Talk:Christian metal/Archive 1

Jerusalem the first Christian metal band?
This statement found in the description of Christian Metal is simply wrong! The Resurrection Band (Rez Band) was first and is far more well known than Jerusalem (but Jerusalem was indeed a great band). If anyone doubts they are Heavy Metal go listen to "Military Man." The Rez Band are the FOUNDERS of Christian Metal, yet they aren't even LISTED. I think more research is in order. Spellsing 09:27 21 Sep 2005

I think the section on the origins of Christian metal are too small for sure. Needs more detail. I'd also think Barnabas merits mention as at the very least influences that led to Christian metal if not one of its earlier practitioners. Of course, naming the "first" band in any genre is difficult. Who's the first Christian rock artist? Most say Larry Norman, but U.K. bands doing the same Mersey style as the Beatles were around back in 1963, 6 years before Upon this Rock. They called it "gospel beat music"..one of them was The Crossbeats.A not very publicized album by a group called Sons of Thunder beat out Norman in America by a year or two. And if we would include bands that performed but didn't release a record, who knows? GBrady (talk) 20:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd have to agree somewhat, though most "sources" for this are in old magazines and such, which can be hard to find. And I do agree with you about Larry Norman not being the first, as there were "gospel rock" bands well before his time here in the United States as well. Most just consider him the "father of Christian rock music" and not really the creator of it. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 01:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Larry Norman is called the Father of rock because Rez/Resurrection band (formed 1972), Jerusalem (formed 1975) ,Petra (1972) weren't even together as bands when Larry Norman was touring around the world. Larry Norman was in a group called PEOPLE! . Picked up by capitol records. He left the record company because they wouldn't let him name the album "people need a whole lot more of Jesus and a lot less rock n roll". This was in 1968! Way before Rez, Petra, Jerusalem or any others. Larry Norman then made the very first nationally produced Christian rock album titled "upon this rock" in 1969. This also was before the other mentioned bands were even formed. This was before any other group had any Christian rock albums, no less a world wide distributed album. This is why Larry Norman was named the father of Christian rock. The very first Christian rock album was titled "Upon this Rock" in 1969 by Larry Norman and he was recording Christian rock music and playing on the stage as early as 1964. Rez, Petra, and Jerusalem would all admit larry norman was the very first Christian rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.20.167.214 (talk) 13:10, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

"Genre of the Christian music industry"?
I wasn't too keen on the description:


 * "a genre of the Christian music industry"

because King's X (and possibly other bands) have made a major contribution to the scene while trying hard not to be just another cog in the CCM machine. We could mention the Christian music industry, but perhaps in a later paragraph - it would be interesting to see some information about how the industry looked on white metal before it became another commodity that was in demand.

My contention is that the genre does not solely depend on the industry and so I've removed the direct link (although adding a link to the musical genre page.

Basswulf 07:32 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

Whiteheart
Why was the Whiteheart link removed? They are a band with a long history producing music in the Christian metal genre and who have been widely influential in doing so. --Basswulf 15:41 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

As a fan of both Christian metal and Whiteheart, Gersmehl's band was NOT heavy metal. Rock, yes...metal no.GBrady (talk) 20:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

King's X
Were King's X really metal? I wouldn't consider them metal.


 * I think they definitely fall within the scope of 'metal', certainly within a broad definition of the term (such as 'music for headbanging' ;-). They have definitely been widely considered as part of 'christian metal'. Out of interest, where would you put them? Basswulf 11:31, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If King's X isn't "metal" what on God's green earth would you call them? Have you ever listened to King's X? I have everything they ever did and I assure you they are metal.Spellsing9:23 21 Sep 2005


 * They aren't Christian, as their music was never meant to openly reflct their religion or to spread Christianity. Metal, sure. Christian, heck no. IronCrow 04:56, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I just heard some of King's X's older stuff... I don't know, but it does seem very Christian-oriented. And the circumstances around the band kind of indicates they weren't. Regardless, I think that giving them a mention in this article or the Christianity in Mainstream metal article would be good, as they did help to spur Christian metal. IronCrow (talk) 05:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I'll add my two cents. I have all of their albums up to Tape Head.  Their lyrics were definately on the Christian side of things.  And constant press in HM help people think they were Christian.  When Van Pelt first interviewed Pinnick about the gay rumors was when I began to question things.  To me it seems that King's X would keep the Christian vibe going because it sold.  Some I know will disagree with this viewpoint.  I'll leave that kind of question if they belong on the page to others.  But I would have to ask if King's X is included should Galactic Cowboys be included?  They were even featured on HM Video Magazine once.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 19:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I see no reason not to include Galactic Cowboys. Their last two albums have distinct Christian overtones, and the band toured the Christian bookstore circuit actively during that time.  In fact, there are YouTube videos of some of those shows.  King's X was strongly Christian early on.  They sung about abstinence (Goldilox), abortion (Legal Kill), and prayer (Over My Head), as well as showing spiritual perspectives during their less overtly-Christian songs. Mpbahr (talk) 03:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Confusing sentence
I was confused by this sentence: ``Most heavy metal fans do not consider this to be a real form of metal, as they believe the music is more important than lyrics and the lyrics do not define a genre.''

Is this suggesting that the lyrics in Christian metal are somehow metal while the music is not? Isn't it closer to the other way round?

For the moment I've shortened it to ``Most heavy metal fans do not consider this to be a real form of metal.''


 * That's pretty much... not right. I (and lots of other Metal fans) put Christian Metal and Secular Metal into different catagories. IronCrow 04:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

No, u have i backwards-the music is metal but the lyrics rn'tMighty Zeus 22:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What makes lyrics "metal"? If anything, telling somone they can't be metal and sing about Jesus Christ is a pretty unmetal act IMO --E tac 22:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Switchfoot as "metal"
I don't really think that Switchfoot could be defined as "metal". Plus, what about the ones like POD, Thousand Foot Krutch (they're definitely more metal than Switchfoot?
 * I get the impression they are just a rock band. Most Christian metalheads (including me) do not think POD, Thousand Foot Krutch, etc., are metal, but they are Nu metal, which is sort of a problem genre anyway, so it's probably best to leave those here.  I'm going to remove Switchfoot though. --Idont Havaname 21:18, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * So, what, we're supposed to make a "List of Christian Nu metal bands"? Come on.


 * How about a list of Christian rock bands?
 * Yup. We have this.  See List of Christian bands and artists by genre.  It has List of rock CCM artists, List of hard rock CCM artists, and List of alternative rock CCM artists. --Idont Havaname 01:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, I just made List of Christian rock bands redirect to List of rock CCM artists, to eliminate confusion. --Idont Havaname 02:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Me, I don't classify Switchfoot or Thousand Foot Krutch as metal. There more... rock. But I consider P.O.D. metal, or even nu-metal. Which is the same technically. --70.71.202.54 19:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't consider TFK metal, and DEFNITLY NOT Switchfoot, they are WAY too light to even be in the topic. TFK is more Rock, with hints of Rap in their earlier works. POD is metal-oriented, but it's more Rapcore/Hardcore. Touniqeut = Metal   Switchfoot = Rock. IronCrow 04:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I would consider Switchfoot to be rock. TFK, POD, and Pillar are all nu metal to me. (I see POD and Pillar as being closer to the sound of Linkin Park than say Nickelback.)GBrady (talk) 20:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Clean-up
The prose on this page badly needs tightening and trimming. Could someone who knows about Christian Metal not have a good look at it?
 * That's exactly what I've been doing, and a few others have been doing that too. I've been a Soae (Christian metal email list) subscriber for years, and I'm a pretty big fan of some Christian metal bands.  --Idont Havaname 01:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm working on it. --supmyman7


 * Christian Metal/Rock/Punk/Hardcore/Etc is my favorite. I'll try to keep a lookout for news regarding bands that have influences of their own taht mark the Christian Metal scene unique. IronCrow 04:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Black Sabbath
Does Black Sabbath deserve an honorable menction on this page? In their photoshoots they are always seen wearing crosses. Then there is their song After Forever. 


 * I think that a person who drinks other people's spit or kicks baby gogs on stage is not a christian. IMHO they're pics of wearnig crosses are lie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.26.42.81 (talk) 17:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Nope. If you look over the Black Sabbath member bios, particularly the other works of Ozzy, you'll see why they aren't.  I looked at some of the other lyrics on LetsSingIt, and it didn't look like they thought too highly of Christianity.  Thanks for asking on the talk page first without adding them to the main article, though. --Idont Havaname 01:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The 4 original Black Sabbath members are all Christian. Ozzys little "prince of darkness" image is just that, an image. And what lyrics are you talking about that they dont think too highly of Christianity anyway? I wanna see. --Arm
 * I disagree this is one of the few bands who practice what they preach Slayer and Venom sing about Satan, but they not practicers of the dark arts. The 4 orrignal Sabbath members all dabbled in witchcraft.


 * I'm guessing he was referring to "Under The Dying Sun", which starts off by saying "Well, I don't want no Jesus freak to tell me what it's all about", but then it says "No black magician telling me to cut my soul out". Basically, the song's about not conforming to peer pressure and stuff. Black Sabbath didn't really endorse the devil in any way. I think they probably should be mentioned (Specifically, yeah, the song "After Forever" (Maybe as the first White Metal song?)).


 * Please leave a username when making such strong statemant as that. The fact is all metal traces back to Gospel music which traces back to slave spiritual music, written for non other than:  GOD! Iamvery


 * Oh really? You obviously haven't done your homework. Let's check out the lyrics for "After Forever" from "Master of Reality" (1971). Read 'em and weep. Pasajero 23:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you ever thought about your soul - can it be saved? Or perhaps you think that when you're dead you just stay in your grave Is God just a thought within your head or is he a part of you? Is Christ just a name that you read in a book when you were in school?

When you think about death do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool? Would you like to see the Pope on the end of a rope - do you think he's a fool? Well I have seen the truth, yes I've seen the light and I've changed my ways And I'll be prepared when you're lonely and scared at the end of our days

Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say If they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to love

Is your mind so small that you have to fall In with the pack wherever they run Will you still sneer when death is near And say they may as well worship the sun?

I think it was true it was people like you that crucified Christ I think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced Will you be so sure when your day is near, say you don't believe? You had the chance but you turned it down, now you can't retrieve

Perhaps you'll think before you say that God is dead and gone Open your eyes, just realize that he's the one The only one who can save you now from all this sin and hate Or will you still jeer at all you hear? Yes! I think it's too late.


 * Don't you dare putting Black Sabbath on the Christian Metal page. They are clearly NOT christian.


 * uh i dont really konw enough about Black Sabbath to konw weather theyre Christian or not but i know that in one of their songs the lyrics go something like "my name is Lucifer; take my hand". anyways even the name doesnt sound very Christian. BLACK Sabbath? i donno if this makes any sense to anyone but thats just what i think about it.


 * Most of Black Sabbath's songs are about how Satan is bad and dire warnings, and about how Satan makes everything all crappy. See the songs Black Sabbath, Hand Of Doom, Electric Funeral, Children Of The Grave, Lord Of This World (sung from Satan's perspective, it's a warning not to waste your life), and of course the aforementionedly awesome AFTER FOREVER... they don't sing about God all the time but they definitely have a few songs with pro-Christian messages. They're never singing about how Satan is awesome or something... and We Sold Our Soul For Rock And Roll is excessively tongue in cheek. PolarisSLBM 03:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah they had a few songs back in the day warning of the wrath of God and such, but if you new anything about black sabbath you'd know they were hevily into occult black magic type stuff and drugs so to consider them a christian band is just wrong. They also said the purpouse of the band was to write lyrics to scare people and stuff not to write music to honor Christ or songs about Christianity.  They could have just thought singing about the wrath of God might scare some people, it doesn't mean they believed in Him or more importantly had a personal relationship with him, which is what makes one a Christian.  So if anything you could put somthing about them in the contreversy section about them being a non-christian band that wrote some songs that could be in agreement with the christian faith. - E_tac


 * Sabbath was definitely not a Christian metal band. Sure, they wrote a few Christian-themed songs, but they also wrote lyrics about Norse mythology, Satanism, witchs, ect. These guys were mainly interested in occult and spiritual stuff, so they just wrote lyrics about that. It's not like they were trying to promote their faith or something.--DarkPresence 17:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

- TheTacoOne —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 22:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The song Mr. Crowley, while not necessarily being anti-Christian, glorifies someone who denounced religion and is commonly referred to as the most evil man ever to live. Furthermore, I remember my dad telling me a long time ago that Ozzy wanted that song to be perfect, flawless and an outstanding tribute to this man. He made Randy Rhoads retake it some huge number of times because he was so focused on the song. Whether or not members of Black Sabbath are God-fearing, I certainly wouldn't refer to them as Christian. I won't claim to know intimate knowledge about the other members though. I don't really like Sabbath that much myself. I lean more towards Ronnie James than Ozzy.


 * "Hand Of Doom" and "Electric Funeral" don't deal with Satan at all. The former is about heroin addiction, and the latter about a nuclear holocaust and its aftermath. The song "Black Sabbath" deals with satan from a horror movie point of view. In sum "Lord Of This World" express how humankind was supposed to be all loving and good and it isn't. It is not a religious song. Religion is used as a way to express that mankind is fucked up. While "After Forever" is a reflection of life after dead from a a Christian perspective, in "NIB" Ozzy sings in first person from the point of view of Lucifer. The frontcover of "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" portrays a guy harrased by some kind of demon while the number of the beast (666) is shown on the head of his bed. Maybe for commercial reasons, at first Sabbath promoted a satanic image with an inverted cross on the inside of their first LP. --User:rivet138


 * In conclusion: Although Sabbath were not Satanists, they were certainly not Christians either. It is not possible to tell for sure what religious belief they profess. Maybe they didn't have one, at least not an organized, dogmatic one. --User:rivet138


 * I think it is safe to mention them, but they were never a Christian metal group. Sure, they had pro-Christian songs and Ozzy said he was Catholic (if I remember correctly, it might have been someone else). I think their music DID have an impact though, on how Christians view metal. Not all Metal is Slayer or Slipknot trash. IronCrow 04:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Geezer Butler was the only one who ever really experimented with the occult and that did not last long. It had an effect and frightened him into moving away from that and inspired the "Black Sabbath" song the band were named after. The rest of the band are Christian, the songs are largely warnings against the evils of the world - hence the crosses worn on stage. They could be perhaps said to be a sign that metal and religion would be closely linked from the start with their Christian symbolism but that it was often misinterpreted. Worthy of a mention I would say, but only in a passing sentence suggesting the concept of metal and religion being closely tied was there at such an early stage.

(The Elfoid (talk) 01:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC))

They are definately not christian, but they do have christian values, and they do have respect for christianity. However, the crosses they wear (including on former occultist Tony Iommi) is just satire, they're not respect for God or anything...Ninjaspwnpirates (talk) 23:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Black Sabbath isn't a Christian Metal band but the song "After Forever" with its lyrics deserves to be mentioned. RKFS (talk) 12:46, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The list of bands in this article
I mentioned this at Talk:List of hard rock CCM artists, but I'm thinking about splitting our list of artists on this article into its own list. The problem is that a few of these are listed at List of hard rock CCM artists, and are clearly metal, not regular hard rock. In my opinion those should be two different lists. (We don't need to split it up further into List of black metal CCM artists, list of hardcore CCM artists, etc... that would be ridiculous since we'd eventually split it down to one-band lists!) So I'd welcome opinions on what to do with the list in this article and the list at List of hard rock CCM artists. --Idont Havaname 01:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, really.

Unblack metal merge
Can we remove the merge request for Unblack metal? It's not being discussed and, personally, I think the two are completely different. The article explains that too. My preference would be to just leave them as mentions in each article. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * i agree -- supmyman7


 * i agree too, I do however think that the unblack artical could be expanded..possibly to include the origins of it name( the album "Holy Unblack" by Horde) --

Actually Horde are mention in the Christian metal article. Neither does it seem to me that unblack metal warrants an article of its own since it is just another minor pseudo-sub-genre. So a merger seems in place (or complete deletion) Spearhead 21:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think Unblack metal should be considered Christian Metal. Some lyrics like on the first CD of Slechtvalk, "Falconry", are clearly christian. But there should be different categories for white metal and unblack metal...

What about Petra?
weren't Petra considered a christian metal band?


 * Nope. They were specifically Christian Rock. IronCrow 04:36, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm with IronCrow. Wouldn't consider them even CLOSE to "metal". "Judas Kiss", a couple tracks on ON FIRE! and one or two on JEKYLL AND HYDE is as hard as they got and I'd only call those "hard rock" if I were feeling generous. I'd say the ROOTS of Christian metal are in Rez and Barnabas and the first TRUE Christian metal act was probably Stryper...unless someone unearths a band with a local custom recording prior to that. I know Bloodgood dates back a long ways though..they may have beat Stryper by a tad. It's hard to fix things like that in time without a demo tape or other evidence (dated concert poster) to nail it all down. GBrady (talk) 21:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ with the above comment. For one, I've listened to Petra, Stryper and Rez all of them in my collection. Petra's Jekyll and Hyde is way much harder than anything Rez ever put out in terms of the music plus a great deal of Stryper. The reason is that both hard rock and metal genre are getting harder and harder in terms of music with the guitar mix being out at the top. the only thing with J & H is that the songs are short and mostly unmetal like lyrics and with few solos.

Petra cannot be gunny-sacked as "specifically" Christian rock. To be precise, their music evolved from 1970's hard rock (which was akin to metal at the time) then went into rock with pop infuence in early 80's, then arena hard rock/metal in the late 80's and 90's, then Acoustic rock in the late 90's, then back to hard rock/pop metal.

The above writer's mistakes are,


 * To assume that the definitions and style of rock remain static from the 1970's to present. It was quite common for what we now call hard rock bands to be referred to as metal, for example the Aerosmiths (who like Petra started out in 1972). The differences between hard rock and metal then was a matter of presentation in terms of the band dressing and other paraphernalia. Coincidentally, there have been debates as to whether Aerosmiths fit somewhere as predecessors of Metal.
 * To assume that Petra's music was the same throughout their career of over twenty albums.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.200.22.7 (talk) 11:38, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Jekyll and Hyde was only harder than Rez's Ampendectomy. Otherwise, it was mellow in comparison. I was around for Petra's entire career and they were never considered metal by the industry or their fans. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

"Unblack" metal
"Unblack metal" refers to music that sounds like black metal but with christian themes. the article states that unblack metal is any heavy metal with christian themes. i can't make these changes so if you can, please make this clear.

More Information...?
I think more information on the developement of Christian Metal is a good idea, including influences (Even Black Sabbath as an influnce, not a Christian band), genres most used, and maybe a topic or article on Choas Metal (Chaoscore), that the article says was developed by bands like Norma Jean and The Chariot.

Whitecross - glam?
I would hardly consider Whitecross to be a glam band, especially afert Stryper. I don't think any of the guys in Whitecross ever wore makeup?

If you need a glam band, why not put Scarlet Red or even Stryper?

Monster 205.207.121.130 17:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC) WhiteCross weren't glam. I do remember HEAVEN'S METAL ragging on them for not having an "image" but I'd definitely say they weren't glam. Scarlet Red would fit that bill...and I'm THINKING that Ken Tamplin's band Shout might as well. GBrady (talk) 21:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Disgusted
I am frankly appalled by the inane and tawdry nature of the discussion contained above. Particulalry the discussion on Black Sabbath, which can by no stretch of the imagination be viewed as a Christian band. The fact that they wear crosses is to poke fun at 'god' not to praise 'him', this is called satire. Metal is by its very nature opposed to 'god' how then is it that you can account for a type of metal that is christian? Christian 'metal heads' therefore are not true metal heads and aree thus posers!

Why is it that non christian 'metal' i.e. real metal is refered to by christian 'metalheads' as mainstream? Christianity is mainstream, and this shows little or no understanding of the true nature of metal. It is also propaganda and a reversal of what real metal stands for and prides itself on. I also notice that many christian 'metal' sites give a comparison between real metal bands and christian bands is the point of this to then convert people and stop them listening to what must then be considered Evil or Satanic metal?

It seems like the point of this page and indeed all christian 'metal' is to proselytise to non christian metalheads and corrupt them to worship 'god'. Shame on anyone who does this. They are worse than Vomit. They have little backbone and can not stand by their convictions becuase they are morally weak and repugnant.

Many have been alienated and persecuted for listening to the likes of Black Sabbath by christians so it is hypocritical for christians to now jump on the band wagon and use the very thing once despised to save 'souls'. No doubt many of you christian' metalheads' were equally repremanded and marginalised by christian parents and society and so you listen to christian metal so that you can remain part of the flock and avoid being ostericised and sopposedly damned. Well, I damn you and that is certianly more meaningful then the ancient words of desert nomads mad inklings and superstitious beliefs in a non existant being.

Death to all false metal. Brothers of true metal proud and standing tall, wimps and posers leave the hall. The Crying Orc 20:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, because Atheism is not mainstream at all, huh? Except that it's taught in school, it's all over the media, and it's pretty much omnipresent in the entire goddamn youth culture. But hey, that doesn't count, right? Wow, that's some pretty kvlt stuff you've got here!...face it, Atheism is as mainstream among the newer generations as Christianity was among the older generations. Not underground by any stretch of the imagination, in fact it's rather trendy. Now, if there's something that ALL metalheads can agree on, it's that Metal shouldn't be trendy. THIS is what Metal really stands for, buddy, not a bunch of BM guys wearing corpse paint and brandishing inverted crosses...LOL.--DarkPresence 17:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, "The Crying Orc," you really made no sense. Wait, you did make sense, it was just, well, let me put it bluntly: pointless. For someone who reads Tolkien (A commited creationist, Catholic, and author), you must be joking. Honestly, that bit towards the end made me laugh a little. Christian metal has been here for awhile, and you can't say it's "false metal" or "poser" stuff, as I can list numerous metal bands with Christian members or at least members that believe in a God. Black Sabbath, God Forbid, just to name two or the many. Yeah, there are metal bands that speak out against religion, such as Slipknot, but then there are those that speak for religion, such as Comeback Kid and again, Black Sabbath. Alice Cooper for one? A Christian, yes, a commited one. I mean come on, Marty Friedman, who is formerly of Megadeth, even played quest guitar on Tourniquet's album. If many "True Metal" artists accept "Christian Metal" then apparently, you're words are just comments from a confused metal fan. IronCrow 03:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I really hate it when idiots decide to talk about Christians as a global group. Not only are there some huge number of sects with highly differing systems of worship and thoughts on dealing with the secular world, the people who persecuted others for jammin' sabbath are probably like 40 now and I highly doubt any of them are here for your god-bashing, orc boy. Furthermore...this is America. We do what we want. You can live in your conformist little hole where nothing can change and secular metal is the devils work and whatnot...you sound more like the people you're condemning. The ones that stopped caring 20 years ago. Hah. Get a hobby. TheTacoone —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 17:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Um... to the guy who said that Christianity was mainstream...

DO YOU HAVE ANY RELATION TO THE WORLD!!!??? Really. Christian-bashing and discrimination against Christains is quite common, the way I see it. I mean, look at this discussion right here. And yes, Christain "metal" is "metal", and some metal bands have Christians (most notably, Tom Araya of Slayer and Dave Mustaine of Megadeth) in them.

Also, at least that DarkPrescence guy has some brains. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 18:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

You make some good points, but i can't sit here and let you say that metal was built on anti-christian beliefs. Metal is simply a form of music that is heavier than rock. that's it. Metal in general is not satanic, although i admit there are more sketchy artists in metal than in, say, country. I am not a metalhead, per se, i prefer hard rock, but i do enjoy certain kinds of metal, and i am also christian. I listen to both Megadeath and Stryper, and i doubt that God cares one way or another. and besides, last time i checked, Tolkien is christian. If your going to Godbash, don't name your username after A CHRISTIAN SERIES.Ninjaspwnpirates (talk) 23:45, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Metal is not a religion or way of life, it doesn't stand for anything, but if that's your opinion then fine. But it doesn't belong on Wikipedia which has a broad definition of Metal as a music genre. But mostly just "LOL"RKFS (talk) 12:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Reecent addition
The reecent changes by seems to be greatly biased. → A z a  Toth 22:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This article was unbelievably biased before I came across it. It was written like a shoddy review in a crappy Church magazine, with a breathless exuberation and devotion to what amounts, in truth, to a non-genre. Unlike the fans of this genre of false metal, I actually provided a citation for my most "biased" paragraph...


 * Death to false metal. Brothers of true metal stand proud and tall, wimps and posers leave the hall. The Crying Orc 23:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

This whole article is incredibly redundant. Any of this info can be found elsewhere on wikipedia. Also, stop arguing over trivial matters, such as defining genres and categories of music (subjective). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.61.31.41 (talk • contribs).

Bias
Certain statements in this article (eg "(a christian 'metal' term or buzzword for real metal)") appear to be biased. I feel that they should be removed, because Wikipedia should have a neutral point of view--no matter whether you like the subject in question or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.250.67.28 (talk • contribs).

Proposed Rewrite
I am currently working on a re-write of the article to try and remove much of the POV. You can find it here. Feel free to contribute, especially when it comes to citiations. --Lim e tom 05:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and implemented my rewrite. Please add to it, especially with references.  --Lim e tom 05:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

"Real Metal Fans"
Honestly, it humors me how "real metal fans" come into this discussion acting like they're somehow superior. Arrogant people like you guys (I'm mainly looking at you Crying Orc) ruin Wikipedia. I'll tell you, I used to be a "real metal" fan. I used to be into all the secular bands both classic and new. After being born again (yeah, that's right, I wasn't raised Christian, I willingly became Christian when I finally saw the light), I've actually given Christian metal a chance, and I find myself enjoying it even more than "real metal." I can't get enough of bands like As I Lay Dying, Haste the Day, Norma Jean, Living Sacrifice and Becoming the Archetype.

Believe what you want about what metal means. To me, metal is a rebelious pouring out of emotions, a music genre that doesn't hold back. And I honestly believe no matter what your message is, it works. Because of my beliefs, Christian metal has been absolutely wonderful, and I believe true metal fans (those who are truly unbias) should see this and realize that times change, and music changes with it. Yeah, maybe most Christians were against metal back in the day (heck, they still are today). Times change, and I can't help but laugh when people say stuff like, "It's so hypocritical for Christians to use something they used to hate for their purpose." Well guess what, most of those Christians that hated metal back in the day still hate it. Every generation is different.

All I have to say is, I think all the chaos centering around this Christian Metal article is meaningless. I don't know what is with all you unhappy secular metal fans attacking Christian metal. Then again, I guess before I was a Christian I was pretty unhappy, so I can somewhat understand. All I can do is continue praying for you guys I guess, because I doubt what I say will really help.

Saigar 03:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)Saigar


 * I agree. I think it's completely pointless to slam a genre of music. I hate Fall Out Boy, but I'm not going to go to the Fall Out Boy Article and call them "fake rockers" or whatever. Wikipedia = Neutral, as much as you are biased, at least follow that. Don't come to this page and trample bands that you obviously don't know about or have even lsitened to. Neutral is the key. IronCrow 19:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Band listing
I added some Christian metal bands to the list such as Majestic Vanguard. Now they are not there. What gives?

changes
I actually made some changes a while ago, but I'm just now mentioning them in the talk section. I left the basic framework, but I added some information and re-worded some things.

Black Sabbath to be considered?
They did often talk about the vegence of God in their lyrics....
 * Black Sabbath is not a Christian Metal band. They have never claimed to be, and most people do not consider them to be a Christian Metal band.  Just because someone talks about something doesn't mean that they are that thing.  I could talk about drug use, but that doesn't mean I use drugs.


 * This is starting to amount to trolling on this point (see WP:TROLL), and there was already a discussion going on about this above. Please don't be a troll, you'll make Wikipe-tan cry. --Lim e tom 02:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * They were not a Christian band, no, but they were Christians (true or not) and they did help inspire the genre. --User:Saint Diamond

02, December 2006


 * Although Sabbath were not Satanists, they were certainly not Christian either. It is not possible to tell for sure what religious belief they profess. Maybe they didn't have one, at least not an organized, dogmatic one. --User:rivet138      —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.10.233.95 (talk) 15:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Controversies (What Controversies?) - Christians In Non-Christian Metal Bands
Really, is this article about Christian metal or non-Christian metal?

Sure, it's interesting to note all the metal bands that have Christian members (or "have members who were raised in Christian homes"), but then most every metal band would be listed. Rather, this article SHOULD be about Christian metal -- not anything else. The listing of anything else makes a joke of the genre and the article. There's no 'controversy'. If anything, metal bands with Christian members should be a separate article imo. Anthrax, Iron Maiden, Slayer and Megadeth (all among my favorites, btw, along with Stryper) listed in an article about Christian metal?! Please!

Btw, isn't Dream Theater's 'In The Name Of God' an anti-religion song? Well, not 'anti-religion', per se, and definitely not 'anti-Christian'. But certainly while Christian metal seeks to actively teach and spread the faith through metal, this song notes how great harm comes when one does act on faith, in the name of it. Just like Slayer shouldn't be listed in an article about Christian metal, though Tom Araya is Christian, Dream Theater shouldn't be listed, though they may have good and faithful Christians among them. The band itself (along with all the others) is NOT Christian metal and should NOT be listed in an article about the genre imo. Darnold01 22:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

No the dream theater song is not an anti religion song, it is about David Koresh. Why shouldn't metal musicians in the secular scene who have professed Christianity be mentioned in the article? Some people would consider bands who have all Christian members to be a Christian band, just like somone who is a professional athlete, or a plumber and also a Christian. You wouldn't be incorrect in calling them a Christian athlete or a Christian plumber, just because they aren't using their talents to try and convert somone at all times. Its not like anyone is trying to pass the secular bands that have Christian members off as Christian bands anyways. It is just interesting and noteworthy to know what musicians in those bands have made public profesions of faith. Slayer is stated in the article to be a band with anti-christian imagery and lyrics, so what is wrong with mentioning them in the article in that manner? --E tac 23:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I see that reading and reading comprehension is a handicap. Let's address your arguments...


 * "No the dream theater song is not an anti religion song, it is about David Koresh."


 * Actually, I said myself "Well, not 'anti-religion', per se, and definitely not 'anti-Christian'. But certainly while Christian metal seeks to actively teach and spread the faith through metal, this song notes how great harm comes when one does act on faith, in the name of it."


 * Would you argue that 'In The Name of God' is a Christian metal song? Certainly not. Would you argue that Dream Theater is a Christian Metal band? Definitely not. So where's the controversy?


 * "Why shouldn't metal musicians in the secular scene who have professed Christianity be mentioned in the article?"


 * Because the article is about "Christian Metal", NOT about "secular" metal, though the musicians may or may not be Christians. Fact is, their bands and their music are not at all "Christian Metal". Using your argument, then ultimately (as I previously stated) "most every metal band would be listed", making the article useless as regards to information about Christian metal.


 * "Some people would consider bands who have all Christian members to be a Christian band, just like somone who is a professional athlete, or a plumber and also a Christian. You wouldn't be incorrect in calling them a Christian athlete or a Christian plumber, just because they aren't using their talents to try and convert somone at all times."


 * Using such a twisted argument, one could say that Slayer is Christian metal because one or more of their members is a Christian. Really, does that line of thinking actually make sense?


 * "Its not like anyone is trying to pass the secular bands that have Christian members off as Christian bands anyways. It is just interesting and noteworthy to know what musicians in those bands have made public profesions of faith."


 * And I completely agree. As I myself previously stated "Sure, it's interesting to note all the metal bands that have Christian members (or "have members who were raised in Christian homes"), but then most every metal band would be listed. Rather, this article SHOULD be about Christian metal -- not anything else."


 * When it comes to "Controversies", there is none. There are likely hundreds (if not thousands) of secular bands with Christian members. Do you realistically suggest that ALL be listed in an article about Christian metal, despite the fact that none of them perform Christian metal? Again, it's interesting to note all these bands and their members, but it has nothing to do with the topic of the article: Christian Metal. Instead, I'd suggest a separate article more appropriate for that topic than the more specific "Christian Metal".


 * "Slayer is stated in the article to be a band with anti-christian imagery and lyrics, so what is wrong with mentioning them in the article in that manner?"


 * Where did I state mentioning them in this article in THAT context would be wrong? Reading comprehension... Rather, I do suggest that they shouldn't be mentioned only because one member is a Christian. What does that unrelated nugget of knowledge do to educate Wikipedia readers about Christian Metal? NOTHING. It's all about content and context.


 * I don't expect for anyone to inact the suggestion. I only put it out there to note that there is no "controversy" when it comes to the topic of the article because it has NOTHING to do with the topic -- all in an effort to improve the article through debate and concensus. If you feel it makes sense and benefits the user as is then fine. 'Maybe' someone else will also see the nonsensical argument(s) for keeping it.


 * Either way, if you do reply further, please read and read to understand before doing so. Darnold01 06:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe an entirely new article would be more appropriate, one about Christian members of secular metal bands (hundreds or thousands of bands!). That makes more sense than listing them in an article about Christian metal, music they most certainly don't perform in the bands listed in this article. Darnold01 06:42, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

You make some good points, you are right about some of it not being controversial, I don't see why it can't remain on this page though, it could maybe be put renamed into a section such as "mainstream metal with christian influences", with a sub heading of "controversial" which would list artists within that group who are. That would be apropriate for listing bands who aren't labeled "Christian bands" but who have Christian influences. I see no reason to make a new page as this article isn't that big, and about the list being so huge, can you really name that many artists in secular bands who have professed a faith in Jesus Christ? The Tom Araya bit is controversial within that area, I myself am personally pretty skeptical of anyone who would sing those type things yet claim Christianity, so I find it quite controversial. I see no reason why it can't stay here for the time being, unless the section grows enough to be worth making a new article for it. --E tac 07:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the list of secular bands with Christian members does serve a purpose in the Controversies section -- to emphasize that in the next paragraph, the controversy is not that these professed Christians are in secular metal bands, but that they are in metal bands with actively anti-Christian themes. I think this purpose could be better served, however, by compressing the whole paragraph into a lead-in sentence for the next paragraph; something like, "It is no longer controversial for a professed Christian to play in a secular metal band -- for example, Dave Mustaine of Megadeth recently converted to Christianity, while Alice Cooper has been a professed Christian for many years.  Certain artists, however ..." Jpers36 18:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see a problem with mentioning some people, such as Alice Cooper, but Darnold01 is right. There seems to be more about metal bands with Christian members rather than Christian Metal bands in some areas. I think this article should focus on Christian Metal, it's influences, Christian Metal bands, and the like. Metal bands with Christians is just too broad for an encyclopedia. I mean, I don't have a problem with saying something like "some bands such as 'this band' and 'that band' have Christian members and use Christian imagery, but they do not classify as Christian Metal" and then continue on with the topic or something. It'd be pointless to list metal bands with Christian members, especially Slayer or even Deicide. Take this statement for example: "Certain artists, however, are controversial in that they claim Christianity while playing in bands with anti-Christian lyrics or themes. Tom Araya, Slayer's lead vocalist, claims to be a Roman Catholic despite singing overtly anti-Christian lyrics. Deicide, known for their Satanic and anti-Christian themes, includes guitarist Ralph Santolla, another professing Roman Catholic." Is it just me or is that statement about the artists of non-Christian bands? I don't see anything about how that effects Christian Metal. The paragraph above that even makes me wonder why it is in the "controversies" section, when it should be more or less in it's own section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IronCrow (talk • contribs) 04:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC).


 * As you can tell, I have changed my mind of that - It's an old subject, so this comment is basically for reference. It makes sense to add it to the article, however, how it is now is great (the sections I mean). It kind of does effect Christian metal as it seems that today, people are more accepting of Christian metal than they were in say... the 80's, One reason being secular bands that kind of rubbed off their image. IronCrow (talk) 01:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

"King James Only"???
In the "Controversies" section it says "certain Christian groups, most notably those in some King James Only denominations, consider all types of rock and metal music opposed to their faith..." I don't believe that qualification is justified &mdash; at least, not without some supporting references. There are people who feel that throughout Christendom; there's no reason to suppose the King James Only people are more inclined to that viewpoint. Rocinante9x 01:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Quite possibly the most revolting reference I could find is, Dial-the-Truth Ministries. It makes me sick to think that there are Christians like these people out there. Also, some people could use some common sense when it comes to what may or may not be Christian Metal. Black Sabbath? I mean, you could say "Hey, Band X (a black metal band with heavy anti-christian themes) talks about God and Jesus alot, are they Christian Metal?" Just think about it before you write your thoughts down... Jlricherson 04:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

It's entirely true - from the same group that brought you the above - Rants about Amy Grant and P.O.D., more rants, even more rants, still more rants - all dissing artists who have been sold as Christian artists at one time or another. This stuff goes on and on. Worse, they actually print this stuff and I've seen it and similar materials from other groups being handed out in churches before. In my small experience fundamentalist groups, and especially KJO affiliated organisations, seem to push this stuff most rabidly. On the other hand, we dont cite these enough. They could really make for fun reading. Dan, the CowMan 06:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think Dial-The-Truth-Ministries studies witchcraft, satanism, pornography, and the occult more than any of the Christian bands/artists they write about. Maybe they should be mentioned (joke). To be completely honest, I thought it was a satire site when I first read it. What I thought was funnier was "Evanescence is not a Christian band!" When I read that I was like... duh... even if they were they'd still get bashed. Anyways... I do think that King James Only would not be fit for the article. I'd say lots of fundamentalists think Christian Metal is "evil," but King James Only? Not sure if that's all taht fits. IronCrow 04:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Since you mention it, why aren't we listing Evanescence and Soul Embraced in the main article? Obviously Ev has disclaimed being CCM, but they are/were/was widely thought to be CCM until they did, and they had former members from the overtly CCM Soul Embraced.  They probably merit a mention just to establish that they are NOT CCM.  Soul, meanwhile, obviously is. Mpbahr (talk) 03:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, so we all agree that Dial-the-Truth is one KJO group that finds Christian Rock and Metal to be an abomination, but are their any more to put more faces to the "Certain Christian groups" that still are in the article? Are there any others (whether they are extremists or not) that fall into this category? Oh, and if you're just wanting to read into this, seriously check out the sites above, you will be amazed at the vitriol coming from this group on this topic. Jlricherson 04:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

It's endless drivel from DTT, but there are other groups that have these doctrines. There's a Christian universtiy in town, they have a couple of books that look to be on the subject, so I may check that out this week. (Here is a general discussion of the issue, a decent place to start. [Here http://wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns-index/musicfbns.htm is some material] from the "Fundamental Baptist Information Service". This group is run by "Way of Life Literature. There's more online (not from any of the above) - here, and one final link - just some examples. On the flipside of this theres The Apologetics Essays. Dan, the CowMan 02:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Petty bickering
In order to prevent further arguments, I changed "anti-Christian" and "unChristian" to "against right hand path sentiments." I hope this will be sufficient; as Etac stated, unChristian isn't a word; however, anti-Christian isn't correct either. Pagan bands are not necessarily anti-Christian; to do so they would have to acknowledge the Christian spectrum, which they don't. Christianity and Satanism/anti-Christianity are at opposite ends of the same stick...paganism is on a completely different stick, making it impossible for paganism to be anti-Christian. I think anti-right hand path reflects the spirit of the word "unChristian" as close as possible without having to type the whole thing I just typed and clutter the paragraph. ;)


 * Well the black metal article states that "Black metal has been met with considerable hostility from mainstream culture, mainly because of the misanthropic and anti-Judeo-Christian attitude of bands contributing to the genre. Additionally, a few black metal bands have been known to have associations with church burnings". Also this is an encyclopedia so we should be using propper words. Left and Right Hand path are also vague rarely used terms and this is the Christian metal artice so shouldn't black metal be discussed in relation to that and not all "right hand path beliefe systems". Also saying someone has to be a satanist to be anti-Christian doesn't make much sense either, it is like saying it is impossible to be an anti-semite unless you are a nazi. --E tac 19:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In all truth I've found more anti-christian sentiment amongst those who hold no allegiance than those who claim to worship Satan. Or at least, it's much more common to find the first kind of person than the latter. I've never known anyone to worship Satan with the exception of myself when I was about 17...I listened to bands like Deicide, God Dethroned, Ancient...Those bands are fairly much anti-Christian...I think it's safe to say that bands like Cannibal Corpse, Devourment, and Lamb of God are really more focused on things that have absolutely nothing to do with religion, whether or not it offends the heck out of our soft-hearted Christian mothers. And I suppose Amon Amarth and Yngwie and other people talking about Thor and whatnot...whether or not they're serious, I don't know...they're on the other stick. I personally don't see them as being relative to a religious term though. Maybe we're trying too hard here to classify things according to it's relation with Jesus. Maybe it should just be our music (Christian Metal) and not. It's easier that way. There's already a huge page for them...we should just worry about what's ours. TheTacoOne 17:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Controversy?
It's stupid that somebody whould see it anti-Christian when the band is Christian and promoting it. Don't judge! - Christianrocker93

I agree, however, it happens. There are lots of Christians, including some I know, who despise Christian Metal and some Christian Rock as, to them, they believe that it it plagued with... you could say, "the devil." Go figure. IronCrow 21:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 04:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

"White metal" = "Christian metal"!!!
Hi, the page introduction is very very wrong, I try to edit it, but... Really in the Eighties, in the metal history, and now in many zones of world White metal is the same that Christian metal; so this introduction is bad, simply isn't true...I regret very much, but in this version rules a false prejudice... These link prove my words

Web Articles http://catarina.udlap.mx/u_dl_a/tales/documentos/lco/oropeza_c_f/capitulo_1.html http://www.azheavymetal.com/white_metal/white_metal1.htm http://whiplash.net/materias/christiansvoice/000605-stryper.html http://www.hardnheavy.it/sito/storia/2-WhiteMetal/white.html http://www.shapelesszine.com/dizionario/dizionarioSZ.htm#W http://www.whitemetal.it/articolo_nascitawhitemetal.htm http://www.whitemetal.it/articolo_christianmetal.htm Webzine http://www.wmetal.com ("WMetal - Portal do Metal Cristão") http://doblefilo.fiestras.com ("Doble Filo - El portal del White Metal") http://www.whitemetal.it ("White Metal - Italian Christian Metal Website") http://www.wm4c.net ("White Metal for Christ") http://www.christianrockzone.com - ("ChristianRockZone: El portal del White Metal") http://hem.passagen.se/whitemetal/ ("Whitemetal Band List") http://www.whitemetalperu.tk ("White Metal Peru - La Comunidad Oficial de White Metal en el Peru") Wikipedia http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Metal http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Metal http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_metal http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_metal http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_metal http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_metal http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_metal
 * http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discuter:Metal_chr%C3%A9tien
 * http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Metal_chr%C3%A9tien&action=history

Others Links http://www.crimsonmoonlight.com/demoniciduth/links.htm/ http://www.last.fm/tag/white+metal http://www.fact-index.com/c/ch/christian_metal.html http://www.maximummetal.com/columns/tales/48.asp http://metal.deliriyum.com/sozluk/diger.php http://www.rs-metal.com/viewtopic.php?p=5843 http://www.ancientprophecy.de/links.htm#weiter http://www.comlive.net/Definir-le-white-metal,115671,20.htm http://www.freefotolog.net/newromy/220220 http://www.krscanska-prorocka-crkva.hr/WhiteMetal.html http://whitemetalparadise.blogspot.com/ http://www.holysteel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10247 http://foro-gratis.latin-foros.com/yo-white7metal

Therefore I hope it will be modified soon. Thanks -- [Edit], sorry, no login ;) --Vaake 00:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The intro currently mentions that it is refered to as white metal.--E tac 10:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Vaake definitely has a strong point there but this is a very complicated matter. I've been following the editing history of this page since I created an account here, and there has been multiple cases when different anonymous users have added the "also known as white metal" line, and different anonymous users have always deleted the line quickly. What does this tell us? That it is a controvercial term. There are simply people who hate the term, and those who have adopted the term as a synonym for "Christian metal", as we can see from those links. I originally wrote that passage about the maisntream use of the term in order to stop the editing war, and so far it has worked. However, I personally don't care too much what the intro says as long as the article becomes bigger, but if we add the "also known as white metal", there will be those who reject the use of it. Now the real question is: who came up with "white metal" in the first place? Was it really Metal Blade Records, who marketed Trouble as a white metal band in since 1984? We need an answer to this from a reliable source. If anyone knows something about this, please tell.--Azure Shrieker 14:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

yes Azure Shrieker, in many christian metal milieu (nordic and in english language especially) "white metal" now is hated; I dont know well because, maybe in order to try the spread in the market "secular", but who hates (and this is really hate!) the term “white metal” usually hates that one of “unblack” too, to indicate the christian "black metal". But the truth is that in many nations and in all the metal history, “white metal” always it has been the "christian metal", not other!! What they say the others wikipedia around the world cannot be ignored here! (sorry for my no-perfect english...)--Vaake 15:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, very good points and there are a lot of truth in those words. I wish there was an easy solution to this matter. I used to think that ”white metal” sounded pretty cool too and respect that some still prefer it over ”Christian metal”, that is why I did not delete your contribution, other users did and for justified reasons: the text did not appear to be well-written. I know it's dumb but Wikipedia's purpose is not the truth but verifiability. You are right that ”white metal” seems to be hated in Nordic and English language areas. I've seen people in some nordic forums throwing comments like ”White metal? Sounds Nazi :-P” and that really tells a lot. --Azure Shrieker 16:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * All right, now I changed the intro and added some info about the term confusion in the Controversy section. The latter is translated from Italian Christian metal page with google translator. I tried to edit the text so that it would make sense but I'm not sure about it, so could someone check it out?--Azure Shrieker 11:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Excelent work Azure Shrieker!, God bless you --Vaake 12:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Vaake. Anyway, an anonyous user deleted the dichotomy part stating that "this is an english page, references to what Christian Metal is called in other languages is of ancillary interest)". I reverted that since English Wikipedia is read all over the world despite the language, so it also has to represent the world wide aspects of the matter as well. I couldn't fit that into the edit summary field so I though I'd write the full revert reason here.--Azure Shrieker 16:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia in english is in fact the only Wiki international, not only for the Nations in english language, but for all world ;) --Vaake 18:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Besides America (center and south) and Europe neo-latin, I've discovered that the term "white metal" is very spread also in Germany:
 * http://www.ancientprophecy.de/links.htm
 * [external links edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ www metal - observer com/speakmetal.php?lid=2
 * http://www.elixic.de/index.php?id=525&genre_id=82
 * http://www.amazon.de/5-Best-of-White-metal/lm/R1ZK9DGFLE77
 * http://www.sleaze-metal.com/live.html?do=view&id=76
 * http://forum.ingame.de/hellgate/showthread.php?s=22831b10c3a9a7968070a7294b5f1a28&threadid=1567
 * http://www.metalspheres.de/cdreviews.php?ID=1213
 * http://www.metalspheres.de/cdreviews.php?ID=1722
 * http://www.obliveon.de/pn-om/modules.php?op=modload&name=tplcdwhite&file=index
 * http://www.metalcoven.de/reviews/seventhpower-same.htm
 * http://www.metaleros.de/countries/brazil/sanctorum.html
 * http://www.dooyoo.de/musik-alben/i-saviour-machine/644449/
 * http://www.bloodchamber.de/cd/n/2775/
 * --Vaake 19:06, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Um, right, but I think it's maybe better not to mention that on the page since the German Christian metal scene does not appear to be that happy about "white metal" definition because their Wikipedia page says it refers to 1980s heavy rock. In fact, the way I see it, the German Christian metal scene has a close relation with Scandinavian Christian metal scene, and primarily shares the Christian metal definition. Although the German scene has adopted the "unblack metal" definition much more open handedly than the Scandinavian scene. The Metal Observer, Metal Spheres, Oblivion, Sleaze Metal, Metal Coven and apparently the rest too are secular publications, and the page already says that non-religious media still uses "white metal" as a synonym for Christian metal.--Azure Shrieker 20:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * mmm...yes, your answer is wise ;)--Vaake 20:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * These colons are killing me. Glad we got someone else to help, but what's this about those prefering the term Christian metal because White metal sounds like... neo nazism? I do like the addition though, well done. IronCrow 04:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah, you could see it like that. It didn't say it exactly like that on the article's previous version. I guess that's sort of a remainder from some old version when there was an editing war going on with the "white metal" term. Want to remove that? Go ahead. I myself do not dare to remove that, yet, since I've been trying to find sources for that but can't seem to find any. Right now it seems a bit like propaganda, as if it is telling people "Don't use the term, it's evil and related to Nazism!" In fact, it might probably not be true at all ;-).--Azure Shrieker 08:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I've been looking since before I posted that for people who see the term "white metal" as neo-nazism, and I still can't find a thing. I'll go ahead and remove it until sources are found. Err, then again, looks like someone beat me to it. IronCrow 01:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Iron Maiden
According to this article Iron Maiden's song "For the Greater Good of God" portrays God in a positive way. That is an absurd statement, the song's lyrics are against religion as an excuse for war and don't portray God in any way at all. The mention of McBrain's religion is also irrelevant since he didn't participate in the writing of any Iron Maiden lyrics. The sentence should be removed. Krazy Kraut 20:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The lyrics talk about organized religion of man as a bad thing ("You know religion has a lot to answer for", "Meanwhile the world is crying stupidity of man") but also God in a more positive than negative light: "Only God would know/ And as he lies in heaven/ Or it could be in hell/ I feel he’s somewhere here/ Or looking from below/ But I don’t know, I don’t know..." In my opinion that highlights the difference between religion and faith in a way that the wars are not God's fault but man's. There's also a reference to Christ: "He gave his life for us/ He fell upon the cross/ To die for all of those/ who never mourn his loss/ It wasn’t meant for us/ to feel the pain again/ Tell me why, tell me why/" So, no reason to remove that but it could be edited to say that the lyrics simply deal with Christian themes. The mention of McBrain's faith is, on the contrary, relevant since the section talks about Christianity in mainstream metal, that is both Christian lyrics and Christian members.--Azure Shrieker 20:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Christianity in Mainstream Metal a controversy?
I was wondering why we have "Christianity in Mainstream Metal" under controversies. I think it should be in a section all its own because only a small minority really find it to be a controversy (small minority meaning The Crying Orc and other disgruntled metal fans). I wont move it unless ya'll think it should be moved as well. IronCrow 23:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I totally agree. It's already a section of its own in some other wikis. In fact, we could just remove the Controversies title and make "Christianity in maistream metal," "The dichotomy of the definition" and "Critique" their own sections. How about that? In case no one is against it I could edit that part.--Azure Shrieker 09:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That would work perfectly. Also we could make "Critique" the "Controversy" section... would probably fit better, don't you think? IronCrow 04:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That is so good idea I'm going edit the article right now. --Azure Shrieker 10:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks alot better now, thanks guys. IronCrow 23:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

GA nomination on hold
Please leave a note on my talk page when you're done with this stuff - cheers, &mdash; Dihydrogen Monoxide 09:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * ✅ done "L.A.'s Stryper brought the genre into media spotlight during the mid 1980s" - Los Angeles should be used (or at least, wlink to Los Angeles and write L.A.)
 * ✅ done Ref 2 needs an accessdate
 * ✅ done "After that, the English-speaking countries'" - Apostrophe not necessary here
 * ✅ done "Musically, Christian metal has all of the heavy metal's trademarks, particularly loud guitars, bombastic riffs, long solos, and pseudo-operatic vocals" - A few of the words here (guitars, riffs, solos, vocals, etc.) to make the text a bit more meaningful
 * ✅ done "which was basically a hippie movement with Christian ideology" - Remove "basically", wlink "hippie movement"
 * ✅ done "which was formed in 1972 in Jesus People Milwaukee" - The place it was formed is called "Jesus People"? Clarify - that's the impression I get...
 * ✅ done "To everyone's surprise, Awaiting Your Reply hit big in the Christian market, and reached #6 on the Gospel album sales charts" - Why was this to everyone's surprise? You'll also need to cite this "surprise"...
 * ✅ done "Later, Jerusalem released the notable album Dancing on the Head of the Serpent." - In a wikipedia context, it's notable because there's an article on it (yeah yeah, don't start a deletion policy debate here :P) so you don't need to say "notable". If it's "notable" in another context you need to say so.
 * ✅ done "Also a female-fronted hard rock band called Barnabas was formed in 1977, although the band was more active in the 1980s." - Remove "Also", change "although" to "but"
 * ✅ done "Their second 1985 album The Strongest Power was called "One of the best records of the year" by Kerrang!" - Kerrang! should be in italics. ✅ fixed Also, can a ref for them saying that directly from them (rather than from here)?
 * ✅ done "Saint was compared to Judas Priest Mostly due to the Rob Halford sounding style vocals of lead singer Josh Kramer" - This is the first time Judas Priest is mentioned in the article - what is it? Also you need a source for this comparison
 * ✅ done "Sound of the Beast: The Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal. Pages= 196" (ref 9) - Should the "=" be there? Same on ref 11
 * ✅ done "It took a year for the metal music subculture to realize that the members of these groups were Christian who actually claimed to believe in Christ" - Christian should be plural here, right?
 * ✅ done "Not only was Christian metal criticized by secular metal fans, but soon the movement became also a Fundamentalist's target for criticism" - Refs needed here (and for this paragraph)
 * ✅ done "For example, the televangelist Jimmy Swaggart wrote a book triggering off Stryper titled "Religious Rock n' Roll - A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" in (1987)" - Why is the year in brackets?
 * ✅ done "This drew massive amounts of attention of the secular media for the Christian metal movement, and then began to drag loads of fans worldwide." - "Massive" and "loads" are not words that should be used in an encyclopedia - reword.
 * ✅ done "Barnabas was together with Stryper the main targets for criticism in the 1980s" - Reword --> "Barnabas, together with Stryper, was the main target for criticism in the 1980s"
 * ✅ done "Their best known albums were "Approaching Light Speed", "Feel The Fire", and the lyrically controversial "Little Foxes"" - Album titles should be in italics not quotation marks (per mustard)
 * ✅ done "The first Christian metal label was Pure Metal Records, a sublabel of Refuge Records. The first groups on its roster were Bride, Messiah Prophet, Whitecross, The Crucified, Tempest, Xalt, Seraiah, Eternal Ryte, Scarlet Red, Rosanna's Raiders, Light Force (Australia), Creed (Germany), Force 3 (UK), and Leviticus (Sweden). " - Citations and wlinks needed
 * ✅ done "In 1985, Doug Van Pelt answered to this demand and published the first issue of Heaven's Metal fanzine. It started out as six-page xeroxed edition covering Stryper. Despite the humble beginning, the classified ad Van Pelt's friend placed in Kerrang! happened to be in the British rock magazine's 100th issue — an issue with 100,000 extra copies." - "Heaven's Metal" and "Kerrang!" need to be in italics. "HM" (when referring to Heaven's Metal) also needs to be in italics
 * ✅ done "During 1990s HM sealed a distribution deal with a major magazine wholesaler that immediately doubled its print-run from 13,000 to 22,000 copies and allowed Van Pelt and his co-workers to double ad rates, making HM a stable a business enterprise" - 13,000 --> 22,000 isn't quite doubled. Try "increased" instead...
 * ✅ done "HM is known for two certain articles. First one is the..." - Reword to "Two specific article's greatly bolstered HM's popularity. The first was..." Also, a bit later on, Alice Cooper needs a wlink
 * ✅ done "While Heaven's Metal was probably the first and the biggest Christian metal zine, there were other less-known fanzines such as White Throne..." - White Throne needs to be in italics, and the paragraph needs sourcing
 * ✅ done "During 1980s and early 1990s, the more underground Christian metal releases were typically distributed in Christian bookstores. Those as well as the fanzines also traded Christian metal cassette copies with the music fans." - Merge this into one sentence, and possibly in with another paragraph
 * ✅ done "Sanctuary's first worship leader was Stryper's Michael Sweet and later Barren Cross' Jim LaVerde" - wlinks?
 * ✅ done "Rex Carroll, who became well-known as a talented guitarist" - Ref?
 * ✅ done "Musically, the band is often compared to Iron Maiden, mainly due to the similarity of the vocals between Mike Lee and Maiden frontman Bruce Dickinson" - wlinks for Iron Maiden, and for band members?
 * ✅ done "Bride's early metal albums didn't sell too well" - Reword --> "Bride's early albums did not sell well"
 * ✅ done "Despite being criticized for their abrupt changes in style in favor of what's "hot", the band has remained largely popular in the U.S. and other places like Brazil." - Refs needed
 * ✅ done "The band X-Sinner was formed in 1988 and is known for having a very similar sound to that of AC/DC" - wlink
 * ✅ done "The band's unique style brought them fans all over the World and broke new ground" - World shouldn't be capitalised
 * ✅ done "A music video was made for the title track received some airplay on MTV." - You need an "and" before "received"; after "track"
 * ✅ done "Allmusic has written about Believer's Sanity Obscure album" - Allmusic --> All Music Guide
 * ✅ done "There were also some thrash groups in Europe...." - Paragraph needs sourcing
 * ✅ done Ref 30 needs cleanup (accessdate fix etc.)
 * ✅ done "which is one of the more recent acclaimed releases for the Christian speed and thrash metal genre." - fact
 * ✅ done "and eventually caused that heavy metal music lost most of its popularity and went to underground for a decade." - Reword --> "which resulted in heavy metal music losing popularity and going underground for a decade"
 * ✅ done In ref 31 the album titles need to be in italics
 * ✅ done "The attitude towards Christian metal bands became more negative," - Ref?
 * ✅ done "Several changes happened: with the lead of Heaven's Metal magazine..." - Paragraph needs refs
 * ✅ fixedAre you sure ref 32 is published by All Music Guide?
 * ✅ done Ref 34 needs an accessdate. Also you don't see to say "Australian Music Online" and "amo.org.au". Finally, most AMO biographies include an original source (usually a record label) - this should be used for the work parameter on cite web
 * ✅ done"The band enjoyed notable commercial success with Blood World[34] and eventually became possibly the most successful Christian extreme metal group" - Need a comma before ref 34
 * ✅ fixed "yet the band was not thought to be exactly Christian" - Ref?
 * ✅ done "Allmusic describes them as "one of the world's most extreme-sounding Christian metal bands."" - Allmusic --> All Music Guide
 * ✅ done "Allmusic described their 1999 album Burial..." - Same as above
 * ✅ done "The band was hailed as accomplished musicians[40] and noted for their exceptionally precise" - Need a comma before the ref, change "was" to "were"
 * ✅ done "As a one man band with only one release (in 1994), Horde initiated controversy within the extreme metal community" - Horde is already wlinked in the previous sentence, no need to wlink again
 * ✅ done "opposing the more common lyrical themes of Satanism and evil" - Ref?
 * ✅ done Ref 43 needs cleanup (accessdate formatting etc.). Same with 45. 46 needs publisher, accessdate, author, etc.
 * ✅ done Album names in image captions need to be in italics (throughout)
 * ✅ fixed The "Power metal and progressive metal movements" section contains a grand total of 1 ref...
 * ✅ fixed "The British group Balance of Power was a notable Christian progressive metal band until the album Heathen Machine, as mostly their bassist Tony Ritchie wrote the more Christian based lyrics." - What's their bassist writing Christian lyrics got to do with them being a notable band until a certain album...?
 * ✅ done "The band was formed in 1995 and released the first album When the World Falls Down next year, and was picked up by the Japanese label Pony Canyon, and received significant airplay on Japanese radio stations." - Overuse of "and"...reword to "The band was formed in 1995, released their first album When the World Falls Down in 1996, was picked by Japanese label Pony Canyon, and received significant airplay on Japanese radio stations."
 * ✅ done "which mixed David Bowie type rock-opera and classic metal." - wlink for "David Bowie"?
 * ✅ done "These albums were distributed through Nuclear Blast USA.[58], gaining the band some attention" - The ref should be after the comma
 * ✅ done "In 1988 the industrial metal movement began." - 1988 shouldn't be wlinked
 * ✅ done "Mortal was not exactly the first Christian band that played industrial[61] but they had a notable role in that they opened ways" - Ref needs to be on top of a comma, or you could just remove it as it's reused at the end of the sentence anyways
 * ✅ done "The song ”Rift” was rearranged later and a musicvideo was shot for it in 1994" - music video is two words. Same again at "A musicvideo was shot for ”Telltale Crime” in Tennessee state penitentiary which was closed due to inhuman conditions"
 * ✅ done "Other 1990s Christian industrial metal cult band was Circle of Dust" - Change "other" to "another"
 * ✅ done "after his former thrash metal outfit Immortal (USA) disbanded..[63]" - Don't need two full stops here
 * ✅ done "Albert was basically the leader of the Christian industrial metal movement" - Eeek...reword to "Albert led the Christian industrial metal movement"
 * ✅ done "The second album Numb was somewhat successful since the song ”Blind” became a hit single" - Change "since" to "because"
 * ✅ done "the latest example include Superman Returns and Spider-Man 3." - Change "the lastest example include" to "including"
 * ✅ done "The band achieved significant notice for its only album Genetic War (2003) since band leader Neil Johnson is a professional film maker and shot many musicvideos for the songs." - Reword to --> "The band achieved significant attention for Genetic War (2003), its only album, as leader Neil Johnson is a professional film maker. He shot numerous music videos for the songs on the album."
 * ✅ done "Few of the videos caused some controversy in Germany for featuring videomaterial from concentration camps of World War II." - Reword to --> "Some of the videos caused controversy in Germany for featuring video material from World War II concentration camps."
 * ✅ done "A decade later after early 1990s, " - Remove this bit, you say the 2000s in the next phrase
 * ✅ fixed "Return to mainstream" section is completely unsourced
 * ✅ done "are deditated to discuss about Christian metal's music, events, and bands." - Change "discuss" to "discussions"
 * ✅ done "which is the most successful Christian metal band after Stryper as their album Satellite (2001) has sold multi-platinum." - Reword --> "which became the most successful Christian metal band when their 2001 album Satellite went multi-platinum."
 * ✅ done "Blind Guardian's Hansi Kürsch is openly Christian although critical in faith." (image caption) - wlinks needed. Same with "Type O Negative's Peter Steele returned to his Roman Catholic roots in 2006."
 * ✅ done "and frontman Dave Mustaine became a Christian in 2002 which was during the time when Mustaine was recovering from his wrist injury." - Reword --> "and frontman Dave Mustaine became a Christian in 2002, at a time when he was recovering from a wrist injury."
 * ✅ done "Killswitch Engage[85] and Linkin Park[86] have members who were raised in Christian homes, thus occasionally using spiritual themes" - Put the refs at the end of the sentence, use "and" instead of "thus"
 * ✅ fixed Ref 91 - why is the author's name in ALL CAPS?
 * ✅ done "For example, the alternative rock band Evanescense had its roots within the Christian community prior to the release of Fallen" - wlinks needed for Evanescense (wow, I never imagined them to be Christian) and Fallen

Reviewed version:

Good luck, &mdash; Dihydrogen Monoxide 09:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Completed most of those, so now we need to find some sources for the Kerrang! quote, Rex Carroll, Bride, Temple of Blood, Horde, European thrash, Power metal, and Return to mainstream sections. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 15:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Passed. Excellent work. &mdash; Dihydrogen Monoxide (Review) 05:53, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Great. Thanks.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 13:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Music samples?
So, if there should be added music samples into the article, which songs would you choose and why? We could improve the article's quality by adding 15&mdash;30 second samples per Music samples using Audacity for several sections. For thrash, I would add Tourniquet's "Ark of Suffering" (it received MTV play) and Believer's "Sanity Obscure" (was covered for the video game Doom); for death metal, it should probably be Mortification's "Scrolls of the Megilloth" since it has an article; for unblack, I would add Horde's "Invert the Inverted Cross" (probably their most well-known song) and Antestor's "A Sovereign Fortress" (a popular song from their influential album released by Cacophonous Records); doom and gothic metal should probably include something by Paramaecium (probably "The Unnatural Conception" or "Injudicial" because the first album is their most respected) and Saviour Machine's "Legion" (the first album was bannned from Christian book stores because of that song). Classic metal sections should probably include samples of Stryper's "To Hell with the Devil" since it's their most popular metal song, Barren Cross' "Imaginary Music" (MTV airplay) and Bride's "Hell No" (a popular song in their concerts during 1980s) or "Rattlesnake" (popular song from their breakthrough album. Industrial metal should probably include Circle of Dust's "Deviate" (intro for MTV Sports show). No idea what to add for power metal or 2000s metal, something by P.O.D. or As I Lay Dying? I could provide the mentioned samples by Tourniquet, Believer, Mortification, Horde, Antestor and Saviour Machine. How about that? --Azure Shrieker (talk) 13:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Samples I would include are songs that were pivotal or somewhat "popular" for their times. A Stryper song, such as "To Hell With the Devil" or "Soldiers Under Command." Mortification would be an excellent choice, and the song that comes to mind would be "Scrolls of the Megiloth." If I were to add thrash, I would add "Ark of Suffering" by Tourniquet. As for Unblack metal, I would say an Antestor song from "The Return of the Black Death," whichever would be fine. Bride's "Show No Mercy" or a song from that album would be great as well, you mentioned "Hell No" which isn't a bad choice either. As for newer bands, I would include Demon Hunter's "Not Ready to Die" due to it's MTV2 exposure and Fuse TV. As I Lay Dying is a prime example of metalcore (not power metal) and is very popular within the genre, so "Confined" or "Nothing Left" (has an article already). P.O.D. is rapcore so I think the best example of their work would be "Youth of the Nation" (their most popular song) or "Boom." As for industrial, I'm not sure what to add, as I never really followed much of it. IronCrow (talk) 06:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * All right, I included samples of "Ark of Suffering", "Scrolls of the Megilloth", "Invert the Inverted Cross" and "A Sovereign Fortress" to the article. Now if only someone could provide samples by Stryper, Bride, and some of those you mentioned. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 12:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * For as long as I've been with Wikipedia, I haven't ever added music samples (at least not to my knowledge). If you could help out a bit, it'd be much appreciated. I'm pretty lost at this point. Would I need links to the samples or would I need to upload my own clips? IronCrow (talk) 05:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You need to upload your own clips, ripping them as wav files from the CDs to ogg format (yes it's legal in this case). I made the current clips like this: in Windows Media Player, change the music ripping format to WAV from the settings and then rip the selected track from the CD. Install Audacity, open the WAV file into the application and select the desired bit that should make good, short sample using select tool (paint the bit like when you copy-paste text). you can preview the selected sample by pressing "play." Settings--> ogg quality must be set to zero as per WP:Samples. File --> "save selection as Ogg Vorbis." Then upload it to wikipedia. If you have further questions, just ask. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 10:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, wasn't sure what to do. I'll see what I can do when I can do it. IronCrow (talk) 02:13, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Article split
It seems that the article is currently too long to become a featured article, so how should we split the page; what sections should be put to subarticles and write summeries on the article? Should we move the 1980s metal sections to The mainstream popularity era of Christian metal and move the underground metal sections from thrash to industrial to The underground era of Christian metal (or "Christian metal in the 1990s", Christian bands in metal subgenres" etc)? Any opinions?--Azure Shrieker (talk) 20:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't know why it needs to be a featured article, but that'd be nice I guess. But I do see the history sections as being quite large. We could sum up those sections and make a seperate article called History of Christian Metal. Then again, someone would want to merge that with a History of Metal-type article, and that would make an article even larger than what we got here, and odds are, lots of the Christian Metal sections would be cut. The Underground Era of Christian metal sounds like a good idea, as it would cut out a large portion of the history for it's own article, and we could just link it from here like any other article that's split. Christianity in mainstream metal sounds like a good idea as well. It's not Christian metal, but it is certainly related to it. Also, if we want to shrink the article a bit, "The dichotomy of the definition" could somehow be cut and probed to fit the introduction. It's already there somewhat with: "As a result, "white metal" was used interchangably with "Christian metal" until the early 1990s when the mainstream popularity of the scene ended and the movement went underground. After that, English-speaking countries (North America, Australia, United Kingdom etc.) and Middle and Northern European scenes adopted the "Christian metal" term, while "white metal" remained in use in South America and southwestern Europe." IronCrow (talk) 02:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, it really does not matter whether the article is featured or not. I guess it would be nice if it got to be on the front page of Wikipedia for a one day. I'm fine with Christian metal being just a good article and personally I don't think the hassle of splitting the article is worth the trouble of promoting Cristian metal to featured status. The mentioned sections could be split and linked here but there's no need to do that in haste. "The dichotomy of the definition" could actually be removed entirely since it does not bring up any other info that the history and lead sections already do.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 09:02, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah we should focus on improving the article first, I think, making it the best we can do for a Wikipedia article is more important, before making it into sections for now. Right now I'm trying to find sites, articles, etc about real early Christian music, I cant find much more than what is in the article already, so I'm going to move on to underground. The article sort of lacks in the newer genres, like metalcore, etc, so I guess i can try in that area for now as well. IronCrow (talk) 18:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * We should write an entire section under the title Alternative metal movement and include the nu metal, metalcore, industrial metal, screamo, emocore etc. bands there. The current industrial metal movement section is way too long (because of my interests :-) and should be shorter. So, what are the key bands that led the alternative movement? We should also write about bands that aren't already mentioned in the Revival section, or then merge some of those paragraphs with the Alternative metal movement section. For the very early scene, I tried to find something useful from the books Raised by Wolves link (see pages 152-167) but the only new info on that was the band Agape which I mentioned in the article.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 20:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Observations
Hopefully these things I'm pointing out will help the page -

Just some small things first, I think mentioning Matrix when talking about early Bride is important.

This statement - "The four biggest Christian thrash metal groups were Deliverance, Believer, Vengeance and Tourniquet." Problem is Believer is grindcore and experimental and Deliverance is a speed metal group.

And this statement - "Tourniquet was the biggest of the Christian thrash metal groups." is total opinion. Could be re-worded to "Tourniquet was one of the more notable Christian thrash metal groups."

I think the Controversy section needs some work also.

This paragraph -

"Some musical ensembles have criticized Christian metal industry for isolating itself from the secular industry too avidly. For example the Finnish post-metal band Callisto has somewhat accused the Christian metal industry that once a band gets in it, they can not get out.[152] This problem developed during the 1990s. Originally the groundbreaking bands such as Tourniquet and Vengeance Rising had played for secular audiences as well. However, currently Tourniquet among others play mostly for Christian audiences."

The problem is Tourniquet and Vengeance Rising suffered from financing problems. Remember Roger Martinez starting going downhill because of the bands overspending on the "Once Dead" tour. He pointed that out, if memory serves me, in an interview with HM, as the beginning of distrust for Christians in general.

The thing this article is majorly missing is the East Coast and West Coast Metal scenes. Which would help people better understand the situation. Bands couldn't tour on both coasts becuase of costs involved in tours. Tourniquet for example only appeared in my region once since their formation.

I think it's alright to say this but the flip side of the coin is bands were hurt by money issues, which didn't allow them to get the exposure and touring that a band needs to help ensure it gains success on the national level.

Another problem is that which Michael Sweet brought up. That is the beginning of MTV actively banning Christian videos of all types. MTV's response to him submitting "Ain't No Safe Way" was not only to ban it, but also to release a series on VH1 that attacked Christian music in general. MTV at the same time would also deny having Christian videos. On a whim I called MTV to request a Ken Tamplin video be played back in the mid-90's. Ken put a little insert in his album giving us radio station and MTV's numbers on it saying to call, so I did. When MTV claimed they didn't have the video, I then asked what about Stryper, Deliverance, Guardian and I said a few others. I got told they didn't have such videos. I was telling a friend at Church at the time about it and he told me that's strange because he was watching Beavis and Butthead and a Stryper video popped up and they were making fun of it.

Another thing that should be added to the controversy section is bands that used Christian music. Bands like Evanescence, would be a good one, as they used the industry to get their start. Then told everyone they weren't Christian, Here's the info -

Alright I think that's enough for now. Let me know what you think.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 14:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the constructive feedback. Actually Evanescence was mentioned in the Controversy section citing that same source but then someone said in the featured article nomination page that it makes no sense to mention Evanescence in a metal article because the band is not metal at all, so the remark was removed. That MTV activity and VH1 series attacking Christian music sounds definitely something that should be mentioned. I did not find anything from google, do you remember the name of that series? Was that Michael Sweet's remark published in HM or somewhere else? I have no idea what to write about the East Coast and West Coast Metal scenes but I'll add those to the project's tasks list, hoping some one finds more info on them. Um, I will politely disagree with Believer being grindcore, and Deliverance had a nice amount of thrash to its first two albums although they did lean more towards speed metal, but speed and thrash are related genres anyway. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 16:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't quote me but if I remember right a 1994 issue of CCM Magazine contained the info on the VH1 special. I have the magazine stored away. I will try to dig the info up so it can be used.

Also for east coast metal this might help - I have the west coast sampler. Now it was a little before my time, and I will talk to my friend about this but I do believe that East and West Coast metal has some more history to it that I will need to dig into. This same friend is a person who was involved with Dorn Reper (I know I am mispelling the name) he was a promoter in my area that booked a lot of bands, including Matrix, who were signed right down the street from me and renamed Bride. My friend knows a lot about the 80's and could be some big help. He gave me a ton of cds and magazines over the years.

Also another artist that NEEDS mention on this article is Rage of Angels. I have never to this day really understood the entire controversy of them and their album, other then it was re-mixed by John Elefante and released after they broke up. The album, when I was a teenager, was going for upwards of $100+ in Rad Rockers.

Here's some links on Rage of Angels -   OfficialDoughboy (talk) 17:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

One more thing of interest, I forgot about and you reminded me of. A Believer song was used in CKY (video series). The first video in the series I believe. There is a skating montage and they play Dies Irae (Day of Wrath) from Sanity Obscure.

Man I have too much info in my head that needs to get out :)OfficialDoughboy (talk) 17:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Only thing that you listed that I believe doesn't need to be added is "Just some small things first, I think mentioning Matrix when talking about early Bride is important." They weren't knows as Matrix for long and that is already on the band's article. Regardless, it wouldn't hurt to add. Another thing, you should add that "MTV banning Christian videos" for discussion on the MTV/Censorship on MTV article. It seems void of it. Anyways, tahnks for the observations, and thanks for not spouting out hate speech, heh. IronCrow (talk) 07:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

At least a mention
Am i the only one surprised that living sacrifice did not get a mention??

They helped define christian metal as it is today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.165.141.173 (talk) 08:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If you read more carefully, Living Sacrifice is already mentioned under the Subgenres title, and they get more mention in the Underground Era of Christian metal subarticle. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 08:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Christian Metal?
Okay this is going to be extremely difficult to explain but I think we need to stop putting the title of Christian Metal or Christian Thrash Metal on individual band pages. A style can not have religous beliefs. Is there a Christian Metal movement - Yes. Are there Christians who play Thrash Metal? Yes. Does that make their Thrash Metal style Christian Thrash - NO. Imagine if we did this to every band, because every band has beliefs, we have a million genres that don't go together. I don't got a lot of time but if you need me to clarify more let me know.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 12:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Dude! I totally agree, but I'm afraid it is not that simple. While in an ideal situation a band would not have to labeled "Christian" by their faith but rather by their music style, there are too many people who think otherwise. Take a look at the CCM articles here, they are all labeled "Christian band" with seldom mentioning what kind of music they actually play. When a band is known to have uplifting spiritual lyrics, certain people are almost blinded by that and do not really care for their actual genre. It drives me nuts how in Finland a band with openly Christian lyrics gets immediately labeled as "a gospel band" even if the group plays the darkest brand of metal there is. When I started writing in Wikipedia, I intentionally avoided mentioning in a band article's definition line that the band is "a Christian metal band", but usually mentioned that in some other part of the article if the band's significance relies on that fact. In my opinion, bands like Antestor, Sanctifica and Crimson Moonlight should be called black metal, or like they do in Metal-Archives, "black" metal, not unblack. The problem is, there are too many people who think Christian black metal should be separated to unblack metal category. Certain edit wars are good examples. When I wrote an article on Drottnar, I politically called them an "extreme metal band", then a fellow editor changed it to "unblack metal", and then an anonymous IP changed it to "black metal". Sheesh. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 13:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That is opinion, OfficialDoughboy, but Christian music is definitly a genre. Though I do agree with you that labeling a band as simply "Christian metal" can get aggrivating. I'll use As I Lay Dying as an example. The band states they are a Christian metal band on their website FAQ, BUT, they are not part of the CCM industry, they are part of Metal Blade Records and wish to appeal to all audiances. Putting "Christian metal" on a band page definitly belongs if the band is a Christian band. Putting just "Christian metal" though is ridiculous, as it basically puts them all in the same musical subgenre. Removing them off individual band pages is an NPOV concern more than anything. If a band is a Christian metal band, leave the label, but ELABORATE. As with As I Lay Dying, the article has Christian metal, Metalcore, etc, and that is fine. If it just said Christian metal, then that doesn't say much at all. The reality is, Christian metal is a genre, whether one likes it or not, if you do not think so, you need to learn what the term "genre" in music means. IronCrow (talk) 05:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The only problem with that thinking is if what you say is true then we need to start labeling all genres by the content of their lyrics or what the group believes in. So when do we stop?  I read on another page on wiki that put the subject into proper context: If a Christian picks a tomato does that make the tomatoe a "Christian Tomato?"  If it's opinion that I speak why don't we go and label all genre's by their bands beliefs.  And what I'm saying is not said to take away from a bands belief's or their impact spiritually, it's said to treat bands with the respect they deserve.  I'll say again what I said before as example - DC Talk is a band that is made up of Chrstian believing members who perform in the Hip Hop, Rock and Alternative Rock genres in the CCM Industry.  And I would really like to know, if what you say is true, how Oz Fox is able to play his guitar in a Christian way and Eddie Van Halen doesn't?  How does that happen?OfficialDoughboy (talk) 22:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You know, people argue about question for "Christian metal" all the time on Christian metal forums, and those debates never lead anywhere. Get over it: Christian metal is a genre, just like IronCrow said. We can just blame Stryper (laughs) for creating the concept when they were the first band to call themselves "a Christian metal band" in 1984 (see the Mean Magazine article). If we change the genres and definition lines here, will it really change the way people think in real life?--Azure Shrieker (talk) 23:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I sounded rude, just something I'm really passionate about, I don't like the double standard in the mainstream. Anyways if that is the consensus I'm not going to go against it.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 13:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * How is Christian a genre? Is there anythign distinguishing it MUSICALLY from other metal bands? 193.44.6.146 (talk) 20:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It's just as much a genre as Emo is. Emo can be incorporated into post-hardcore, screamo, and metalcore bands. Heck, there's even Emo rap. Genre does not mean just musically, it means what the band's style is. As I Lay Dying considers themselves a Christian band, but they are a Metalcore Band as well. Christian is the label used simply to distiguish that their music is about and for their personal faith, not just for entertainment. And yes, there is "Jewish rap" and "Islamic raggae" and whatnot, it's just that since our English and Christian dominated world, we see more of Christian rock and Christian bands than others. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 05:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Genre?
I'm not entirely sure its a "genre". Christian metal is christian because of the lyrics, not the music. You would find christian glam, thrash, and even death and black christian bands. I don't really know were im going with this but...Д narchistPig (talk) 03:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Please read the article again. Also read this entire discussion page. Christian metal is definitly a genre, but more than a genre, it is a Musical Movement, which is also on the article. Music can be classified as a different genre based on lyrics, most definitly Black Metal, Emo bands, etc are some of those. IronCrow (talk) 04:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Controversies section to be worked on
I'm going to rewrite and rearrange the Controversies section. It seems vague and has only one citation. I think maybe slimming it down and adding new sources would be a good idea. If anyone has any suggestions, let me know. I'll try to have it done by next week. I wont have time to work on it until Friday really, so if someone wants to start, please do so and post what you have on the discussion page so I can add it to mine. Thanks. IronCrow (talk) 05:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * So, have you done any progress on the rewrite? It does seem funny that the "Christian metal not being real metal" is backed by a source of a HM Magazine interview with George "Corpsegrinder" Fisher, who does not exactly say anything about Christian metal being bad, on the contrary he actually says there are good Christian metal bands :-). Personally I haven't found any good citations for or against Christian metal from relevant sources, at least in English language anyway. I know some Finnish sources where some well-known metal radio host claims that the term is artificial. By the way, I busted laughing when I found that someone has started a petition to stop Christian metal. Pretty impossible to stop a movement that has been strong for 30 years, don't you think? --Azure Shrieker (talk) 14:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I haven't worked on it just yet (too much work for my classes), I'll get started right now. Too bad we can't cite the petitions, that is pretty funny. IronCrow (talk) 05:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC) - Alright, I edited it up a bit, but there's still work to be done. Feel free to change it up a bit, I'll try to find more sources since the ones we have a bit flimsy. IronCrow (talk) 05:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I know this isn't a soapbox but I would say it would be good to include the arguments we see all the time against Christian music. I just did a perusal of Heavy metal music and I can find no basis for the points people like to debate Christian Metal as an oxymoron.  The main bulk of the arguments for Christian metal being defined as an oxymoron of a term can be debunked from the Heavy metal music page on wiki itself.  So maybe it would be good to use popular arguments like Christians can't play metal because of lyrical content, and also that Christians don't know how to pary, or don't do drugs.  And also including Dial-the-Truth Ministries and their attack through their crock  page would be prudent.  And maybe an idea for another page, but Rock Apologetics would be another interesting subject.  Let me know what you think.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 20:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

North American and European Christian Metal
Do you think we should create or insert differences between Christian metal bands by region? I have not heard of too many European Christian metal bands, and was wondering.IronCrow (talk) 17:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea, Leviticus and Jerusalem were from Sweden, which if I'm not mistaken is in Europe. Also there was a whole white metal movement in the UK involving Detritus, in fact the first time I ever saw the term white metal was on the first Detritus album Perpetual Defiance.  I would say their dialects and accents gave them different vocal sounds.  There was also some spanish death metal bands Rowe Productions signed early on, I can't think of names off the top of my head right now.  You could also explore why some american bands like Saviour Machine become big in Europe.  I'm not saying they aren't popular in the states but for some reason they have a bigger following in Germany.  Same thing with Impellitteri, or if some are offended by saying they were Christian look at Rob Rock.  There are examples of bands and artists that make it big in other regions from their home countries.  Hope that helps.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 20:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Most of the Christian black metal, power metal and melodic death metal bands are from Europe, particularly from Scandinavia. Sacrificium is a notable Christian death metal band from Germany. As for the differences, the non-Christian (?) writer of this Finnish White Metal article claims that "In Northern Europe, Christian metal does not aim to threaten people with Judgment Day or force people to convert - the lutherans do not feel the need for similar ecstacy as in America for example." As far as I know, Christian metal is not really commercial in Europe, unlike in US which has all the CCM markets and major Christian record companies. Compared to American bands, the European bands are typically less eager to promote themselves as a Christian band although they do not hide their conviction. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 21:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I think it may be because the Christian Music scenese are mostly dominated by American groups. Not saying they are any better, it's just magazines and Christian record companies are predominantly in the United States and Canada. I think it would be good to add what you jsut said, however, because it sums it all up. IronCrow (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I see someone's been working on the Euro-Christian metal sections. Good work. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 13:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Underground era of Christian metal should be merged here
I am aware that it was originally split out, but that is no reason to keep it separate. The article has issues with original research, and relevant material should be merged in here. A recent AfD showed some support for a merge. At very best, the existence of the article gives undue weight to its subject. I would just do a blunt-force merge, but that would be disrespectful considering the quality of this article. J Milburn (talk) 18:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll start working on the merge + some other stuff.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 13:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't mind a merge, it would be for the better, however, I fear the page is going to be "longer than Wikipedia's standards" again. Plus, if the article has original research: remove it, don't just think it needs a merger because of it. Odds are, eventually, we're going to have to cut another section out. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 05:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sometime in the future the article will be changed anyway. At the moment there's very little we can do about it because we are missing reliable sources. However, a professional and analytic book on Christian metal titled The History of Christian metal is in the making process by a HM Magazine writer. The writer has obviously taken a look at this article and I'm sure he does not agree with some of the more original research sounding parts. Whenever that book comes out, whoever then is more active in the Christian metal wikiproject in Wikipedia, use that book as a source for the rewrite of this article.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 16:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that makes sense. Though we can't use the book for everything, I think it will help with some of the "blotches" we have in our current article (such as the underground scene, early Christian metal, etc). ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 21:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * True, both the Christian metal and Unblack metal articles have the same problem: too much name dropping without any clear point. Should we just put the details into the band articles and write really deep analysis on the lyrics and the motives for Christian playing metal (the early bands Rez and Jerusalem had things like altar calls at their concerts which could mean that their motive was to convert people to Christianity first and foremost)? Anyway, down with the Wikipedia standards, Christian anarchy! (lol) --Azure Shrieker (talk) 14:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Type O Negative
So, now that Peter Steele of Type O Negative has rediscoved his catholicism (which is like people who were raised catholic but didn't believe in it's equivalent of "finding jesus") and released an album with strong christian themes from the perspective of a newly converted and still somewhat broken Christian, does that retroactively make them a Christian band? :D 209.136.161.135 (talk) 16:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure how serious that question is, but I would say no, Type O Negative is just Type O Negative, and Peter Steele being a Christian and reflecting that in his lyrics does not really make that band Christian (more like "a band with a Christian in it" :P), and it is better that way, they're better off without the Christian metal scene. Likewise, Dave Mustaine being a Christian does not make Megadeth a Christian band either. I think it is still cool that the frontmen of those bands are practicing Christians.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 19:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Some more to be considered for the "Christianity in Mainstream Metal" article.
A closer look at Kamelot, Sonata Arctica and Dragonforce all provide a good deal of Christian introspective.

Kamelot's "The Inquisitor" (Speaks about The Spanish Inquisition and how its practice of 'acquiring faith by any means' is effective and pure.) and "Up Through the Ashes" (A song about Pilate's lament over his deeds and offers an introspective into the crucifixion.) should speak for themselves.

Sonata Arctica makes the occasional glance towards Christian values in songs such as "Ain't your Fairytale" (Insinuating that the 'wolves' who don't pray in the story that is being told should be slaughtered by the pious hunters, a rather easy to read metaphor.), "White Pearl / Black Oceans" (Duty and clarity of mind are more important than fleeting relationships.), "The Cage" (The 'freedom' highly held in regard by today's society is slavery to sin and makes you no better than an animal.) and their most obvious example "Victoria's Secret" (How a girl's life is changed by her escape from her parents and conversion to Christianity.). Though this isn't that surprising considering their old keyboardist Mikko Harkin did start the Christian Metal band Mehida, though this was before the albums in question were released it's obvious he had some impact on the band if it weren't their own faith.

And well nearly every Dragonforce song to date has been about holy warriors crushing opposition and slaughtering demons. It should be kinda obvious where they got the inspiration for that one...

Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.13.105 (talk) 05:20, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * If you can find some reliable references then you should add it in. – Jerry  teps  12:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

A1+++ to this article
I remember the era very well and black metal back then referred to anyone who sung about satan or similar evil lyrics. White Metal was for Christian groups or anyone who sung about the Bible and similar.

It makes me laugh when I read the black metal article as it is based on lies. There was no 1st wave black metal. Black Metal as an actual sub-genre came from Death Metal and started at the time they say the 2nd wave started. Everyone know Venom were part of the NWOBHM and sound more like a badly produced Motorhead than one of these newer black metal groups. Its like saying Helloween are 1st wave Death metal as they appeared on an L.P. titled Death Metal. The Death Metal turn Black Metal bands took influence from Venom the same way Death Metal previously took influence from Slayer and they obviously got their name from Venom. There was definetely no black metal 1st wave as it didn't mean the same back then. Quotes and references in this article support what I am saying. I remember it well. I was into the whole scene and I read all the magazines at the time. There was no 1st wave black metal. It was just black metal & white metal meaning Satanic / similar lyrics & Christian / Biblical lyrics.

Brian Head Welch
Ex-Korn guitarist Brian Head Welch should be mentioned somewhere in the articles. BreakerLOLZ (talk) 21:50, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * why? 67.121.224.96 (talk) 07:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * He became a Christian around this time and is in the process of releasing a solo album. His site lists two albums for sale. As a high-profile convert, it's a good idea to mention him. So now you get to answer "Why not?". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * his album is already out :) 67.121.224.96 (talk) 08:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * So it's even more important. Since you didn't offer an answer to the "why not?" question, I'll assume you have no objection. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Like way heavier man
This sentence doesn't seem like it belongs in an Enclypedia; "Although Saint was way heavier than Stryper." RKFS (talk) 12:39, 3 November 2008 (UTC)