Talk:Christianity and modern paganism

Starting this page
As discussed on the talk page of Christian Wicca I have started this more broadly focussed page with, I hope, some defensible references. I do not yet have Joanne Pearspn's book (on order...) but trust that she may have further good sources which we can briefly incorporate here. Kim Dent-Brown  (Talk)  22:02, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Christian Wicca => Christianity and Neopaganism
(-- Rrburke posted the helpful comments below on my talk page but I'm copying them here and will reply below because I think this is the best place for the discussion - hope this is OK!)  Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  21:21, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Kim. I think this move/creation was a good idea. I was about to nominate the article for deletion yet again, but I think that situating the topic with a larger context answers most of my objections, though perhaps not all.

A couple of points, though. First, as I pointed out here, Nancy Chandler Pittman's Christian Wicca: The Trinitarian Tradition is self-published and as such is not suitable as a source. Neither is her website, http://www.christianwicca.org/. In my opinion, in accordance with WP:SPS, any claim anchored by that book or website doesn't belong in Wikipedia.

As well, I note that Joanne Pearson's Wicca and the Christian Heritage is cited in the references section. I haven't looked at the book since the AfD, but what struck me most about it was that, near as I could make out, it contains absolutely no mention of "Christian Wicca." What makes that striking -- to me, at any rate -- is that the book is about Wicca and Christianity.

This absence of a single mention of "Christian Wicca" in a book devoted to the subject of Wicca and Christianity highlights the basic problem: outside of the work of wishful bloggers, online essayists and self-published authors, I can't find any evidence that any halfway-coherent set of practices that might reasonably be labelled "Christian Wicca": a) actually exists, and b) has received sufficient coverage in reliable sources to merit a standalone article. Because the topic is such an OR-magnet, I think it's doubly important both that the sourcing for the article be of the highest quality and that the text of the article stick extremely closely to what those sources explicitly say.

For example, part of the lede reads as follows:


 * "some followers of modern pagan paths have developed practices such as Christian Wicca"

My questions about this passage would be as follows:


 * Does the author actually use the term "Christian Wicca"?
 * Is this work a reliable source "with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" and is it about an actually-existing set of practices that some significant group of people actually participate in?

If the answer to either question is no, then the passage ought to go. As for the first, I haven't read the book, so you'd know better than I. But for the second, the signs are not auspicious: first, Llewellyn's "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" is not exactly stellar. Second, while I haven't read the book, Llewellyn itself describes the book as a "unique mix of memoir and how-to" that "shows how one woman [emphasis mine] blended Christian traditions with the magic and beauty of a Wiccan practice." It does not appear to demonstrate that any significant group of people practice something identifiable as "Christian Wicca". Furthermore, the book evidently exudes "warmth and heartfelt reverence," which is rather troubling.

I don't know if you've already done so, but could I ask you to take a moment to look at the AfD and my comments here and here to have a better sense of what my concerns are.

Thanks! -- Rrburke (talk) 17:43, 24 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Hello Rr, thanks so much for the feedback and I'm relieved and pleased you think most of your objections have been answered. Yes I have read all your comments that you linked - in fact it was reading your comments that gave me the idea of trying to do something with the sorry wreck that was Christian Wicca. I quite agreed with you that in its various incarnations that article was unsustainable. While I'm no deletionist, I'd have voted Delete at AfD for all the reasons you gave.


 * I had an exchange with Anon Moos where we agreed that the title was a real problem, focusing the article on a narrow topic that was never going to be notable. As you point out, Jo Pearson's book doesn't mention Christian Wicca and so it's of no use as a reliable source for an article with that title. My thinking was that broadening the focus would allow us to use her scholarly work, hence the new title.


 * Now that the new article does have a notable subject, Christian Wicca becomes a minor example of the topic in question, and not its central focus. It is an illustration, one exemplar of the syncretism being discussed. Of course even this needs a source of some sort, but I think that a self-published source is now more viable. WP:RS says the following about self-published sources:


 * ===Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves===
 * Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:


 * the material is not unduly self-serving;
 * it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);
 * it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
 * there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
 * the article is not based primarily on such sources.


 * I think all the above now apply to the use of the Pittman source - in particular I have tried to make sure it is not self-serving! However I do take your point about mentioning Christian Wicca in the lead section. I don't think this is necessary and I'll delete it. Also, I'll reverse the order of this and the next subsection to demote it a little! I hope this will downplay any undue significance given to the topic in the new article.


 * However I wouldn't want to delete all reference to Christian Wicca from the article; it is one concrete example of a Christian-Neopagan syncretism and I think the new article would be weaker with one less example. What I will do is try to find other well referenced examples and add them in here, which will further dilute any undue emphasis given to Christian Wicca. In particular I'm going to go through Pearson and hopefully include some of her work, which I think will be much more solidly based and flesh the article out further. Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  22:05, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

(Since when is a self-published book not suitable?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.12.110.116 (talk) 02:40, 7 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Check out WP:RS, including as excerpted directly above... AnonMoos (talk) 14:38, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Capitalization quibble
In anthropology / missiology contexts, the word "Christopaganism" does not have a capital "p"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 10:44, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Removed image
With some reluctance I removed the image from this page - not because it doesn't make obvious, logical sense but because I was unsure how encyclopaedic the description was. It said:"Pentacrossagram: A combined Christan cross and pagan Pentagram. A Common Symbol used in Christo-Pagan traditions. Which also emphasizes the overlapping of beliefs through symbolism]]". Now I know Google searches are not to be trusted, but neither term appears AT ALL in a Google search. So either the symbol is NOT common - or at least that these names are not. I have seen the symbol on the covers of various books on the topic - maybe we could use one of those? Or this symbol without the name, which seems to be invented? Kim Dent-Brown  (Talk)  08:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC)


 * If it's been used on book covers, then that establishes its independent existence (which I didn't know before). Using an actual scan of a book cover would involve "fair use" problems, though.  Why not just say something like "A combined pentacle and cross symbol, sometimes used to represent the idea of Christian-Pagan synthesis"?  By the way, the pentagram has been used as a Christian symbol at various times in the past, including the "Pentalpha" of Gawain and the Green Knight, some forms of the commons:Category:Pentagrammaton, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 16:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Good idea, have restored the image with a less contentious description. Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  17:54, 29 November 2010 (UTC)


 * PS: I particularly like the image you uploaded to Commons (copied here.) Rosycross-Tetragrammaton.svg we make any sensible use of this here? Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  18:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The image File:Rosycross-Tetragrammaton.svg represents esoteric Christianity (possibly with a tinge of the occult), not any kind of Christian-Pagan synthesis, so it's hard to see how it's directly relevant to this article. If there's any mixing of traditions in  File:Rosycross-Tetragrammaton.svg, it involves Kabbalistic Judaism (not Paganism). AnonMoos (talk) 00:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

-ise and -ize
A recent edit to the article turned these UK spellings to US variants. As there aren't any other UK/US conflicts here there's no precedent about whether this article is written in British English or US English. So I was minded to revert but what the hell - we can all understand it! Kim Dent-Brown  (Talk)  13:39, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * "-ize" could also be considered Oxford spelling... AnonMoos (talk) 14:34, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

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Requested move 12 March 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. Seems uncontroversial; I will execute related RMs. Hadal (talk) 20:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Christianity and neopaganism → Christianity and modern paganism – Consistency with Modern paganism page name. Ingwina (talk) 09:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Had to be moved already per WP:BOLD. Zakaria ښه راغلاست (talk) 19:14, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.