Talk:Christmas Tree (Lady Gaga song)

Background information
The article clearly needs some background information. I tried to give an impression of her popularity and how she was charting at the time of this song's release. I don't think that's fancruft. Legolas2186, what do you think should be included? -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 15:40, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Background information entails regarding the song's development, inspiration or any recording story associated with it. Not how much the artist was popular at that time. Addition of such things are WP:UNDUE and hence appears as fancruft. Whatever is present at this moment may not be sufficient info regarding the background, but this doesnot violate policy. --Legolas  ( talk 2 me ) 03:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Billboard Charting?
In a linked article here - Billboard's 100 Hot Holiday Songs - it claims that Christmas Tree charted at number 23 on Holiday/Seasonal Digital Songs chart in Nov. 2010. I don't have a subscription to verify this but, if true, we could add it to the article. I can only view the Top 10 for any week. Does anyone have a subscription to confirm? -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 01:43, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Umm, the source does show that the song charted at 23. I'm not sure how you cannot see it. Its a billboard.com link, available to all. — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 04:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think there are two separate charts involved. One is the one we can see: 100 Hot Holiday Songs, which is a combination of charts from October through to January (as explained on page 1 of the article) and in which Christmas Tree is number 23. The section says "Lady Gaga scaled a Billboard chart with "Tree": she went to No. 23 on the Holiday/Seasonal Digital Songs chart in Nov. 2010". The Holiday/Seasonal Digital Songs chart is different. I tried looking at November's archives for the chart but I, not having a subscription, can only see the top 10 for any week. The confusing thing is that she's at number 23 for both. If someone can confirm, we can list this in the article as charting on an official Billboard chart. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 16:56, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I cannot find a reliable source to confirm the song charting on the Holiday/Seasonal Digital Songs chart in November, although a Google search turns up a data dump at the Pulse Music message baords. However, the Billboard reference we have confirms that "Christmas Tree" reached number 23 on the HSDS chart in November and was placed at number 23 on the second list in December. I'm going to add this to the article. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 01:42, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Single?
According to I really don't not who, maybe Gaga or Interscope, Christmas Tree is a single. Its source, Gaga website, states "Format / Edition(s):Single", something that apparently in this website is not the same as our concept of single. The same website noted that the remixes of "LoveGame" were singles, and that "Chillin" is not a single, it's an album. This is questionable and it's exactly why we usually don't use sources from the artist's website. Tb hotch * ۩ ۞ 20:55, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The other source used was the iTunes store link. Either way there is no source for "promotional single" which was the other classification that was up for debate. At least the two sources provided showed that it wasn't simply original research by the editor. Anyone interested in the ongoing discussion concerning "single" versus "promotional single" is welcome to join in at the WP:SONGS talk page. Grk1011 (talk) 21:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It is called an iTunes single. You've got to be joking if you think a Lady GaGa singles means a digital release with no promotion. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  21:40, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * An iTunes single is still a single, it's just a different format. We do not note the type of single in the infobox naming (where it says "single by...."), that is what the "format" field is for. This is a long standing and heavily used practice. Grk1011 (talk) 21:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have already tried to use this argument to say TFM is a studio album. iTunes is just a retailer. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  21:46, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It has absolutely nothing to do with iTunes. It involves the correct use of an infobox, simple as that. Grk1011 (talk) 21:48, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I also said like Tbhotch that it wasn't listed as an EP on her website store. Did not work. I guess we can no longer use the promo single page as it obviously outdated. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  21:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Your reply has nothing to do with what I am saying. This is how it has always been: . A promotional single should still have a single's infobox. Grk1011 (talk) 21:54, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * My reply completely crumbles your argument. And no it should say promotional single not singles. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  21:58, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That makes so little sense I don't even know how to respond. Grk1011 (talk) 22:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You were pointing out is said single on her website and iTunes and I said that will not work. That diminishes your argument. Care to read? -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  22:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That wasn't my argument. My argument is not whether it is a promotional single or not (in this case it was distributed for free=promo single), but the way that it is shown with the infobox. All singles whether promo, digitial download, maxi, etc all use the singles infobox because they are all singles! Grk1011 (talk) 22:15, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry, that was Tbhotch's argument. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  22:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What the hell? Why does an edit war have to break out the one day I'm travelling just in time to fail the GAN??? -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 23:26, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, one of my links appears dead. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 23:37, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've reworked a bit to cover the dead reference and add extra sources I found. What should I do to get this to GA? I've worked really hard on this and it seems unfair to fail it due to a short-lived edit war. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 01:53, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Feel free reverting me when this get over. Any GA have to be stable per WP:GA? Tb hotch * ۩  ۞ 04:28, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I concede that the infobox should be the single one. I wasn't aware of the discussion at WT:SONGS. The fact that it was download-only is now explicitly cited in the article. If you have a look at the history of the article, you'll see that until yesterday, it was remarkably stable. If I relist this, will you quickfail it again? -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 14:08, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Why? It should use the same infobox as Wait Your Turn and Upgrade U. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  14:12, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Because Lady Gaga's website calls it a single and, despite not being on The Fame, it was released to download. The two songs you list charted due to strong digital downloads from the albums - i.e. the songs were available to download anyway. "Christmas Tree" was explicitly released separately from the album. It wasn't a promotional single because i) it was unrelated to the album and ii) there was no promotion involved. Seriously, finding sources for this article was like squeezing blood out of a turnip. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 16:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Um, yeah, those songs were released independently. That's easy enough to say just because it has a cover. It was digitally released in one country and received no promotion. As stated above, you cannot use her website. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  16:18, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with EA Sawyer 100%. There may not be the "best" sources for calling it a single, but there aren't any for calling it a promotional single. Also, as I said above, even if it was a promotional single, all singles should use the singles infobox and have the format "promotional" in the format field. Grk1011 (talk) 17:40, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Promotional singles are called singles all the time the same as TFM is constantly called a studio album. Anyway, why would you out promotional in the format section? A promotional single is not a format, as it can be released in several ways. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  17:51, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * My bad re:Upgrade U, which charted initially due to airplay and was then released as a 12-inch. But it was used to promote the album. Wait Your Turn charted initially due to digital downloads from the album. (The MTV reference in that article used to say it was a promotional single doesn't even mention the song.) But either way - there are no sources to call "Christmas Tree" a promotional single. It wasn't used to promote anything. There must be other sources calling it a single, which I'll look for now. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 18:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Allmusic calls it a digital only single. Will this do? -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 18:17, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Works for me. Grk1011 (talk) 18:38, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Digital only/iTunes single is just another name for a promotional single. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  18:50, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Says you, not reliable sources. Grk1011 (talk) 18:51, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Says discussions at WP:SONGS. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  18:58, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * They don't. Grk1011 (talk) 19:02, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

This can clear up a lot. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  19:57, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What does that clear up? The song wasn't sent to radio; it was made commercially available to download for money. The date isn't in question. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 20:06, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing you did not read every word of it. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  20:07, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe if you supplied us with a quote instead of a sea of text? Grk1011 (talk) 20:22, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 1 quote won't work. It takes all of it to fully understand this, especially for you and Greekboy, since it's getting annoying having to go through this with every promotional single. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  20:24, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you've fully understood this or not, but there is a discussion underway to determine what a promotional single is. It has not been decided yet, so I find your constant badgering and bigoted comments extremely annoying and inappropriate. Past consensus goes out the window when a new discussion on the same idea is set in motion. Consensus can always change, and you seem to be one of the few that refuse to accept this. Grk1011 (talk) 20:30, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Really? Because Lil-Unique and Ending-Start have already said my essay here was great. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  20:33, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Putting your opinion in an essay doesn't make it any more "right", especially if discussion is ongoing. "Christmas Tree" is a Christmas song (ref: Allmusic link above) so wouldn't have been promoted like her major singles because it would have been out-of-date by January. If you want something to compare the song to, The Killers release a Christmas song every year. They aren't promotional singles - they don't promote albums - they're just holiday songs for the sake of releasing a holiday song. I don't know how to say any more: "Christmas Tree" was a little-known single, obscure because it was released when Gaga wasn't as big as she is now and because it's not on The Fame. I find it bewildering that 12K of discussion has been generated and no one else has bothered to try to find sources claiming it's a promotional single. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 02:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Have you not heard me before? The information in that developing essay is taken from promo single, discussions on the talk pages of promo singles, and the talk page of WP:SONGS. And anyway, I already have two notable Wikipedia editors agree with the contents of it. It's a lot more than just one person's opinion. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  02:27, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have heard you. You are talking very loudly, presenting your opinion and essay of opinion as fact, refusing to address points above (such as the fact that there was no promotion regarding the song, it was not free like the Official Charts Company's definition on WT:SONGS, it was a holiday song like others I have presented by a notable band, there are reliable sources calling it a single and none calling it a promotional single) and doing nothing constructive to the article. I did read your essay and found it amusing that a song must be sent to US radio to be a single. Has it occurred to you that not all singles are released in the US? I have seen nothing to convince me that this song is a promotional single. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 02:45, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Songs released to US radio being considered singles comes directly from a WP:SONGS discussion. What's amusing is your reply. Holiday song? What? That's a genre. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  02:52, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Your essay lists "Serviced to US radio with an official radio add date" as a necessary criterion for being an official single. I disagree. But you're still not addressing my points. Why is this song a promotional single? Find me a reliable source, not your own WP:SYNTHESIS. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 20:13, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Synthesis? I'm taking two sources and joining them together? XD If you disagree you can take it up at WP:SONGS. Why? It was released in one country digitally. It wasn't even promoted. Would you consider that par to the promotion that her other singles received? Just think about it. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  20:19, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue is already being discussed at WP:SONGS. You keep claiming that your essay is based on past consensuses, but you fail to realize that there is no consensus anymore which is why there is a debate. You need to find a source related to this song specifically. I wouldn't call it synthesis necessarily, but it is definitely original research to apply some view on another article without a source verifying it. Grk1011 (talk) 20:29, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Cprice, "Christmas Tree" was a holiday single. Yes, I know that's a genre rather than a format but it's relevant to this discussion. It means that people will only care about it for, maybe, one month per year. Of course it didn't get the promotion and coverage that "Just Dance" and "Poker Face" did. As it was a holiday single, its release was different. "Dance in the Dark" was a promotional single because it promoted the album. Upgrade U promoted its parent album. This song is like the holiday songs by the Killers that I offered above as an example. They weren't promotional singles - they didn't promote parent albums - and neither was this.
 * Please, I've put a hell of a lot of work into this article and quick-failing WP:GAN has motivated me to put more work in. In fact, if I can get hold of sheet music, I might list this at WP:FAC. Derailing it further by quibbling helps nothing and no one. You're not helping the article. You're just annoying people. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 20:53, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't want to start this discussion here, but a promotional single isn't just any single released from an album to promote it. Dance in the Dark isn't a promotional single because it was released for sale. Promos are giveaways to radio stations, djs, etc. and are almost always marked "not for sale". Cprice, I know you disagree, but we already know your opinion, so please don't repeat it. Grk1011 (talk) 20:59, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * How is it an opinion??? iTunes sells promos and yet they are free??? Makes no sense. -- ĈÞЯİŒ  1ооо  21:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Whether iTunes sells promos or not is part of the discussion. Stop acting like it has already been decided, as usual. Grk1011 (talk) 21:10, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Sheet Music
While I've had no luck at musicnotes.com and sheetmusicplus.com, I seem to have found someone with sheet music at pianofiles.com [here]. I've messaged someone, hopefully the same person, with the same name at YouTube so she might get back to me. Does anyone have membership of pianofiles to message from there? And more importantly, can anyone here read sheet music? -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 21:13, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I can read sheet music completely, but I doubt how much of that pianofiles.com node is reliable. — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 04:46, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If I can get hold of it, would you be able to tell if it was correct? (I wouldn't hold your breath, to be honest.) -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 13:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Lol, ya I can tell that. I'm trying to see if I can get the Lady Gaga sheet music book from Musicnotes.com. — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 03:51, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've had a look through that site several times and I'm not sure if anything on there contained the sheet music to this song. Also, there's an excellent piano version on youtube here but she's playing by ear. I've messaged the user and she doesn't have sheet music, sadly. By the way, you're doing a great job over at Born This Way. I'll be so glad when the album is out and there's concrete information on it. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 00:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a Lady Gaga The Fame Monster book there. Lemem search again. And thanks for Born This Way but I'm not even doing half of what I do on my articles. Look at the other Gaga album articles and look at the current one. Its horrible. — Legolas ( talk 2 me ) 05:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Reference to review
An editor has referred to a reference in his edit summary. Can someone review the source, and update the article so the information is consistent on this matter? --Ronz (talk) 21:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

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