Talk:Christianity in Middle-earth/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Vaticidalprophet (talk · contribs) 08:38, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

I have to say, this title certainly caught my eye scrolling through GAN! As a note of transparency, my understanding of Tolkien proper rather than through some of the many, many works he influenced is relatively sparse (not absent, but not in-depth either), so I may ask about a couple points that would be obvious to someone with the level of understanding you have; hopefully you'll be understanding if I've any dumb questions. A quick skim of the article looks good; I'll start the in-depth analysis when time permits. Vaticidalprophet 08:38, 18 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for taking this on. The article has the benefit of having one foot in Tolkien, one in the Bible, so it can be seen from either direction. Happy to discuss. I think the Biblical side will be transparent to any Christian, so they should find that makes the Tolkien side easy to understand; and of course, Tolkien must have hoped that his tale would make Christianity easier to understand. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:12, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Getting into the weeds now

 * J. R. R. Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic from boyhood

This was the first line to catch my eye, as the specific phrasing implied conversion, and I was unsurprised to find checking the parent article that this was the case. This is a bit of a borderline note, as considering the age at which he/his family converted it wasn't really as though he had strong Baptist influences, but it seems worthwhile to mention explicitly somewhere (perhaps the rather short first sentence for Context) that his background was specifically one of a convert family who were ostracized by their Baptist background.
 * Added.


 * In addition the work includes the themes of death and immortality, mercy and pity, resurrection, salvation, repentance, self-sacrifice, free will, justice, fellowship, authority and healing.

This is quite a long sentence, and at different points is both overpunctuated (for the need to discuss so many clauses) and underpunctuated ("In addition the work includes..." is rather run-on). I'm unsure that every one of these themes needs to be mentioned in a single shot -- it's a bit of a laundry list.
 * The intention is to lead in to the article so the list is necessary; I've removed the "In addition" (but that didn't make it a run-on, which is a bunch of sentences with main verbs, incorrectly rammed together).


 * Commentators, some of them Christian, have taken a wide range of positions on the role of Christianity in Tolkien's fiction, especially in The Lord of the Rings.

"...Tolkien's fiction in general and The Lord of the Rings in particular" scans more naturally to me. Right now, a bit too many comma clauses.
 * Reworded. Perhaps the "especially" is more British in usage.


 * Applicable, but not specifically Christian

I don't know if this subsection header is fully representative -- the "applicable, but" seems to tie it in more with the idea of a Christian interpretation than Madsen appears to agree with. Simply "Not specifically Christian" seems to fit the contents better.
 * OK, let's try that.


 * The Episcopal priest and theologian Fleming Rutledge, in her 2004 book The Battle for Middle-earth: Tolkien's Divine Design in 'The Lord of the Rings', writes that Tolkien had constructed his book both as an exciting surface narrative, and as a deep theological narrative. She cites his statement that "I am a Christian (which can be deduced from my stories)."

Ref order at the end of this sentence -- should T8 be before 19?
 * Reordered.


 * Several commentators have seen Gandalf's passage through the Mines of Moria, dying to save his companions and returning as "Gandalf the White", as a symbol of the resurrection of Christ.

Ref order here, with 13 being placed after 29.
 * Fixed.


 * Frodo walks his "Via Dolorosa" to Mount Doom just like Jesus who made his way to Golgotha.

Would place a comma after 'Doom'.
 * Done.


 * Gandalf "announces 'The Lord of the Mark comes forth! and the king's entire aspect is transformed as he straightens his back to meet Gandalf's description".

This looks like there's a missing single-quote somewhere.
 * Fixed.

In the "Moral conflict" table, you switch partway through from a Good/Evil to a Good/Bad axis -- is this intentional?
 * Probably, but not fully consciously; it most likely seemed too much to use the E-word for those guys, but the influence they were under was indeed just that. Fixed.

Similarly, is the capitalization of 'Wizard' correct?
 * The intention is to capitalize the races, i.e. Wizard, Hobbit, Elf, etc.


 * Based on Tolkien's statements, Christian commentators have argued that a highly developed Eucharistic symbolism is carried by lembas and its history, elaborated further in The Silmarillion, noting that "waybread" can be seen as a translation of viaticum, the Eucharistic food for a journey.

This is a very long sentence that I'm sure could easily be two. It also has ref order issues, with 17 being listed last.
 * Split.


 * These Maiar were Wizards or Istari, of whom Gandalf is the best known to readers. Tolkien stated that they fitted the original Greek description "ἄγγελος" (Angelos) meaning messenger.

Another uncertain ref note in the same sense as before, where I'm not sure whether ordering the Tolkien/primary refs after the secondary refs is a quote-unquote ref order problem or not.
 * Reordered.


 * Rutledge comments that while there is no direct correspondence between any Lord of the Rings character and any biblical figure, still, Elbereth resembles the Virgin Mary in one sense, that she can grant favours, coming to the help of people in need.

I'm not happy with this sentence, which is decidedly unwieldy. "Rutledge comments that although there is no direct correspondence between any given Lord of the Rings character and Biblical figure, Elbereth has some resemblance to the Virgin Mary in that she can grant favours and come to the help of those in need"?
 * Done.

Overall, as you can tell from the fact I'm nitpicking prose and references, the article is structurally sound and solid work. Not much difficulty to take to GA. Vaticidalprophet 09:29, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, I've fixed all of those. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:10, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Vaticidalprophet 09:32, 22 March 2021 (UTC)