Talk:Ciarán of Saigir

Ciaran disambig suggests that "Saighir" simply means "the Elder", not a placename taking the genitive. Anyone know Gaelic? -LlywelynII (talk) 17:10, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Saighir is just another name for Seir Kieran, a monastic site in Clareen, County Offaly, founded in the 5th century by St. Ciarán. There are multiple Irish saints named Ciarán, the two most prominent being Ciarán of Clonmacnoise and Ciarán of Saigir (or Seirkieran) with the latter assumed to be the elder one of these two. But most commonly the saints are distinguished by the sites they have founded.--AFBorchert (talk) 13:14, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "Saighir" is simply the name of St. Ciarán's primary hermitage, on the northwest slopes of the Slievebloom mountains. It later grew in importance as the episcopal see of all Osraige and the royal burial grounds for many of the Ossorian kings.  Viking raids reduced it, and the eventually the cathedra was relocated to Aghaboe and later to Kilkenny.  But the epithen "the Elder" is given to this St. Ciarán in the Irish word "Sen", to distinguish him from other Ciarans, especially from the founder of nearby Clonmacnoise.  So he is sometimes called Sen-Chiaráin- the Elder Ciarán.Ri Osraige (talk) 20:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

St. Pirran
While it's certainly not proven that the Cornish Pirran, and either Irish Kieran, was the same person, it does seem to be overstepping the mark to call the theory "erroneous". A considerable variety of (referenced) material and diversity of view appears on the St. Pirran page, for example:

Views from modern scholars Charles Plummer suggested that Piran might, instead, be identified with Saint Ciarán of Clonmacnoise, who founded the monastery of Clonmacnoise also in County Offaly but this is doubtful since this saint is believed to have died of yellow fever at the age of thirty-two and was traditionally buried at Clonmacnoise. His father is, however, sometimes said to have been a Cornishman. Joseph Loth, moreover, has argued, on detailed philological grounds, that the two names could not possibly be identical. G. H. Doble thought that Piran was a Welshman from Glamorgan, citing the lost chapel once dedicated to him in Cardiff. David Nash Ford accepts the Ciarán of Clonmacnoise identification, whilst further suggesting that Piran's father in the Exeter life, Domuel, be identified with Dywel ab Erbin, a 5th century prince of Dumnonia (Devon and Cornwall). The St Piran Trust has undertaken research which [1] has led them to the conclusion that Saint Piran was indeed Saint Ciarán of Saighir or perhaps a disciple, as indicated by Dr James Brennan of Kilkenny and Dr T. F. G. Dexter, whose thesis is held in the Royal Cornwall Museum. Oisinoc (talk) 12:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

St. Ciarán's Floruit
There is long-standing academic disagreement in the dating of the life of St. Ciarán of Saighir. Traditional Irish sources (his vitae, the Felire, etc.) ascribe his missionary activity as before St. Patrick, but assign no dates to his life. If true, he would have likely been born somewhere near the end of the 4th century and evangelizing in the 5th, and some writers can accept this (Plummer, Hogan, Kenny). Modern scholarship tends to view this with skepticism, (Bearing-Gould, Sharpe, O'Riain, Sperber) pushing his life back variously into the 5th and even 6th centuries, or hypothesizing that he didn't exist at all. We should present this lack of consesus, as there are no firm dates given in any sources; all references which give numbers ultimately derive from modern guesswork, with little substance supporting them. Ri Osraige (talk) 14:44, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Any firm year given for St. Ciaran's birth or death is pure invention. No source known gives any date; the closest we can speak about his life is by century, and in relation to other known historical figures.Ri Osraige (talk) 17:12, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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