Talk:Cigarette Smoking Man/GA1

GA Review
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Hello. Overall, I think this article is a solid start towards good article status. However there are a few issues.
 * ✅ First off the lead section does not adequately summarize the entire article per WP:LEAD.
 * ✅ More of an issue, as hinted at in the lead, is that the article has an awkward blend of in-and-out-of-universe phrasing, for example: "The Smoking Man was born on or around August 20, 1940, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana" treats the character like a real person, but then it switches to an out-of-universe treatment with "In the Smoking Man's first appearance, he oversaw Dana Scully's debriefing and disposed of her evidence in the show's pilot episode, and eventually developed into the series' primary antagonist". Per WP:WAF, it should all be recast in an out-of-universe treatment.
 * ✅ Confusing passages: "In at least one early script draft from the "Pilot", a Special Agent named Lake Drazen is present at the meeting near the start of the episode, having chosen Dana Scully (Gillian Anderson) for an assignment to evaluate the validity of Fox Mulder's (David Duchovny) work on the X-Files. Drazen's final scene on the episode suggests that he became the Cigarette Smoking Man". I'm confused. So this Drazen character never appeared in the final product? How did he become the Cigarette Smoking Man if the Cigarette Smoking man is in the same episode throughout?
 * ✅ There appears to be excessive wikilinking throughout; junk links like scene, evil, and villain should go as they lessen the impact of more relevant links.
 * ✅ The entire last paragraph of "Conceptual history" is unreferecned.
 * Finally, I think the article needs some reworking to become more accessible to non-X-Files fans. Give more description as to who characters and and some introduction to the premise.
 * And how can i do that? I don't understand the problem? --TIAYN (talk) 04:14, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has never heard of the X-Files or seen an episode. For example:
 * ✅"The "Cigarette Smoking Man" (often referred to as "Cancer Man") is a fictional character on the American science fiction television series The X-Files, played by William B. Davis. He served as the arch-nemesis of FBI Special Agent Fox Mulder, and was later revealed to be Mulder's father. Although it was revealed late in the show that he once answered to the name C.G.B. Spender, fans continued to refer to him as the "Cigarette Smoking Man" because he was almost always seen chain-smoking Morley cigarettes and because he, like other series villains, had multiple aliases." - ok, it explains who he is, that the X-Files is a television series, he's the archnemesis of the FBI guy Mulder. Second paragraph: "His silent presence in Walter Skinner's office early on was always a warning that the shadowy government was again keeping an eye on the nonconformist agent. The Smoking Man oversaw Dana Scully's initial briefing on her assignment to the X-Files to debunk the work of Mulder, as well as her debriefing. Throughout the series, he continued to obfuscate and attempt to hide the truth about various government secrets, often using brutal means to achieve his goals. He was killed by a missile fired from a helicopter on the orders of super-soldier Knowle Rohrer." Who is Walter Skinner? Dana Scully? "shadowy government" links to the Syndicate, and doesn't tell me much without navigating away from the page. Is knowing about Rohrer that important in the lead? He needs more introduction in the body. Things like that. Martin Raybourne (talk) 19:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

--Martin Raybourne (talk) 22:35, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment
 * ✅ The grammar in the lead needs to be cleaned up.✅
 * Did another clean up.


 * ✅ Anything related to the plot needs to be in present tense.
 * Most of the character arc section is still in past tense. Ophois (talk) 18:26, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅ As well, the conceptual history doesn't really seem to give much development info on the character past the first season or so. It's mainly CSM characterization and praise for Davis' acting. I don't know how much info is available though, so it may suffice.
 * I'm pretty sure their is no more information, but i can see if i can dig up some more. --TIAYN (talk) 15:26, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Ophois (talk) 13:36, 11 October 2009 (UTC) Ophois, do you have any other concerns? Martin Raybourne (talk) 18:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ The sentence "His confidence in Spender fails after a failed assassination attempt and later on his betrayal, he confronts his son and apparently kills him." is confusing. Ophois (talk) 18:26, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there are still some grammatical issues. As well, the reception section could be improved with some more critical opinions of the character. Ophois (talk) 19:40, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Their are not many critical opinion to find, serious, most of it must have been shelved some where, but i don't know where that is! All i'm trying to say is, if i could find reviews or comments about his character, i would have included them. But i'll take another look for you Ophois. --TIAYN (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Found some, all of them from Entertainment Weekly, but some is better than none right? --TIAYN (talk) 20:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it should be fine. Ophois (talk) 22:55, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you should change Conceptual History to Development, and add a section on Characterization. A lot of stuff is in improper places in the article. Ophois (talk) 17:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Changed it to development, but their is not Characterization information in the article, with the exception of fan reaction towards him, etc is he evil or nice. --TIAYN (talk) 14:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Which would be characterization. As well, there is a comment by Kim Manners comparing him to Darth Vader. Ophois (talk) 14:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well that can also be seen as development and fan reaction. It fits as both. So its redundant to create another section for it. Actually, their is no need to. Fan reaction fits bette rin the reception section and the "Darth Vader" commented is directly tide into the creation og the character. --TIAYN (talk) 15:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Him being the series' Darth Vader isn't development. And the other stuff is not really fan reaction, it's characteristics that fans feel the character has. Whether a fan feels he is good or evil doesn't have to do with whether they like him on the show or not. Ophois (talk) 15:50, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. --TIAYN (talk) 16:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Nicely done, IMO. A few nitpicks for those sections still, but I'll take care of them. Ophois (talk) 16:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You should try to find a couple more positive critical reviews of the character. Ophois (talk) 17:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

If their were more reviews available, i would fine them. Try for yourself, but i've tried over a month now finding reception information, and seriously, this is all i could find. --TIAYN (talk) 17:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I give my support, although I think the final decision is up to user Martin Raybourne. Ophois (talk) 17:56, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for improving the article on your spare time. ;) --TIAYN (talk) 18:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * There's still an issue with in-universe content, specifically the first two paragraphs of the character arc. Martin Raybourne (talk) 21:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That actually reminds me... everything in the plot section needs to be cited to the individual episodes.✅ Ophois (talk) 22:07, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, some stuff in the plot needs explanation. Who is Diana Fowley, and why was the Syndicate at risk of being destroyed? Why did he kill his son Jeffrey? What does Fowley disagree with him over that leads to her death? Look at the section as if you have never seen the show. What would a reader not understand?✅ Ophois (talk) 15:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ There's some places where I believe you are referring to the CSM as "he", but due to construction this needs to be made explicit (I've left hidden comment tags). Martin Raybourne (talk) 17:48, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, in the first paragraph of character arc, it says he destroyed evidence. Evidence of what? Also try to expand on who Mulder and Scully are, as Mulder is strongly related to CSM's story at times.✅ Ophois (talk) 18:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It still doesn't explain it. Evidence of what? Mulder and Scully have many cases throughout the series. What is important about that evidence that would make CSM want to destroy it? Ophois (talk) 15:34, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mentioned... By all means its not that notable for the "Cigarette Smoking Man's" character bio.. Maybe its best to remove it? It is never referrenced again in the series and why he did it! I'll remove it. --TIAYN (talk) 16:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen that episode in a very long time, but was it connected to aliens or something? Doesn't have to be detailed, just what motivation did he have? Ophois (talk) 16:05, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mind. I fixed it. Ophois (talk) 16:09, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed it, to hide the truth of alien existence. Not a good answear, but their does not seem to be anything better. --TIAYN (talk) 16:12, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, the prose is up to an acceptable standard, so I will pass the article. Good work, Martin Raybourne (talk) 00:39, 20 October 2009 (UTC)