Talk:Chronology of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church)

Archive?
Is is time to archive some/all of this talk page? -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 22:22, 2 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes. Banaticus (talk) 22:49, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

George Q. Cannon, Brigham Young Jr., and Joseph F. Smith
Hello. While I applaud the correction recently made to this article, that Brigham Young Jr. remained Quorum President while George Q. Cannon, his apostolic senior, served in the First Presidency, the second half of that assertion I do not agree with. Brigham Young Jr. was ordained an apostle prior to the ordination of Joseph F. Smith as such, but Joseph F. Smith was the first of the two to be appointed to serve in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And while there may have been a time in the Church after the ordination of both that Brigham Young Jr. was considered the senior apostle, he was the junior in membership of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. This gets more confusing when reading a paper on the issue that says that Brigham Young Jr. was initially sustained as the junior to Joseph F. Smith, but that six months later, in the sustaining of Church officers, Brigham Young Jr. had been listed as senior to Joseph F. Smith. This change was made at Brigham Young's insistence, and regardless of how his son felt on the matter. It was only in the year 1900, when the matter came up before the First Presidency (Lorenzo Snow, George Q, Cannon, and Joseph F. Smith), based on a question from the President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Franklin D. Richards at that time), that the matter of who should be senior in that case came up. As a result of discussing this issue, the seniority of Brigham Young Jr. and Joseph F. Smith were reversed. So while George Q. Cannon and Joseph F. Smith were both serving in the First Presidency, Cannon was senior to Young Jr. who was senior tom Smith, until 1901, after which it was Cannon, then Smith, then Young Jr. And based on that, Smith would have become Quorum President at the time Cannon passed away. But Brighan Young Jr. retained the Quorum Presidency despite the fact that Joseph F. Smith was then senior to him in the apostleship. If Brigham Young Jr. had been senior in the apostleship to Joseph F., he would have been the 6th President of the Church for the 2.5 years between the death of Lorenzo Snow and his own passing. Just wanted to make that point clearer than it was stated in the edit summary. Brigham Young Jr. was the first to be ordained an apostle, but actually took his place in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles after Joseph F. Smith had been a member of that quorum for a couple of years. Hope that adequately addresses any confusion on this issue --Jgstokes (talk) 04:25, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * When was Brigham Young Jr first listed as senior to Joseph F. Smith? I think that should be part of the chronology.  Other changes in seniority order are listed. FreePeoples (talk) 17:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

This is where I found the information. I was able to sort through it enough to clarify this point in my comment above, but am not currently able to incorporate the needed changes from the source material. If you are able to do so, feel free. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 23:35, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Succession in the First Presidency
Hello again, everyone! While I appreciate the ongoing good-faith efforts of editors to ensure that we don't jump the gun and assume that today's announcement from President Nelson means he will be announcing the new First Presidency on Tuesday, this article from the Salt Lake Tribune, which is well known for its' coverage of LDS matters and has no direct connection to the Church, seems to verify that the purpose of Nelson's address and the subsequent press conference will be for the new First Presidency to be announced and to meet the media. If there are any further questions on this point, I would welcome them here. I do agree, however, that we should not jump the gun and insert dates in the future for events that are anticipated but have not yet happened. I have studied enough about the transitions in Church presidencies to know that the meeting of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in which the First Presidency will be reorganized will likely occur tomorrow, as Sunday has been the standard day on which that occurs for at least the last 10 of the 16 presidents of the LDS Church. With that in mind, the 14th will likely be the day for that reorganization, even if the announcement is deferred to the following Tuesday. Until Tuesday, though, we will not know for certain that it will have occurred tomorrow. So patience is needed, but I wanted to pass all of this along. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 22:40, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I also think it is worthwhile to note that, if a reorganization is announced on Tuesday, it is likely that it actually took place on Sunday. The precedent of having such changes occur on Sunday has held true for all new Church presidents since Spencer W. Kimball. His 11 predecessors were ordained on other days of the week, but a precedent that has held true for the last 5 transitions does appear to make it safe to assume that the press conference on Tuesday will have taken place effective sometime tomorrow. But until that is verified on Tuesday, it is speculation and should not be included here on Wikipedia. --Jgstokes (talk) 00:58, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Additionally, this article from the Church News notes that since Monday is a national holiday (Martin Luther King Day) the meeting to reorganize will likely be held tomorrow, but that is why the announcement of those changes will be delayed until Tuesday. Thanks again. --Jgstokes (talk) 04:48, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Seniority in order of names in chart
There were several questions of seniority in the history of the quorum involving Orson Hyde, Orson Pratt, and Brigham Young, Jr. However, it appears that the chart treats the three differently.

Orson Hyde is listed according to his seniority based on his initial entry into the Quorum until 10 April 1875. The explanation given at that point is "Brigham Young rules that when an Apostle is removed from the Quorum and then readmitted at a later date, the Apostle loses his seniority in the Quorum and becomes the junior member of the Quorum upon readmission. Accordingly, the seniority positions of Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt are adjusted. Due to the readjustment, John Taylor becomes the senior Apostle in the Quorum." In summary, Orson Hyde is listed based on his pre-removal seniority until the 1875 decision and by his post-removal seniority after.

In contrast, Orson Pratt's is listed according to his seniority based on his initial entry into the Quorum until 9 February 1846 (when John E. Page was removed). No explanation is given at that point for his change in seniority. From that point forward, he is listed based on his change in seniority following Brigham Young's decision in 1875. In summary, Orson Hyde is listed based on his pre-removal seniority until 1846 (with no explanation given) and by his post-removal seniority thereafter.

Finally, Brigham Young, Jr is listed as junior to Joseph F. Smith from 9 October 1868 – April 1869. He is then listed senior to Joseph F. Smith from April 1869 - 3 September 1869 with the in-chart explanation, "Brigham Young, Jr. moved ahead of Joseph F. Smith in seniority." Yet from 3 September 1869 to 13 September 1898 (the last time both men were in the Quorum at the same time prior to 1900 decision switching their seniority), Joseph F. Smith is listed ahead of Brigham Young, Jr. The article explains that on 31 March 1900, "seniority changed to be time in the Quorum of the Twelve, instead time as apostle, making George Q. Cannon and Joseph F. Smith senior to Brigham Young Jr." Footnote 12 elaborates, "During the weekend of General Conference in which Smoot was sustained, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve deliberated the issue of apostolic seniority. The determination was made that Brigham Young Jr., who had been listed as the senior apostle to Joseph F. Smith since April of 1869 (likely in view of his having been ordained an apostle earlier), should definitively be considered the junior apostle to Joseph F. Smith. But since Smith was then serving in the First Presidency, Young continued as Quorum President until Snow's passing." In summary, Brigham Young, Jr is listed as junior to Joseph F. Smith with one exception even though the decision reversing seniority was not made until 1900.

Of course, seniority in the chart can be organized using different rationale, but it appears a different rationale is used for each of the three men. To see this, it helps to organize by pre- and post-decisions regarding seniority.

Orson Hyde is listed in the chart by pre-decision (1875) seniority until the decision is made, and by post-decision seniority after the decision has been made.

Orson Pratt is listed in the chart by pre-decision (1875) seniority until an apparently arbitrary date (did I miss something?) of 9 February 1846 and by post-decision seniority thereafter.

Brigham Young, Jr is listed in the chart by pre-decision (1900) seniority only immediately after his seniority was changed initially in April 1869. For the majority of the time from April 1869 until the 31 March 1900 decision reversing the 1869 decision, Brigham Young, Jr was seen as senior to Joseph F. Smith, but is listed junior.

I think it would be more consistent and accurate to list each man by his seniority as perceived during each time period until the seniority is changed (i.e., until 1875 for Hyde and Pratt and 1900 for Young, Jr). This raises the issue of how to handle George Q. Cannon's listed seniority, which is only briefly mentioned in the article. Perhaps a discussion of this point would be better after a discussion of the other points since how to handle it may be less clear (i.e., because Cannon was seen as senior to Young, Jr even though Young's ordination preceded his as it did Smith's, but Young entered the quorum after both. In short, it's inconsistent that Young was ever senior to Smith but not also Cannon). --Dlax16 (talk) 07:03, 19 January 2018 (UTC)


 * A couple of comments on the "issues" you raised. Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt both were temporarily disfellowshipped and removed from the Quorum on one or two separate occasions. At the times when they were readmitted to the Quorum, members appointed to take their place were removed from that Quorum. Upon their readmittance to the Quorum, both had a temporary reduction of seniority until Joseph Smith determined that there would be no further issues and was genuine and restored them to their prior seniority. The 1875 decision from Brigham Young that Quorum seniority should be based on longest continuous service meant that both that for Hyde and Pratt was reduced.
 * In the meantime, regarding Brigham Young Jr., his father ordained him an apostle prior to Joseph F. Smith (with the former ordained on February 4, 1864 and the latter on July 1, 1866) but Smith joined the Quorum proper in October 1867, and that only occurred for Young the year after that. Interestingly enough, since it was not the practice of the Church until November 1918 to sustain the most senior apostle in the Quorum of the Twelve as the Acting President of that Quorum while any apostles senior to him served as members of the First Presidency, Young Jr. served as the Quorum President both during the time when Smith was the second most senior apostle to the Church President alongside whom he served as a counselor in the First Presidency, and again after Smith became the 6th Church President. There are other similar anomalies you may note in the chronology, but they are all as easily as explained as the "errors" you referenced above. And all of them are well documented, either in this page itself, or in the sources the page cites for verification. Hope that helps. --Jgstokes (talk) 08:11, 19 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the additional information. Let's address one issue at a time to make it easier for me to follow, starting with Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt.


 * "Upon their readmittance to the Quorum, both had a temporary reduction of seniority until Joseph Smith determined that there would be no further issues and was genuine and restored them to their prior seniority." What was the timeline for this? I don't see it reflected in the chart or otherwise mentioned in the article. Furthermore, Orson Hyde is listed by his pre-removal seniority at all times up until the 1875 decision. Yet Orson Pratt's seniority is changed in the chart at 1846. Why is Pratt's seniority altered in 1846? (See the listed order of seniority for the row, "19 October 1845 – 9 February 1846" vs. the listed order of seniority in the row, "9 February 1846 – 27 June 1846"). No source or explanation is given for this change. Shouldn't Pratt and Hyde be both listed by their pre-1875 decision seniority until 1875?


 * Please know that I am not trying to be difficult. I found this inconsistency without explanation confusing and believe others would, too. --Dlax16 (talk) 21:26, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for those additional questions, and your expressed desire not to be difficult. It's no problem for me to address your concerns. You can find information on the chart about the changes affecting the membership in the Quorum and in the Church as they relate to Orson Hyde, Orson Pratt, and William Smith in the three date sets on the table that cover the time span between 4 May 1839 and 14 April 1840, and from 20 August 1842-27 June 1844. William Smith was formally excommunicated for apostasy in February 1846. Hopefully that helps. And again, all of this information can be backed up by the sources from which the content on this page has been drawn. What is your next question? Thanks again. --Jgstokes (talk) 03:12, 23 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but you did not answer my question. Let me be more specific.


 * In the chart, look at the row labeled "19 October 1845 – 9 February 1846". The seniority is listed:


 * 1. Brigham Young,
 * 2. Heber C. Kimball,
 * 3. Orson Hyde,
 * 4. Parley P. Pratt,
 * 5. Orson Pratt,
 * 6. John E. Page,
 * 7. John Taylor,
 * 8. Wilford Woodruff,
 * 9. George A. Smith,
 * 10. Willard Richards,
 * 11. Lyman Wight,
 * 12. Amasa M. Lyman


 * Orson Pratt is listed as senior to Page, Taylor, Woodruff, Smith, Richards, and Wight.


 * Now look at the very next row labeled, "9 February 1846 – 27 June 1846". The seniority is listed:


 * 1. Brigham Young
 * 2. Heber C. Kimball,
 * 3. Orson Hyde,
 * 4. Parley P. Pratt,
 * 5. John Taylor,
 * 6. Wilford Woodruff,
 * 7. George A. Smith,
 * 8. Willard Richards,
 * 9. Lyman Wight,
 * 10. Orson Pratt,
 * 11. Amasa M. Lyman


 * Orson Pratt is now listed as junior to Page, Taylor, Woodruff, Smith, Richards, and Wight. Why?


 * Orson Pratt's seniority was not changed until April 10, 1875. The same is true for Orson Hyde. Orson Hyde's seniority is correctly listed in the chart. However, Orson Pratt's seniority appears to have been prematurely changed in the chart (i.e., changed in the chart starting 9 February 1846 rather than 10 April 1875 when the change actually occurred). Dlax16 (talk) 22:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying your question. Hyde's reduced seniority was because he had temporarily been disfellowshipped in 1846 as a result of a very brief and temporary period of personal apostasy. Once he realized his error, he made efforts to reconcile with the Church, and, after doing so, was readmitted, but because Page, Taylor, Woodruff, Smith, Richards, and Wight had remained consistently faithful between the time of Hyde's apostasy and his reconciliation with the Church and restoration to the apostleship, Hyde's seniority was reduced at that time. As the chart shows, that decision was later reversed again, until 1875, when Young made the decision that uninterrupted faithful service determines Quorum seniority. And that is borne out and verified by the cited sources for verification. You can see this page for more information, as Wikipedia's biography of Hyde details all of this. --Jgstokes (talk) 02:07, 30 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your response concerning Orson Hyde. I am fully aware of the reason for the change in his seniority made in 1875.


 * You stated: "Once [Orson Hyde] realized his error, he made efforts to reconcile with the Church, and, after doing so, was readmitted, but because Page, Taylor, Woodruff, Smith, Richards, and Wight had remained consistently faithful between the time of Hyde's apostasy and his reconciliation with the Church and restoration to the apostleship, Hyde's seniority was reduced at that time." If I'm reading your statement correctly, you are saying that Hyde's seniority was reduced temporarily when he was readmitted to the quorum on 27 June 1839. What is the source for this assertion?


 * You then stated "As the chart shows, that decision was later reversed again, until 1875, when Young made the decision that uninterrupted faithful service determines Quorum seniority." If I'm reading your statement correctly, you are saying that the temporary reduction of Hyde's seniority (that you suggested occurred) after his readmission in 1839 was reversed restoring his pre-disfellowshipment seniority. What is the source for this assertion?


 * Also, your statement that the chart shows such a temporary reduction in fellowship is inaccurate. At no point in the chart is Orson Hyde's seniority ever shown to be reduced prior to 1875. Please review his seniority as listed in the chart. The temporary reduction in Hyde's seniority to which you allude is not reflected in the chart.


 * "And that is borne out and verified by the cited sources for verification." Which sources?


 * Finally, you did not respond to my comments concerning Orson Pratt. It is actually Pratt's seniority that I argued was incorrect in the chart. My comment was:


 * "Orson Hyde's seniority is correctly listed in the chart. However, Orson Pratt's seniority appears to have been prematurely changed in the chart (i.e., changed in the chart starting 9 February 1846 rather than 10 April 1875 when the change actually occurred)."


 * --Dlax16 (talk) 16:43, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Okay. Let me try to address your questions. First of all, Hyde's being disfellowshipped and his seniority reduced is fully documented with sources for verification on this page. If that is not enough verification for you, then Hyde's Wikipedia biography details all of this, including times when he was disfellowshipped, and the temporary excommunication.

Second, I wanted to let you know that I am trying to give you accurate information. Apostolic transitions as reflected on this page is something for which I have a passion. But for the last 4-6 weeks, I have been stuck at home with an extended illness which may be affecting my ability to correctly remember the relevant details. Just know that if his seniority is showing as reduced anywhere on this list prior to the 1875 decision by Brigham Young that had John Taylor replacing Hyde as Quorum President, that has only been added after verification by reliable sources.

If you need more information, and you can find either a physical copy of the Deseret News Church Almanac (the latest edition was printed in 2013), the entry for Orson Hyde among the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles gives some detail on all of this as well, as does the green-covered Church manual "Church History in the Fulness of Times". A look at the listings for Hyde in that volume would likely address your concerns better than I could in my current state of health.

With that said, I also wanted to note that the content of this page as it now stands only exists in its' current form after extensive deliberation and collaboration by many editors who have contributed to the page content based on information verified by relevant sources, and that all of this could additionally be verified by any personal research you are able to do. For example, a quick cursory internet search for Orson Hyde yields a plethora of sources that not only verifies the content of this chronology as it relates to Hyde, but may help fill in the blanks far better than I could. I am pleased to attempt to answer your questions to the best of my ability, but I'm sure some of those could be better addressed by personal research on your part, especially in the sources I have mentioned here. I pointed those sources out in an earlier comment responding to you, and those are the sources I have been referencing all along. I can lead you to the sources, but unless you opt to use them, you are likely to continue to be confused by all of this. If after reviewing Hyde's Wikipedia page, the internet search results, and Church History in the Fulness of Times you still have questions, I would be happy to try and address them. But in my present health difficulties, I may not be able to clarify such things as well as these sources would. Good luck with your research, and thanks again. --Jgstokes (talk) 02:04, 1 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your response. I have looked at the sources and I think we are actually in agreement, but are talking about different parts of the timeline. I think perhaps sharing a screenshot will better show what I am talking about. However, I think we should let the matter rest for a time. I'm sorry to hear you are not feeling well and hope that you feel better soon. Dlax16 (talk) 05:12, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

1. Multiple charts or one chart? 2. Apostle or not?
1) I don't see a point in making multiple charts unless we're trying to make it easier to see particular dates. I took the first chart and made it big.  Should the same happen with the other charts or should it all be combined into one chart?  2) I think we can all agree that those who are actually in the Quorum of the 12 Apostles are an apostle, right? So they should have "tenure as an apostle" yet this seems to be reserved for the president of the church or when there wasn't yet a quorum. So all of the current 12 apostles are marked as not currently having tenure as an apostle. We need different verbiage. Banaticus (talk) 23:03, 4 October 2020 (UTC)