Talk:Chrono Trigger/Archive 2

IMPORTANT NOTICE:
When adding content to the article, please do not use the second person (ie "you") unless stating a quotation. Having the second person means we'll never be featured. I've had to go around editing these out. Please help by not using second person. Thank you. Crazyswordsman 06:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

New Peer Review?
The last blight on the article is the "rarity / price" section. Once the study concludes on the 25th (see that section in this talk page for details), it'll be ready. Can we then submit it for peer review? --Zeality 19:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Premature nomination?
I honestly don't think its quite there yet. It should be by the end of the week. Crazyswordsman 22:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Seeing how there are still articles from April 21 to check in the list, I believe this article may not be reviewed in a couple of weekis. -- ReyBrujo 22:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's plenty of time to get it up to snuff. Crazyswordsman 22:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't worry about it guys, it will be a bit before it gets reviewed, and it has already improved so much....

Here are some thoughs I had about improvement, let me know what you think:


 * Totally rewrite plot section
 * clarify chrono's death
 * incorporate the chrono trigger into the plot
 * elaborate on the different endings if you beat it the second go around
 * merge character and time period sections into main plot like Final Fantasy X
 * Copyedit to make tone more formal and make accessible to non-gamers.
 * expand reception section
 * fill in statements that need references
 * look for primary sources for the article.

Thoughts? Good, bad, add something? Judgesurreal777 06:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Moved everything up to a to do box, add anything you think necessary to make this an awesome article! Judgesurreal777 20:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Curious; should we add anymore images, or is the current amount fine? Can you spot anything that would be clarified by a helpful image? --Zeality 01:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I think I can clarify his death, when he is killed by Lavos he does not actually die. Because when you get the egg from the Guru you have to go make a clone of him. So when you go and stop time and take him out, you exchange it with him with his clone. So you actually see a clone of him dieing and not Crono himself. - Mystik. 9:55 AM, November 21 2006
 * If Crono didn't really die, then they wouldn't need the clone. In the original time space, Crono dies.  The purpose for the egg is to go back in time and substitute the clone for Crono.  It is only in the revised time space that Crono doesn't die. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 15:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

GA review
I removed this from the good articles nominations list because the one person review system there is designed for short articles - this one is 42kb long. Peer review and/or FAC will be more productive for an article of this length. Worldtraveller 21:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ummmm, I would take a look at the articles that have just been awarded GA status, such as Israel at 67kb. I also believe that the Good article designation helps short articles, but it not reserved exclusively for them. I suggest that we get a concensus to get GA status and then do a peer review, more improvement, then a FA candidacy. Judgesurreal777 22:23, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I read your comments on the GA place, and I may agree with you afterall....but, I think we should proceed with a Peer review soon :) I know it needs references, but otherwise it's looking far better than it did Judgesurreal777 23:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * So, in other words, this will go to FA without passing through GA? That doesn't make any sense. Crazyswordsman 01:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If people disagree with this step, feel free to renominate it, as it seems that far larger articles have gone through the process, and it seems that Worldtravellers view is just a view not a policy at this time.Judgesurreal777 03:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My original plan was to get this through a Peer Review before submitting it anyway. Crazyswordsman 03:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Articles can go to FA without passing through GA. I suggest working some more and then submitting directly to FA. -- ReyBrujo 03:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

B-Class
Are you sure it is B-Class? It may not be A, but I'd at least call it a Good Article at the moment. It's not lacking any information, and the article flows from a proper exposition to lesser details. This article doesn't really need substantial copyediting or lacks big gaps in the prose, and it's not biased towards anything. I guess if there really is no other classification, B could fit, but I think Chrono Trigger is a good, well referenced article. (Here come cries of favoritism!) --Zeality 19:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What he said. --Kizor 10:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Table of Contents
Is there a way to limit the depth of the table of contents? What is a reasonable size of the TOC? wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 11:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Table of contents has been shortened by eliminating Time Period / Character headers and the development header. --Zeality 19:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

According to the heading markup guidelines, you need to use === instead of '''. If you really want to keep those headings out of the TOC, begin with ; instead of , in example, ; 12,000 B.C (Dark ages) insted of  12,000 B.C (Dark ages)' ''. -- ReyBrujo 06:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Fixed. --Zeality 19:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Text polishing
Just FYI, in hopes of getting this article in shape for GA status and another peer review, I took a big step and broke up the time period and character stuff to begin slowely dividing it up between a much shorter, chronological plot section and a character section that explains the origins of the characters in the development section, like the Final Fantasy X article. Thanks! Judgesurreal777 19:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Although it is good, it is a HUGE block of information. Please divide that in paragraphs to make it visually attractive. -- ReyBrujo 20:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Done Crazyswordsman 22:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Wonderful. We should do this for Chrono Cross sometime. I'll try to make any positive contributions to all the Chrono articles linked from Trigger at the moment to help out. --Zeality 06:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I've completed polishing the text; I made some sentences more concise and poignant, and cleaned up verbosity. Any other contributions are appreciated. --Zeality 19:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Too short criticism
I'm starting a poll at the Compendium asking fans what they perceive to be Chrono Trigger's "real flaw." Perhaps we can cite it in a couple days. --Zeality 19:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Prism Cards
I've finished mine, and right now the most troublesome paragraph seems to be "Super Famicom/Super Nintendo version." I can't remember who referenced the "auction guide" mentioned in that section, and it will be similarly hard to find some kind of citation for what's happening at Ebay.com. --Zeality 20:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I cant provide a citable source at this time, but I can tell you that I own 3 of the famicom collector cards, the Magus battle, the "snow battle" and a character portrait of Ayly (Eira). I have seen, in person, the epoch scene and several other character portraits.  I am confirming the existence of these cards, as I already had once.  Hopefully this can ease the requisite for citation.  I should be able to provide photos of the cards I have, but not until after May 19th.  In the meantime I will keep looking for citeable references to the cards.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 01:49, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh! I think I remember the cards...these suckers? --Zeality 04:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC) I'll add the reference.


 * Indeed, thank you. I will be able to provide a GFL photo of my own creation of one of the cards after the 19th.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 05:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Is Chrono Trigger a rare game?
The second source needing citation is down from the internet. However, I found two sources NOT in WP:RS that confirm this (aka message boards) using Google. They have links to the original article, which has been taken down. For the other two citations, just link to eBay auctions (not WP:RS, but primary sources). For the Europe one I don't know. Let's see if we can ask some European gamers this. Crazyswordsman 06:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ebay auctions don't stay up for long after they are completed. While it is ok to keep a reference to a web article that is taken down, it would be somewhat irrisponsible in my opinion to reference a known temporary article.  It may be more appropriate for someone to create a semi-permanent (thats the best it'll ever get on the web) mirror of one of these ebay auctions and cite that (assuming it does not violate copyright of course)-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 06:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * We could keep track of Ebay auctions to gauge a price, but determining if it is rare in relation to other SNES games is impossible without a real reference guide. --Zeality 05:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * According to EverythingAndNothing, 2.31m units were sold. It may be rare in America and Europe, where it sold only 200k and 80k respectively, but not in Japan, where it sold over 2m. So, I am one of those 200k guys then :-) -- ReyBrujo 06:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to bookmark all the current CT auctions and see how they end up. I'll classify them according quality (cartridge versus shrinkwrapped game at extremes). I'll post the results at the Compendium. It smells of original research, but it will be accurate and up to date, at least. --Zeality 01:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

~

Okay, here's the link to the study; you can watch it progress. I already wrote the conclusion, since I expect these trends to continue. We'll edit the article once it's done. With that wrapped up, I think we'll have this thing 95% finished until new items come to light (whether by suggestions before nominating FA or the reasons for failing after the fact). Rarity, Price Study --Zeality 01:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The price study is concluded; all those references are taken care of. Tomorrow, I'm tallying the "What is CT's worst flaw" votes and posting them at this page, which will give us the "too short" reference. Then it's nomination for peer review. --Zeality 22:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Version tables
Are the tables in the Different versions section really necessary? There are only two of them, they are very small, and they contain the exact same information (Square, Japan, 1995). A simple image caption should suffice, should it not? ~ Hibana 22:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Playstation reference
There is probably an article somewhere regarding this. Crazyswordsman 06:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

How much time DOES it take to max stats?
I'm sure it varies from gamer to gamer. Links to several reviews may be helpful. Crazyswordsman 06:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I strongly doubt any encyclopedic inclusion will be nearly impossible any way, but from personal experience, maybe 100 hours or so if you're just curious.-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 05:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If you find a good, easy battle that gives you lots of experience and do it over and over again (like i did), it'll take 60-70 hours. Peaceman 00:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This seems to be moot now that it has been removed. --Zeality 19:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Rom Hacks
Is the "Rom Hacks" section necessary? Although Chrono Trigger is a popular game to hack, I think that the section doesn't really add anything to the article, and could be put under "Unofficial Releases" or simply cut altogether. Opinions? Brown Bomber 21:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea, I think just put under unofficial releases header, otherwise in Featured Article Candidacy they will object to one paragraph sections. Judgesurreal777 22:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed. --Zeality 01:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Xenogears
Is it true about Xenogears being originally conceived as a sequel? It doesn't fit to me. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 07:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, when/where does Lucca make a cameo appearance? This whole section seems out of place in an article for Chrono Trigger.  wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 13:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Lucca picture I can't substantiate the CT II claim, though I remember hearing about it before...In any case, Masato Kato said he was not the main story writer for Xenogears in the GamePro interview, which sort of discounts that idea. --Zeality 16:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That just seems more like an easter egg treat for CT fans. Samus' cameo in Super Mario RPG doesn't mean its a Metroid game. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 22:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

So if no supporting evidence is cited later today I'll remove the section and propose Category:Chrono and Xeno games for deletion. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 22:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's been deleted. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 06:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

(I've been asleep until now.) Sorry, my bad. This is something I had "known" for years. I was surprised when it was actually challenged now as it was. So, certain I could find the reference again, I Googled for the information. And...it turns out that it was a widely-circulated urban legend around Xenogears 's release which was contradicted in interview. So, go ahead, remove the section, delete the category. However, it is still notable that Xenogears shares much of the same development staff and some of the same game engine and story elements of Chrono Trigger, and was still widely considered as its spiritual successor. - Gilgamesh 09:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Just like Secret of Mana is a spiritual succesor to Final Fantasy. But that doesn't mean they are. Same company, similar ideas, same elements. --Guille2015 21:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This is frustrating. I also clearly remember one of the Xenogears creators mentioning somewhere that the project initially began with the intention of being a Chrono Trigger sequel, but quickly went into a new direction... but that was many years ago and today of course I can't find the original source of the comment either. It's true, we just need to find a valid source. Still, I don't see why people find it so hard to believe.


 * "And...it turns out that it was a widely-circulated urban legend around Xenogears 's release which was contradicted in interview. "


 * It was stated outright by one of the heads of the project; I can't recall if it was Takahashi or Hiromichi Tanaka, but I think it was one of the two. Druff 19:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If you can find the source then, feel free to post it. But without a source, its never going to pass FAC. BTW I can believe it, and im pretty sure that is the case, but then again, without a source it is out of our hands.--Guille2015 22:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As I said, the only thing stopping me from altering the article is that I can't find the source now. When I find it, of course I'll post it. Druff 22:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Chrono Trigger Endings
I am the author of "List of Chrono Trigger Endings", which was originally written for the SNES version, and was updated for PS. The reference is to the original HTML page, and a text version of it can be found in gamefaqs, so I assume it would be considered a reliable source, and could be considered primary for its age, if nothing else. Since I am on the faculty, the site has been there for over 10 years, and should continue to be there for some time. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 10:36, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Compendium
What needs to be demonstrated for the site to be accepted as a reliable source? I understand that it may never be so by basis of being a fan site, but aside from the Theory section, the information there either comes from the scripts of the games, game data itself, or interviews / published documents. --Zeality 01:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be much preferable if we could cite the information directly from the developers mouths, such as an interview, than a listing at the compendium, because then we know it's true, it came from the developer directly to us, as opposed to through someone whose reliability is entirely unknown. For example, where the developers words are listed at the bottom I think is perfect, there's no arguing that what is stated is a fact. Judgesurreal777 19:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Once I get done polishing the text, I'm going to go through the references and cite actual words whereever possible. --Zeality 01:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is a bit long.
I think the characters section could be given its own page, List of Chrono Trigger characters, mainly to take detail out of the main article. If we want this to be featured, we need to stick to a general overview on this article, and other pages could go more in-depth. This is similar to the way Final Fantasy VI does it. Crazyswordsman 16:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. I say a bulk of the character information be moved to said article and a concise paragraph about all the main characters be made in its place in the main article. All the minor characters that were deleted from the main article (Toma, Spekkio, etc.) could also be added to the new article. Perhaps similar action could be taken for the time periods (List of Chrono Trigger time periods ?). ~ Hibana 16:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Chrono Cross looks great after segmenting in that manner, and it'll also give a page where extra information can be filled in about NPCs. I'll add it to the new peer review to do list. --Zeality 20:28, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, Chrono Cross was handled with a Chrono Cross Plot page, wherein timelines and the basic storyline could be found. I'm going to make a Chrono Trigger Plot page and link it to the template; I can place a larger summary and the time periods there. --Zeality 20:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review came in
I'm going to update the to-do list with our pending tasks and cross them off as I go along. Time to make a major effort! --Zeality 20:28, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair Use Rationale
Most of the images are properly placed, but the two problem children are http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/33/Chrono_Trigger_Title_Screen.png/256px-Chrono_Trigger_Title_Screen.png and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chrono_Trigger_logo.gif. They really don't illustrate or illuminate anything in the accompanying text, and having the logo is redundant since it is featured in the title screen. What should we do with these? --Zeality 21:37, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and removed them. --Zeality 02:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Progress Report
Okay, here's an update. Text has been polished across the entire article, shooting for brevity and ease of reading. Weasel words and lengthy paranthetical commentary have been eliminated. The gameplay section has been edited to make it more accessible to non-gamers. I also added some references from Nintendo Power's review to substantiate the claims of innovation. The story section has been heavily edited; a new plot summary is up, and a main plot summary as well as the list of time periods have been removed to their own article. The character section received the same treatment; two summarizing paragraphs replace the former list. The section on the beta version has been shortened to one paragraph, as has the section on unofficial versions. Needed references were added to the potential future sequels section, and only 10 of 48 references come from the Chrono Compendium now. I've contacted a couple English majors and a competent writer who will polish the prose (if they get around to it). Make any changes you see fit! --Zeality 02:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Chrono Trigger OVA
I noticed that there was no mention of the Chrono Trigger OVA in the article. I recently watched it here on YouTube. Should it be included to fill out the information on the Sequels section, in the midst of the feature drive, or should it wait? ~ Hibana 22:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, wow, totally forgot about that. I'm going to dig up some source information and add it later, unless I get beaten to it. Peer review seems to have died down, which may be a good sign. --Zeality 22:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Images
I feel like the article needs a few more images. It feels somewhat bare to me now that the title screen is gone (not that it contributed to much). It only has 6 images counting the boxart. Maybe we should include one appropriate selection in the Story section and one in the Characters section. Thoughts? ~ Hibana 22:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. I'm about to go on vacation for a while. Good luck maintaining the article; it's on the road to featured. Hopefully when I get back, we can submit Chrono Cross for peer review and get it rocking too. I just filled in the last 'citation-needed', so it is now a solid, sourced article. --Zeality 22:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Just don't go overboard with the images, okay? Also, make sure the text doesn't get screwed up too much by the images.  I'll see what I can do about it. Crazyswordsman 17:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Greetings from the mountains. Everything looks great! How far off do you think we are? This is Zeality. --216.184.29.154 20:20, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't know. I'm not much of a prose writer. Crazyswordsman 22:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the Spoiler tag
I removed it per discussion on the matter at Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Computer and video games. Final Fantasy X, a Featured article, does not have it, either. I figure removing the tag will help us in our efforts as well. Please don't readd it without discussing it here first. Crazyswordsman 21:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's Move
Peer review is done and stagnated, and the article is sitting pretty without major revisions. It's stable, and covers everything. I've examined the criteria for featured status, and they all seem to conform. The text may not be subjectively brilliant, but it is competent writing and is encyclopedic in nature, lacking POV or weasel words. I'm nominating FA. Any remaining impurities will be burnt out by objections and our fixing them. Here we go. --Zeality 06:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Still a bit of work to be done, I'll take a look at reworking it. Crazyswordsman 16:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I was a little apprehensive at first, but jeez, we can't hide forever. The FA nomination is just the kick in the pants we need. I'm in the process of a copyedit. --Zeality 17:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've helped a bit, too. Also, fix up the references.  Make them look like Retrieved on 3 July [2006]].  And I WILL submit this to GA if it doesn't make FA.  Crazyswordsman 17:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * My body will be beaten and broken before we fail this nomination! Thanks for the support. Radical Dreamers is in the pipeline for GA status, and after this, it's Chrono Cross time. Oh, small note. I'll post it in my new section.
 * Mind if I join the Chrono Compendium (your site)? It looks great, and maybe we can discuss this a bit more there. Crazyswordsman 18:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure, it's completely open. I'll start a thread in Chrono / Gameplay inviting others to review the article. We're gearing up for the CT retranslation right now. I wonder if the Crimson Echoes rom hack will be important enough to warrant its own Wiki article in 2007...--Zeality 18:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Ironing things out (post issues here)

 * COMPOSER THE - Do we really need that "the" before the composer? Tony's points were valid, but I have a bone to pick with that one. None of the other person descriptions need it, and the fact that Uematsu only did some of the games' soundtracks is clarified by the "several" adjective later in the sentence. --Zeality 17:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * DREAM TEAM - They're officially called the Dream Team in the game. I will add a citation from the game's script to nail this in.


 * IMHO, the story section is still too long. I think it has way too much detail.  There is a reference to the main article, so this could be a brief summary.  Anyone else think this?  wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 03:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's supposed to be comprehensive, so it's going to have to touch on all the main story arcs and their resolutions. Concerns over length are second to meeting this other criteria. Ryu Kaze 12:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The referenced main article is supposed to be comprehensive. The story section on this page can be fairly complete, but doesn't need all the details.  (For example, whether Magus is defeated or joins the group.)  One of the goals for this set of edits was to make it a featured article.  If it is too long, then it could be disqualified as a featured article. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 12:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no such thing as too long when you're trying to be comprehensive. There's no "one size fits all" standard for length, as not all plots are the same length. A plot section is supposed to be as long as it needs to be in order to touch on all major story arcs, their developments, and their resolutions. Ryu Kaze 02:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Moreover, a featured article must be comprehensive in its own right. &mdash; Deckill e r 03:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Concerning Magus' part in the story section
wrp103 (Bill Pringle) and I have been having a dispute concerning Magus' role in the story. He feels that we should write the article to mention that the player is given the option of fighting him or having him join the group and leave it at that, while I feel that we should say that he joins the group, and then mention that he goes to search for Schala in the ending.

I'll let him present the reasoning for his own stance and go ahead with presenting the reasoning for my own:

The article's information is supposed to be correct about the reality of the story. Given what we're shown in both Radical Dreamers and Chrono Cross (the only two realities we've seen based after Chrono Trigger), we know that Magus survived Chrono Trigger. Furthermore, in Chrono Cross we know that Lucca knows he went looking for Schala (I'm referring to her letter to Kid), and in Radical Dreamers we see the results of his search for Schala. This is relevant because in one of the endings to Chrono Trigger, Lucca attempts to discuss Magus' plans to search for Schala before he leaves. This only happens if he didn't die and he joined the group.

To summarize things thus far, this is canon: Magus survived (whether you look to RD or CC), he went searching for Schala and Lucca knows he went looking for her. Obviously in order for any of this to have happened, Magus had to survive Chrono Trigger. Furthermore, he had to have let the others know he was going to search for Schala. This only happens if he survives and joins the group (meaning he isn't fought at the cape in 12000 B.C.).

Bill has been arguing that he could have still been fought and yet survived. However, I feel that this contradicts the way the scene was presented. Magus goes down if fought, he chokes out some words he barely gets to speak, and then his [obviously] dead body vanishes, and we can take a personal trinket that had belonged to him. Furthermore, Frog will turn back into Glenn later as a result of this battle. Bill suggests that there isn't sufficient indication that Magus died in this scenario, despite the directing/writing of that scene, the fact that Magus is never heard from again from there on out, and despite the fact that the curse on Frog gets broken.

He's also suggested that Lucca only knows about him going to search for Schala if he joins the group. I've pointed out to him that it isn't a question of "if", because -- as Chrono Cross shows us -- she knew. In order for her to know, he had to survive, in which case he joined the group. It's our responsibility to be putting forth the reality of the story here. There are some cases where there are optional events never elaborated upon (like whether or not Lucca saved her mom from that accident in 990 A.D.), but with Magus, things are made clear in black and white: Magus survived, he went searching for Scahala and Lucca knows about it. In order for this to be the case, he must have joined the group, because the only two possibilities are that he joins the group and lives or he doesn't and dies. And it's not our place to go about speculating about alternate scenarios not presented by the game. Going solely by what's been given to us by the Chrono series' creators, we know that Magus must have joined the group.

Now, with all that out of the way, for my reasoning for mentioning that he goes off to search for Schala in the ending, we're supposed to be comprehensive, so this means we're going to touch on all the major story arcs and their resolutions, and someone who reads the Chrono Trigger page should then be able to go read the Radical Dreamers or Chrono Cross page, both of which feature continuing plot developments from Trigger. Just as someone reading the Final Fantasy X article should then be able to go read the Final Fantasy X-2 article, someone should be able to read this one and go read the articles for either of its sequels. Especially in Radical Dreamer ' s case, this is important, as that game's entire purpose was to serve as the resolution of the missing Schala plot thread. Any article about a subject with a sequel should strive to make reading the article about the sequel accessible, so I believe we should mention the resolution of this plot element -- at least as far as it is developed in Chrono Trigger. Thoughts anyone? Ryu Kaze 03:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * My approach to the story section is slightly different. I believe that the emphasis should be on what the player will experience when playing the game.  For that reason, I believe that it should be stated that the player has the choice of letting Magus join or fighting him.
 * As for whether Magus dies or is simply defeated, if anything, the scene suggests to me that Magus doesn't die. Very few people who are actually killed are able to make their body disappear.  Besides, in an RPG, almost nobody really dies. ;^)  It is clear that whether you fight or recruit Magus affects some endings, so I don't think there is one true storyline that we can appeal to; we should report on what the player will see.  It makes perfect sense to add a footnote that in one or more sequels, certain characters are mentioned, when discussing alternate plot developments.
 * I would like, however, to repeat what I said earlier &mdash; I think the story section is too long and has too much detail. We cite a main article reference at the beginning of the section.  It seem to me that is where all the detail should go, and thus where this discussion should probably be held.  One of the comments made when we first started this drive to become a featured article is that it was too long.  I think the summary can still cover the major story arcs, but doesn't have to include as much detail. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 03:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Concerning the length, I'd like to reiterate what Deckiller said above: a featured article should strive to be comprehensive on its own. If there's another place with more details on a specific section, that's fine and it should be given the "main article" link, but this article itself should strive to be comprehensive.


 * For that matter, Raul (the guy who chooses Featured Articles) has said that Final Fantasy X's length is fine, and it's at 54kb, 4 more than this one. As I've said before, there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to length. Once you've established a comprehensive overview (and for the story this means touching on all the major story arcs, their developments and their resolutions), then you can begin to worry about length. As the article stands right now, I think it's at the adequate stage, with the exception of what we're discussing here (Magus). Ryu Kaze 12:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I honestly think the whole Magus thing is trivial at best, and this is something we have to be very careful about wording. I say we mention the confrontation with Magus (when I made the first draft of the new story section, this was something I was wondering myself), and say that Frog can choose whether or not to fight Magus, and that if he refuses, Magus will join the party. Sir Crazyswordsman 23:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you think we could word it such that Magus offers Frog the opportunity for a showdown, and that if the player then refuses, Magus joins? Then later on at the end, we can mention that if Magus joined, he goes to search for Schala at that point? Something like this:


 * "Moreover, he informs them that Gaspar could possibly help bring Crono back, and then offers Frog the opportunity to settle their feud in a final battle. Should the player refuse to fight Magus, he then joins the party. Visiting the old man at the End of Time, the player learns that he is Gaspar..."


 * "The actual ending of the game depends on when the player defeated Lavos, as well as some other choices that can produce minor variations. The first time through the game, team members say their goodbyes during the last night of the Millennial Fair and return to their own eras in time. Additionally, if Magus joined the party earlier, it is revealed that he now plans to search for his missing sister. Crono's mom then accidentally enters..."


 * Would that satisfy you and me both, Bill? Ryu Kaze 23:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure how well the retroactive PlayStation version FMV ending would pan out in the Story section either, since it's not mentioned here: Crono and Lucca are married, Lucca finds the infant Kid, Magus is not shown (neither is Robo), and Frog is knighted by King Guardia as Glenn, no matter what ending the player receives. Regardless of the story's continuation in the sequels, this creates a loophole that may be considered cruft if it were mentioned. ~ Hibana 23:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Just to settle the problem of canon...Masato Kato has fully intended that Magus survives Chrono Trigger. Though Guile's backstory as Magus was kicked out of Chrono Cross, Radical Dreamers definitively settles this with a little exchange between Magil (Magus in disguise) and Kid. Kid asks if Magil knew the Masamune's owner. Magil replies yes. She then asks if the owner were Magil's friend. He gives a typical "...", to which she asks if the owner were Magus's enemy. He conclusively says that he was not (with one little "no", to boot). If Magus had died on the cape, it certainly wouldn't have repaired the relations between the two. In the Game Pro Interview, he regretted not being able to include Magus in Chrono Cross, noting that he'd like to write more about him. It is also very important to note that Masato Kato was sitting behind Toriyama's Bird Studio when they created those PSX cutscenes, meaning he was fully aware of Glenn's human form. This means Frog naturally reverted to Glenn or Magus simply removed the spell for him.


 * As for the article's length, if the current setup is fine, I'm all for it. I made a "main plot article" back when I was unaware of the comprehensiveness requirement's taking precedence, and the only original content on that page now is the list of characters. Perhaps we should just excise the summary from that page, move it to List of Chrono Trigger characters, and fill in some more NPC information from the Compendium. --Zeality 23:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for everyone's input so far, but if I may, I'd like to request a little clarification: given that Bill's not so much contending whether or not Magus lived as he is whether or not he joined, and given that we should be setting up for the Radical Dreamers and Chrono Cross articles here, does anyone think the compromise I proposed is a fair one? Given that Magus has to join for that information (the search for Schala and Lucca's knowledge of said search) to be, I think it absolutely imperative that it be mentioned, but I'm willing to present it amidst the player's choice to fight Magus or not fight him. Ryu Kaze 23:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. Zeality, I think we probably could drop that other article, really. Ryu Kaze 23:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure, the proposal seems to cover the bases. Alas, I knew the main plot article well. Radical Dreamers is in the pipe for Good Article (and it's been there since the beginning of this month), and I'm not quite sure if a size requirement exists for FA and whether RD would meet it if so. Chrono Cross should be ready for a peer review, though if I could get some input on the character section, it'd be appreciated. Its length and comprehensiveness are the last things I'm not definitively sure about. --Zeality 23:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I vaugely remember the story, so I can't really give input on the Magus issue specifically. &mdash; Deckill e r 00:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

My only complaint with the first version of the story was that it was stated that Magus joined the group. I contended that he only joined if the player chose not to fight him. As long as the choice is mentioned (or the entire incident isn't mentioned), I'm happy.

As to the ending scenarios, if you look at my endings guide, you see that I do much of what was suggested above, indicating what happens if you did or didn't fight Magus. There has to be a limit, though, since the number of factors affecting the endings can be significant (e.g., if you crashed the Epoch into Lavos, then it doesn't appear in the ending.)

There are many endings that are clearly not compatible with each other (e.g., everybody Reptites and/or Frogs). Therefore, anyone working on a sequel must assume certain conditions at the end of the game. That doesn't make the other endings invalid, however. It merely means they were not used as the ending scenario for the sequel. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 10:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It does make them not part of the official story, though (or stories as the case is here). Anyway, as long as we can both be satisfied with the above compromise, I guess all is well. I certainly have no problems with presenting it that way. I just think it's vital that a reader be able to read this and then understand what's going on in Radical Dreamers. Glad that we have an accord. I'll go ahead and make the adjustments. Ryu Kaze 12:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks fine to me. Good job! —Preceding unsigned comment added by wrp103 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Ryu Kaze 00:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

References in pop culture
I'm not sure if anyone else is aware of references to CT in pop culture, but there is an reference to chronotrigger in the tv series Arrested Development (albeit somewhat obscure), which may be worth mentioning in the article. If anyone knows of other references, it may be worth adding, just to demonstrate the far-reaching influences of CT. Timbatron 22:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It has to be of a Reliable Source. Strong Bad also mentioned the game in his Couch Mumbling gag once, but we can't include that either.  If we weren't looking to feature the article, I'd reconsider.  But that's not the case.  Although we probably can't include it (I wish from the bottom of my heart that we could), I'd like to see where you found this out.  Sir Crazyswordsman  00:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree that this probably doesn't belong on this page. I noticed the reference myself when I was watching through season 3 a second time. There's a scene where Michael Sr. talks about an idea he had of making a floating island in the sky. They cut to a drawing of an island floating in the sky, and the music that is played is almsot the same as the music from "Zeal Island" Timbatron 20:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Better known?
I seriously doubt Chrono Cross was "Chrono Trigger's better known PlayStation sequel". Chrono Trigger is still referenced in pop culture, while Chrono Cross is not. Chrono Trigger appears in many lists praising the top games, where are Chrono Cross is only mentioned nowadays when referring to Chrono Trigger. I don't have sources to back up the last part, but I guarantee you a you'll find more mentions of and references to the original than Chrono Cross. -Unknownwarrior33 07:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The better known is meant to compare Chrono Cross to Radical Dreamers. --Zeality 10:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That should probably be clarified.  Sir Crazyswordsman  14:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Got it. Ryu Kaze 15:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

FA
Congratulations, everyone!

If someone wants to prepare our main page blurb here, we can request August 22nd or something in that neighborhood. Not sure if there's a remote chance we'll get it, but this is the date CT was released in the USA. Do we also get to add Wikipedia 1.0 CD selection, or is that all handled through Project:CVG?

Chrono Cross is next. I printed it out and did a hardcopy round of editing, and I've solicited some other help from the Compendium in making it shine. --Zeality 19:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ha-zaa! It's about time! ~ Hibana 22:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I doubt we'll see any video game articles in Wikipedia 1.0, sadly. :( I wanted to get Final Fantasy VIII or Shadow of the Colossus in there, but I just don't think they're going to take any. Perhaps in a later version. Good luck, though, if you want to try it. Ryu Kaze 02:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

About the lead
I wanted to post this remark before the article gains FA status. I want to comment on the lead: It doesn't tell what the game is about, not even a small summary of what the game goal is, and therefore it doesn't summarise the article. And plus there is too much information about the people involved in the production: Mentioning the audio composer and director is too futile to be mentioned in the lead. CG 19:47, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It does mention what the game is about. Read the end of the first paragraph.  It has the a summary of the story in it.  Most of the articles done by "Team Square Enix" follow the format used in Chrono Trigger.  Our other featured articles, Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy X, and Final Fantasy X-2 follow a similar format to Chrono Trigger.  Sir Crazyswordsman  03:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think he posted that before we added story information lead a few hours ago. --Zeality 05:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Images
This message is to let you all know that I've resized most of the images on this page to ensure that they meet fair-use criteria. This change was sparked by the more intensive analysis of what is and isn't fair-use that's been going on lately, an example of which can be seen in Final Fantasy VII's FAC. I don't want any FA articles losing their status over this, or any good images being deleted. So if you guys have any articles you watch regularly, look into the sizes of their images. We don't want to lose any good material unnecessarily. Ryu Kaze 02:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Trimming them down by 5 pixels on heighth and width seems superfluous. Is this really happening? I thought Fair Use was just that -- fair use, not "see if we can get something copyrighted under the radar." --Zeality 02:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Zeality, I'd suggest looking at the Chrono Cross images, as they may be needed to be sized down.  Sir Crazyswordsman  03:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I had to trim most of them by much more than five pixels. :(
 * The only one that got minimal adjustment was the Magus image, I think. Anyway, yeah, it's come to this, Zeality. I've had to shrink about 80-90 images today. Ryu Kaze 04:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Video game citations
I just discovered Cite video game. I think it is a good replacement for the inline game citations the article has now. Does the one who added those dialogs be able to change it? -- ReyBrujo 01:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Done for all the Chrono articles.--Zeality 16:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Reception and criticism
"one of only four Square Enix games outside the Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy franchises to have sold more than one million copies by 2003"

According to the reference, there are much more than four Square Enix games that have sold more than one million copies. There:


 * SaGa Frontier (1,080 million)
 * Parasite EVE 2 (1,090)
 * Chocobo no Fushigina Dungeon (1,140)
 * Xenogears (1,190)
 * Romancing SaGa (1,320)
 * Makaitoushi SaGa (1,370)
 * Romancing SaGa 2 (1,490)
 * Chrono Cross (1,500)
 * Seiken Densetsu 2 (1,830)
 * Parasite EVE (1,940)
 * Chrono Trigger (2,650)
 * Kingdom Hearts (3,300)

Twelve games... So I guess I'm deleting the sentence. Kariteh 18:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

did you check if the games DID sell that much BEFORE 2003? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.167.183.101 (talk • contribs).

Battle on the Blackbird Epoch
I think a recent anon edit that was reverted is correct. Marle and others do battle Dalton atop the Epoch. Marle then presses a button which fires a laser, destroying part of the Blackbird, causing it to crash. This image will clarify it, but I don't know the best way to summarize those events in the text. ~ Hibana 00:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I rolled back the wrong page. I have no opinion. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Both are a bit wrong and right at the same time. Dalton is fought on the Epoch, but it is the Blackbird which then crashes, not the Epoch. I corrected the mistake. Kariteh 13:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * actually, at this point in the game, isn't it whoever is in your party before your characters are imprisioned —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.154.117.158 (talk • contribs).

Chrono Cross
Am I the only one who finds it weird that there is no easily noticable reference to Chrono Cross in the article? I could understand this if Chrono Cross was some kind of pseudo-sequel/weird spin-off, or if it had some weird circumstances where people are not aware of the relation between the two games. But that isn't the case. It is a direct sequel that was fairly popular, but is only mentioned twice.

It is mentioned that Chrono Cross made use of the New Game+ concept, which gives no indication of Chrono Cross's relation to Chrono Trigger.

It is then mentioned in the sequels section, and is given about the same amount of text as every other sequel, with absolutely no indication that it was a fairly popular game at the time of its release, or how it is related to Chrono Trigger (saying it was adapted from Radical Dreamers does not really do justice to how it relates to Chrono Trigger).

For a comparison, look at The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. That game is considered to be much more popular and well known than its sequel, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, but nonetheless, Majora's Mask is mentioned in the first paragraph of the article on Ocarina of Time. I think that Chrono Cross defintiely needs a mention in the beginning of this article, and probably its own paragraph in the Sequels section, because at this point it seems like it is just a side note in the description of Radical Dreamers. I think that seems like a weird way to mention it, given that it is inarguably more well known than Radical Dreamers.

Any thoughts?


 * You can add some more text about Chrono Cross in the Sequels section, but remember, the article is about Chrono Trigger, not Chrono Cross. I would also suggest that we should add a "See Also" section.  I'm not sure if Chrono Cross should be mentioned in the opening paragraph, but certainly in the "See Also" section.
 * There are a lot of articles about Chrono Trigger, but no easy way to find them all. I recommend creating a "Chrono Trigger Characters" page, which could include links to the various articles on characters.  The reason I suggest the  new page is because I think a long list of character articles in the "See Also" section could get messy, but maybe I'm wrong. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 12:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Kingdom Trial
This may be off-topic, but comparing the tunes of the trial in Chrono Trigger and Pink Floyd's track The Trial (from The Wall), they sound strikingly similar in some respects. Perhaps such a comment could go under a 'Trivia' section? --65.96.218.168 00:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * A couple of problems with that: (1) Trivia sections are frowned upon, especially in featured articles, which are supposed to exemplify Wikipedia best work (meaning, among other things, good prose, not choppy lists of disparate facts). Worse, (2) unless that comparison is mentioned in a reliable source, it's original research, which is forbidden. — TKD::Talk 00:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a very apt observation, though. I was watching The Wall the other day, and noticed it immediately. Glad someone else did! Themill 10:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Quick thing
In the description of luccas charicture it says she was fualed by an accedent that destroyed her mothers legs, but the problem with this is that that is not necesarily true. As the gamer you get the ability to stop it from hapining, so saying it as a difinitive fact is wrong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pwright329 (talk • contribs).


 * well, yes and no, as shown in the game, time is the defining factor of the entire story....so really, it is a mistake, yet it's not a mistake...it's just the creator's interpretation on how time would work if mankind was in control of it

Fan Projects
Both parts of the fan projects section are seemingly notable. The CTR / CTRP projects are notable because they elicited a cease & desist letter from Square Enix. Compare to several modification articles and...well, it seems Halogen ISN'T mentioned on the Halo articles, despite a disambig page. Well, disregarding that, fan translations are usually mentioned on CVG articles. We had a discussion about this somewhere in the WP:CVG archives after some guy started removing information about the translation for Radical Dreamers. Nonetheless, the ones for Chrono Trigger aren't done yet, and I guess they could be left out until they're complete. As for the CTR / CTRP, I leave that up to other members to argue for / against. --Zeality 18:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Fan translations are usually the only way English-speaking gamers encounter certain games, whereas these fan projects are are coming years and years after the release of the game and didn't even get finished. I'd say CTR/CTRP, I'd say they need to stay out unless someone comes up with some independent coverage, and the fan translations of released games probably shouldn't be mentioned save under the same conditions. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That 3D version of Chrono Trigger even made the national standard press in Australia, well the "games corner" of the sunday pull out anyway. People really did want it and it was talked about quite a bit for a fan project. On the flip side, I can't say I've even really heard of any other mods/fan makes for Chrono Trigger. Not to say they weren't famous, I don't know if they were or not, I've just never heard of them JayKeaton 14:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to chime in...I remembered that there are several articles linked here (I think almost ten) covering CTR. They're at the bottom. The entire CTR thing still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, so it's up to you guys. Once the retranslation is finished, I'll stick it back in there, since game articles with sound English translations still make mention of completed ones (like Final Fantasy IV). There are quite a few differences (though nothing earth-shattering). --Zeality 08:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

RPG Fansites
However, other critics, such as the staff of video game websites RPGFan and RPGamer... personally I question wether or not these two fan sites are note worthy. Only three actual article pages link to RPGFan, one of them is Chrono Trigger, and any mention of RPGamer seems to have been added by the same person. Shouldn't critics be someone that can get a press pass, not some guy on a fansite (I love fansites by the way, fight the incorporated game sites like IGN! But, they are still just fansites). If there are no objections in the next week, I will delete mention of both those sites and make it say "some fans felt that it was too short" or summat like that. Even then I'm not sure if two guys from two fansites are enough people to warrent mentioning. I could say the cart was made of solid gold and put it on my own site, rpgfan4eva.com, but that still doesn't make it true. And certainly not note worthy JayKeaton 14:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The notability test comes from Game Rankings, where we go to get reviews. If a fan site is listed at Game Rankings, it's...generally trustworthy, though only sites in bold typeface are 100% sure. I'm not sure if these two are regular or bold...but they're at least listed. IIRC, we had to do some digging to find those citations, since fan polls to the same effect can't be used. --Zeality 08:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Radiata Stories
The "Gameplay" section cites Radiata Stories as an example of another game where Square used the New Game+ concept -- but Radiata Stories wasn't developed by Square (or Square Enix), it was developed by tri-Ace, an independent company. (See the Wikipedia page.) I think it's a little inaccurate to list in this context, and there are plenty of other examples, so I've removed Radiata Stories from the list. Hope there are no objections... Kuribosshoe 03:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Colbert Trivia
The names of the three gurus predates Chrono Trigger, as mentioned in Three_Wise_Men. The addition has been removed. --Htmlism 23:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That many copies?
Why is it impossible to find this game at any used game store, yet many other SNES games are available. Why is it almost nobody has heard of this game, yet has heard of other games? I think CT's popularity is simply an illusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.103.71.130 (talk • contribs) 12:44, 13 December 2006
 * Actually, the fact that you can't find it is evidence of its popularity. It's the same case with other popular games: Earthbound, Super Mario World, Super Mario RPG; no one who has the game wants to sell it. Dlong 17:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And you can find tens of copies at any given time on Ebay. --Zeality 19:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect Statement
"...as most modern single-player titles continue to feature a transition from field or overworld map to battle screens."

Neverwinter Nights 2, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and Dungeon Siege II to name a few do not contain this feature, so I'm pretty sure this statement is incorrect. Namazi 23:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've since removed the statement. --Htmlism 23:47, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Spoilers
Why is there no spoiler warning in this article? Just curious. Oh and will there be a future reference to the "PLAY" tour of video game music? They played a lot of stuff from Crono Trigger and Crono Cross. They did like a medley and Frog's Theme. ForestAngel 18:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * As has been discussed on other articles (notably Talk:Final Fantasy VII and recently Talk: Final Fantasy X ), WP:FF and WP:SE have made it part of their general policy not to use spoiler warnings on Featured Articles under their scopes. Cited commonly are the Disclaimers, linked to at the bottom of every single page on Wikipedia (more specifically, the content disclaimer), and Wikipedia is not censored. Hope that answers your question!


 * As for the tour thing, I have no idea, I don't keep up on that kind of stuff. ^^; Nique1287 18:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The Play! tour thing is already mentioned actually. Kariteh 16:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)