices. ElderStatesman 20:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Raspor. Maybe you might invest in a dictionary sometime. And it might be nice if you actually learned how to read too, but I am not holding my breath. --Filll 21:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm still going to try to assume good faith with this editor, but it's wearing thin. I do not see what you are trying to prove.  Intelligent design is well written.  This article is well written.  Neither are trying to prove anything, but provide verifiable information.  Your edits are just plainly disruptive.  Orangemarlin 21:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Now, I admit, I wasn't very involved with the whole Raspor thing, but when I was watching that hubbub go down on Evolution and ID related type articles, I was under the impression that one of Raspor's distinctive traits was that he commonly couldn't type very well, that is, his comments generally had large amounts of spelling mistakes and the like, (more than just not spelling "edited" correctly) except for a few brief comments. I really don't think that just because someone's opinions are a bit conspiracy theoristy and has an opinion about this article which goes radically contrary to your own, that that person is always the same exact person whom you've had problems with in the past Filll. Homestarmy 21:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

In any case, he is clearly wrong about the bias. On the contrary, if Wikipedians used the word "theory" about intelligent design then they would essentially take side in the debate, the very use of that term is disputed by the scientific community. In the context this article, many historians consider this a weak theory, but as long as it doesn't undermine the foundations of science, namely methodological naturalism and more specifically the historical method, then you can call it a theory, even if it is a terribly bad theory. --Merzul 21:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Aye, agreed. The articles are being judged by the sphere they claim to belong to. This one's being judged as a historical theory, on the evidence or lack thereof for Jesus' reality. It does not claim to be a religion, and so the viewpoint of religious belief isn't relevant. ID claims to be science, and is judged as science. Creation according to Genesis is the view in relgion, and thus is judged by importance to religion. It's not that hard of a concept to judge things by the appropriate criteria, mentioning other notable views. Adam Cuerden talk 22:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I again point out the one common thread between these article and intelligent design: evidence. There is no evidence for intelligent design, and very little evidence that Jesus existed. And this article and intelligent design bring that out, as they should. So what is the problem?--Filll 00:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that the mainstream view of historians is that Jesus did exist historically. (Just as the mainstream view of scientists is that ID is not science.)  In general, if there is a mainstream consensus, an article should make that clear to its readers. -- Cat Whisperer 00:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Which the article clearly does. And of course, one must notice that this article is one of more than 20 on Jesus as a historical figure. So in the aggregate, there is no doubt that the vast majority of material in WP bolsters the mainstream view. Including this article. So everyone should just stop whining. It gets annoying after a while. --Filll 00:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I hate it when people compare chalk an chesse. As I said before the world's biologists reject ID as experiments and fossil finds continue to confirm the validity of evolution. Only Christians believe the bible gives a true picture of this guy Jesus in the sense that he was "God made flesh" - and even then they fight over the details (see the current thread on Talk:Christianity where one brand of "Christians" is trying to get other brands thrown off the page as "fake Christians"). Whatever the worlds historians think it is just a judgement call based on the available sparce evidence. Not the same thing as an evaluation of experiments and other current data that is constantly being updated and refined.
 * I wonder if historically such decisive views on the historicity of Jesus would have been handed down if for the best part of the last 2000 years it wasn't a crime (sometimes resulting in death) to question this. Christianity has also had a major strangle hold on the Western world's universities until very recently.
 * Just as with creationism - everyone left them to their little selves until they wanted it taught in school (as it used to be until about 100 years ago), the historicity of Jesus is an important topic as his life is being used by poweful forces to deny reproductive health assistance to women in the third world (to give just one example). Whether Caesar actually crossed the Rubicon is a nice academic puzzle that passes the world by. Whether there is sufficient evidence to support one faith system having the power to decide how others should live is an important point in today's world. That explains the current upsurge in interest in this subject along with a desire to explore the roots of a faith that has a lot going for it in the simple message.  Sophia  06:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I may be missing some of the background to this debate, being almost entirely uninterested in intelligent design (beyond, anyway, my dispute of its theological grounds), so I have very little understanding of what we're trying to compare this too.


 * However, I really don't quite get why various people seem to be bringing up their perceptions of the weight of the evidence for ID/Jesus-myth theory in this context. I suppose you guys will know that I dispute a fair bit of your opinions on the matter, whether it's that Jesus didn't exist, or that modern New Testament scholarship is distorted by the fact that until a century or so ago universities were often explicitly Christian institutions.  Surely that's entirely irrelevant for an encyclopedia which exists only to represent existing research from scholarly sources, and not to represent what editors perceive as truth.


 * It seems to me that both this article, and the ID article, should seek to represent a balanced account of what has been written in existing sources about the topic - so the ID article should represent proponents of the topic and opponents in proportion to how many there are in Reliable Sources. Similarly, this article should do that.  Neither should include original research, which would include using any stated fact as an argument against the theory if it has not been used in a reliable source as an argument against the theory (so, for example, I think that there is a very good explanation for why Paul does not mention the historical details of the life of Jesus very frequently - ie he never met him and spent a few days with those who had - but unless a reliable source has made that connection with the argument used by the Jesus-myth proponents).


 * My strong suspicion is that there is likely more criticism of ID in RS's than of the Jesus-myth theory, simply because although in both cases mainstream scholars basically dismiss the theory and don't naturally bother rebutting it, in the former it has become a controversy over teaching in schools. Therefore, one would expect, as per the policies of wikipedia, for ID to contain a greater amount of criticism than this article.


 * I do think it's a valid point that the intro should contain a comment about the theory being so much a minority one, in the same way that ID does.


 * But none of that has any relevance to how strong or otherwise any of us think this theory is, and I don't quite get why people keep bringing that up. TJ 09:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This is my point exactly. This is not a forum to prove or disprove the existance of Jesus or the validity of this hypothesis. Our personal feelings have no bearing on this issue. However it is unfair to ignore the consensus opinion in this case (on the grounds that it's "wrong") but at the same time dismantle the logic behind Intelligent Design on the grounds that it's not consensus.  All I'm proposing is a simple acknowledgement of the fact that this is a minority view.  After that feel free to post whatever can be referenced by research. I'd like to see Intelligent Design given the same treatment: ie. state that it's a minority position and then let them report the theory. But I'm quite sure that won't happen. ElderStatesman 13:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Your edit was reverted because you referred to the opinions of millions of Christians and Muslims, not to the majority of experts in the field. Millions of Hindus believe Krishna was real, but that's not a scholarly argument. Paul B 13:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you honestly not believe that some number among those two billion who aren't historians? Are you really and truly pretending to dispute that this is a mainstream view?  Do you really mean to posit that most Hindus don't believe Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure?  That suggestion is preposterous in the extreme and quite frankly I think it's a bit disingenuous. ElderStatesman 14:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Trying to enter a discussion here is like talking with parrots who just trot out their memorised phrases. That goes for "both sides". It matters what the historians think, not what the billions of non-experts may or may not think, so refer to them. Your inability to get the point of the Hindu reference is weirdly parallel to Orangenmarlin's inability to get the point of my Da Vinci Code reference. Perhaps you are his sockpuppet! Paul B 14:12, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * MIght I suggest a quick read of WP:CIVIL. I got your point about Da Vinci Code, I just didn't care.  It was a non-sequitor to the discussion.  As for a sockpuppet???  I guess you haven't read my background here.  I have spent quite a bit of time squashing the Raspor and VacuousPoet sockpuppets.  I'm pretty certain that ElderStatesmen is another.  I happen to mostly agree with what you're saying.  Biting my head off is rather strange on your part.  Orangemarlin 20:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems you can't understand jokes either, otherwise you would not make such an absurd comment about sockpuppetry. I will explain the DVC reference, which you quite clearly did not understand, as your "non-sequitor" point indicates. I referred to "Da Vinci Code-level" analysis; that is analysis at the intellectual level of the book. The reason to refer to that particular book is that it is full of garbled claims about pagan religion linked to aspects of western culture, along with conspiracy theories about alteration of historical evidence by the Catholic church. This article has regularly been host to similar claims. Paul B 22:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what your content dispute here is about now, but "It seems you can't understand jokes either" is a completely needless personal attack. I'm also stunned by the level of cultural ignorance you are assuming, when he already said he got the reference, he probably just disagrees with your judgement. --Merzul 00:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It is a response to an editor who clearly cannot "get" the points that are being made in the debate, and who, because of this, contributes to the irrationality of the debates on this page. The misuse of "non-sequitor" is another example of the same problem, as are the rapid accusations of sockpuppetry (as comparisons of the prose style of Raspor and ElderStatesman should suggest). If you actually read the exchange you will see how he did not get the reference, which has nothing to do with not knowing what the DVC is about. Paul B 01:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I did read that part of the exchange, and this indicates he did get it. In any case, I think we can all agree I was immensely stupid to put my nose into this discussion. So, now that we have reached consensus, we can put it behind us and all be friends. Sounds good, I vote love; and I agree with your last edit by the way! --Merzul 02:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you really trying to tell me that you don't think there are any Christian or Muslim historians? Are you trying to convince me that this article represents the mainstream consensus opinion? ElderStatesman 17:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Noone is trying to tell you any such thing. They are either historians or not - whether they are Christian, Muslim, Atheist or Druids Paul B 18:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * ElderStatesman, the article at present does acknowledge that this is a minority theory. See the section on "Mainstream Scholarly reception".  There's a legitimate case for arguing that something to that effect should be in the lead - I'd agree - but the way to sort that out isn't to go on some rampage of personal attacks against various editors.  I am confident that all of the editors of this article are genuinely trying to edit in good faith.  Of course they're biased - they are human, and bias is inherent to the human condition, including the human condition of you and I - but they're not actively trying to promote nonsense, and if engaged with in reasoned dialogue, they're likely to change their mind - much more likely than if you start heaping insult upon insult at them.  And if they don't, and they don't manage to persuade you to change your mind about the edits you'd like to make, you can appeal to various conflict resolution parts of wikipedia.  Charging in here insulting people is not only rude and offensive, it's also counterproductive.  TJ 14:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I apologize if I've offended anyone and I don't mean to be offensive, rude or counter-productive. Please understand that it can be frustrating trying to understand the rules here. Quite frankly "hypocracy" is the only word that comes to mind when I compare the treatment of Jesus to the treatment of Intelligent Design. (For late-comers, I'm not invested "pro" or "con" on either issue, but unfairness does irk me.) At the very least this article should have a disclaimer of some sort at the outset. What the Jesus Myth and Intelligent Design have in common is that both are minority views. In one case, the minority view is obliterated throughout the article. In the other, the minority opinion is presented without even a disclaimer. Don't we agree that there should be some sort of standard applied evenly? ElderStatesman 17:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The Intelligent Design article is not at issue here. Stick to this one please. Paul B 18:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

ElderStatesman, can you please cite some sources by mainstream historians claiming that Jesus Myth historians are undermining the historical discipline? If not, then that's the difference between the two articles. -Merzul 21:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, I looked deeper into the sources myself, and the only objection one could raise is that modern "Jesus myth" scholars are not professional historians, some are notable (atheist) philosophers like Michael Martin and Paul Kurtz. The reviewer of Doherty's book while pointing out many methodological flaws in the work, states that "it is not a quack theory." In short, this is not comparable to intelligent design, but the article could point out that the scholars supporting this theory are not professional historians. I will try something in the lines proposed by TJ. --Merzul 00:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Very good balancing of my attempt by TJ, I was probably a bit too harsh. --Merzul 10:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I still don't get it...
It's probably just my ignorance of biblical studies, but I still don't get the logic of Wisdom. Is the argument that since the Q sayings are not personified Wisdom, they could not be a source of a Jesus myth? Or is it a more specific criticism of Wells? In any case, perhaps this could be made clearer? --Merzul 03:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Doherty and Price (maybe others) believe that the sayings were not attributed to a human (i.e., Jesus), but instead personified Wisdom, who speaks the sayings in things I cited in my other post. To give an example, Doherty and Price believe that Q might have said this originally, "Wisdom said: Blessed are the poor..."  This is because they do not interact with more cautious scholarship about Q's genre.  Because Q was in the genre of "instruction," and not "proverb collection," it was almost certainly attributed to a person, with which scholarly reconstructions of Q agree: "And raising his eyes to his disciples he said: Blessed are the poor..."  Clear, or no? Zeichman 16:44, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for explaining, and yes, the cited source for Doherty does argue something like that. "This formative stage of Q scholars call "sapiential," for it is essentially an instructional collection of the same genre as traditional "wisdom" books like Proverbs, though in this case with a radical, counterculture content. Later indications (as in Luke 11:49) suggest that the words may have been regarded as spoken by the personified Wisdom of God (see Part Two), and that the Q preachers saw themselves as her spokespersons." However, this is not in the article text. The article only says that Q is a collection of wisdom (not Wisdom) sayings, so the criticism that you added seemed irrelevant to me. Thanks again for explaining, I finally get it. --Merzul 20:44, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Q Document
I made some changes on the page about the Q document, and was asked to clarify on the talk page. Doherty and Price (incorrectly) suggest that Q was originally attributed to the Hebrew figure of personified Wisdom (Hebrew: Chokmah, Greek: Sophia), present in Proverbs 9 and Q/Luke 11:49. This is in part due to their incorrect identification of Q1's genre as a "proverb collection," while in fact it is more appropriately placed in the genre of "Ancient Near Eastern Instruction." (Kloppenborg, Formation of Q, 284-286, though the entire chapter is useful) ANE instructions, Kloppenborg observes, are consistently attributed to a human and not a divine figure such as Wisdom. Price and Doherty have each taken a step backward academically on their identification of Q's genre and subsequently its founder. Additionally, the claim that Q lacked a narrative is incorrect, though the bulk of it seems to be situated in chapters 3-7, focusing largely on the relationship between John the Baptist and Jesus. Admittedly, in comparison to the canonical gospels, Q's narrative is far less prominent, though clearly more so than in the surviving form of the Gospel of Thomas. I hope this is more clear now. I would also like to add that the heavy dependence on radical literature for this article, by means of thinly-veiled introduction clauses such as "Advocates of the JM hypothesis argue..." is in defiance of Wikipedia's prohibition against such literature as secondary sources. Zeichman 15:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Christianity, Astrology And Myth', (2000), Oak Hill Free Press, California, USA. ISBN:0 9518796 1 8
The book in question is essentially the text of my MA thesis entitled, 'Pagan Ritual And Myth, In The Early Christian Church'. It does indeed cover many aspects of the Jesus Myth, Christian festival et al...As an example, the first eight chapters are headed: (1)Rebirth of a Myth, (2)Christianity And The Sun God, (3)The Dying And Resurrected Saviour God,(4)Stars And Their Portents, (5)The Virgin Mother Of The World, (6)The Cave And Stable Myth, (7)Slaughter Of The Innocents, (8)Miracles...................etc. There are 16 chapters, 230pp, inc' Bibliography, and Index.The work is therefore accademically sound, and relevant to many diverse aspects of Christianity. Larry Wright, 28/03/07

List of books
There was a huge list of books (references and further reading) in this article. Most of the references are cited in the body of the article. The further reading seems to me to be a rather biased selection. I don't think this massive un-annotated book list belongs in the article or helps much, but in case anyone wants to salvage some of it, here it is. NBeale 12:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

(Further reading)

 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832
 * Seznec, Jean. 1972, The Survival of the Pagan Gods, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691017832

Thoughts about references
When I see that list above, all I can think is that it really isn't a "small minority" of scholars think that Jesus might not have existed. Yet when you read the Historicity of Jesus article, you'd think I belong in a tiny insignificant minority made up of crazy POV atheists. But setting aside POV, the evidence of his existence seems weak at best, yet there seems to be this preponderance of belief that he did. Are most scholars accepting his existence just on faith alone? Are certain scholars afraid to publish works that might be in opposition to his existence? Or is the evidence clear cut and I'm just missing it? The more I read, the less reliable I feel the evidence is. It's funny, but there is little doubt that Julius Caesar was a real person. Jesus, who might have had influence over the Roman Empire as much as Caesar, has significantly less documentable evidence. If the evidence is not there, then we should be using more of the references above in this article and the historicity article. Here's a 2000 year old myth, whose foundation might be just nothing. Orangemarlin 17:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not very experienced personally with this scholars issue, (I mostly have just watched the talk pages rather than participate) but from every debate over the people in these references that i've read here, it has always turned out that almost none of them were scholars in a field relevant to the issue of Jesus' historicity after some investigation by people who know how to investigate this stuff. I doubt I could give a very effective rational for this outcome of the debate myself, but if you want specifics, i'm just saying, somebody here will know about it. Homestarmy 19:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * And most of the "Jesus was real" scholars come from Bible colleges - or those with close links to the church. Hmmmm - but then we have the "Christian scholars can bracket their faith" discussion despite the fact that to be a Christian mean to put God/Jesus before all else - square that circle. Then 1650 years ago a church history was put together by Eusebius who was aknowledged to be a poor historian - hmmmmmm. So why do most people assume it's all true? Probably for the same reasons that 100 years ago most people thought Adam & Eve and Noah's Ark were historical events. Sophia  20:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict)
 * That list consists of just 31 writers, of which at least 16 are certainly not proponents of the Jesus-Myth theory (I don't quite get NBeale's accusation of bias, BTW), and there are quite a few more that seem likely to be providing background information rather than expressing a view on the theory (for example - Bartlett, John R. (1973). The First and Second Books of the Maccabees. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press,Beard, Mary; John North and Simon Price (1998). Religions of Rome Volume 1: A History. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, Beck, Roger L.. (2003). "Mithras". The Oxford Classical Dictionary (revised 3rd edition): 991–992. Ed. Simon Hornblower and Antony Spawforth. Oxford: Oxford University Press.) There are several that I do not know whether or not they are proponents of the theory.  Adding to that, the number of writers who really do not qualify as scholarly - e.g. Freke with his BA, etc - and you've only got about 5 writers (give or take, I haven't counted exactly) who could possibly be described as scholarly who promote the Jesus-Myth theory.


 * As for your personal theories about the strength of the myth, they are irrelevant. I have no desire to discuss the merits or otherwise of this or any other theory on article talk pages.  If you wish to learn more about our point of view, I suggest you read a scholarly book on the subject (there aren't many written against the Jesus-Myth theory, since most scholars see the subject as below them, but there are a couple).  Our opinions on the strength of the case is irrelevent to wikipedian policies; we must simply give a balanced account of all that has been said about the Jesus-Myth theory, with weight attributed to how much has been written for/against the theory.TJ 20:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, I'm now convinced. Orangemarlin 23:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Did I anywhere indicate that it was my intention to convince you? I think improving this encyclopedia is a worthwhile thing to do, but I have better things to do than have irrelevant arguments over the internet. TJ 00:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Then don't bother wasting everyone else's time if you think you're so important and critical questions from people are not worthy of your time and/or energy. I'm sarcastic, because you think babbling on about the numbers of people who may or may not believe that this Jesus thing is real or not is critical.  All it takes is one person getting the facts right will outweigh the opinion of 100's of others .  I don't think you personally answered my original question.  Where's the proof?  Orangemarlin 16:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * (Inserted between Orangemarlin and Paul Barlow).


 * I nowhere stated that I'm "so important and critical questions from people are not worthy of your time and/or energy". Please do not insult me like that.  Read WP:Civil.  What I stated is that I am uninterested in having irrelevant conversations over the internet.  When people argue over the internet, they - almost without exception - do so in a way that is far less courteous and considerate than they would treat one another in real life.  If you really are that interested in my opinions, then next time you're in Birmingham, UK, come visit me, and I'll happily discuss them with you face to face.  If not, please stop insulting me.


 * I am interested in discussions relating to wikipedia policy - that is, questions about how many scholars. They are constructive and relevant to improving the article.  I am not generally interested in presenting my own opinions (beyond the necessary amount which one must in order to present oneself, with the biases we all have, honestly), or hearing the opinions of other wikipedians.  They are irrelevant to the policies of wikipedia, which is concerned not with the opinions of writers, nor even with "the truth", but rather with proportionally representing the views of scholars in accordance with how many of them hold to a view in published literature.  Your comment that "All it takes is one person getting the facts right will outweigh the opinion of 100's of others" is therefore, as far as wikipedia goes, completely wrong.  If you're in any doubt about this, I suggest you read WP:NPOV. TJ 20:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The page is not for debate. Many historical figures are far less well attested than Jesus, but no-one doubts their existence. Of course there is a difference. They are not credited as being God Incarnate, which is rather a whopping claim to make about a guy, but making the claim about someone is quite separate from the question of whether that someone existed. Purely mythological figures are not attested in the way that Jesus is, with lots of quirky circumstantial details and the very specific placing of him in a political, social and cultural context. The "numbers of people" is important, as long as those people are specialists in the field. That the policy. Paul B 16:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Name one figure that is far less attested than Jesus whose existence isn't doubted. Dionyseus 17:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * From Roman history, which is the area I'm most familiar with, any number of people fall into that category. To take an article I happen to have edited recently, how about Ventidius Cumanus, governor of Judaea c. AD 50? He's mentioned by two extant authors, Josephus and Tacitus; both are writing about half a century after the events they're describing, and they're seriously inconsistent with each other. But nothing I read while working on the article suggested any doubts about Cumanus' existence. Some people might conclude that neither Jesus nor Cumanus existed, but in covering either position Wikipedia needs to give an accurate impression of its scholarly popularity. EALacey 18:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Are Josephus and Tacitus the only sources? According to that article, both sources give different accounts about Cumanus.  If these are the only sources for Cumanus's existence, everyone should doubt Cumanus.  Dionyseus 18:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * We are now way off topic - but I am interested :o)! If you come from a scientific background it seems like shoddy work to base so much on such shaky ground. If it were an experiment the results would have error bars that dwarfed the data and everyone would know to treat it with a pinch of salt. As I am learning the world of history is not like that. It doesn't help that in several threads on this page the Jesus-myth idea is linked to creationsim and lunatics which has raised the temperature here a little. The creationism charge is particularly off the mark and I'm afraid does make me completely discount the posts of anyone who uses that analogy - biased I know but hey....
 * All we need to do here is report the current situation - most academia does not take it seriously etc etc as we currently do. Orangemarlin's only crime was to muse on this talk page - never a good idea - and TJ's reply can come across as dismissive but I guess he probably just wanted to stop the thread wandering too far off track. It's probably best if we confine the scientific method vs historical method discussions to user talk pages in future!  Sophia  20:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I did actually want to apologise for the tone of my initial [|edit] to this thread. I can't remember why I sounded so short in it, but the tone was out of order.  (I  stand by the content, though - as in I don't really have time to muse on these talk pages.)  I wonder - I may just find it irritating that I try to avoid arguing for my opinions on this talk page (partly due to not finding it constructive, partly because that way lies really unpleasant commentss from both sides on this kind of forum, in my experience), but those who disagree with me don't - meaning I find things offensive but don't reply and find that irritating (though it is I guess my fault).  But I hope I had a better excuse than that - I can't remember what had just happened when I wrote that. So apologies for that comment. TJ 20:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I should never muse I guess. But my original question was why do the few scholars (OK, we can debate the question) who think that this mythical character was, in fact, mythical are quickly dismissed, when the historical database is lacking.  Anyways, didn't mean to get everyone up in arms about it.  It was a serious question, and I felt completely condescended to by TJ's reply.  I guess my expectation was "well, here's why."  It wasn't worth the effort, because Christians get a bit defensive.  Orangemarlin 19:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I was being condescending, was out of order, and I don't have any way to excuse that. (Perhaps there are a few reasons which might reduce my guilt).  Nonetheless, I don't really want to debate these issues, partly because wikipedia takes up too much of my time as it is, and partly because I don't trust any internet debate to not get nasty.  It's not defensiveness - I honestly don't feel remotely insecure in my faith about this topic, or anything like that - it's just that I don't really want to debate.  I don't trust internet debates not to get nasty, so I rarely take part in them, and to be honest wikipedia is being far too effective as a way of avoiding doing work as it is!  TJ 23:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I'd better add to that the fact that I'm not saying that no-one else should muse on this talk page - just that I don't want to. I think I now remember that I unfairly read your original comment more as related to the article in a "we should be respresented because we're right, contrary to NPOV", rather than musing and genuine questioning on the subject.  But that may just be my imagination, since I remain confused as to how the tone of that comment came to be, and especially so if that were not the case.  Perhaps I'm just nastier than I realise... I dunno, I guess we all look at ourselves through rose tinted glasses.  Perhaps I had some better excuse.  Dunno.  Anyway, regardless, I'm sorry.  TJ 00:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Propose merging in article History of the jesus as myth theory
There is significant overlap between the two articles: History of the jesus as myth theory appears to be a fork created in January, which has had no subsequent edits from its creator Bob2227. Is there any reason why the two should remain separate? Thanks, Clicketyclack 19:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No. case closed. Orangemarlin 19:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Please clarify: are you replying "no" to the merge proposal, or "no" to the question of whether the two should remain separate? Clicketyclack 00:26, 29 April 2007(UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure he's agreeing with you as I do too. Sophia  07:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I was unclear. I really was answering the one question you asked, which is should they remain separate.  I said no.  So....Merge.  Orangemarlin 07:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge. Dionyseus 18:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge Paul B 19:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge Thanatosimii 00:26, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Tried to find something I could merge in here, but all I could find that wasn't already covered here was a few assertions marked as unsourced. If anyone wants to go dig through the edit history they may well find something I missed, but I've left the page as a redirect to this one for now. Also removed the merge template from this page. Clicketyclack 14:18, 4 May 2007 (UTC)