Talk:Chronogram

Chronograms in the Roman Empire
The Roman numerals sections says

The practice originated in the late Roman Empire but page vi of the preface of

Chronograms, by James Hilton, F.S.A.  http://books.google.com/books?id=yMRPAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA480&dq=chronogram+date+roman+empire&hl=en&sa=X&ei=O8KMU9b9DoSdqAa27IL4DQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=chronogram%20date%20roman%20empire&f=false

says

It has been said that the Romans used chronograms in thier later works, but after extensive search I have not met with any, and writers who have given currency to the affirmation have not supported it by examples. EcuPadic (talk) 18:43, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

This statement was also inconsistent with information in the Hebrew Numerals section so I hedged it to   Chronograms from the Roman Empire are reported but not confirmed. and referenced Hilton's book. EcuPadic (talk) 20:15, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Why there's no point adding Category:Latin language
I see no point in adding Category:Latin language to this article. Chronograms can be rendered in any language written in Roman script, but nobody would (I hope) suggest adding a category to this article for every Roman-script language. -- ChrisO 11:14, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I see every point in adding cat: Latin language to the article as it involves Roman numerals and clearly derives from classical civilisation. Cat: Ancient Rome does not seem as helpful as Latin language for people looking for related articles. Use of Roman numerals/Latin letters seems entirely pertinent to categorisation in Latin language. Where's the harm? Man vyi 12:01, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)


 * Roman numerals aren't part of the Latin language any more than Arabic numerals are part of English. Even the Roman numerals article doesn't have a Category:Latin language tag, which does rather undermine your argument. Category:Numeration would be more appropriate. -- ChrisO 13:24, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * But unless I've misunderstood the text of the article, the form originated in the dual use in Latin of letters/numerals as a form of wordplay - hence rooted in Latin literature.


 * Definitely a good idea, though, with cat:Numeration - this is such an interesting little article with apects of all sorts of things, it should get better known! Man vyi 18:43, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

What about chronograms in other numeration systems?
Chronograms are quite commonly used on the title pages of Hebrew books, and I would imagine that other numeration systems that use alphabetic characters (such as Greek) use them as well. Shouldn't this article be generalized to include those, and perhaps have the "Latin language" category removed? Or should this page be converted to a category page, with links to pages describing chronograms in various numeration systems?


 * Proposal: move this page to "Chronogram (Roman numerals)." Aheppenh 23:43, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Oppose move. This article should be expanded and editted to encompasses those other systems of chronographs rather than giving each its own page.  Dragons flight 23:47, August 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * One problem I see with this is that then the Category:Latin language tag becomes meaningless, or would have to be joined by half a dozen other "Language" tags, which amounts to the same thing. - Aheppenh 00:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I see no problem removing the tag if this article was to be written about chronograms from the perspective of multiple languages. Dragons flight 03:31, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Move request withdrawn. Aheppenh 23:37, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

bidi markup
I'm still not happy with this, but it seems there is no other safe way to mix numbers, punctuation, hebrew, and english. Previously there were such gems as these (hebrew replaced with #s) No use of or lang was able to fix these. Keep this in mind when editing or adding to these examples --Random832 13:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Note. For those examples the markup is now: ({LRE}=, "the major era"{PDF})

[{LRE} = 391; together 471{PDF}]

America's Greatest Chronogram
Many of the US Founding Fathers were Freemasons. Using Simple English Gematria based on the key: A=1...Z=26 (with the only irregularity being the circle - either the 15th letter or zerO), they encoded GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4. - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 64.136.26.22 (talk) 15:09, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Uh-huh. Any evidence that this is what they meant? You can prove anything with gematria.
 * --Thnidu (talk) 04:18, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

"the Jews"
As a Jew, I found the wording of the first sentence of the section Hebrew numerals irritating and offensive:
 * The great popularity of chronograms among the Jews, and the extent to which they have been cultivated, may be explained by the fact that they are a variety of Gematria, which latter was highly regarded by the Jews and much practised by them.

The sentence is a direct quote from the article CHRONOGRAM in the Jewish Encyclopedia, which is credited in the External Links:
 * This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Jewish Encyclopedia. 1901–1906.

The only difference is the change of JE's transliteration GemaṬria to the usual English spelling Gematria.

To a modern sensibility, this use of the phrase "the Jews" is, at best, outdated in its treatment of Jews as other. This usage contrasts the implicit us (assumed to be white and Christian) with assorted thems: "the Jews", "the Negroes" (to apply the most polite word in white use in 1906), "the Mohammedans" (Muslims), "the Hindoos" (Hindus), and so on.

I have changed the sentence to
 * The great popularity of chronograms in Jewish tradition, and the extent to which they have been cultivated, may be explained by the fact that they are a variety of the Jewish mystical practice of Gematria.

--Thnidu (talk) 05:14, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

A modern example
The song "Close Up the Streams" by Therion. Funny enough, I figured the point of the upper-case letters out without even knowing at the time what a chronogram was. I'm S-M-R-T! --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:33, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, "Tuna 1613". The use of the technique is apparently in homage to Johannes Bureus, who wrote a book titled faMa e sCanzIa reDUX, published in 1616. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:44, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

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Translation?
The article's Roman numerals section was giving "Christ the Leader, therefore triumphant" for ChrIstVs DuX ergo trIVMphVs. But that would translate *ChrIstVs DuX ergo trIVMphans, which really isn't the same thing. If I'm right - and this is not my specialist subject! - "Triumphus", appearing alone, would mean "[It's a] triumph", and the clearest expression of the meaning of the Latin would be more like "Christ is the Leader, and that's a triumph".

The article needs something slightly more formal, to translate a coin inscription. And there's a slight awkwardness in the Latin, straining a bit to get the final V of trIVMphVs, which is worth capturing. I've substituted "Christ the Leader so a triumph".

- ''SquisherDa (talk) 09:59, 30 January 2020 (UTC)