Talk:Cicero/Archive 1

"no Tullius had been consul before him..."
This isn't true, is it? In book 2, chapter 19 of Livy's "The Rise of Rome" (or page 89. I have the T.J. Luce translation), it says that "Manius Tullius" was elected consul. Is this a different Tullius? If so, maybe it should be stated.--Heyitspeter 17:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC) Cicero was not born in Rome, but in an Italian city, in Arpinum, some 100 kilometres from Rome. The Italian cities received Roman citizenship during the last two centuries BC. When Manlius Tullius was elected consul (which year was it?), he certainly was an inhabitant of the (then very small) city of Rome. So these Tullii were probably not related.-- Would you kindly in the future sign your discussions to talk pages??! Tellervo 11:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed, sorry about that. I went back and signed it. I don't have the book in front of me right now (I'll go back and check a little later), but book 2 took place around 400 b.c.-ish (I believe that some non-Romans were sometimes elected consuls in Rome during this period) if my memory serves me. They probably aren't related, but it's possible that they were, and that this still did not benefit Cicero, since Livy says that Manius Tullius "did nothing of note". Again, I'll doublecheck, but I do think we should :eventually explicate this in the main page somehow.--Heyitspeter 17:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * According to wikipedia, there were two Tullius' elected consul before Cicero: one at 500BCE (the one I was remembering), and the other during 81BCE. Even if Cicero isn't related either of them, the assertion that "no Tullius had been consul before him" is false, and I will rephrase.--Heyitspeter 17:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that that sentence: "No Tullius had been consul before him" should be removed. So, - go on and do it!--Tellervo 20:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Hooray!!! haha. --Heyitspeter 05:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Does anyone know whether his name is properly pronounced with the c's making a k or s sound? Is it "Sissero" or "Kickero"?
 * To answer your question: Sissero. -JCarriker 22:42, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * That's not what I think, and indeed contradicts Latin pronunciation. Ncik 06 Apr 2005
 * Cicero is pronounced Sissero by modern people, though would have been pronounced Kikero by the Romans. Similarly, Virgil as Verjill, not Wirgillius. Kenneth Charles 00:15, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Both are defensible. The debate over the pronunciation of his name was part of a generational culture clash in Goodbye Mr. Chips. See here: . The key quote -- "Well, I admit that I don't agree with the new pronunciation. I never did. A lot of nonsense, in my opinion. Making boys say 'Kickero' at school when for the rest of their lives they'll say 'Cicero'-- if they ever say it at all." --Arcadian 15:27, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Cicero is pronounced 'Kickero' in Classical Latin, 'Chitchero' in Ecclesiastical Latin, and 'Sissero' in English and Modern Latin.--Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 02:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Removing [Kikero]
I guess that, from the above discussion, "[Kikero]" was put after Cicero's name to indicate its original Latin pronunciation. There seem to be several problems with doing it this way, and they all relate to Wikipedia's style guidelines:
 * First, to show pronunciation, one needs to use IPA characters, and in the proper format (see Manual of Style (pronunciation))
 * Second, showing how things were pronounced in Classical Latin is great; but the generally accepted pronunciation for speakers of English is with two [s] sounds. Ancient Greek and Roman names—even when they are spelled (or transliterated) the same way in English—are generally not pronounced in English the way they had been in the Latin and Greek of the period (sometimes they're not even close). There is a parallel set of pronunciation rules for pronouncing these names in English, which has evolved over time as the phonology of English has evolved. Actually, before modern times, scholars didn't even really know how Latin and Ancient Greek had been pronounced. What we know now has been reconstructed to some extent.
 * Third, the guidelines in Wikipedia state that English versions of people's names should be listed first when these are the most commonly used in English (see Naming conventions (use English)); by extension this can be understood to mean English "versions" of pronunciation also.

So if you think it's necessary to give the original Latin pronunciation, you should provide the standard English pronunciation first, indicating which is which. This would offer the most benifit to anyone reading the Wikipedia, especially for the large number of readers whose native language is not English and may never have heard the name "Cicero" spoken in English before.

(My note came out a little longer than I expected, so I apologize for the length.) S. Neuman 13:57, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The naming conventions you cite refer to article titles, not to content. The convention with Romans is to use the familiar English form as the title, but start the article with their actual name (for example, the article Mark Antony begins "Marcus Antonius... known in English as Mark Antony"). It follows that, in pronunciation as well as spelling, the accurate name should be given before the conventional one. I have changed it, and also corrected the stress - Latin stressed on the penultimate syllable. --Nicknack009 19:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * As I understand it, in classical Latin, a word of three or more syllables is stressed on the penultimate syllable if that syllable is long, and otherwise on the antepenultimate (e.g., Kennedy §9; I don't have a better grammar to hand). Since the only long syllable in Cicerō is the final one, shouldn't the stress fall on the first syllable? EALacey 20:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, you are correct. Brainmuncher 22:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Could someone work out how to include the following links without it breaking,

-- I believe those all point to: ftp://ftp.mirror.ac.uk/sites/metalab.unc.edu/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/
 * Cicero's Orations
 * Letters Of Marcus Tullius Cicero
 * Treatises On Friendship And Old Age

Texts:
 * Cicero's Orations
 * Letters of Marcus Tulius Cicero
 * Treatises on Friendship and Old Age.

You can sometimes link directly to the .txt file on the ftp site.. that's the way I'd do it.

In a couple of weeks, I'll launch an editing spree.

-Sam

---

Can someone get rid of all the Godzilla references? I'm pretty sure the greatest orator of Rome was not, as it states, a "reptile".

Additional source for Cicero's works
here -- in both latin and English

Titling
As per the "most common name" rule, this article should stay at "Cicero", and any other form, such as "Marcus Tullius Cicero", or even the "Tully" that used to be common in literature, should redirect to it. Stan 00:33, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Broken grammar
"Catiline fled but left behind his sent to a Gaulish tribe." Can someone who knows what actually happened correct that? :) -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 19:20, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Done - it was vandalism --Gangle 17:38, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

IPA
I've added IPA for English and classical Latin. Since the final "o" of Cicero is long, though, I suspect it should be [ˈkikeroː]. I doubt most people actually pronounce it this way, though. Thoughts? EldKatt (Talk) 19:39, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

You should probably stick with just plain Cicero -- not only is this the proper way to allude to him (in modern tongue, anyway), but it is also how anyone considering Cicero would look for him. For example, someone looking for Caesar would, following this assumption, turn to Kaesar, find kaisar, and end up with the wrong result.

-- Praetorbrutus praetorbrutus@yahoo.com


 * I'm not talking about renaming the article, only the phonetic transcriptions of the pronunciation in English and classical Latin that are already in the page. Also, since the Latin pronunciation is preceded by a "standard English pronunciation", I'm quite sure it won't confuse anyone. If none of this answers your query, then I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. EldKatt (Talk) 11:35, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Jewish Enemies?
According to almost every biography of Cicero, including Anthony Everett's recent book, Cicero and his brother Quintus were fleeing killers sent not by any Jewish enemies, but by the Second Triumvirate in general, and Antony in particular. Cicero had gained Antony's emnity through the rhetorical assault Cicero had laid on Antony through the Phillipics. Octavian (who counted Cicero as a supporter, if not an enthusiastic one) essentially lifted his protection and any opposition to Cicero's proscription as a deal that formed the Triumvirate. Pat Payne 19:32, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. of course, Cicero was not fleeing "Jewish enemies", and you are correct about Antony and the Second Triumvirate. The editor before you "vandalized" the article. Thanks for catching this and trying to fix it. I've reverted to the original "political enemies", which I think is better, rather than mentioning the Second Triumvirate here. The details of his pursuit and death are given in the article in the section titled "Opposition to Mark Antony, and death". &mdash; Paul August &#9742; 19:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, Cicero did once complain that his enemies were inciting the Jews of Rome against him. (Cicero, pro Flacco, 67, if anyone's interested.)   semper fictilis 01:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Incomplete clause
Under the section "Early Life", there is an incomplete sentence: "He built an extremely successful." Could someone who knows what Cicero built complete this phrase?

Footnote
The footnote about his name doesn't refer to anything in the text - the text instead points to a footnote when talking about the Battle of Pharsalus. Adam Bishop 05:12, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Source on the Augustus End Quote
Could we source (in an endnote) the Augustus end quote to the earliest extant text that it is contained in? (in the original Greek or Latin) This would be useful both for the integrity of the article and because I've been trying to (admittedly lazily) track it down for the last few days and I can't find it ...

I believe it came from Plutarch's biography of Cicero, but I'll have to double-check on that. It was in Anthony Everett's bio, so there may be a cite for it there to. I'll check when I get home from work. Pat Payne 15:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

It is from Plutarch's life of Cicero; I'm not sure if the actual quote is in Greek or Latin, but I'll grab a reference the next time I'm at the library and add it to the page.


 * Found it, and I will add the reference. Amphipolis 21:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Fictional Portrayals
I've removed the link to the HBO Rome character because that page now redirects here. If someone who watched the series and knows more of the real history than me wants to write a paragraph contrasting the way HBO portrayed him, that would be good. (Also, Colleen McCullough portrays him in a very opinionated way in her Masters_of_Rome series but claims that the orthodox view is that his peers found him very annoying.) Nick 02:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * From the works that I've read on him, his peers did tend to find his constant self-promotion a trifle irritating, particularly after his suppression of the Conspiracy of Catiline. He tended to continue to talk up his role ad nauseam. Pat Payne 02:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

More citations?
3 citations seems not enough for an article of this length. It's been a while since I translated Cicero (and yes, I called him "Kikero" in High School and College, and have now reverted to "Sisero", lo, these many years later :-), so most of my sources are buried in a box of college texts somewhere. I would think text for some of his speeches and his opposition to various folks might be found on the net. RainbowCrane 03:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * especially with sentences like "It is widely believed that Cicero supported homosexual brothels because he himself practiced homosexual intercourse on a regular basis". I distrust phrases like "it is widely believed", especially when they aren't cited. Personally, I never heard that, but I'm not omniscent either. Just saying, some sources would be good. Novium 16:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Quoting Haskell, H.J.:"This was Cicero"(1964) and Cicero´s letters ("Samtliga brev", a    Swedish translation.)   Tellervo Corrected my references. Tellervo 14:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have never read nor heard of Cicero having homosexual tendencies. Sex all in all seems to  have been a matter of minor interest to him.

Perseus and Writers of Research Papers
I myself am writing a research paper on the Catilinian Conspiracy and the ue of Perseus is completely impractical for me. I vote that although Perseus Project is great in some instances, a secondary link to a complete (one speech or book per page) edition be given also.--Agreatguy6 00:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

"anti-Judean sentiment"
I reverted the removal of the "anti-Judean sentiment" paragraph. If you want to re-remove, please explain why, either here or in the comments. Thanks! --Grahamtalk/mail/ e 02:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

___________________

I believe the first citation is a broken link. I am placing this comment in this section because the footnote is connected to and links from the "anti-Judean sentiment" section to show where the quote of Cicero complaining about the Jewish "mania" for gold comes from. 149.43.252.8 07:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC) Koko Wheelman

Copyedit
I have attempted to copyedit this article in the interests of clarity and consistency, (I am surprised that in its previous state it was given an A-rating by the self-appointed biography reviewers - quis custodiet ipsos custodienses?) but I cannot claim any expertise on Cicero. I am disturbed by the number of quotations in the article which ate not sourced - some from Cicero himself, others by commentators. Can anyone with the appropriate knowledge please provide the sources for these? Or else rewrite those from commentators?--Smerus 07:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

On the Return and Exile
In this section, the work Pro Mile suggests that Cicero delivered the speech in trial when in actuality he only worte the speech and never delivered it. It was afterwards sent to Milo by Cicero where Milo made a sarcastic comment about the Marseilles wines.

This is cited in the book, "From the Gracchi to Nero" by HH Scullard


 * He actually did deliver a speech for Milo, but the speech he gave was significantly watered down from the one he published, mostly due to intimidation from both (IIRC) Clodius' remaining partisans and from Pompey, who had come down hard on Milo. Pat Payne 14:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

"Cicero, who was defending Milo, for once in his forensic life, failed his client, intimidated on part by the troops with which Pompey had surrounded the court in order to counter the demonstration ofs of Clodius' supporters. Milo was condemned and went into exile at Massilia. When Cicero sent him a copy of the speech that he had meant to deliver, Milo ironically replied that he was glad the speech had not been made, since otherwise he would not have been enjoying the mullets of Massilia."(p.120)

HH Scullard, "From the Gracchi to Nero" Methuen and Co. New York 1982

Cicero´s exile in 58BC
I am very surprised at how the article is treating Cicero´s exile in 58-57 BC in Salonika. It was not a semi-exile, a leisurely time for Cicero to plan his new speeches but a horrible shock whitch put him in deep despair. Cicero, a man of extreme emotions hit the bottom this time. His banishment was made all the more painful by a law, also put forward by Clodius, that his property should be confiscated, - as it duly was.

His letters from that time are really painful reading. "Your pleas have prevented me from committing suicide. - My afflictions surpass anything you have earlier heard of."- and so on. The quotation is from a letter to Atticus.

88.112.127.206 15:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC) Tellervo

Cicero´s marriage to Publilia
When did it happen? Before Tullia´s death in February 45 BC as I happen to suppose, or after her death, what the previous editor supposes? In case he married her before Tullia´s untimely death,it is easier to understand, why the marriage had an abrupt end. The young bride had certainly difficulties in "competing" with Tullia about Cicero´s love and attention.88.112.127.206 19:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Tellervo 19:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * After Tullia's death, according to Everitt. "[Publilia] was said to be pleased that someone she had seen as a rival had been removed from the scene, and Cicero could not forgive this." (Everitt, p. 244) Whogue 07:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you identify this?
Can anyone decode this Cicero citation: "Cicero, l. c. 4, 5"? Paul August &#9742; 03:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think "l. c." is probably equivalent to "loc. cit." (locatio citato), meaning "same work as the previous citation". Could be either chapters 4 and 5 of whatever work was cited previously, or whichever work was cited in footnotes 4 and 5. --Nicknack009 11:27, 7  January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Nicknack, you are undoubtedly correct. Paul August &#9742; 16:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Cicero´s personal philosophy
Cicero´s political thoughts are treated within this article but not his personal stand in philosophy. It requires some discussion as Cicero has written also purely philosophical works, like De Amiticia and De Senectute. He is also known to modern readers and schoolchildren in the first place as a philosopher. Tellervo 10:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

What about dividing this page
As everyone probably knows, this article is overly long and has exceeded the recommended 32 KB. What about splitting it into two: 1. "Cicero´s life" and 2."Cicero´s political and philosophical thoughts and works"? Tellervo 10:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

A most terrible end ...
... for such a great man. Is there anyone who does not agree? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cicero IV (talk • contribs) 02:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

Linking in the lead
Does nearly every word in the lead have to be linked. Surely this is overkill? Brainmuncher 09:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Then get to work. Strip those links (some of them).
 * Curious that the second para contains no links at all. And rew D alby  13:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should start an experiment and link every word! Brainmuncher 09:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC) It is better to err on the side of LINKING EVERYTHING than to link only what is actually helpful.

B-Class?
How dare you let an article on Cicero dwell in the mediocrity of B-Class. Cicero himself would be very unhappy if he knew of this dishonour to his name. Come on, fiends! I say, get to work on the article and bring it up to Good Article, nay, Featured Article. I will throw you all into the river Tiber in a bag of dogs and snakes if you fail. Brainmuncher 09:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you serious? I was yesterday writing about the real lacks of this article, but it wanished
 * into thin air when I switched it to "show preview". The points were 1. the real problem of
 * this article is the lack of references especially in the first half of it. 2.secondly, it
 * looks and reads like patchwork due to many persons trying to add a little to it and nobody
 * looking at the whole. The third problem is the lead section, which should be expanded.
 * I agree with you, Cicero, is certainly worth a FA article! But my time is limited, I have to
 * earn a living. --Tellervo 17:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm willing to help bring this up to a Featured Article. After I finish copyediting the article, I'll make suggestions. I'll even find sources. Can you review this article so that we might have some framework to begin?


 * I'll ask for a peer-review later. Brainmuncher 03:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I am taking a short break from the computer, I am getting headache staring at the monitor.
 * Regards--Tellervo 08:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

What kind of ambush of the Allobroges?
This sentence does not make sense to me. Does anybody know, what really happened, and whose forces were in ambush? --Tellervo 18:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The conspirators tried to involve the Allobroges in the plot. Cicero found out, and the Allobroges were instructed to play along in order to get incriminating evidence. They got a written oath which they would take to their countrymen in Gaul. One Titus Volturcius was to go with them, to deliver a letter from the conspirator Lentulus to Catiline, who was with his army in Cisalpine Gaul, but Cicero was kept informed and sent two praetors, Flaccus and Pomptinus, to set a guard to lie in wait for them on them on the Milvian Bridge, arrest them and seize the letters. I've rewritten the paragraph in about as much detail as I think this article needs to go into, and provided refs. --Nicknack009 19:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you Nicknack009! --Tellervo 18:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Impact on Society?
There are 2, Octavian seeing his grandson with that book and being a righteous pagan, what of the impacts of his death? (short and long term) General opinion? consequences? Revered by? The article seems to have an abrupt stop at his death, someone of this importance must have had an impact. CAF51 03:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"Content to allow Caesar dead"
What did that anonymous chap mean by this? Anyway, Anthony's motives and policy at this situation is not clear to modern historians. He acted as an heir to Caesar, seizing his papers and treasury. Later he became a member of the Second Triumvirate and so on. I don´t think he wanted to strike on his own and seize power. Would someone revert this section, I am tired of reverting. --Tellervo 19:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 08:53, 19 April 2016 (UTC)