Talk:Christianisation of Anglo-Saxon England/Archive 1

Merging from Christianity in Anglo-Saxon England
I don't think this article should be merged with Anglo-Saxon Christianity, because it isn't really about Anglo-Saxon Christianity as a religion and you could equally argue that it should be merged with Anglo-Saxon paganism. This article is specifically about the 7th century overlap between both religions- the process by which Anglo-Saxon paganism was replaced by Anglo-Saxon Christianity. It's about which kingdom converted when. It isn't really trying to say anything about the nature of either religion, which is what those respective articles should be about.Æscing (talk) 23:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

well yes, I recognize this as an extension of the summary I have compiled at Anglo-Saxon paganism. We can certainly keep the article separate for now and see how it fares, but I think it should be retited to Christianization of Anglo-Saxon England. Of course Christianization is always the first chapter in a regional history of Christianity, so that Anglo-Saxon Christianity could perfectly well have a "Christianization" section. Compare how we discuss the Christianization of the Germanic peoples more generally under Germanic Christianity. --dab (𒁳) 10:54, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I see that the suggestion is now to merge it with Gregorian mission. It's certainly true that the parts of this article concerning the Gregorian mission could be moved there, but the Gregorian mission ended in 653 and the Hiberno-Scottish mission ended in 664. Christianization of the kings would carry on for more than 20 years, and then we must also consider the scraps of evidence for continuing Paganism amoung the common population such as the law codes. So where would we put events after 664? It just seems like it would be helpful to have all information on one page rather than people having to read Gregorian mission, then read Hiberno-Scottish mission, then read something else. Æscing (talk) 12:49, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

2019 discussion

 * Support merge from Christianity in Anglo-Saxon England to Christianisation of Anglo-Saxon England. Little to no reason to keep the perspectives distinguished. No reasons to make things more complicated than they have to be. Same scope. Would be consistent with how Germanic Christianity merged into Christianisation of the Germanic peoples for the very same and fair reasons. That said, the name would be secondary, meaning whether these scopes of articles should be named "Christianity in" or "Christianisation of X" is ultimately secondary in my estimation. PPEMES (talk) 14:19, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose Firstly I oppose picking-up a ten year-old thread and just carrying on as though the previous comments were yesterday. Secondly we actually need a good deal less in Christianity in Anglo-Saxon England on the early days of the conversion process, not a whole lot more. Johnbod (talk) 21:24, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Johnbod. The topic of Christianity is wider than just the process of Christianization. Place Clichy (talk) 10:27, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose for the reasons stated regarding the identical proposal of November 2018 at Talk:Christianity in Anglo-Saxon England, where three editors were opposed and only the proponent in favor. I would have thought the proponent would have had the first discussion closed before opening an identical proposal four months later on a different page. "Forum-shopping" much? If anything, the merge should be in the other direction as Christianization is only a part of "Christianity in Anglo-Saxon England". Christianization is about 55k; Christianity at 41k. By the time everything is folded into one article, it will be overlong and end up being split again. Manannan67 (talk) 04:47, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Title
I'm somewhat reluctant to accept "the Christianization of Anglo-Saxon England" since England was created after the varios Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were all Christianized. Æscing (talk) 15:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon England is, of course, the modern term for England in 450-1066. If you want to use period terminology you should consider ang:. --dab (𒁳) 18:01, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Dates
Previously I had specific dates of 597 and 686 which have been changed to "spanning the 7th century". When we have these specific dates why be vague?Æscing (talk) 15:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

because it is unduly accurate. "Christianization" didn't begin the minute Augustin set foot at Dover, nor did it end the minute Arwald was slain. I do think what you are really aiming for is a timeline article. --dab (𒁳) 18:03, 1 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I specified that the dates were the landing of the missionaries and the death of the last Pagan king. I have included information about the general population where possible, to show that Paganism continued after the king's conversion. However if we go down that road then how do we know Christianization didn't continue into the 8th century? It didn't necessarily end when Arwald when was slain but it also didn't necessarily end when 699 ticked over to 700. Christianization of the common population is difficult to pinpoint but we can pinpoint a kingdom's de jure Christianization with the Christianization of the king. Æscing (talk) 02:29, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Christianization of Anglo-Saxon England
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Christianization of Anglo-Saxon England's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Kirby_31": From Eadbald of Kent: Kirby, Earliest English Kings, pp. 31–33, provides an extended discussion of the chronology of Æthelberht’s reign. From Æthelberht of Kent: Kirby (Earliest English Kings, pp. 31–3) provides an extended discussion of the difficult chronology of Æthelberht’s reign. 

Reference named "Yorke_32": From Æthelberht of Kent: Yorke, Kings and Kingdoms, pp. 32–34. From Eadbald of Kent: Yorke, Kings and Kingdoms, pp. 32–33. 

Reference named "Kirby_37": From Æthelberht of Kent: Kirby, Earliest English Kings, p. 37. From Eadbald of Kent: Kirby, Earliest English Kings, pp. 37–42.</li> </ul>

Reference named "Bede_II_5":<ul> <li>From Wulfhere of Mercia: Bede, HE, II, 5, p. 111.</li> <li>From Eadbald of Kent: Bede, Ecclesiastical History, bk. II, ch. 5, p. 111.</li> </ul>

Reference named "DNB":<ul> <li>From Wilfrid: Thacker "Wilfrid (St Wilfrid&#93; (c.634–709/10))" Oxford Dictionary of National Biography accessed 9 November 2007</li> <li>From Gregorian mission: Mayr-Harting "Augustine [St Augustine] (d. 604)" Oxford Dictionary of National Biography</li> <li>From Paulinus of York: Costambeys "Paulinus (St Paulinus) (d. 644)" Oxford Dictionary of National Biography</li> <li>From Mellitus: Brooks "Mellitus (d. 624)" Oxford Dictionary of National Biography</li> <li>From Kingdom of Gwynedd: Owen "Hervery (d. 1131)" Oxford Dictionary of National Biography Online edition accessed March 6, 2008</li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 07:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * These are now fixed. - Salamurai (talk) 00:39, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

When copy-pasting text from other articles...
You need to say in the edit summary where you got the information from, for liscencing reasons. Also, when you do that wholesale including sources, you are certifying that you have read the source and agree that it is correctly attributed to the source. Note I'm not objecting to the copy-paste, just the fact that it's not clear where the information came from. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:31, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

see discussion above, this article mostly duplicates content already given better coverage elsewhere. It could become a good article, but somebody would need to write that article. --dab (𒁳) 18:05, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Isle of Wight Genocide
The only source for the invasion of Caedwalla is St. Bede. He definitely states in Chapter 16 that he endeavoured to destroy all the inhabitants thereof and that Bishop of Wilfrid was given the LAND and BOOTY of a quarter (300) families. Yet still Christian apologists insist that Wilfrid "saved" these families from the still-pagan Caedwalla. This is further contradicted when Bede describes the younger brothers of Arwald, who converted to Christianity moments before their murder when Caedwalla had returned to the Mainland as the "first fruits" of the conquest. This would not be the case if Wilfrid had converted 300 families first. Wilfrid was complicit in the total genocide of the Island population with the exception of Arwald's sister then married to King Ecbert of Kent nad the mother of King Wihtred. --Streona (talk) 19:22, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Wilfrid's biographer Eddius does not report the conquest of the IoW directly, but he does say in Life ch. 42 that Wilfrid supported Caedwalla such that he was able to quell his enemies. Caedwalla made Wilfrid his supreme counsellor. Eddius also says that Caedwalla defended his country with peace treaty and the sword. There is no doubt that Caedwalla was a nasty piece of work, they threw him out of Wessex for his behaviour and he went on the rampage although eventually returning and becoming King of Wessex. Wilfrid also spent his career falling out with various kings and archbishops and was in fact exiled himself when he met up with Caedwalla. Caedwalla showered him with land and gifts, why? There was no doubt that Wilfrid was a political animal, when he made up with Theodore and returned to his diocese in Northumbria he gave a lot of his holdings in Sussex to the Archbishop of Canterbury, so much in fact that the See of Canterbury owned more of Sussex than the reformed See of Sussex. It is pretty obvious that Wilfrid would have supported Caedwalla's tactics on the IoW and the fact that they were pagan would justify the genocide, and Wilfrid would probably say that Caedwalla was doing gods work, particularly as he was giving the church booty.Wilfridselsey (talk) 22:34, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Importance of Hiberno-Scot mission in the north and elsewhere
I am curious about how much of the Christianization of Anglo-Saxon Britain can be credited to the Hiberno-Scots (why not just call them Irish, or Gaelic-Irish?)? The article states "Æthelwealh of Sussex was baptised in Mercia sometime during or just before 675, probably as a condition of marrying the Christian Queen Eafa of the Hwicce." Who converted the Hwicce - the British? Does not the background and education of the likes of Chad of Mercia, Jaruman, Trumhere, Ceollach, and Diuma, point out their role in Mercia? The role of the likes of Tuda of Lindisfarne, Colmán of Lindisfarne and of course Aidan of Lindisfarne are sufficently well-known, but what about Modwenna, Dagán (bishop), Saint Fursey, Saint Gobain, Foillan, Saint Ultan, Ségéne mac Fiachnaí? Surely this merits further consideration in the article, as well as Anglo-Saxons moving to Ireland, such as Gerald of Mayo? Fergananim (talk) 07:02, 7 May 2013 (UTC)