Talk:Christopher Tolkien/Archive 1

Birth date
I picked up the November 21 date from http://www.tolkienworld.de/zwkriege.html, and it's also cited on other sites (not any English ones, curiously), dunno if that makes it more or less authoritative than the February date in imdb. I don't have Tolkien's bio though, sigh, perhaps it's mentioned in there. Maybe Christopher has a email address... Stan 04:10 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

According to IMDb, he's changed his name and is in hiding because the Tolkien fans wouldn't leave him alone. -- Zoe


 * IMDb is wrong, having picked up 'facts' from the British press, which seems to write almost nothing but fabrications about CRT. I have it directly from CRT himself that he does not and has never used an assumed name.Solicitr 13:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * the tolkien bio by humphrey carpenter has CJRT's birthdate as November 1924. -- Esk 01:38, 2004 Apr 14 (UTC)


 * Hammond & Scull's Chronology confirms CRT's birthdate as 21 November 1924.Solicitr 13:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

According to an interview with Simon Tolkien (http://www.simontolkien.com) his father was 77 in 2003. This would make his birthdate sometime in 1926. Also CRTs first wife was named Faith and they divorced in 1964 when Simon was 5. CRT moved to southern France post JRRTs death and married his second wife in 1972???


 * No, Christopher married Baillie Klass in 1967 (ref. Hammond & Scull, The JRRT Tolkien Companion and Guide)Solicitr 13:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

One thing that has struck me is that Tolkien (jr) is here referred to as "Christopher." Would it not be more encyclopaedic to use some other name, such as "Tolkien," despite the risk of confusing him with his father? It sounds like calling Shakespeare for "William."Hinakana 17:48, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Either say "Tolkien" if the context makes clear which Tolkien you are referring to, or, if there is a possibility of confusion, say "Christopher Tolkien" for the son and "J. R. R. Tolkien" for the father. You are correct that "Christopher" and "Ronald" would be too informal for an encyclopedia article. Carcharoth 12:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Does the horizontal scroll bar at the bottom of the family tree serve any purpose? It does not appear to, and should probably be removed.

Opposition to movies
How could, as the article claims, Christopher Tolkien be opposed to the making of movies based on Lord of the Rings? The first movie based on Lord of the Rings was made in 1978, just five years after JRR's death. Surely Christopher had some control over the rights at the time. --207.161.18.54 03:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

-- CRT had no control whatsoever. JRR Tolkien sold the film rights to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings in 1969: his heirs have no control over them, and get no money either.

---Okay, maybe they do get money (in theory).Solicitr (talk) 02:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It's interesting. Especially with the lawsuit. I had suspected there was always some money involved. Carcharoth (talk) 01:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * according to most of the public information online the lawsuits deal with the non-film merchandising (toys, video games, etc. that use the IP )2600:1700:DEA0:EE80:BCB4:3A3B:2325:3F8C (talk) 03:30, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Date of Children of Hurin
This needs to be corrected: the press, sloppy as ever, garbled the fact that JRRT wrote the *earliest version* of the Turin-story in 1918 or 19. The texts from which The Children of Hurin was assembled date from ca. 1951-57.
 * No, it doesn't. Tolkien actually wrote Turambar and the Foalókë around 1918, see The Book of Lost Tales. In 1951 he began writing an expanded version, from which CoH is mainly derived. Súrendil 18:49, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As currently phrased, it's very misleading. "Based on notes" implies some sort of Brian Herbert job, when in fact CoH was made up from more-or-less complete narrative texts sutured together. And "based on" notes "1918-59" is simply wrong, since not one jot nor tittle of Turambar and the Foaloke was used in assembling the 2007 text: it's simply an antecedent. Nor is it correct tha CRT spent "30 years" on it (the Fourth Estate at work again, garbling the statement that CRT has spent over 30 years editing his father's papers). He didn't start work on CoH until 2004 at the earliest.


 * I would propose "In April 2007 Christopher published a "new" book by his father, The Children of Hurin, which Tolkien had written between 1951-57 and brought to a relatively completed stage before he abandoned it. The story of Turin Turambar is one of the oldest elements in the legendarium, its earliest version dating back to 1918." Solicitr 17:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and made the edit, daring incoming brickbats Solicitr 13:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Grandchildren
New family information: Adam has a son Dimitri, born 2005, and Rachel has a son Samuel, born 2006.71.176.233.43 20:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Wife and religion
Anybody know if he is Catholic? and the name of his first wife and what happend to her? Why isn't that in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.90.216.106 (talk) 19:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I was at New College, Oxford in the sixties, and he was then a very lapsed RC. If anything he was "anti-catholic". Figeac (talk) 18:17, 1 October 2012 (UTC)


 * CRT first married Faith Faulconbridge (1928- ). She is a sculptor, especially on Christian and Catholic themes. The couple separated ca. 1964; their marriage was "dissolved" 1967. I don't know if that refers to civil divorce or Church annulment.Solicitr 17:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Didn't she do the bust of Tolkien (senior) that is in the Bodleian Library? Carcharoth (talk) 01:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Solicitr (talk • contribs) 00:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Middle name "John"
I suggest that it should be removed from the lead; the last sentence of para. 1 explains it adequately, and it is indeed the fact that CT does not use it. A quick look at his copyright pages and legal documents shows that he consistently goes by "Christopher Reuel Tolkien" or "Christopher R. Tolkien."Solicitr 12:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Silmarillion
There's a "citation needed" tag after this sentence: The Silmarillion was edited by Christopher Tolkien, who had to make some difficult editorial decisions when deciding how to present the material, and both Christopher Tolkien himself, and others have criticised some of these decisions.

Here's a quotation from the 11. volume of The History of Middle-Earth that seems to prove that Christopher has criticised at least one of those decisions: It seemed at that time [ie, when he was editing The Silmarillion] ''that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with ‘The Silmarillion’ as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.'' I'm not sure if it's suitable for the "citation needed", and I don't know how to put it there, so I hope someone else can do so if it's indeed suitable.
 * The History of Middle-Earth was compiled and edited by Christopher Tolkien, so it is too close to the subject to answer any questions about it. If someone has done a study of C. Tolkien's work in comparison to his father's notes, that would be most helpful; I'm unaware of such a study.


 * It's a statement from Christopher Tolkien himself criticizing his own work, and as such adequately backs up the statement that he was indeed critical of what he had previously done in regard to The Silmarillion. It exactly fits the bill as a reference for that point. The point that his work has been criticized by others, naturally, needs a separate reference. BPK (talk) 16:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * " If someone has done a study of C. Tolkien's work in comparison to his father's notes, that would be most helpful; I'm unaware of such a study." There is [ http://www.amazon.com/Arda-Reconstructed-Creation-Published-Silmarillion/dp/0980149630| Arda Reconstructed], an attempted brick-by-brick comparison of the 1977 Silmarillion to the (published versions of) the source texts, to the extent possible.  While I disagree with many of Doug Kane's opinions there expressed, it does provide a handbook to the 'construction' of Sil77.  (BTW, "notes" is completely inaccurate.  The problem was largely that Tolkien pere wrote way, way too much material, most of it contradicting earlier versions.) Solicitr (talk) 23:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Sources needed
Are there any verifiable and reliable sources that demonstrate that Tolkien is in fact editing his father's notes rather than writing stories himself? There's a lot of uncited assumptions in that regard.--otherlleft 13:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You're kidding, right? You mean, besides the 12 volumes of the History of Middle-earth (complete with facsimiles of manuscript pages?) Besides the fact that the originals can be seen in the Bodleian or at Marquette?  How about his letters to me going back 35 years discussing his progress?  Sheesh. Solicitr (talk) 23:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

JRR Tolkien's son
I propose that the article be renamed "J.R.R. Tolkien's son", since Christopher was only notable for being his son and would not have been notable otherwise.


 * Restored content the anonymous poster of the above deleted while posting it. But to respond to the renaming suggestion, no. The idea is ridiculous. BPK (talk) 03:34, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Uncertain date of death
According to the reference in the lead paragraph, Tolkien died overnight in hospital, hence the uncertainty of whether it was on 15 January or 16 January. We'll need to wait until an obituary is published or the original French source provides an update to resolve the uncertainty.174.85.100.143 (talk) 19:47, 16 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I have corrected 15 in 16 but my correction was undone. Let's reconsider the issue tomorrow. VF, 19/1/2020. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VincentMFerre (talk • contribs) 15:04, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Apparently, according to this, "He is believed to have died in his sleep some time between Wednesday night and Thursday morning.". This may explain some of the uncertainty. Carcharoth (talk) 13:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

And: Le Monde says "dans la nuit de mercredi 15 à jeudi 16 janvier". Carcharoth (talk) 13:14, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

I rephrase it, if I am I not clear enough : Please take into account the family statement in le Monde : the Tolkien family has written "16/1/2020" not "15/1" https://journal.lemonde.fr/data/728/reader/reader.html?t=1579526394513#!preferred/0/package/728/pub/1036/page/24

--VincentMFerre (talk) 14:18, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you give the title of the Le Monde article, or the citation details (author, date) as it seems to require a subscription. Thank you. Carcharoth (talk) 13:26, 20 January 2020 (UTC)


 * The obituary is a different article, and it's not locked: "Christopher, troisième fils de Tolkien, est mort" 17 Jan 2020 https://www.lemonde.fr/culture/article/2020/01/17/christopher-le-fils-aine-de-tolkien-est-mort_6026147_3246.html. The byline is just "Le Monde avec AFP". Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:11, 20 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Here is a screen grab of the family's notice in Le Monde. Deagol2 (talk) 17:55, 20 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Damn and I made the RFPP because IP's were changing it to th 16th :P -  FlightTime Phone  ( open channel ) 17:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, they weren't exactly adding reliable sources with the information ... Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:47, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

ISBN numbers?
Hi all,

I'd be glad to help with filling them in, yet I am puzzled about why this seems to be a problem. Apart from Christopher Tolkien's early academic publications all the numbers are most easily available at tolkien.co.uk, the official publisher of Tolkien in the UK. So I thought I'd better ask first ... Thanks for clarifying.

Patrick M. Hausen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:A:D59:3800:A565:2BC2:E7E1:83EE (talk) 18:14, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Obituaries and tributes
Listing obituaries and tributes here (some already in the article), as enough time has now passed for most of these to be published (though some may come later, e.g. I suspect some memorial volumes may be in the offing, or maybe retrospectives in something like Tolkien Studies): There are also opinion pieces and non-news sources and some blogs (: And in passing, The Conservative Stewardship of Christopher Tolkien which led me to the earlier (November 2018) The Steward of Middle-earth. Strangely, there is nothing official on the website of The Tolkien Estate (but that website looks like it is not really maintained properly). Two final points, one from the Bodleian Libraries states: "Bodleian Library Publishing has been in the process of publishing a volume of essays to be presented as a Festschrift for Christopher Tolkien. This will now be published as a memorial volume to appear in 2020." And on a final note, the tribute from The J.R.R. Tolkien Lecture on Fantasy Literature site quoted this from an Old Norse poem: Sonr er betri, þótt sé síð of alinn, eptir genginn guma; sjaldan bautarsteinar standa brautu nær, nema reisi niðr at nið.
 * 'First Middle-earth scholar' Christopher Tolkien dies (BBC News)
 * Christopher, troisième fils de Tolkien, est mort (Le Monde)
 * Christopher, le fils de J.R.R. Tolkien, s'est éteint dans le Var à l'âge de 95 ans (Var-Matin)
 * JRR Tolkien's son Christopher dies aged 95 (The Guardian)
 * Christopher Tolkien ... obituary (The Telegraph)
 * Christopher Tolkien, Son of J.R.R. Tolkien and ‘First Scholar’ of Middle-Earth, Dies at 95 (Smithsonian Magazine)
 * Christopher Tolkien obituary (The Times)
 * Christopher Tolkien, Keeper of His Father’s Legacy, Dies at 95 (New York Times)
 * Christopher Tolkien, Son of Lord of the Rings Creator, Dies at 95 (TIME magazine)
 * Christopher Tolkien death: Son of Lord of the Rings author JRR Tolkien dies aged 95 (The Independent)
 * Obituary: Christopher Tolkien (Oxford Mail)
 * Christopher Tolkien, 'Middle-earth's First Scholar,' Dies At 95 (NPR)
 * Christopher Tolkien, who protected the legacy of his father, J.R.R. Tolkien, dies at 95 (Washington Post)
 * Christopher Tolkien dies, aged 95 (The Bookseller)
 * Christopher Tolkien dies aged 95 as tributes for JRR Tolkien's son pour in (Birmingham Mail)
 * Christopher Tolkien Was The Unsung Hero Of Middle Earth (The Federalist)
 * COMMENT FROM HARPERCOLLINS UK ON THE DEATH OF CHRISTOPHER TOLKIEN, EDITOR, AUTHOR AND SON OF J.R.R. TOLKIEN (HarperCollins)
 * The passing of a truly great scholar - Christopher Tolkien (Bodleian Libraries)
 * Christopher Tolkien passes away (Medievalists.net)
 * Christopher Tolkien, 1924–2020 (The J.R.R. Tolkien Lecture on Fantasy Literature)

‘A son is better, though he be born late, after his father has passed; seldom do memorial-stones stand near the road, unless one kinsman raises them for another.’

—Hávamál, stanza 72

Carcharoth (talk) 14:20, 4 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Worth noting here: tribute, plus some photos (maybe someone could try and get a freely licensed copy?). Also: "The February issue of the Tolkien magazine "Beyond Bree" will be dedicated to Christopher Tolkien." Carcharoth (talk) 12:43, 13 February 2020 (UTC)


 * What happened to WP:NOTMEMORIAL ? -  FlightTime Phone  ( open channel ) 12:49, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I am trying to find sources to use in the article. If you think the above crosses a line (and I can see why you would get that impression), please suggest what to do (remove it? be more precise about whether each source can be used in the article or not?). The bit about the plans to publish a memorial volume is useful for future editing of the article. Carcharoth (talk) 13:08, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Nationality
Did Christopher become a French citizen?Halbared (talk) 18:20, 8 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi . Personally I don't know. I'd recommend asking on other websites related to Tolkien’s works such as Tolkien Gateway, The Tolkien Society, or The Official J. R. R. Tolkien Book Shop. Someone on one of those websites will probably stand a good chance of knowing. Of course, if we are to state anything on this page a reliable third-party source would need to be provided for whatever claim is given, but perhaps someone on one of those websites can provide a source for such a matter. All the best, Helper201 (talk) 15:51, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks I found a good ref in the NYTimes and added it to the article. :). Halbared (talk) 19:07, 9 March 2021 (UTC)