Talk:Chronology of Provisional Irish Republican Army actions (1970–1979)

Nice work but
Hello, I've actually some experience listing the IRA actions and context for the Sabotage/S-plan campaign and Northern Campaign. I was actually told off by a user called Damac for doing this, although I didnt worry about that. The reason his views dont matter is because wikipedia is now the only place online or in print that has the "actions" of those campaigns listed chronologically and as fully as records of events allow. I plan to do the same for the Border Campaign, as like the previous two it isnt listed in its entirety anywhere either.

However, this listing for the PIRA, (unlike the three for the IRA), doesnt appear to have much point. That isnt to criticise the effort people have put into it, but unless im missing something it just seems to be a cut & paste job from CAIN? So im wondering what the point is in browsing half a list here instead of just visiting CAIN and browse the entire, original list with all the surrounding historical context there? Fluffy999 18:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the point is that if it's all wonderful and free to use by anyone, and open to everyone.  Erin Go Bragh talk 10:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've tried adding stuff that isn't contained in CAIN to the article and will continue to do so. A complete Chronology of actions would indeed be a very valuable resource.--86.44.43.147 (talk) 15:11, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Items temporarily removed

 * Colonel Gaddafi announced that he had supplied arms to "revolutionaries" in Ireland.
 * The IRA also threatens to kidnap or kill Irish cabinet ministers and the President of Ireland.

Neither of these had any dates and just seemed to appear randomly in the order of events. I'll do some research and try and find where they go. One Night In Hackney 13:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

What should go in this article?
The title is Chronology of Provisional IRA Actions. However some of the entries appear to be actions against PIRA. Should the article be renamed and expanded to be Chronology of Actions Involving the Provisional IRA? Or should the article name remain the same, and items removed which are actions against, not by, PIRA? --81.132.246.132 17:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Valid contibution removed
Why were my contributions to sub section 1984 removed? All had valid references to CAIN. --86.170.158.98 18:15, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What was the contribution? --Baldeadly (talk) 16:26, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind, my mistake --86.170.158.98 17:55, 3 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.151.129 (talk)

NPOV
I am yet tofind an artilcle on wikipeida on thissubject which doesn't have a republican bais. The use of weasle words is rampant. Please someone fix it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.33.238.60 (talk) 17:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you give us an example of this from the text?--Baldeadly (talk) 22:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Footnote cleanup
I noticed that there is a link in the footnotes that leads nowhere. It's the reference for the events of Nov. 25, 1993, in footnoite #472. The link uses the template "wikiref" which connects to nothing. (Also I notice that there are a lot of footnotes which could be combined, but there is a bot that may come by someday and fix these ... ) CharlesGillingham (talk) 02:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I fixed both of these problems. There are still a few repeated references, and many of the references could use a better format, so I can't quite remove the cleanup template. Hopefully one of you won't mind fixing these last ones. CharlesGillingham (talk) 00:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok I sorted and combined all the tags where possible so I will remove the cleanup tag. --Baldeadly (talk) 19:12, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposed move
I recently moved the article to Timeline of Provisional Irish Republican Army actions. As I explained, the reason I did this was so that the title matched the titles of similar articles – for example Timeline of the Irish Republican Army, Timeline of the Northern Ireland Troubles, Timeline of the Irish Civil War, Timeline of the Irish War of Independence, Timeline of the Irish revolution, Timeline of Real Irish Republican Army actions, Timeline of Irish National Liberation Army actions, Timeline of Ulster Volunteer Force actions, Timeline of Ulster Defence Association actions etc. This was reverted for being "disruptive and undiscussed", so I've brought it to the talk page. If there aren't any objections by this time next week I'll move it back. ~Asarlaí 13:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You're a funny little man. You moved it to be inline with two articles that didn't even exist at the time and another article you moved at the exact same time?! There's a subtle diference between a timeline and a chronlogy, this is a chronology not a timeline. 2 lines of K  303


 * So are you going to change the titles of those articles to match this? What is that subtle difference between a timeline and chronology? ~Asarlaí 13:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Would anyone else like to pitch-in? ~Asarlaí 03:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Tags
Recent edits have introduced all sorts of commentary not present in the sources, in addition to presenting the opinion of CAIN as fact. When it comes to a multitude of deaths on CAIN the exact perpetrator is not known, and it's a best guess. While CAIN may be good for many things, a bold claim of "The IRA killed...." referring to any person which can't be explicity verified by another source isn't good at all. 2 lines of K 303  14:11, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The Sutton Index of Deaths comes from the book "Bear in mind these dead" by Malcolm Sutton which is a comprehensice study of all those killed in the course of the conflict which attributes (where possible) those organisations responsible for the kllings. In cases where a perpetrator is not known this is stated.--Baldeadly (talk) 02:13, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see Sutton's book as being particularly comprehensive. With >3000 deaths by the time of publication and only 252 pages, you've looking at ~12 deaths per page which isn't enough to go into the detail required especially for many of the civilian deaths. The people killed by the IRA (and equally, this applies to other organisations too) fall into three particular categories:
 * People who the IRA admits killing
 * People who the IRA don't admit killing, but other people have blamed them
 * People who the IRA don't admit killing, but other people have blamed them but the IRA deny responsibility
 * Sutton (or indeed CAIN) doesn't use categories like that, he just blames the most popular suspect and says they are responsible. That's all well and good for his purposes, but not when it's being used to source a neutral encyclopedia. You can't say "The IRA were responsible", but equally due to Sutton's poor methodology you can't say "The IRA were believed to be responsible" or anything else like that. Sutton is useless as a source, and unless someone comes up with a way round this NPOV problem I intend to remove anything sourced by it from the article as failing NPOV which is a Foundation level policy. 2 lines of K  303  14:22, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I am currently adding information to all deaths lister on this page from Lost Lives - as you can understand this is a large task and will take sometime, I currently have done the period 1993 - 2009. I will do this for all deaths in the other sections too. --Baldeadly (talk) 03:42, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Lost Lives (from the pages I've read so far) is a more useful work, as it tends to give details on suspicions and who holds them and so on, rather than just a straight "The IRA did it" field to be filled in like CAIN use. 2 lines of K  303  14:19, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Only got my hands on it recently - got a lend as it's very expensive to buy. Am moving backwards through the list so it could take some time. --Baldeadly (talk) 23:52, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposed split
Unless that are any concrete objections this article should be split into 1970s, 1980s and so on. At present it's way over the recommended size for articles, and I can't even view individual diffs on my browser. This article will remain containing a summary for each decade containing the most notable incidents obviously. 2 lines of K 303  13:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * As of yesterday, this article is #10 in the longest Wikipedia articles and according to the Size rule should definitely be split, so go for it. Besides taking long toload, some browsers may not even display it properly. ww2censor (talk) 16:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I would do it myself but, as I've never tried splitting such a big article, I'd rather leave it to someone with more experience. ~Asarlaí 17:16, 5 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The article fails to load properly, a single edit can take minutes. Split right now.--Darius (talk) 16:21, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Split performed on 9 December 2010.--Darius (talk) 16:43, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

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