Talk:Church of the Firstborn (LeBaron family)

Current status (note: talkpage section has been updated Mar 2020 ---hodgd..)
The Church of the Firstborn in the Fullness of Times is still active. Their church is in Colinia Lebaron. They have a yearly conference in October. There is a sister church in an undisclosed location in Mexico that is also active. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lobbynoise (talk • contribs) 22:30, 14 August 2016 (UTC) According to the article's sourcing (including here), Are fundamentalist Mormons in Colonia LeBaron, Chihuahua, adherents of the Latter Day Saint schism called the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times? 19:47, 25 March 2015 (UTC) 16:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I think the current status section is misleading. I have been trying to read the references.  No where dose it say that the "Church" is still active.  "Colonia LeBaron" is NOT the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times", it is a community in Mexico, just like the other five in the Plateau Colonies and 14 in Mexico as a whole.  Colonia LeBaron is not confined to "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times" members.  The LDS Church, Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times (Joel F. LeBaron), Church of the Firstborn (Ross Wesley LeBaron) and Church of the Lamb of God (Ervil LeBaron) all had or have membership in Colonia LeBaron.  To make the leap that since there are 1000 people in "Colonia LeBaron" to 1000 people in the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times" would be the same as saying that since there are 186,440 in Salt Lake City, there must be 186,440 LDS Church members in Salt Lake City.  There is no evidence that the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times" is still functioning in any of the cited sources.--- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 17:29, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
 * In fact the Utah State govemerment says "The group splintered after members committed a string of assassinations in the 1980's." The Primer Page 19]. To me it sounds like the "Church" part broke apart and is no longer functioning, but the town is still there.--- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 18:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The thousand members of the Joel LeBaron founded church number is based on Janet Bennion's research, supported by her intimate famiarity with this town and sect. That estimate reflects (1) almost all of the self-described "Mormon" population Colonia LeBaron, a substantial majority of the population, since Janet says that unlike mainstream Mormon colonias, most of the Hispanic population in LeBaron are there only seasonally, plus, (2) a very substantian portion of the population of this sect living in places elsewhere. Have you perused this source?--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 16:23, 30 March 2015 (UTC)


 *  Yes, this sect still exists. - A bit little unseemly for a US state's atty general's office cataloging membership of some religious minority living in some other country! But I suppose in this case the circumstances very well justify such a scenario. In any case, literally a ton of sources reference the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times' existence in Colonia LeBaron each and every decade since the village's founding in the 1920s. Furthermore those "Ervilites"-perpetrated assassinations which the Utah state atty. general's office references were indeed SOLELY carried out...NOT BY members this article's subject denomination, the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, but, rather...UPON them. So, Wikipedia would be better off following in-depth reportage and scholarship rather than some list-style, offhand report produced by civil servants (not so much offense intended)--namely, for example, the 2004 book by scholar Janet Bennion, who lived among the LeBaronites in the course of her gathering information on the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times (which is still almost entirely the predominant LeBaron sect), Bennion was led to believe by Colonia LeBaron residents who are fundamentalist Mormons that they continued to self-identify as belonging to the Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times and the six references to the full name of the sect in her book were not accompanied by any qualifications. (E.g., see book's initial Col. LeBaron chapter where it says,"The socialpolitical structure of Lebaron is based on the rules and structures extablished in the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times...." From the newspaper and magazine articles about this community I have read, it IS a very liberal one, comparatively speaking. However, even if the Chihuahua LeBaronites have experienced some diffusion of authority, resulting in a kind of independent-style Mormon fundamentalism somewhat typical of, say, the Centennial Park community (a situation which I merely speculate about since no sources would indicate this to be the case), the controlling fact here on Wikipedia is not Truth but verifiability, thus we are stuck with Bennion et al's statements that the community DOES indeed self-identify as holding to the beliefs and culture of the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 19:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 16:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Bennion's Desert Patriarchy's p. 54 speaks of two factions in the fullness of times group: liberal, believing the last days leader isn't on earth; and conservative, who have numerous claimants to the leadership status. Leadership succession disputes, as sourced in depth by numerous sources, do not necessarily equate to a sect's acquiring defunct status, per the problematic outlier of the attys gen site's cursory attempt at summarization and its haphazard conflation of ervil's and Joel's sects. Bennion's p. 59 says after joel's and ervil's deaths Verlan took the helm of the church and currently the church's leadership is in dispute.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 23:25, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Article's history section, should it already have one (I don't now recall), could be expanded by drawing on --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 17:32, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Suggested edit
"The Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times has membership in the hundreds in Chihuahua,Janet Bennion, Desert patriarchy: Mormon and Mennonite communities in the Chihuahua Valley, Univ. of Arizona Press (2004); ; ) along with reputed additional members in Baja California, California, Central America, and Utah."

Note that according to this source, in 1990, the Church of the Firstborn had members in Colonia LeBaron, in the Western U.S. (esp. San Diego, California) and Central America.
 * 1) Also see the Washington Post: "Ambushed by a Drug War: Mormon Clans in Mexico Find Themselves Targets of the Cartels," July 23, 2009: "The Mormon community based in Colonia LeBaron, numbering about 1,000...."
 * 2) Janet Bennion, Desert patriarchy: Mormon and Mennonite communities in the Chihuahua Valley, Univ. of Arizona Press (2004): p127: "The Church of the Firstborn grew quickly and established colonies in San Diego and Baja, Mexico.... p138: "The major rift that occurred during the 1990s between a liberal faction [...of the Church of the Firstborn] and a strictly conservative group, who moved down the road and continue to practice a more communal-based religious system based on the notion of a living prophet...." So, apparently, there is a "liberal faction" the CoFirstborn predominating in the village of Colonia LeBaron itself. [Btw, the CoF presumably also has members scattered about in Colonia Dublan and other Chihuahua communities as well as in other places in Mexico, the US, and Nicaragua.]
 * 3) This page, copyrighted by Instituto Nacional para el Federalismo y el Desarrollo Municipal, Gobierno del Estado de Chihuahua in 2009, lists Colonia LeBaron's population as 1,137. Galeana (which includes LeBaron)'s population was 3,763 in 1996. The predominant religion was Roman Catholic, at 80.9% of the population of people over 15, with the remainder principally "Mormon" and "Evangelical." --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:02, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Current prophet
Siegfried Widmar? --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:29, 25 March 2015 (UTC) There is no current prophet in the Church of the Firstborn in the Fullness of Times. --Lobbynoise (talk) 06:44, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Lobbynoise, as it is all we've to go on at the moment, we are very thankful for what we hope has your informed input here. Again: Thanks!--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Fulness of Times members did not commit murders
"'... ... 'The story of Colonia LeBaron 'Colonia LeBaron is one of several Mexican colonies, some established more than 100 years ago, founded by Mormon polygamists to escape prosecution for plural marriages.  'The community in northern Mexico was founded in 1944 by Alma Dayer LeBaron, the great-grandfather of murder victim Benjamin LeBaron, who moved to Mexico in the 1920s.  'Polygamy is not widespread in today's Colonia LeBaron, residents say. Many are dual citizens of the United States and Mexico.  'Deceased Utah polygamist Ervil LeBaron, a convicted murderer, is the great-uncle of Benjamin LeBaron. But the Colonia LeBaron community in Mexico is not affiliated with Ervil LeBaron's violent sect.  'Ervil LeBaron once lived in Colonia LeBaron, but in the 1970s had a falling out with a brother -- Benjamin's grandfather -- over leadership of a church based there, the Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times. 'Ervil LeBaron moved to Utah, where he led the Church of the Lamb of God. He ordered followers, among them a plural wife, to carry out numerous killings -- including the 1977 murder of 71-year-old Rulon C. Allred, leader of the Salt Lake City-based Apostolic United Brethren, another polygamous sect. LeBaron considered Allred a rival. Ervil LeBaron died in Utah State Prison on Aug. 16, 1981.'"--SL Trib link --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 23:37, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * This is a different set of murders. These were murders in 2009 in Colonia LeBaron.  The ones the Primer is referring to were in the 1980's by the Church of the Lamb of God.  Note that the primer was written in June 2006 and it lumped both into the same paragraph.  However you are correct in that the members of Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times were not the killers so the sentence isn't right as is.
 * However, in a nutshell, Ervil LeBaron ordered the murders of members of his own family (Some were leaders in (Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times) and even some of those who were his supporters in the 1980's from his prison cell. Ervil plural wife Rena Chynoweth wrote in 1990: "Between 1972 and 1988, twenty to twenty-five people have been killed or simply ‘disappeared,’ either on [Ervil LeBaron’s] direct command or under orders he left before he died."   Ervil wrote a murder list that still exists today.  I haven't found it, but it is noted in the book and elsewhere. see:  Ervil_LeBaron for more info.
 * Additionally none of the sources you have supplied have refer to Benjamin LeBaron as the leader of "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times". They call him a Community activist in Colonia LeBaron, and call Colonia LeBaron a "Community" not a sect.  They never tie say that "Colonia LeBaron" is the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times" as there are members of several sect in that town, and the existence of the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times" as a "sect" is in doubt.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 19:15, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * cmt - ARTEST, owing to the circumstance that I have never said Benjamin was leader of Fulness of Times leader, I regret that your comment makes no sense to me. Sorry. (Can you provide a diff link? Thanks.)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:10, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I'm confused, but it seems like a number of sources that have been added were all about the death of Benjamin LeBaron. They are first used as justification for stating that the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times" as a sect is still in existence.  However, when you read them, that is not what the sources say, so I changed it to citing that the town of "Colonia LeBaron" still exists.  If I'm reading it wrong, I'm sorry.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 20:21, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Additionally none of the sources you have supplied have refer to Benjamin LeBaron as the leader of "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times". They call him a Community activist in Colonia LeBaron, and call Colonia LeBaron a "Community" not a sect.  They never tie say that "Colonia LeBaron" is the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times" as there are members of several sect in that town, and the existence of the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times" as a "sect" is in doubt.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 19:15, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * ARTEST, you never respond to Professor Bennion's fully documented tome about "Mormons" (i.e., both mainstream and Fulness of Times) as well Mennonites in Chihuahua. Why?--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:37, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * cmt - ARTEST, owing to the circumstance that I have never said Benjamin was leader of Fulness of Times leader, I regret that your comment makes no sense to me. Sorry. (Can you provide a diff link? Thanks.)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:10, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * This is off topic, but just as Julian is a CoftheFirstborn blah blah blah Fulness of Times today, certainly Benjamin  was in the past. (In any case, ARTEST, perhaps you recall that B. LeBaron gained fame for, among other things, being a public point man for the fundie community regarding such things as coordinating demonstrations at the state capitol in Chihuahua, Chihuahua--which included particiapation by mainstream LDS from Col. Juarez, Chihuahua and environs, CoftheFirstborners (ersatz-"Mormons" religiously holding mainstream LDS as being in heresy from tenets of Joseph Smith junior, Brigham Young and John Taylor...) from LeBaron, Chihuahua, and Mennonites from their nearby enclave also in Chihuahua.) B. LeBaron gained fame for, among other things, being a public point man for the fundie community regarding such things as coordinating demonstrations at the state capitol in Chihuahua, Chihuahua (which included particiapation by mainstream LDS from Col. Juarez, Chihuahua and environs, CoftheFirstborners (ersatz-"Mormons" religiously holding mainstream LDS as being in heresy from tenets of Joseph Smith junior, Brigham Young and John Taylor) from LeBaron, Chihuahua, and Mennonites from their nearby enclave also in Chihuahua.  That said, a diff you appear to reference above would be here: diff.  Let's try and find common ground here as reasonably intelligent contributors (in my case; extraordinarily in yours, smiles. Surly it's obviously the atty gen reference is in error since the Fulness of Times isn't guilty of murders and, per Bennion, the Fulness of Times remained an ongoing entity beyond the Ervil assassinations.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:37, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe that the page as it is, is the best representation of the situation. It is clearly cited, both as possibley being in existence, and possibly not.  It leaves the existence as possible.  I did adjust it to make it clear that the murders in the 1980 were done by members of the "Church of the Lamb of God" not the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times", but that is the reason the continued existence of the sect is in doubt, by the Utah Attorney General’s Office and Arizona Attorney General's Offices and Chynoweth, Rena (1990) The Blood Covenant.
 * What in particular do you have problems with, the way it's written now? I have no issues modifying it.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk)
 * I think the attys gen citation should be removed altogether, owing to the fact that professional journalists' and scholars' opinions should trump anonymous functionaries merely copying from old versions of Wikipedia! This citation neglects to distinguish between the LeBaron group's major sect and its minor sect founded by the infamous Ervil LeBaron, unfortunately is extremely misleading. Here is a translated 2003 op-ed page piece from El Universal that helps to fill in the full picture. I.e., individuals of the LeBaron group's "parent sect" members were assassinated __BY__(!) members of Ervil's short-lived, "daughter sect"; thus, Wikipedia's having formerly claimed (which the attys gen citation then mirrored) that members of the parent sect were guilty of murders is controversial, despite arguments concerning whether Ervil's assassins were at the time excommunicated from the parent sect, and would appear violate the principles of the project. Also, per the preponderance of the sources (and all reliable sources), Fulness of Times sect members and their communal property within the LeBaron group's colony in Chihuahua (e.g., so many with the surnames LeBaron, Widmar, and the sect's chapel) never discontinued affiliation with the original LeBaron sect.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:21, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry I cannot agree. You keep saying thing like "professional journalists' and scholars' opinion" say this sect still exists.  Yet every report I have seen on the people who live in the Colonia LeBaron community never once call it the "Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times".
 * The last citation you say it say it is still a sect was from 2004 (i.e. the one you provided) Bennion, and I have asked for a page number. I still don't see it.
 * Books like The Blood Covenant (1990), Daughter of the Saints: Growing Up in Polygamy (2004), Hidden Treasures of Ancient American Cultures (2005) and the Attorney Generals say the group splintered. The most resent news reports do not call them a sect, they call them a community, and that community is made up of several sects.  I have yet to see any citation that show what you claim (i.e. Fulness of Times sect members and their communal property within the LeBaron group's colony in Chihuahua).--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 20:58, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

While it seems to me that moved closer and closer to what you want (i.e. the sect exists), you and I still can't agree on wording so I have requested a Third opinion. I have read and re-read everything you have provided and haven't seen anything that backs what you claim. If you provided a page number for Bennion, perhaps it would help. If you remove the attys gen citation, even though it is a WP:RS, you are giving defacto existence to this sect, when there is inconstant evidence it is still around. I am fine with the current version as is. It leave both possibles open.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk)
 * A "strawman" mantra along the lines of "Colonia LeBaron is not identical with ChoftheFBoftheFoT" is a red herring: The Vatican isn't identical with Catholicism, Salt Lake City with Mormonism, nor Independence MO with the Community of Christ, either. It requires a torturous reading of the sources to believe that Fulness of Times disappeared in the 1980s only for it to have then reappeared in time for it to exist for the numerous subsequent citations. You don't bother to provide your reading of Bennion to explain how in the heck she could not believe the denom in question predominant in the LeBaron colony.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:04, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

AUB connection
Per Bennion, Fulness of Times sect branched from Apostolic United Brethren; however, despite Joel history of affiliation with Allred, et al, Joel himself had claimed independent authority to promote his own branch of Latter Day Saint polygamists. (If my memory serves me correctly, some ancestor of Joel's was said to have received such authority back in Nauvoo or some such.) An asterisk should be included that explains for the sect in this article's own conceptions of primogeniture/chain of authority.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:06, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Again I cannot agree. The LDS Church claims that they the only legitimate Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints) but only with a name change.  We don't let them get away with that claim as the consensus is that there was a Succession crisis (Latter Day Saints) and several sects have a legitimate claim.  This is no different here.  There are plenty of sources citing that Joel was in the ABU, broke with them and started this sect.  By definition, that is a Schism.  His justification or claims of authority are not what creates the Schism, its what group he broke from.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 20:48, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Most apologetically I only suggest work some editors might do to source the LeBaron group's divergent (from that of the majority of Mormon-fundamentalists') claims w/rgd chains of authority, sorry if my quick suggestion was interpreted otherwise (as I'm sure we both remain neutral on WP about any such claims merits, of course !)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:52, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Again, the Fulness of Times's UAB connection is touched on by Bennion. However, the asterisk Wiktionary -- "(sports, US) A blemish in an otherwise outstanding achievement. They came into the tournament highly ranked, but with a little bit of an asterisk as their last two wins had been unconvincing." referencing Fulness of Times's own claims of lineage can be sourced here (Priesthood Expounded: The Principles of Succession in Priesthood Authority and the True Pattern of Priesthood Government, by William P. Tucker (1956; revised in 1988 and 1990).--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 19:46, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The LDS sects page says, albeit without a source, the Cofthe1stborn/FulnessofTimes claim lineage through Benjamin F. Johnson of the Council of Fifty.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:45, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
 * And here is this: "[...T]he Prophet commissioned his close Friend, adopted Son and brother-in-law, Benjamin F. Johnson, to appoint his Birthright Heir among the sons of one of his sisters[ .. ]." -- church-of-the-firstborn.org/about/historical-background --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:13, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I've decided to add some version of the following copy and paste from the WP Benjamin J. bio page."In 1955, the LeBaron Family, who form the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, a Mormon fundamentalist sect headquartered in northern Mexico, by claimed priesthood authority through Benjamin.Janet Bennion (2004). Desert Patriarchy: Mormon and Mennonite Communities in the Chihuahua Valley (Tucson: University of Arizona Press) ISBN 0-8165-2334-7Brian C. Hales (2006). Modern Polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalism: The Generations After the Manifesto (Salt Lake City, Utah: Greg Kofford Books) ISBN 1-58958-035-4"--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:18, 24 February 2016 (UTC)


 * 1) Bennion, Polygamy in Primetime: Media, Gender, and Politics in Mormon Fundamentalism, 2012: "...Dayer LeBaron aligned himself with Rulon Allred...." LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 19:32, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) See footnote here: LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 16:39, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) "After he (alma) died, two of his seven sons, Joel and Ervil, and their mother, Maud, plus a few others were baptized into the Allred group. A branch of the group was established in Colonia LeBaron...." LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 16:54, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) An insider's treatment authored Thomas J. Liddiard (2011): id=UBb2niJ0G4QC&dq=%22Church+of+the+Firstborn+of+the+Fulness+of+Times%22&source=gbs_navlinks_s LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 17:15, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Oxford Univ. Press LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 17:42, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) Daughter of the Saints: Growing Up in Polygamy by Dorothy Allred Solomon (2004) LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 18:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Third opinion
wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.


 * Viewpoint by ARTEST4ECHO: Currently the Current status section references three sources, the Utah Attorney General’s Office and Arizona Attorney General's Office, Bennion, Janet and Chynoweth, Rena. The Attorney General’s and Chynoweth indicated the this sect splintered and it's status is unknown as of 2010.  According to Bennion (per Hodgdon's secret garden as I can't find it), this sect was active as of 2004.  I am happy with the way it is written now.  It references both and leave the possibility of the sect still existing, but doesn't contradict the Attorney General’s and Chynoweth.  It seems that Hodgdon's, thinks that the Attorney General’s is not reliable and should be removed.  To me this give the sect defacto existence when there is no evidence it dose, as the Bennion reference isn't clear as no page number has been supplied.  In a nut shell, I think it should be left alone.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 20:13, 15 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Viewpoint by (name here): ....


 * Third opinion by ONUnicorn: ....
 * we need a tie breaker opinion for this article, folks.... --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 23:29, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

The Church of the Firstborn in the Fullness of Times still exists and is still functioning. With more than a thousand members of all age groups, it's not going anywhere. Source: my own eyes Lobbynoise (talk) 06:50, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Tiebreaker
 * Thanks!--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:44, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Rgdg new LeBaron group
See eg COMMONNAME. Note that whereas many sources mention the LeBaron polygamist group's continuing existence, some of these in fact doubt whether the group's would-be parent sect (viz., the - Fulness of Times) is extant.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:22, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * (Of course, readers of this talkpage know that Bennion believes a Chihuahua-centered "LeBaron-group" sub-sect split from its mother sect in the 1990s, which is located somewhere "down the road" from the settlement of Colonia LeBaron....)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 19:42, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Again, there is no "Of course" here. None of the sources you supply bring this sect up to past 2004, even assuming you are correct.  You haven't supplied a page number and I'm not going to read an entire book to find it.  Just because you don't like the cited source (Utah and Arizona Attorney General’s Offices) in 2010 doesn't make it less valid.  I suggest you respond to the request for third opinion, so a third party can comment.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 20:16, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * WTF. YOU NEVER READ IT?? From a review of Bennion in BYU Studies:"'The study begins with a historical overview of the colonies. Bennion's descriptions of the Colonia Juarez and Colonia LeBaron are vivid and astute, deftly placing the movements into the historical context of the Mormon experience in America and tracing its roots back to Loren C. Woolley's split from the mainstream church and establishment of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Drawing from extensive interviews with family members from different factions of the LeBaron family, Bennion constructs a thorough and sympathetic history of the volatile and at times violent LeBaron colony." Not just you, ARTEST but in general: Why do so many WPdians almost brag about disinclinations to pursue in-depth cited texts on subjects they would hope to pontificate? Geez.) Sighs! In the current case, the Bennion monograph is thin with only a third w/rgd the LeBarons and 2/3 about mainstream LDS Chihuahuan colonies or Chihuahuan Mennonites. Be back w/ a pg count. (Also, ARTEST kvetches about a dearth of cited sources in this present WP article more recent than 2004. Well, folks, the infamous attys gen citation doesn't even attempt to disguise its sourcing from earlier-posted WP edits: identical, in-passing statements about both the Fulness in Times and the actually dwindling subsect founded by Ervil. The former case was in error, however owing to the fact that the Fulness of Times sect is still extant post the the '80s.)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:14, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * OK. Admittedly WPdians would need to skim through The New Yorker-style (lol), long-form writing: i.e., a few score of very large generous-layout printed printed pages (perhaps four of which would fill up one page in The New Yorker...!) in search of pertinent info w/rgd the LeBaronites. Again, here again is the Google Books link. Desert Patriarchy, pp. 31-70, 121-142.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:38, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The settlement of Col. LeBaron started by Dayer LeBaron has 280 members. See Journal of Mormon History, p. 216 link. "In the mid-1930s, Dayer LeBaron settled an area south of Colonia Juarez[...]known as 'Colonia LeBaron.' Today, more than 280 Mormon fundamentalist polygamists call it home. In providing a brief history of the Mormon fundamentalist movement, Bennion reports some details that may reflect fundamentalist tradition more than historical accuracy, in part because, 'chameleonlike, LeBaron's history changes its colors depending on who is relating it' (54)."--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:02, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

"Plural marriage"
I objected to "plural marriage" because it's WP:JARGON. It would be acceptable to say "polygyny, which in Mormonism is commonly called 'plural marriage'", but otherwise it's obfuscational. It's hard enough to keep terminology straight - maybe you are more familiar with Mormonism and know the slang, but to the average reader it's like "what marriage?!?!".

By the way, thanks for fixing that link, you are correct that it is specifically polygyny. I'm not sure why the linked page is "Mormonism and polygamy" given that it's only ever polygyny; you never hear of Himalayan-style polyandry, which honestly confuses me given that polyandry is common in areas where there is an excess of men and a shortage of resources. Ogress smash! 17:30, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * First, I'm not complaining with the way it is and have no plans to change it.
 * I don't really think it is WP:JARGON. It more of a "religious title" for a doctrine, than anything.  For example, the term Communion is also called the "Eucharist" by a number of Christian churches.  The LDS Church calls it the "Sacrament".  However, if asked him about the "Eucharist" he would have no idea what you mean.  To call the LDS use of the religious title "Sacrament" WP:JARGON and insist that the Article refer to it as "Communion" or the "Eucharist" is incorrect.  It the same here.  The LDS Church, and those Fundamentalist sects that broke from it, have always (since 1852) called it "plural marriage", not "Pologmay" or "Polygyny".  So I really think this is a case where insisting that a Sect use the generic term for a belief they hold, really isn't appropriate, nor do I think it is WP:JARGON.
 * However, I admit that all of this is only my opinion. I don't think this have ever had a discussion before, so there is no real consensus.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 18:09, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Another example I thought of is, you wouldn't insist on the LDS Church calling it's leader a "Pope", when they use the term "President of the Church" instead. OI get that non-Mormons would have no idea what that means, but this it the name for what they call their leader.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 21:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * We aren't talking about the pope, we're talking about polygyny. The pope is sufficiently well-known to let us use the word "pope"; sacrament is also familiar. "Plural marriage" sounds like gibberish to those outside the general Mormon sphere. We should stick to "polygyny"; Wikipedia's articles do aside from aside mentions of the term. Ogress smash! 23:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Recent citations of CoFBoFoT
--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:41, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) "...Colonia LeBaron—the headquarters of Joel's Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times since 1956. Local author Ruth Wariner was the 39th child born to the late prophet Joel. Her forthcoming memoir, The Sound of Gravel, ...." - Portland Mercury (link)

Misinformation w/rgd nonpayment to kidnappers
& also w/rgd kidnappers' identities (from [Google-translation of] this news article):"... The victim was taken to a place of captivity located in the Baqueteros ranch and then demanded the sum of one million dollars in ransom. Then they changed the figure of 3 million pesos and finally accepted the amount of 252 thousand dollars to be delivered at kilometer 20 of the road to Flores Magon. Once released, Erick LeBaron, the July 7, 2009, around 1:30 pm, entered the town of Galeana an armed group of 10 individuals and 'rose' Benjamin LeBaron and his brother Luis Carlos Widmar Sttubs.  hile the gunmen managed to wound Siegfried Widmar Sttubs, brother of Luis Carlos, but this managed to escape aboard his truck.  The gunmen then fled the scene with Benjamin and Luis Carlos and at the junction known as 'tabs' of Flores Magon Casas Grandes-road, both were executed. ..."--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 19:36, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times be merged into LeBaron group as it would appear Joel LeBaron's 1stbornoftheFulnessofTimes is the formal designation and rubric remaining regardless of the acknowledged tensions among its various sub-schisms arisen since Joel's death. There might be room for an article about the historical LeBaron community prior to Joel (a la "Short Creek Community" as the precurson to "Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" etc.). Note that the other much-noted LeB. sect, the Church of the Lamb of God founded by Ervil LeB., currently is but an historical footnote. Thus the proposed merger would align the LeB. treatment with that given other "Mormon Fundamentalist" groups. (I/e most have individuals living somewhat among them who are minimally or largely aligned with them but who are perhaps technically independent, their having been excommunicated or having not accepted the authority of whatever more-generally reigning patriarch/authorities.
 * "'The sociopolitical structure of LeBaron is based on the rules and structures established in the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, which was set up in 1955 by Joel LeBaron. It is also based on the codes of behavior established in the United Apostolic Brethren, or UAB (the Allred group), which has had the largest impact on the construction of LeBaron social life. Although Joel is dead (killed by his brother Ervil), this formal structure is still the blueprint followed by most members of the congregation.'"--Desert Patriarchy, p126, by Janet Bennion (2004) See LINK. (Yet note that here is a link to a series of quotes from the Bennion book about controversies regarding who might most rightly possess founder/patriarch Joel's mantle within the LeBaron religious community.)
 * "'Mormon fundamentalists today may be roughly divided into four groups based upon the line of priesthood authority to which they subscribe. Up to 90% proclaim ties to Loren C. Woolley's 1886 ordinations. A much smaller group have embraced the LeBaron teachings and the authority they profess. In addition, there are 'independents' who express less concern regarding formal lines of priesthood authority, placing emphasis on sincerity and personal revelation in forming new polygamous unions. A fourth group exists with very colorful characters, each proclaiming his own legitimacy.'"--Modern Polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalists, p433, by Brian C. Hales (2006) See LINK --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 17:55, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Extent of practice of polygamy w/in the Ch/Firstborn (ie the LeBaron religious community)

 * 1) "Some men in Colonia LeBaron and surrounding towns continue to follow what early Mormon prophets called "the Principle," marrying multiple wives and having dozens of children, though the custom here is fading. Polygamy was banned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the official Mormon Church, in 1890. The Mormon community based in Colonia LeBaron, numbering about 1,000, has one motel, two grocery stores and lots of schools." -- WaPo--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 19:17, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) "...Colonia LeBaron, a community of 1,000 who follow what they hold to be a bedrock Mormon faith.... " "...the men of the LeBaron clan were ex-communicated more than 60 years ago for their insistence on maintaining plural wives. Many younger members have since discontinued the practice of polygamy." --Houston Chronicle LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 16:03, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Elsewhere

 * 1) "Janet Bennion, Desert patriarchy: Mormon and Mennonite communities in the Chihuahua Valley, Univ. of Arizona Press (2004): p127, "The Church of the Firstborn grew quickly and established colonies in San Diego and Baja, Mexico...."

San Antonio Nuevo in the Yucatan
in "Free and Sovereign State of Chiapas"--- of the United States of Mexico
 * -w/in Ocozocoautla de Espinosa

from google translate: --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:17, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Los Molinos, Baja

 * 1) google search: "los molinos" lebaron LINK.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:22, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Cult Insanity: A Memoir of Polygamy, Prophets, and Blood Atonement by Irene Spencer (2009) LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 17:03, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Cane Beds, AZ
"Just under eight miles southeast of Short Creek is an area called Cane Beds, Arizona. There lives Ross LeBaron Jr., a descendant of another polygamous sect (separate from the FLDS but quite similar in practice) called the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times. He shares a last name and a not-too-distant relation with the polygamous LeBaron group in Chihuahua, Mexico." LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 15:51, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Ross Lebaron Jr. lives in southern Utah not far from Cedar City. I've seen his house, but not met him. He was not a follower of his father Ross Lebaron and instead was a member of the Church of the Firstborn in the Fullness of Times. He was actually a Bishop in that church. Source? Personal knowledge. --Lobbynoise (talk) 06:37, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

El Paso
LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 17:50, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

The Ch/Firstborn's onging succession crises

 * 1) "In the early 1970s, Benji's grandfather Joel LeBaron and great-uncle Ervil LeBaron fell into a bitter feud over leadership of the clan's Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times." ... Houston Chronicle LINK--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 15:56, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) "Janet Bennion, Desert patriarchy: Mormon and Mennonite communities in the Chihuahua Valley, Univ. of Arizona Press (2004) p126 "The sociopolitical structure of LeBaron is based on the rules and structures established in the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, which was set up in 1955 by Joel LeBaron. It is also based on the codes of behavior established in the United Apostolic Brethren, or UAB (the Allred group), which has had the largest impact on the construction of LeBaron social life. Although Joel is dead (killed by his brother Ervil), this formal structure is still the blueprint followed by most members of the congregation."  LINK. p54: "Rivalry and tensions run thick in LeBaron, especially among the descendants of the sons of Verlan, Alma, Ben, Ervil, and Joel." p59: "After the death of Ervil and Joel and the hospitalization of Ben, Verlan assumed the leadership of the Church of the Firstborn. At present, the offspring of Verlan, Alma, Floren, And Joel LeBaron are still quarelling over who has the rightful aughority to hold the mantle...." LINK p138: "The major rift that occurred during the 1990s between a liberal faction [...of the Church of the Firstborn] and a strictly conservative group, who moved down the road and continue to practice a more communal-based religious system based on the notion of a living prophet...."--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 16:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) "Janet Bennion, Desert patriarchy: Mormon and Mennonite communities in the Chihuahua Valley, Univ. of Arizona Press (2004) p126 "The sociopolitical structure of LeBaron is based on the rules and structures established in the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, which was set up in 1955 by Joel LeBaron. It is also based on the codes of behavior established in the United Apostolic Brethren, or UAB (the Allred group), which has had the largest impact on the construction of LeBaron social life. Although Joel is dead (killed by his brother Ervil), this formal structure is still the blueprint followed by most members of the congregation."  LINK. p54: "Rivalry and tensions run thick in LeBaron, especially among the descendants of the sons of Verlan, Alma, Ben, Ervil, and Joel." p59: "After the death of Ervil and Joel and the hospitalization of Ben, Verlan assumed the leadership of the Church of the Firstborn. At present, the offspring of Verlan, Alma, Floren, And Joel LeBaron are still quarelling over who has the rightful aughority to hold the mantle...." LINK p138: "The major rift that occurred during the 1990s between a liberal faction [...of the Church of the Firstborn] and a strictly conservative group, who moved down the road and continue to practice a more communal-based religious system based on the notion of a living prophet...."--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 16:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Martyrdoms at the hands of schismed sect members with the Church of the Lamb of God
From Under the Banner of Heaven: "'Both Ervil and Joel were imbued with exceptional charisma—and both claimed to be the 'one mighty and strong.' It was therefore inevitable, perhaps, that the LeBaron brothers would eventually clash. . . . On August 20, 1972, in the polygamist settlement of Los Molinos [Mexico], which Joel had established eight years earlier on the Baja Peninsula, he was shot in the throat and head, fatally, by a member of the group loyal to Ervil. 'After he ordered the death of Joel, Ervil initiated a divinely inspired series of murders, resulting in the killing of at least five additional people through 1975 and the wounding of more than fifteen others. In March 1976 he was arrested for these crimes and held in a Mexican jail, . . . 'Less than a year after he was incarcerated, Ervil was let out of jail. . . . Within a few months of his release, he had a disobedient daughter killed, and shortly after that arranged the murder of Rulon Allred (leader of a rival polygamist group), whose followers Ervil coveted and hoped to convert to his own group, the Church of the Lamb of God.'"--Under the Banner of Heaven, by Jon Krakauer, p. 266--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Alternative forms of referencing sect
Note: Although it's true that Joel LeBaron, founder of the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, "was the leader of nearly all of the fundamentalist LeBarons" (see LINK, LINK, from "'To Set in Order the House of God': The Search for the Elusive 'One Mighty and Strong'," B Shepard, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, 2006), it also is true that there remained a scattering of the polygamist group founded by Joel's father, Alma Dayer LeBaron, Sr.'s, following some rival or another of Joel's (see "Utah Polygamy: 19th Century vs. Modern," R Jackson - History, 2012:"'Some of Alma’s sons later claim he passed the authority on to them. This lead to three churches being made by the different sons; The Church of the Firstborn in the Fullness of Times, The Church of the Firstborn[, Hodgdon: founded in 1955 by Ross Wesley LeBaron LINK, see p40 ], and The Church of the Lamb of God. Each of the brothers that started these churches claim they received the birthright from their father.'"In any case, our WP article at present doesn't go into such nuances. Whereas technically there is a "Church of the Firstborn" founded by a brother of Jeol's, this is also the shortened form of Joel's Church of the Fistborn of the Fulness of Times. As for sourcing what WP should call the LeBaron community, cf. the sources following.
 * LeBaron ("group," etc.)
 * 1) " ...the LeBaron order, formally known as the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times..." The Polygamy Question, by Janet Bennion and Lisa Fishbayn Joffe, University Press of Colorado, 2016, p62 LINK

(shortened form) --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * "Church of the Firstborn"
 * 1) "Ervil LeBaron had the help of four brothers in setting up the Church of the Firstborn. But he broke with them over land policies, and established the Church of the Lamb of God." - Obituary: "Ervil LeBaron, Utah Polygamist, is found dead in his prison cell," United Press International, August 17, 1981 LINK
 * 2) "...held by the Church of the Firstborn. This church ... " - Kahlile B. Mehr, "The Trial of the French Mission," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 21, no. 3 (Autumn 1988) LINK
 * 3) "...three wayward members of the Church of the Firstborn were murdered in Texas..." - RM Otto,  "Wait 'Til Your Mothers Get Home: Assessing The Rights of Polygamists As Custodial and Adoptive Parents," Utah L. Rev., 1991 - LINK
 * 4) " ... Ervil LeBaron, leader of the Church of the Lamb of God, ordered several members of the Church of the Firstborn—from which he had seceded—as well as other Mormon fundamentalists and members of his own group to be killed..." - "Cults, violence and religious terrorism: an international perspective," JF Mayer - Studies in Conflict and Terrorism, 2001 LINK

Spanish language media

 * 1) google translate: "At present three churches that founded the LeBaron family still in effect: Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Time and the other formed by the sons of Alma Dayer, Wesley and Alma Ross LeBaron." from Omnia.com.mx here: http://www.omnia.com.mx/noticias/lebarones-crearos-sus-propias-doctrinas-religiosas-se-pelearo-muerte-el-liderazgo/ --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) google transl.: "...Ervil LeBaron['s] son Aaron LeBaron...continued violent practices of his father and was sentenced in 1997 by a Houston court.... The other three sons of Alma Dayer LeBaron were also presented as prophets chosen by God to restore the true Mormonism. Benjamin prophet proclaimed in 1944. At first his brothers supported him, but soon began to show signs of mental disturbance and spent the rest of his life in and out of psychiatric institutions. Another brother, Ross Wesley prophet also proclaimed with the title "Mighty and Strong" coming to bring order in the House of God had prophesied Joseph Smith, and passed as heir to the patriarchal authority that his father he had received from Benjamin Jonson. Wesley Ross still has a small following in Utah. The youngest brother, Alma LeBaron, continued as bishop of the Church of the Firstborn, but aroused the opposition of the parishioners how to take control of economic affairs and eventually left the group and founded his own church. It now appears that remain only three of the churches that emerged from the LeBaron family: [Joel's] the Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Time and small churches led by Ross Wesley and Alma [jr]." from Universidad Autónoma de Ciudad Juárez website here: http://sirio.uacj.mx/UEHS/Paginas/Lebarones.aspx --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:35, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Q.: Fred Collier, Tom Green and/or Robert Black groups independent?
As per this link at LDSMovement.PBWorks.com, ought WP consider the Tom Green or Robert Black's polygamist family groups independent or organizationally distinct from their Ross Wesleyan parent church of the Firstborn?--24.115.71.222 (talk) 21:23, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Misc. quotes:
 * 1) " Initially Tom Green and Robert Black and Fred Collier each claimed that they were the new leaders." [ie, of the "Ross Wesleyen" church of the Firstborn) sect--Hodgdon] - LINK
 * 2) Per Janet Bennion (LINK), all three are independents.--24.115.71.222 (talk) 21:32, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Context of lineage
From Fred Collier's (archived at Archive.com) Church of the Firstborn website: "... ... As established by the Prophet, the Church of the FirstBorn was an inner Church of the Elect — it was the Celestial Family Kingdom of Joseph Smith and the beginnings of the Restoration of the tribe of Ephraim. It was an organization composed of the Prophet’s Adopted Sons who had received the Higher Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel, as taught and administered in the private meetings of the Holy Order and Council of Fifty — and hence the Fifty Princes171 of the Kingdom.172 ... ..." -- LINK --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:36, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Membership estimate
Also see discussion here: Talk:List of sects in the Latter Day Saint movement.--Hodgson-Burnett&#39;s Secret Garden (talk) 20:00, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Estimates for members of both churches are in well excess of 1000. Members of the Church live in North Dakota, Minnesota, Alaska, Utah, California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas to name a few states. Any census of Colonia Lebaron would only take into account members living in Lebaron and not elsewhere. Most members don't live in Colonia Lebaron. My source? My own eyes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lobbynoise (talk • contribs) 22:38, 14 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Thankyou so much, Lobbynoise. --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 00:09, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

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"Victimizations"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Firstborn_(LeBaron_order)#Victimizations_by_Juarez_narcoterrorists_(2000s)

This seems to violate the principal of Neutral POV? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.148.24.217 (talk) 14:14, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

us citizens?
Do all these folks really meet the residency requirements to pass on citizenship across multiple generations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gjxj (talk • contribs) 12:51, 6 November 2019 (UTC). If both parents are US and one resided in US before the child's birth the child is US.
 * They are US dual citizens often from being born in maternity wards Stateside to at least 1, often both, parents dual US citizens likewise.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 01:49, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

News quotes

 * 1) NYT: "When the LeBaróns first arrived in Mexico, they practiced polygamy, but that has now largely faded from the community, the family says. The Church of Latter-day Saints prohibits the practice. It has also abandoned the name Mormon, while the LeBaróns continue to use it."
 * 2) NBC News: "Over the years, members of the extended LeBaron family have spread throughout northern Mexico as well as into Arizona and Utah, according to Matthew Bowman, a historian and author of 'The Mormon People: The Making of an American Faith.'"--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 01:50, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
 * 3) BBC: "There is an important distinction to be drawn, explains Dr [Cristina] Rosetti, between surnames and religious affiliation. 'Independent Mormons have been marrying LeBaróns, and vice versa, for generations,' she clarified on Twitter. 'There are three distinct Churches that fall under "LeBarónism".' The majority of Mormons living in Mexico are members of the Church of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), but those in La Mora are mostly independent, Dr Rosetti said. [...] Their adherence to polygamy has slowly been phased out, although some still practise it. Most have dual citizenship and travel back and forth to the US freely and frequently. 'When you say Mormon, it is a very big umbrella term that covers lots of families,' says Dr Cristina Rosetti. 'The fundamentalists are a big umbrella, and so are the LeBaróns.'"--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 19:23, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Church of the Firstborn (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:33, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

This article's title...
--seems apropos. Note that throughout Liveright Publishing's this year's (2002) The Colony: Faith and Blood in a Promised Land, Sally Denton uses the Church of the Firstborn as her catchall (for example, page 116: "[...I]nto 2021, the offspring of Joel, Ervil, Verlan, and Alma Dayer Jr --their sons and grandsons -- were still battling over who had the rightful authority to hold the leadership of the Church of the Firstborn...."). --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 13:49, 14 October 2022 (UTC)