Talk:Christian alternative rock

Fountains of Wayne
I've taken out Fountains of Wayne as one of the bands that "dominate" this scene. I don't know if the members are Christian or not, but I've never seen them described as Christian rock or whatever before, and a quick Google doesn't turn up any evidence that they have been. (I might add - I've never listened to them closely, but I've not noticed any Christian element in what I have heard) --Camembert

Modern Alternative CCM
I think its a little incorrect to be calling newsboys, dctalk etc alternative. These bands are plainly considered mainstream 'ccm' for a long time. All the bands mentioned are very firmly on major ccm labels and are massively supported by the ccm industry. Perhaps better suggestions would be The Danielson Familie and Pedro The Lion.

Modern Alternative CCM
Agree with the previous poster, Newsboys might have alternative links via Steve Taylor, but for the most part their music is very mainstream CCM. Ditto for DC Talk. I would be hesitant to say Danielson Familie and Pedro the Lion "dominate" the current scene though because they are still little known among most of the alternative Christian music fanbase. Perhaps Delirious? would qualify here? They are certainly alternative in sound, and have a pretty consistent fanbase. I would also agree that Fountains of Wayne are not "Christian" alternative, although some or all members may claim the faith. Their music doesn't contain or suggest the gospel message, although it is quite good power pop. --GBrady

List
I think the list should be taken out. It dominates the whole page, and it doesn't even link to the Wikipedia pages for any of the artists. --Shippy Mandy

Adding an external link
Thoughts on adding this new CCM resource to the external list? www.ccmnews.net (Jdingman 07:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC))

Alternative rock
Merged this article to alternative rock. Neither is particularly meaty, and this makes disambiguation from Alternative far easier.--MikeJ9919 23:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge
Propose a merger or re-direct with Christian rock on the basis that this article is ultimately redundant as there is already a seperate article on Christian rock and Christian hip hop. - Binary TSO ??? 04:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Strongly Disagree. OK, so it's not a vote. ACM is sufficiently different from Christian rock that they essentially have two different sets of bands and essentially two distinct fan bases. It's like suggesting that since modern rock and R&B have the same roots that we should merge those articles. ACM tends to have more mainstream followers while Christian rock appeals almost entirely to those who are Christian. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There are not enough sources to clarify or reinforce "ACM" as a distinctive term. The definition provided in the intro seems to consist of original research and it lacks any real definitive explanation. The only distinction provided is that "emphasizes musical style over lyrical content". That alone is not a sufficient difference, and is practically impossible to determine due to the subjective nature of the definition. - Binary TSO  ??? 12:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed; the definition on this page is inaccurate, at least as the Christian music industry tends to use the terms. Generally speaking, "Christian Alternative Rock" is simply alternative rock by a Christian band from a Christian perspective. The single citation to defend the distinction is both relatively old (2006; this is actually quite a while ago, given the changes in the Christian music industry over the past decade) and an undefended original assertion not based on legitimate research. Walter, your case is inherently circular in that any Christian rock (or even rap or hip-hop, according to this page) artist that acquires a decent number of "mainstream" followers somehow becomes an entirely different genre, having once been Christian rock but now being ACM. Take Skillet as an example; are they a former Christian rock band and current "ACM" band because they have acquired a bigger mainstream audience due to greater success the last few years? So what you're saying is that "ACM" is different from Christian rock in that the groups are popular with some non-Christians? I don't buy that as a genre distinction. Christian rap and Christian hip-hop are no more "Christian alternative rock" than secular rap is "alternative rock"; major changes need to be made to this article. I support merging with other articles. Nolewr (talk) 22:14, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think you understand what I was saying. I'm not saying that if an individual band appeals to a mainstream audience (Skillet (band), etc.) that this makes them part of the ACM scene. I'm saying that if you take the groups that make-up the ACM scene as a whole and look at their relative popularity to the mainstream when compared to the bands that make up the Christian rock scene as a whole, you would find that ACM hold more appeal. Individual bands are always an exception. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand exactly what you mean, but the problem is that your definition is circular. You can't say that Alternative Christian Rock is defined by its popularity in the "mainstream" and then point to Christian bands that you would then consider ACR as evidence for this. My point is that the definition you are presenting is entirely flawed and circular. Alternative Christian Rock is Alternative Rock from a Christian perspective. Period. Your attempts to define it based on mainstream popularity rather than genre is illogical and untenable.Nolewr (talk) 21:26, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think you do understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that an individual band's inclusion in ACM is defined by their popularity in the mainstream at all. In fact that's exactly what I said. I was relating popularity of ACM as a whole. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:40, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Found more sources
If we're accepting "alternative CCM" as a synonym, AllMusic has a genre page with a brief paragraph about it, and Jars of Clay is said to have been the "breakout band" of the movement in the '90s. I'll keep an eye out for more substantial sources, but for now these might help expand the article a bit, as well as establish notability.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 16:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * As long as that doesn't make Jars of Clay a punk band since you have stated that all alternative music is a direct descendant of punk. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:29, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Did I really say that? If so, I hereby modify it to "some are punk-influenced", and Jars of Clay is definitely not one of them. That issue aside, are the references okay?--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 18:49, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Origins
Where would you like the sourced placed? I can think of a few places, but it's not clear what the issue is or where the other influences are listed. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:23, 8 May 2017 (UTC)