Talk:Christian universalism

Redirect
Christian Universalism should not REDIRECT to Christian Reconciliation. They are simular, but Christian Universalism is a much broader catagory which should include the following Wiki articles:
 * Apokatastasis
 * Primitive Baptist Universalist
 * Trinitarian Universalism
 * Unitarian Universalism
 * Universal Reconciliation
 * Universalist Church of America
 * Quaker Universalist Group

Discussion welcome, changes made to reflect the complexity of the Christian Universalism issue. StudentoftheWord 19:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Reminder:: Christian Univeralism is the denomination and it's beliefs and not the doctrine of salvation which encompasses all humanity. █►Student Of the Word◄█


 * The whole article is a mess you are using archaic language to explain complex matters

Set out that trinitarian dogma and unitiarian logic differs radically before you start explaining the term universalism.
 * Uni means one, trini means three get out of the bubble!

Weatherlawyer (talk) 03:58, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Redirect to Universal Reconciliation
If "Christian Universalism" is distinct from "Universal Reconciliation" then please write an article on one that is not merely a copy-and-paste of the other. Right now this article is a near-identical duplication of the lede of Universal Reconciliation and should therefore redirect to that article for the time being. Redirecting. Mike R 15:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Christian Universalism is indeed a much broader topic than Universal Reconciliation. I have written a new article about Christian Universalism and removed the redirect. Shiningdove (talk) 02:35, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, even just one type of Christian Universalism alone, Evangelical Universalism, made prominent by books like Thomas Talbott's "The Inescapable Love of God" and Gregory MacDonald's "The Evangelical Universalist", cover more than the topic of Universal Reconciliation.(talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:51, 19 October 2010 (UTC).

In other nations
I much enjoyed reading this article. But I note that it seems to be entirely USA-centric from about 1700 onward.David.Throop (talk) 22:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, I am wondering whether the general ideas of Christian Universalism apply to all Christians, or all of humanity. The article is vague concerning this distinction. --DMP47 (talk) 19:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

This page needs a historical section
I came looking for information on New England Universalist beliefs and the Universalist connection to Spiritualism. The article seems to be largely focused on contemporary beliefs at the expense of historical development. Unitarians and Universalists were not always united as they are now, and the historical distinction needs to be made by someone who knows the history.

MarkBul (talk) 17:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

numbering error?
"The first five of these beliefs were found in the Five Principles of Faith adopted in 1899 by the Universalist General Convention, a historical Christian denomination which was later called the Universalist Church of America.[5] All six of these beliefs are found in the statement of faith adopted in 2007 by the Christian Universalist Association.[6]"

I only see five beliefs listed with bullet points. Why are six beliefs mentioned in the second sentence?

Eriugena
Removed 'Scotch' because it's meaningless. Scotus and Eriugena meant the same thing at the time: Irish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.64.44 (talk) 03:41, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

WP:CFORK
Most of this article is busy with establishing that universal reconciliation was a belief present in early Christianity. This is not the place to do this, as we have a dedicated article, at Universal reconciliation. The topic of this article should remain restricted to the Christian denomination of the 1770s to the present known as "Christian Universalism". It is also pointless to dwell on the fact that Christian Universalists believe in God and Jesus Christ etc. since they share this conviction with all Christians, and it is sufficient to just say they are a Christian denomination. The salient point is their belief in universal reconciliation, which is certainly not shared by most other denominations. --dab (𒁳) 11:45, 28 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, in the article it says " There is currently no single denomination uniting Christian universalists " and it seems to me this is a weasel word sentence. It could mean that more than one denomination of Christian universalists exists, or zero, but not one. The next sentence makes 0 seem more likely.
 * Then it says "Unitarian Universalism historically grew out of Christian universalism but is not an exclusively Christian denomination." -- and what I get from that is that because they are inclusive, no other Christians consider them actually Christian. (How sadly true to sterotype is that) - let me know if you have a better interpretation. Know Einstein (talk) 03:26, 6 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I am in agreement, this article needs to be clarified that Christian Universalism is a Denomination and NOT the doctrine of Universalism, Universal reconciliation is the establish article for the doctrine of universalism in Christianity. █►Student Of the Word◄█

Major Flaw: Universalism ≠ Ultimate Reconciliation
This article has a major flaw: Universalism is not the same belief as Ultimate Reconciliation; not even from the narrowest Christian definition. This article blurs the two into a muddy topic. That is the cause of some of the disagreement I'm reading. To drastically over-simplify the difference; Universalism means everyone gets a "pass," while Ultimate Reconciliation recognizes that the unrepentant get punished, but all will eventually be reconciled to Christ. --LanceHaverkamp 17:46, 13 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lance W. Haverkamp (talk • contribs)

The article claims:
 * "In 1899 the Universalist General Convention, later called the Universalist Church of America, adopted the Five Principles: the belief in God, Jesus Christ, the immortality of the human soul, the reality of sin and Universal reconciliation"

Are you saying this is wrong? Then please present better references establishing what the actual principles adopted were. If it is correct, I don't see how you can argue that Christian Universalism is not characterized by the belief in universal reconciliation? After all, the other four principles, belief in God, Jesus Christ, the soul and the reality of sin is accepted by every Christian denomination I have ever heard of. Thus, principles 1 to 4 make "Christian Universalism" Christian, while principle 5 distinguishes it as Univeralism. --dab (𒁳) 11:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Merge?
Sorry, but what is there in this article that does not duplicate universal salvation article? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:41, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

It is also about the 19th century religious movement. The article could be split into Universalist Church of America and Universal reconciliation. --dab (𒁳) 12:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC) That suggestion makes sense. The duplicate content could be redistributed and a disambiguation page left In ictu oculi (talk) 20:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Christian Universalism is a religious tradition that includes Universal reconciliation, a.k.a. Universal Salvation. I argue that maintaining both pages is necessary, as Christian Universalism includes so much more than Universal reconciliation. The article on Christian Universalism describes the history and beliefs (note: beliefs, plural) of the tradition, whereas the article on Universasl reconciliation is about the singular belief of Universal reconciliation. It would be unnecessary and confusing to merge them. Again, my opinion. Americanseeker (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC).

I quote from the article itself: "Christian Universalism is a school of Christian theology which includes the belief in Universal reconciliation." Emphasis on the word "includes." Americanseeker (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC).

I believe the two concepts are distinct enough that they're fine the way they are. Gateman1997 (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Article very limited in its scope
This article barely even touches on Christian teachings of universal reconciliation before modern times Where are all the pre-modern fathers and theologians that modern denominations build on (Figures like Origen and the Cappadocian fathers, various medievals such as H. Julian of Norwich)? They are not part of this article. As such, it is quite incomplete.

F.W. Farrar's public domain book Mercy and Judgment should be a very useful resource for expanding this article. 74.133.104.185 (talk) 03:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. 174.4.163.53 (talk) 12:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

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=thisPROPAGANDA??
We read in 2 Corinthians 5:19 that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;" and that the veil which obscures one's realization of what they have is removed through faith in Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 4:4 we read "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."81.11.230.198 (talk) 07:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Not sure what you are trying to say? Sethie (talk) 11:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

original research tag
I have begun to work on the section which was titled "Reforming 'hell' biblically through discussion across denominational lines"

I have renamed it, removed some of what seemed like OR and added what I consider a strong citation.

Any input welcome Sethie (talk) 11:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Belief section
I moved this out, because I don't believe it is accurate- not all universalists believe in theosis, and many demonimations believe in theosis, just not for all people.

"The two central beliefs which distinguish Christian Universalism from mainstream Christianity are universal reconciliation (all will eventually be reconciled to God-without exception, the penalty for sin is not irrevocable at the point of death, i.e. doctrines of everlasting damnation to hell and annihilationism are rejected) and theosis (all souls will ultimately be reconciled and conformed to the image of the glorified resurrected Christ)." Sethie (talk) 12:48, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

intro
I moved out of the article this because I don't think it belongs in the intro- and actually I think it is quite innaccurate-

"Many in the Universalist camp believe that all human beings are already reconciled to God even if they are unaware of it. We read in 2 Corinthians 5:19 that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;" and that the veil which obscures one's realization of what they have is removed through faith in Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 4:4 we read "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

I don't know that many believe that at all!

Any input is welcome Sethie (talk) 13:27, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this. It needs some pruning and resources. Unfortunate to lose anything good but it's necessary for encyclopedic standards. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:01, 14 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Of course the accurate parts of it can be put back in somewhere else...... :) Sethie (talk) 18:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC)


 * wink wink, nudge nudgeSethie (talk) 18:20, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Biblle Quotes
It would be great to get some quptes from the Bible in this article, a section on Biblical foundations of universalism maybe?... I am working on pruning that section over at universalism] anyones input welcome.

Also, I found the following inside this article, I have moved it here. It would be nice to put some of the artcle, though I think it would need to be cleaned up quite a bit:

Scriptural support Christian Universalists claim that Jesus taught Universalist principles including universal reconciliation and the divine origin and destiny of all people, and that these teachings were further developed by Saint Paul, Saint Peter, and Saint John the Apostle. They also argue that some Universalist principles were taught or foreshadowed in the Old Testament.

Christian Universalists often point to the following Biblical teachings as evidence of Universalism --> Sethie (talk) 02:43, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Jesus' teaching that God is "Our Father in heaven"
 * Jesus' teaching that all things will be renewed.
 * Jesus' teaching that the unforgiving servant will be turned "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed."
 * Jesus' statement that human beings are "gods"
 * Paul's teaching that human beings are God's "offspring"
 * Paul's teaching that there is "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all"
 * Paul's teaching that God will show mercy on all
 * Paul's teaching that "from [God] and through him and to him are all things"
 * Paul's prophecy that "as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive"
 * Paul's teaching that "just as the result of one trespass [by Adam] was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness [by Christ] was justification that brings life for all men. ... through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous"
 * Paul's teaching that "God was pleased (...)to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross"
 * Paul's statement that God "is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe."
 * Paul's teaching that "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them"
 * Paul's prophecy that "every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"
 * Peter's teaching that Jesus "died for sins once for all" and "went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago", so that they may "live according to God in regard to the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6)
 * John's teaching that "[Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world"
 * Old Testament teaching that men and women are created "in the image of God" (Genesis 1:27)
 * Old Testament teaching that "[God's] anger lasts only a moment"
 * Old Testament teaching that "[God] is good; his love endures forever"
 * Old Testament teaching that "The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made. / All you have made will praise you, O LORD" Non-Universalist Christians interpret these Biblical teachings in ways that do not imply Universalism, or point to other verses in the Bible which seemingly contradict Universalist beliefs. Christian Universalists such as Gary Amirault contend that some key words in the original Greek and Hebrew text of the Bible have been mistranslated to strengthen the traditional argument for eternal hell.

modern proponents section
This section was recently deleted, I think the following are significant and have strong enough citation to stay:

The entire section was recently chopped... I think some of it is relevant- here are the ones I think could stay in- input welcome,

"Modern Exponents of Christian Universalism"

The conversion of Bishop Carlton Pearson to a form of Universalism and his subsequent excommunication by the Joint College of African-American Pentecostal Bishops in 2004 caused Christian Universalism to gain increased media attention because of Pearson's popularity and celebrity status.

In 2007, Eric Stetson and Kalen Fristad gathered a group of thirteen ministers and evangelists from several denominations to found the Christian Universalist Association, an interdenominational organization for churches, ministries, and individuals who believe in Christian Universalism. About the current state of Christian Universalism, they state: "Many Christian philosophers, theologians, writers, and scholars are coming to believe in a Universalist interpretation of Christianity. A rapidly growing number of books are being published on the subject of Christian Universalism. Hundreds of Christian Universalist websites have exploded across the internet over the past few years, run by people with a wide variety of religious backgrounds and viewpoints. It appears that Universalism is beginning to develop into one of the most significant ecumenical movements among Christians of our time."

Sethie (talk) 18:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I think Pearson and the CUA are definitely noteworthy. Of course, the question is do we have the sources? ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:03, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi! :) I have included the sources in that were used- they look strong enough to me. What do you think of the final quote? Sethie (talk) 19:08, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's a good way of explaining why they exist and what they do. And I also agree with the sentiment personally. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:16, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
 * OK will put the above back in Sethie (talk) 20:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

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Lead sentence
Removed "New Jerusalem" and "Heaven" from lead sentence, while some universalists may have a vision of what Universal Reconciliation looks like, I do not believe that this is a key part of Universalist theology. Maybe we could have a section on universalist vision of what universal reconciliation will look like? Input welcomed Sethie (talk) 04:13, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

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Misconceptions about universalism
I came to believe in universalism and I believe there are many misconceptions. I do not believe all people will be saved without believing the Gospel without a repentant heart. I believe from what I read in scripture that all unbelievers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and be there until they repent and are reconciled with God. MrLW97 (talk) 22:46, 1 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The exact mechanics of how reconciliation takes place are non-essential to the doctrine, everyone has their own opinion and there are several archetypes that tend to emerge. Some believe in instant transformation at death, some think the devil gets saved last and we all have to wait for him before we can enter heaven, etc.  What makes it Christian universalism is the belief in the divinity of Jesus and that He will successfully save every human.  The rest is just details.  I would be inclined to argue that you also have to be orthodox (Nicene Creed) to be a Christian Universalist, but I don't think from a secular view that would be justifiable, as we can simply refer to orthodox Christian universalism if we have the linguistic need to describe those who believe in Christian universalism and are also orthodox.2605:A601:70E2:2500:FDD7:7350:7F41:5CF4 (talk) 03:37, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Trinitarian universalism
It's not clear that Trinitarian universalism is historically or even theologically distinct from other forms of Christian universalism. The history section of Trinitarian universalism already discusses Christian universalism more broadly, and the theological discussion is likewise more broadly applicable. Daask (talk) 14:43, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * It's certainly distinct from Unitarian Universalism, and all other forms of Universalism which dispute "Whether God's oneness is best described by the orthodox Christian concept of Trinity or in some other way, such as classical unitarianism, Socinianism, modalism, etc." (to quote from the article). I would be inclined to doubt the practical usefulness of the merger... AnonMoos (talk) 13:55, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I agree with the merge proposal, speaking as a trinitarian/Christian universalist, they're the same thing. Unitarian Universalism is different enough that it merits its own article covering the interplay between both its named terms, it doesn't need a second article here. 2605:A601:70E2:2500:FDD7:7350:7F41:5CF4 (talk) 03:25, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


 * They aren't the same thing.... not all Christian Universalists are Trinitarians.


 * I think we could and should trim down the Trinitarian one A LOT and integrate most of it into this article. Sethie (talk) 13:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Schaff-Herzog reference
From the article:

"According to the New Schaff–Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1912), over the first five hundred years of Christian history there are records of at least six theological schools: Four of these schools were Universalist (one each in Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa–Nisibis), one taught conditional immortality (in Ephesus), and the last taught eternal hell (in Carthage or Rome).[24]"

But this isn't quite right. The article in Schaff-Herzog does include the claim that four of the six schools were universalist, but then it backtracks and says most modern scholars would have problems with labelling them as universalist. In other words, Schaff-Herzog does not throw its unqualified weight behind this claim. We should have something better than a century-old source that can't make up its mind to back a claim like this. 98.28.188.184 (talk) 18:15, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I don't see what you are referring to... please include the text here.
 * Also your claim that he doesn't throw it's unqualified weight behind this claim is WP:OR, you would need a scholar to make such a claim in a WP:RS. Sethie (talk) 05:24, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The source notes that many, probably most, contemporary scholars would disagree with calling many early Christian figures and institutions as Universalist. This is in square brackets, just before section 3 on page 96. I've made an addition that includes this information. Net User (talk) 20:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Critical Reception
Is there no critique of the idea of 'universalism' from a Christian point of view? There actually should be many, since it is rather misleading and Jesus Christ actually rejected universalism several times. 105.12.1.35 (talk) 09:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)


 * 1.) Your'e wrong. 2.) There can be if you can source and provide reasonable balance, etc. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)