Talk:Christmas music/Archive 1

Christmas songs (Best and Worst)
Is this section really needed? It paints the singles in an unflattering light, which is unfair considering they all (except Hot Pantz) did quite well. Saying At This Time Of Year 'sank without a trace' is also misleading, seeing as it reached number 14. Besides, is one channel's view on the 'worst' Christmas singles really that notable? BillyH 14:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's any good and have removed it - perhaps it could go into a separate article. violet/riga (t) 15:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

REPLY i do not think this is really needed because it is not the whole worlds view and so people could rate a song differently.

Bob the builder???
I must say, I've never heard of Bob the Builder as being associated with Christmas. If someone has a reference to this, please let me know, otherwise I'll remove it in a few days. Phantom784 19:05, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It was the Christmas number one single in the UK back in 2000, selling over a million copies. BillyH 19:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I never knew that, living in the US. Phantom784 19:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * And how many of them were returned on Boxing Day? Wahkeenah 19:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Mess
This is a horrible article. Huge, nebulous lists of poorly defined subjects. Ramblings bordering on the incoherent. Few citations. Weasel words. Possible expression of personal opinion. Inaccurate and obscure references to "spring day", which is not at all properly introduced.

I recommend a complete rewrite or even deletion, given the ample information available on individual Christmas songs. MergeCar 01:12, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Could we use this page (the intro paragraphs) as one that splits with thinks to the different types of music, e.g. Christmas/Advent hymns, traditional carols, and 20th century songs? Hymns & traditional carols are repeatedly listed with modern artists (see "Joy to the World", "O Holy Night" among others). EC2 15:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. Would you even add "Jolly Old St. Nicholas" to the list?  Here's a link to this song. --Angeldeb82 22:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree that the article is atrocious. I'm deleting the worst of it and have moved some to separate list articles. I've done all I can today, and maybe someone else will continue cleanup. Kla'quot 07:54, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

A new section on the evolution of Christmas music
I was thinking that this article could include a short little section describing how Christmas music has evolved. I know we've talked a little about the history of the proper carols, but I've thought let's include a broader history on Christmas music, including the recent secular songs. I don't know if my section will be all right, but I'd be happy to let you improve on it. I'm sorry but I fear that I haven't got a paragraph on the history of the carol before the 18th century.

Most of the carols we sing today come from the 18th and 19th centuries, either as newly composed carols or new words written for old tunes. Although some carols, such as Silent Night, O Come All Ye Faithful and We Three Kings were newly written, others were composites of words and music from different eras. Hark! The Herald Angels Sing is one example, since it was a composite of a text by Charles Wesley a tune by Felix Mendelssohn. Good King Wenceslas and What Child is This were newly-written texts set to old tunes. All these developments emerged amid the backdrop of a Christmas that Charles Dickens idealised in A Christmas Carol, celebrating at home by the fireside, alongside Clement Clarke Moore's depiction of Santa Claus in his poem A Visit from St. Nicholas, or more commonly known as The Night Before Christmas.

The turn of the 20th Century saw the developments of popular culture and sound recording. These too had a part to play in Christmas music as a whole. This time, the Christmas songs that were written over this period tended to be more secular, emerging mainly from the styles of Tin Pan Alley and other popular styles such as blues and rock. Songs such as Santa Claus is Coming to Town and Winter Wonderland were written in this context, and were introduced through radio programmes. Music from popular entertainments such as films and movies also contributed songs to the Christmas songbook, with such notable examples as White Christmas from the film Holiday Inn, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, Silver Bells from The Lemon Drop Kid and Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas from Meet Me in St. Louis.

Recording has been a powerful force of Christmas music such that many music artists have recorded albums of Christmas songs and carols to cash in on the season. Shopping centres also play muzak arrangements of Christmas songs during the Christmas season. Recording has also promoted the competition for Christmas hit singles that chart during the season.Yip1982 (talk) 07:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

What happened to "classical" music for the church from chant to masses to who knows what else?
see subject header —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shlishke (talk • contribs) 03:58, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Music album record white christmas.jpg
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Bob Rivers
Bob Rivers has done a number of novelty Christmas songs based off secular hit songs and traditional Christmas/non-traditional Christmas songs like "Grandpa Got Ran Over by a Beer Truck," "There's A Santa Who Looks a lot like Elvis," "Rummy Rocker Boy," "Wreck the Malls," "Parking Spaces," "Toy Sack," "All You Need Is Elves," and many others. So where would he fit on the list of novelty songs?
 * Add a paragraph, almost like the one you've written here.Artaxerxes (talk) 19:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added him to the novelty section. If there is anything you could add, change, fix or whatever to that section, then feel free to do so.   Mr. C.C. Hey yo!I didn't do it! 01:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Messiah
Handel's Messiah was not (!) composed for Christmas, it was composed for Lent and covers the church year from Advent to the end. Part I, sometimes called Christmas portion, is often performed during the Christmas season. How can we word that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you're referring to the mention of "Messiah" in the church feasts section (which does not actually say it was written for Christmas). In the adopted Christmas music section, I don't know if it needs to be any clearer:  "Perhaps the most famous Christmas music of all, Handel's "Messiah", was written for an Easter performance in 1742 in Ireland, and performed from 1750 until Handel's death for the Foundling Hospital for orphans around Eastertime." Artaxerxes (talk) 19:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * First, you are right, Church feast section, bolding by me: "The status of Christmas ... a long tradition of music specially composed for celebrating the season. The following is a brief and non-exhaustive list of notable compositions", then Messiah. And the other mentioning is also not precise, Easter is not Lent. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:08, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Mariah Carey
This entire article, and most of the songs it links to, is one giant Mariah Carey ad. Please.
 * I have to disagree with you. there aren't that many songs from Mariah Carey to really be noticeable.
 * -(Y.krzepicki 00:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC))

I only know of ONE actually, All I want for Christmas is you, what other Christmas Songs has she sung? The snare (talk) 04:23, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

New sections
New sections that might help the article include. . Artaxerxes (talk) 16:08, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) A section on musical style is missing: what is it that makes Christmas music what it is (and so popular)? the different styles over time? that make up carols?
 * 2) Popularity could either be a subsection of musical style, or a major section--including survey results, radio play, etc.
 * 3) On the same level as traditional, popular, and novelty might be a section on 'alternative Christmas music'--songs that take an alternate view of the holiday, that say it's a lonely time, or that question its meaning or tradition, or are dark (maybe). This could also be a subsection of a bigger popular section.
 * 4) The article dedicated to popular Christmas albums could be used as basis for a related section here.
 * 5) Popular Christmas music (in the States, at least) written by non-Christians has been touched on related to the ASCAP list. There's more to the story, like their role in creating the 'industry' of popular Christmas music to begin with, their appreciation and enjoyment of Christmas music, major non-Christian performers who have made Christmas albums, and non-Christian songs that are a part of the Christmas music canon (such as 'Oh Hanukkah' and some novelty songs)  Otherwise, there's enough on it to make a stand-alone article.
 * 6) Non-English Christmas songs might merit a separate section. Many now-English carols started out in other languages.  Many popular Christmas songs are in other languages, e.g., 'Buon Natale', 'Feliz Navidad', Latin ones, etc.  This might help bring in discussion of Christmas music  outside the 'Anglosphere' (though I don't know how much this is a requirement on the English Wiki page, especially with so many other pages now in other languages).

Christmas music on radio (page/article)
Christmas music on the radio, discussed here, is such a broad topic--especially with all the internet now brings to it--that it might merit its own page/article (moving some related material from this page). Artaxerxes (talk) 15:38, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Christmas music by genre
Country Christmas music, blues Christmas music, rock and roll Christmas music, etc. represent huge categories of music by themselves. A subsection with a paragraph or two of text might do here, but there's enough there for a separate related page/article. Artaxerxes (talk) 12:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Article assessment
This article no longer seems to be 'start class', certainly, though many enhancements can yet be made. At what point should an article assessment be requested? Best to focus on a set of improvements then request it? Artaxerxes (talk) 12:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Other countries
The Australian government gives a short description of Christmas music differences in Australia at Australian Goverment. Not having much luck finding similar for Canada or for Ireland. All help appreciated on this. Anything on New Zealand (or others) out there?Artaxerxes (talk) 00:12, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This has now been used as the basis for a related section. Artaxerxes (talk) 13:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

List of carols intro/summary/overview
This section needs an intro or summary overview, including general aspects of song histories, how they tended to come together. Maybe something on musical style. I've drafted one at the end of the 'Other' sub-list that could be adapted for the entire section. Excellent summaries on individual songs appear and their related pages/articles. This might be broken down into a chart/table, but it seems a little hard to present that way. Perhaps a short line or two on each title could be included here, each touching on a similar set of aspects. Or perhaps the whole section could be organized/broken down by type, history, language, or some other way that would help describe them more clearly. Artaxerxes (talk) 13:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Info from List of Christmas carols
Much of the information in the "Popular Christmas songs that are not considered carols" from the List of Christmas Carols article could be blended with this entire article - as if each page could learn something from the other. The "carols" article seems to be organized much better and gives many more dates, while this one has much more information. The majority from the "carols" article fit with the ones under General Christmas Songs in this one - I personally prefer the term standards for these types. EC2 22:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Great, but what about "Santa's a Fat Bitch" and "Red Christmas" by Insane Clown Posse? Do these make the list?  Could they be too gory and vulgar for Christmas? --Angeldeb82 17:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Jingle Bells
Surprised it's hardly mentioned, except for a cover version. That's the absolute first song I, and I think most people think of when thinking of Christmas, as well as one of the most commonly heard. The snare (talk) 04:15, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I see it's officially a Thanksgiving Song, but see my note in the Jingle Bell article's discussion page The snare (talk) 04:21, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I do not think anyone regards Jingle bells as a "carol"? Wis2fan (talk) 02:25, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we put Jingle Bells and Up on the Housetop separately from the traditional carols? They are half-way between the old carols and the secular Christmas pop songs. Yip1982 (talk) 09:31, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Jingle Bells and the early secular American Christmas songs
When I edited this article recently, I thought it would be good to separate Jingle Bells and Up on the Housetop from the list of standard carols. These are early secular Christmas songs and their subject matter (winter, Santa, sleigh rides) has more in common with the 20th-century popular Christmas songs than the traditional carols in this section. I created a separate sub-section under the traditional carols so that I could mention Jingle Bells, Up on the Housetop and Jolly Old Saint Nicholas. However I mentioned them in the next section on popular Christmas songs.

I know some people may disagree with me here. I know that there are secular carols such as Deck the hall, We wish you a merry Christmas, The twelve days of Christmas and Here we come a-wassailing. However, I don't think that Jingle Bells and Up on the Housetop qualify as carols.

How can I mention them better in the section on traditional carols, and how can I integrate these secular songs into the section on popular Christmas songs? Yip1982 (talk) 08:33, 26 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The definition of a carol itself is a matter of some discussion. Perhaps a secular breakout to the list would help. I wouldn't be for moving these two titles out of carols until greater clarity on what we're talking about has been established.  ('Jingle Bells' is addressed later in Adopted section.) Artaxerxes (talk) 13:22, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Carols vs. Songs
This section seems inconsistent:

"Songs which are traditional, even some without a specific religious context, are often called Christmas carols. Some songs of more recent vintage, often introduced in films, are specifically about Christmas, but are typically not overtly religious and therefore do not qualify as Christmas carols." The first sentence implies that religious content is not necessary for something to quality as a carol, the second implies that it is. It seems that the distinction has more to do with the vintage of the song rather than its content.68.255.73.196 01:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd always thought that a carol was a specifically religious Christmas song, but I'm not an authority....PurpleChez (talk) 20:45, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure "Up on the House Top" belongs with traditional carols. It's 1860s, but I associate it with the later more popular Christmas songs.Artaxerxes (talk) 16:07, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it would be good to either put Jingle Bells and Up on the housetop in their own section, or list them in the section on popular Christmas songs. I agree with you that they've got more in common with the popular Christmas songs even if they come from a century earlier and didn't have the advantage of entertainment media. In line with this I opted to shift these songs to the section on popular Christmas songs, but I would like some help in editing this part so that it flows better. Yip1982 (talk) 12:53, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Traditional Christmas Songs
This section is a complete mess only 1/3 of the songs in it are actually traditional Christmas songs, the other 1/3 are carols (which are in a completely differenty article altogether!) and the other 1/3 are singles which should be put into the section below it. If you don't understand what I'm on about, here's an example taken from the first few lines of the section:

"12 Days of Christmas" - which right enough should be there as it is traditional "All I Want for Christmas Is You" - THIS IS A HIT SINGLE BY MARIAH CAREY, it shouldn't be here "Angels We Have Heard on High" - Carol, shouldn't be in the article at all has its own "Ave Maria" - traditional should stay "Away In A Manger" - traditional turned carol should stay "Blue Christmas" - HIT SINGLE, should go

I've done as much as I can with the other 2 sections, but can someone please help clean this one up. Also the page for List of Christmas Carols contains pop songs(!) in the non-religious section!!! Help needed, Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jkaharper (talk • contribs) 21:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

Traditional songs should be sung traditionally, not with a lot of screaming, hollering, off tempo, and key. Like the star spangled banner they should be sung as written, not degraded. nevrite.

Standard carols
Your list of "standard" carols seems to focus on those that are standard in America. Is it fair to include Once in royal David's city if it's a standard in Britain? Yip1982 (talk) 09:33, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The article should at least cover the anglophone countries--which certainly begins with/includes the U.K. (meaning there should be no need, in a list of the sort you refer to, to highlight--parenthetically or otherwise--a U.K. focus). Several sections of the article focus intently on the U.K.  A bit on Australia has been added in the article (more has been researched for Ireland and Canada without much result).  Most of the 'standard' carols in the list have a British Isles origin, saying nothing of countries where they might now be sung/performed as 'standard'.  A separate page/article could be generated for Christmas music in the U.K., as might one be created for Rest of World.  For now, to cover the bases, they should at least be given overview treatment where possible. Artaxerxes (talk) 15:18, 25 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Good. If that is so I'm sure it would be a good idea to reclassify Once in royal David's city as a standard carol in the Anglophone countries.

I have also mentioned Angels, from the realms of glory as a standard carol. When you mention Angels we have heard on high, you're referring to the American derivation of the French tune Les anges dans nos campagnes. Although the USA has a different tune for the text of Angels from the realms of glory the UK sets this text to the tune of Les anges dans nos campagnes, replacing the "Come and worship Christ the new-born King" refrain with "Gloria in excelsis Deo." Interestingly enough the Mormon Tabernacle Choir's recent Christmas concerts use this version of Angels from the realms of glory as a closer. Yip1982 (talk) 08:14, 26 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It may be that having a separate list for 'standards' in the U.S. and the U.K. would be beneficial--but this would seem to depend first on some sort of a definition of what 'standard' means (much like 'classic', it changes depending on user). There used to be waffling language introducing the list ('more or less standard' or something like that; I think I cut it at one point).  Introducing it in such a way, to leave room for interpretation and to make clear what countries are included, might help. (Many of the songs seem to have a French origin.  Where they came from is not so important as how they are regarded today.) Artaxerxes (talk) 13:18, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

As for 'Ding Dong', from its Wiki page: 'The lyrics are from English composer George Ratcliffe Woodward (1848–1934), and it was first published in 1924 in his The Cambridge Carol-Book: Being Fifty-two Songs for Christmas, Easter, And Other Seasons.' This makes its origins very English, but doesn't establish how 'standard' it is today (anywhere). Artaxerxes (talk) 13:18, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Recent carols
I added a section under the Traditional Christmas Carols header so that I could mention some of the recent carols that are also heard together with the traditional ones and the popular Christmas songs. In this section I included Mary's Boy Child, Carol of the Drum (Little Drummer Boy), Do you hear what I hear?, Little Donkey, It was on a starry night and the Calypso Carol. I know that the last three might not be well-known outside Britain but it might be worth a mention to expose the small repertoire of copyrighted carols that might not get much airtime during the Christmas period.

Can you see whether you can integrate this into the main body of the article? It would be a shame to delete it.Yip1982 (talk) 06:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The issues would seem to be definitional (what is a carol?), article sections/categories (useful, clear?), and sourcing (even with so much of the article going without proper referencing). The article will likely need to be broken out further--lists of songs/categories going into dedicated pages--to make it more readable. Artaxerxes (talk) 15:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe this material goes best in the dedicated Christmas carols article, which seems pretty well-developed. Artaxerxes (talk) 14:38, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Tried to add this on Drummer Boy from a banned site: "between them . . created this poor, little soldier boy, an original tune and a popular kind of military rhythm, which sounds as a distant march in the hills of your Christmas imagination." Artaxerxes (talk) 14:38, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Breaking out article: U.K., U.S., etc.
Sufficient material exists to break out a separate 'Christmas music in the United Kingdom' article: the history, the radio #1 stuff, the song histories, etc. A new 'Christmas music in the United States' might then also be broken out. Other English-speaking bits--Australia for now, maybe others one day--could go in the U.K. article (Canada to U.S. one, maybe, if there's anything on it). The main article would then do summaries of with links of what got broken out. Mainly, though, it might focus more on Christmas music as a genre: definitions (carols, etc.), styles, what makes a Christmas song distinctive, etc. As it stands, the article has a number of highly-detailed elements, but, after going on a meander, it lacks a cohesive thread that gets to a concise answer of what Christmas music is. --Artaxerxes (talk) 20:37, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

U.K. song histories
Removing these here, thinking they would work on a dedicated U.K. page, but are a little much on this general page.

"====Song histories====" Currently, popular Christmas songs in the U.K. arise from diverse artist inspirations, aims, social concerns, and takes on the holiday itself. Many share roots in major U.S. popular Christmas tunes, either in actual musical terms or in originating artist favorites. Illustrative examples of this include:


 * "Merry Xmas Everybody" by Slade (1973): Noddy Holder, who co-wrote the song with bassist Jim Lea, gained inspiration from his co-writer's motheri-n-law, who'd asked "why we'd never brought a song out, something that could come out every year like, 'Happy Birthday' or a Christmas-type song." At the time "the country was in real turmoil": "Miners were on strike, bakers were on strike, grave diggers were on strike, electric workers were on strike." He feels "'Merry Xmas' provided a real optimistic outlook – 'look to the future now it's only just begun'." The song, a Christmas number one for Slade in 1973, has been "a longevity boost for the band and the band's product as well." Holder's "favourite other Christmas song" is "All I Want for Christmas Is You" by Mariah Carey.
 * "I Wish It Could Be Christmas Everyday" by Wizzard (1973): Songwriter Roy Wood of Wizzard says they "recorded it in the August and . . we put on some big fans and blue lights and left them on for an hour. So we got the band to record the song in overcoats and scarves and we put a Christmas tree up and lights and all that sort of stuff." Wood's song, performed by Wizzard, reached number four in 1973. Wood's "favourite other festive song" is "All I Want for Christmas Is You" by Mariah Carey.
 * "I Believe in Father Christmas" by Greg Lake of Emerson, Lake & Palmer (1974): Lake "wrote the guitar riff first and . . stumbled on the thought that the song Jingle Bells fitted over [it]. He and his co-writer Peter Sinfield, formerly of rock band King Crimson, "thought maybe it could be a Christmas song."  The composition "features a motif from Prokofiev's "Lieutenant Kijé" suite which has since "become synonymous with Christmas."  It made Christmas number two in 1975 behind Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody". Lake, who rates his "favourite festive songs" to be Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" and "Happy Xmas (War Is Over)" by John Lennon, says it was "a serious song lamenting the fact that Christmas had moved away from being a season of goodwill and peace on earth to all men to being about commerciality."
 * "A Spaceman Came Travelling" by Chris de Burgh (1976): De Burgh, who had just signed his first recording contract with A&M Records, was broke and "staying at a friend's flat" when he read Chariots of the Gods? by Erich von Däniken. The book made him think "what if the star of Bethlehem was a space craft and what if there is a benevolent being or entity in the universe keeping an eye on the world and our foolish things that we do to each other?" A  fan of Irish poet William Butler Yeats, whose work "The Second Coming" avers that every 2,000 years or so there would be a major cataclysmic event happening, de Burgh saw the birth of Christ as "such an event and then 2,000 years later there would be a similar" one.  He imagined "the nativity scene, the thing hovering over and I could see the shepherds in the fields and this weird, ethereal music was drifting into the air and they were 'what the heck is that'?"  But he "had no ideas about trying to write a hit record." The song failed to chart when it was first released as a single, but De Burgh says it's been "much better to have a regular recurring song than a hit for three weeks."  Like Lake, de Burgh's favourite Christmas song is "White Christmas", sung by Bing Crosby.
 * "Stop the Cavalry" by Jona Lewie (1980): Lewis says the song started out "with a lyric idea . . a thing about the Crimean War where people were just in the charge of the light brigade . . charging to their deaths." He first did the brass line on a kazoo, only later – "once the whole thing started to mould itself into something" – using "a military brass band from Yorkshire."  Though he "absolutely did not sit down with the idea of writing a big Christmas hit," the song made Christmas number three for Lewis in 1980, hitting that spot "at the very moment when John Lennon was assassinated and his assassination led to him occupying the number one and number two positions." (This is an error: "There's No One Quite Like Grandma" by the St. Winifred's School Choir was number-one that year, preventing both Lennon and Lewie from reaching the top spot; Lennon ended up at #2 on that week's charts.)  The hit still provides "about 50% of (his) total income stream" (from music royalties).  His "favourite other festive songs" are Lake's "I Believe in Father Christmas" and Elvis Presley's "Santa Claus Is Back in Town".
 * "Merry Christmas Everyone" by Shakin' Stevens (1985): Songwriter Bob Heatlie directly states: "To be honest, I've always wanted to have a Christmas hit."  His first effort became a Christmas number one for Shakin' Stevens in 1985.  But the climate was a challenge: "It was in the middle of a heat wave which is unusual in Scotland . . I remember standing in my shorts and nothing else, recording these jingle bells and the sweat was just pouring down me . . I thought, 'this is crazy singing about Christmas while I'm sweating like a pig'."  The effort has provided eternal reward:  "If you crack it, it's an evergreen and it goes on forever and, even though your career might be over, you've always got that." His "favourite other festive songs" are "Fairytale of New York" by The Pogues and "I Wish It Could Be Christmas Everyday" by Wizzard.
 * "Fairytale of New York" by The Pogues with Kirsty MacColl (1987): Jem Finer decided to start writing a Christmas song, but his wife "said it was a load of rubbish, lyrically and narratively speaking, so she suggested a storyline about a couple who are down on their luck." Frontman Shane MacGowan had been working on a Christmas duet, so they decided to use his story: "The guy went out with what little money they had to buy a Christmas tree and presents but, on the way, he decided to go into the bookies and it all went horribly wrong . . But then . . love took over from the more material aspects of Christmas."  The song was a Christmas number two for The Pogues in 1987. His "favourite other festive song" is Captain Beefheart's "There Ain't No Santa Claus on the Evenin' Stage". Surveys consistently rank the song the nation's favourite at Christmas.
 * "Mistletoe and Wine" by Cliff Richard (1988): Originally written in 1976 for a musical of Hans Christian Andersen's The Little Match Girl directed by songwriter Jeremy Paul, the song had "almost the opposite to its meaning now. We wanted a satirical Christmas carol when the little match girl is being kicked away into the snow by the unfeeling middle classes in a Dickensian setting."  Co-written with Leslie Stewart and Keith Strachan, it became a Christmas number one for Cliff Richard in 1988, his 99th single, and it was the best-selling single of the year.  "We were absolutely overwhelmed by it," says Paul. "We didn't particularly, the three of us co-writers, at that point, understand the power of Cliff's world." Paul's "favourite other festive song" is "Santa Baby" by Eartha Kitt. --Artaxerxes (talk) 00:21, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Christmas creep?
This section strikes me as gratuitous. I think it should be removed. TheScotch (talk) 05:29, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The section has been removed, with the radio-related part shifted to the Radio section below. Removed text appears below:
 * === Christmas creep ===


 * Traditionally in the United States and elsewhere, the playing of Christmas music would generally begin after the late-November Thanksgiving holidays, at which point Christmas decorations in stores and on streets would also appear, but the music and related decor have been appearing earlier in the year. This tendency for the length of the Christmas and holiday season to grow is referred to as "Christmas creep".  Given the importance of seasonal gift-giving to many economies (for example, the U.S. economy is one driven largely by consumer spending) and with the music industry making at least 40 percent of its annual revenue in the fourth quarter culminating at Christmas, demands for increased revenues motivates the shift.  Christmas music best serenades these shopping months, injecting the Christmas spirit and putting shoppers into the proper mood for buying gifts.--Artaxerxes (talk) 18:54, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

24/7 Christmas radio format
This highly-detailed description of which specific radio stations switch to a 24/7 Christmas (and when) might best go into a dedicated Christmas music radio page?
 * "Some in the industry speculate that more stations may start programming 24/7 Christmas music as early as November 1 each year, which could result in dozens of stations (instead of the half-dozen or so stations in prior years) "taking the plunge" on that first day after Halloween (although November 1 is the Day of the Dead, the reason for Halloween's existence). As of the last week of October 2010, four stations had changed to the format. Two of them (WSMM in South Bend, Indiana and an admittedly stunting WSHP in Lafayette, Indiana) did so on their analog channel; the other two were automated digital-only channels, WBEB HD2 and WPEN HD2, both in Philadelphia. The number of "all-Christmas" radio stations indeed jumped on November 1; for instance, four stations in upstate New York adopted the format that morning. HD Radio also allows for the expansion of Christmas music beyond Christmas Day and into early January, much as WLIT does after Christmas.


 * Every year stationintel.com compiles a list of all stations that play the format. In 2011, the first station in North America to adopt a 24/7 all-Christmas format was WEZW in Wildwood Crest, New Jersey, which serves the southeastern corner of that state, including Cape May and the fringes of Atlantic City. WEZW switched on October 16, some 68 days prior to Christmas. What makes WEZW's case unusual is that in previous years, stations that changed to Christmas music in mid-October were generally stunting (see below) in anticipation of a change to a different format after the Christmas holiday; WEZW did not do so, thus obliterating—by over a week—the previous record for the earliest change by a non-stunting commercial analog station.


 * For 2012, KYXE-FM, a new sign-on station in Yakima, Washington, was the first terrestrial station in the United States to begin broadcasting the Christmas format, using the service called North Pole Radio. WEZW, the first station to do so in 2011, was also the first station to change to the Christmas format in 2012 (the distinction is that KYXE had signed on for the first time with the Christmas format). The first HD subchannel to carry Christmas music was the specially created HD3 channel of WODS, which signed on October 24. On Halloween, WLTQ, which flipped to Christmas early in 2011 ahead of rebranding their on-air identity, started airing all Christmas music.


 * The first station to change to the format in 2013 was WNDR-FM, a station in Mexico, New York (a town between Syracuse and Watertown). As with most exceptionally early adopters, WNDR-FM is stunting; its previous format moved to another frequency immediately prior to the move."--Artaxerxes (talk) 23:40, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Christmas songs from film
This was at one time a subsection in the article. It's quite a long list. Here's a recent one:
 * "Do You Want to Build a Snowman?" (2013), a song from the movie Frozen that found its way into radio stations' Christmas rotations shortly after the film's release.--Artaxerxes 15:04, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Christmas Music Articles/Pages
Christmas music is a broad enough topic—with enough related material being generated—to justify dedicated pages/articles on a number of sub-topics. I could see, for example, pages for: Christmas carols already have separate pages. This main topic page would presumably have brief overviews of these topics with links to their individual pages. I would hope, too, that the main page might then have room for a bigger/better discussion of what Christmas music is—topically, stylistically, musically—what makes it distinctive, memorable, identifiable as Christmas music. Artaxerxes 19:50, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * History of Christmas Music
 * Popular Christmas Music (US)
 * Popular Christmas Music (other anglophone countries)
 * Adopted Christmas Music
 * Christmas Songs from Musicals (theater and cinema)
 * Christmas Novelty Songs
 * Christmas Radio Broadcasting

Lede
Thank you for the effort and care expended on crafting a more extensive lede. For me it needs to be better keyed to the material in the page below, and briefer -- so visitors can get to the table of contents faster (if for no other reason). Being met by a page-long introduction to the page might be a bit of a turn off. It focuses mainly on the history without highlighting the rest of what's in the article, too.Artaxerxes 18:51, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Popular Christmas songs
Might it be better to structure this section into paragraphs on each of the different types of Christmas song (traditional carol, composed carol, pop song, novelty song, etc), using the different songs and carols as examples? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yip1982 (talk • contribs) 04:26, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with this approach. Artaxerxes (talk) 14:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Except I don't get the types laid out here (what's a 'composed carol'?) A thematic breakout might work--nativity, Santa Claus myth, winter, etc.--under which genres would break out--even novelty. Bigger genre groupings merit their own pages, e.g., classical, rock 'n' roll, blues, country, etc. Radio looks like a separate page; maybe non-U.S. English-speaking, too. Artaxerxes (talk) 13:41, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

The info here seems slightly erratic. The names following the song titles at first appear to be composers and lyricists--and many/most are--but some are performers. A few include performers but many don't mention any. This could probably be made a little more consistent. It might work better as a chart or table, where composers and performers could be in separate and distinct columns. Just a thought.PurpleChez (talk) 20:44, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

The section title 'Most-performed Christmas songs (USA)' misleads some as the source refers to them as 'holiday' songs. I personally do not like this latter term, but that is what the source uses. Artaxerxes (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

The section now named/numbered '3.2.4 Song histories' might best be described in text form; a couple paragraphs highlighting key aspects, making overall sense of it, tying it to the 'number one singles', describing differences between U.S./U.K. Christmas music, etc. Artaxerxes (talk) 14:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The other popular section was meant to capture Christmas songs that didn't make the top lists in the U.S. and U.K. Now the paragraph is so far from the ASCAP list the explanatory sentence needs a little more to make that connection clear. Songs (just removed) like "What Do The Lonely Do at Christmas?" by The Emotions, "Twinkle Twinkle Little Me" don't seem to be big enough to merit mention in this section. Artaxerxes (talk) 13:41, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Omission of previously popular songs which are since controversial such as "Another Rock and Roll Christmas" by Gary Glitter 1984. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.207.47 (talk) 08:35, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

External Link Spam
Why is there links to ringtones and MP3 sites at the bottom? I am marking for clean-up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.3.99.77 (talk) 13:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Would Be Very Useful to Make a Chronological List
The Christmas celebration has changed over the centuries. An exciting thing I think would be a Chronological List of Christmas Carols, by the date composed. That would perhaps add needed order and interesting links to the whole subject. Mlhooten —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.82.166.31 (talk) 20:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

External links to commercial sites?
Way back on 19:39, 29 November 2006, a bunch of Internet-based Christmas Music radio stations were removed from the external links. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christmas_music&diff=90967875&oldid=90966059 It seems those could be relevant to be linked, since it allows people to listen to Christmas music. I'd love for my site to be added back again, but the guidelines say not to add your own site. Should Christmas Broadband be removed from the external link list, or could my site/Internet radio station be added? Christmas Music 24/7 - reachable in Google. Thanks, Mike —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.90.84 (talk) 19:47, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge
After expanding the introduction of this article (Christmas music) I began to think that perhaps it would be a good idea to merge Christmas carol with this article. Christmas carols are obviously part of Christmas music, and the current setup is a bit confusing and disparate, as you have a "History" section in both articles, but the history of both topics covers basically the same subject matter. Would it not be more encyclopedic and concise to merge Christmas carol here? In common parlance Christmas "carols" are often the older, religious carols, whereas Christmas "songs" are often the more modern songs or the secular ones, but "Christmas carol" is also used to refer to the secular songs, it's not a universal distinction, and it often adds confusion. Bringing it all under one overarching article would help make it easier to delineate the differences and distinctions between the two. Thoughts? —  Crumpled Fire   • contribs • 16:46, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Both are already longish articles, and a merged version would start to become sprawling and unwieldy. As one is a subset of the other, the current split is quite sensible in my view. MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:23, 4 December 2017 (UTC)


 * I oppose a merge. Christmas carol is a rather well-defined subset, with a category, to which I often link, compare Ich steh an deiner Krippen hier . It serves readers better to arrive at the top of an article rather than in the middle, not knowing the title. I hope you don't consider to merge Christmas cantata? Perhaps this could rather be Christmas song, including Christmas hymns and secular songs? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:37, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Having looked closer, I agree: much of this article could be merged to "Carol", while other aspects of Christmas music don't even appear in the lead, such as Christmas cantatas and the regular performances of Handel's Messiah (although not meant as Christmas music). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:30, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
 * This main page needs to go in quite the other direction: breaking out into related pages with only summaries here. It is ridiculously long and cumbersome, packed with content that could be expanded on separate pages. This certainly applies to carols. Summarize here, amplify there.--Artaxerxes 23:32, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Type in table in Most-performed Christmas songs
The type is not sourced. It also doesn't add to the information provided. Since it appears to be WP:OR, I plan to remove it unless someone can give a good reason for keeping it. It would also be good to see how the ranking has changed over time. At the beginning of 2015, the chart included a ranking from a similar 2006 review. The capitalization was modified (probably against MOS:CAPS) by user:Musdan77 on 2016-05-12T03:33:56 and the table was updated by user:Artaxerxes a year ago. Comments? Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:03, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Well first, I don't know what in MOS:CAPS makes you think that the first letter in a table entry shouldn't be capitalized. It says "Wikipedia uses sentence case for sentences, article titles, section titles, table headers, image captions, list entries." Also see WP:FLATLIST.
 * Anyway, about the "Type" column: When I saw it, I thought some (if not most) of the entries were/are odd, confusing, and even inaccurate. In my opinion, the types of Christmas songs really come down to: "sacred" (Christian), "traditional", and "contemporary". And actually it would be 4 ways: traditional sacred, contemporary sacred, traditional secular, and contemporary secular. But, having said all that, I don't think such a column is necessary here. Musdan77 (talk) 02:38, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * They're not table headings or complete sentences, so it doesn't need to be capitalized, but the crux of the matter is that the column isn't really needed. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:44, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No, they're not headings or sentences, but are essentially "list entries", just like in an infobox. Did you see WP:FLATLIST (particularly the first row in the table there)? Unless there's something (that I'm not aware of) that says the first letter of the first word shouldn't be capitalized then yes, it should. —Musdan77 (talk) 19:09, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The table in flatlists is also ignoring CAPS. These are not sentences and do not need to be capitalized. But that's a separate issue. We are in agreement that the type column isn't needed. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:20, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * What do you mean, it "ignores" CAPS? Like I asked, where does it say it shouldn't be capitalized? If that's true then we shouldn't in infoboxes either. (And you're the one that brought it up.) --Musdan77 (talk) 19:13, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes. It should not be capitalized because it's not a full sentence and not a heading. It shouldn't be in infoboxes either. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * So, you want to go against what it says in MOS:LIST. --Musdan77 (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No. I want to discuss it elsewhere. I want to remove the final column here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:57, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Lead
Material from lead which did not appear (or was not a summary of anything) in article itself, and which was referenced, has been moved to appropriate sections.--Artaxerxes 14:39, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Consistent language variant
We should be using a consistent language. The article was written primarily in American English, should we settle on that? Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:33, 6 September 2019 (UTC)


 * American English That would be my vote.--Artaxerxes 20:39, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I took your edit summary and made it your opinion. If I'm wrong, feel free to change it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:41, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

See also

Christmas Songs from Australia
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tradimus (talk • contribs) 13:15, 17 September 2019 (UTC)


 * What exactly is this about?
 * Might work in a dedicated page/article for Australian Christmas music.--Artaxerxes (talk) 15:14, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

This is a referenced list of Christmas songs from Australia. I couldn't find an Australian Christmas song page. perhaps it belongs in Christmas music Tradimus (talk) 14:35, 18 September 2019 (UTC) I agree with comment above and list is corrected to chronological order Tradimus (talk) 14:49, 18 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I think the "main page" is over-full now, and I've been recommending breakout pages. Christmas music outside the U.S. might find enough to support a page. Or maybe Anglophone countries outside the U.S. The above would make a fine addition to either page concept.--Artaxerxes (talk) 13:32, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

I have moved the table to another suitable talk page - please delete table and comments 43.230.176.5 (talk) 23:28, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Choirmasters poll
I'm American and I've only heard of one or two of these in this top ten list of carols. Maybe it's UK-biased?--Artaxerxes (talk) 15:05, 4 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm Canadian and I've heard of them all and have recordings of every song listed; some multiple recordings. Not UK-biased; they're choral music not pop music. Where do get your fill of music? Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:20, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * "O Come, All Ye Faithful" is ever-popular in the US, with "In the Bleak Midwinter" seeming to become more popular recently. I'm quite familiar with 21 of 24 of the carols in the Standards list (above this one). I'd be surprised if the list of popular carols in the US would be filled with seemingly unfamiliar titles rather than titles from this standards list. Possibly some shared songs use different titles in the different countries — or are based on the same melodies. --Artaxerxes (talk) 15:41, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * "The 15 Best Christmas Songs" by Shane Ryan | December 16, 2013. is more like a list I'd expect of popular carols in the US.
 * The British Broadcasting Corporation 2008 reference uses "a selection of the world's leading choirmasters and choral experts." How many of these were American? London-based The Telegraph with its article based on the BBC source says nothing about where the surveyed experts come from. I'm unable to open up the actual "50 Greatest Carols" article with the link you've included to see what they might say about where these choirmasters were located when they were surveyed by the BBC. A list generated from British Broadcasting Corporation and The Telegraph sources might seem Uk-biased to an American.--Artaxerxes (talk) 16:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you understand what a choir actually is and what the work of a choirmaster is? The choirmaster's list is song sung by choirs. They are choral works. The Paste list is "religious" (whatever that means). That list was created by two individuals, not by consulting airplay charts or by asking experts. it's an opinion piece. The BBC Magazine list asked "51 directors of music in the UK and US with knowledge of the carol book" so the criteria is clear if you know how to find it. In this context, "carol book" is the a hypothetical list of all choral works that focus on Christmas. The Telegraph piece even states that it includes several "little known carols", so it's not an issue with being UK-specific, but being works specific to (art or classical) choir performances; not your average church choir, gospel choir, and clearly not the choir performances you attend or have in your collection.
 * Finally, I did not add the section, here are the archived links, which are already in the references:
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20170320174325/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3631068/In-the-Bleak-Midwinter-voted-greatest-carol-of-all-time.html
 * http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bbcworldwide/worldwidestories/pressreleases/2008/11_november/in_the_bleak_midwinter.shtml
 * http://www.classical-music.com/issue/december-2008 is a link to the magazine's page for the specific edition. Again, I have copies of all of the listed songs in my Christmas music collection, but then again, I have days worth of Christmas music (and that specific issue of BBC Magazine) in my collection. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:47, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe the results of this poll belong in the page dedicated to the Christmas carol rather than here -- which is more for a general audience. If it stays here it needs an explanation of what exactly it is -- choirmasters not general listeners --otherwise many will assume it's about general popularity.Artaxerxes (talk) 19:12, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * This article is the prefect place for a list of Christmas music since that is the subject of the article. To which article would you suggest it be moved?
 * How would you see the content under the section of "Choirmasters poll" should be modified to make it clear to editors like you? You realize that it already states "that the list is compiled from the views of choral experts and choirmasters in the UK and the US". So at this point I think your argument is so deeply, deeply flawed, but I'm willing to listen to concrete suggestions for improvement and nothing else. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:34, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Not quite sure what the problem is with this addition, except that one editor has never heard of the pieces mentioned. They are prominent pieces in the choral repertoire and are often heard in Christmas services such as Nine Lessons and Carols, and are suitable for inclusion in an article about Christmas music. You'll hear many of these in churches and cathedrals across the US, as well as the UK. There are references in the article which support the article copy. Cnbrb (talk) 16:35, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Popular music
I have adjusted some of the headings in this article to be more genre-specific:


 * Christmas music in the United States → Christmas popular music in the United States
 * Christmas music in the United Kingdom and Ireland → Christmas popular music in the United Kingdom and Ireland
 * Christmas music in Australia → Christmas popular music in Australia

"Christmas music" is simply too generic, and if we are to have separate sections covering classical music and Christmas carols, then it seems reasonable to specify that these sections cover popular music. Other editors may feel that this creates headings that are too long, in which case I suggest grouping them under a "Popular music" heading, thus:


 * Popular Christmas music
 * United States
 * United Kingdom and Ireland
 * Australia
 * Other popular Christmas songs

Cnbrb (talk) 17:55, 8 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I saw that. It's not ideal either because that's what classical or art music call it. It was more commonly used in the 1950s and fell out-of-fashion in the 1970s. I suppose it will do until a better term can be found. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:10, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Well popular music is an existing article here on Wikipedia and a recognised terminology. If there's an alternative term, by all means replace it, but we can't have a broad generic being used to refer to a genre or collections of genres. Cnbrb (talk) 22:33, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Classical
The Classical music section was severely lacking, making the article heavily biased towards hit singles of the last 50 years, so I have added a few prominent Christmas-related pieces. Certain classical works become immensely popular around Christmas and it seemed to be a bizarre omission to leave these out of the article. Cnbrb (talk) 10:43, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you for this. I believe classical Christmas music merits its own page, as with most sections here. I'm hoping the interest and energy is there for creating these more detailed breakout articles (with summary paragraphs on this page).Artaxerxes (talk) 17:46, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks Artaxerxes. Yes, I'm fine with breakaway articles if more detail is to be added - I don't really propose adding more detail here. The Christmas cantatas article does a good job already. There is a bit of overlap between Church feasts and Classical music sections which I will try to rationalise/reduce. My feeling is that a distinction could be made between music usually performed in a religious setting (e.g. cantatas), and music more commonly performed in a concert (e.g. Messiah). I'm partly responsible for introducing some duplication there so I'll try to tidy up as best I can.
 * Arguably there's a lot of detail in other sections that could be spun off into separate articles about hit singles etc, but that's a separate discussion. Cnbrb (talk) 10:15, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe it's all part of the same story. This main page contains much detailed discussion best developed further on other pages. The contemporary/popular music section is my primary candidate for a breakout page (and I hope to take it on some day soon).--Artaxerxes (talk) 14:18, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll leave that in your capable hands.👍 Cnbrb (talk) 14:58, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Is a genre infobox warranted?
An anon has added a genre infobox twice, so I'll ask: should one be used? Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:47, 17 November 2019 (UTC)


 * "should?" - I don't know, but why not? I'd include cantatas and oratorios, though. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:56, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * We might also want to include a summary and link to this article in Christmas by medium. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:26, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It depends if there's much information that can be put in it. Personally, I generally favour infoboxes, but an infobox needs to serve the purpose of offering a useful summary; if it lacks substance, it doesn't deserve to be there. This one looks rather weak. Furthermore, IP editor 86.184.153.8 is risking an edit war by repeatedly adding something that has been removed; he/she should really take it to this talk page and sort it out rationally. Cnbrb (talk) 10:42, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Nutcracker is "all over the globe"
Nutcracker is not just a Christmas piece in the US, it's also in Canada—quite possibly because of their proximity to the other nation—but BBC claims "all over the globe" (see http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20151218-how-tchaikovskys-nutcracker-became-a-christmas-classic). Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:31, 29 November 2019 (UTC)


 * OK. Thanks. I just wanted to check that this non-local aspect had been considered. All the best. Feline Hymnic (talk) 16:19, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Layout issue
Dear Sir/Madam,

I discovered a minor mistake, more in layout than in content.

If you go to the part where it is saying: - Pastorale sur la naissance de N.S. Jésus-Christ (c. 1670) by Marc-Antoine Charpentier; Christus (1847) - an unfinished oratorio by Felix Mendelssohn

Christus (1847) should be on the next line because this is the title of the unfinished oratorio by Felix Mendelssohn

Kiond regards, Henk Besselsen 2/1/2020185.61.72.113 (talk) 08:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It now reads
 * Pastorale sur la naissance de N.S. Jésus-Christ (c. 1670) by Marc-Antoine Charpentier
 * Christus (1847) an unfinished oratorio by Felix Mendelssohn
 * The problem was created . Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:41, 2 January 2020 (UTC)