Talk:Cinco de Mayo/Archive 2

Battle proceedings
I support the comment that battle proceedings should be ommitted as this article is about the festivity. Besides it is highly unaccurate, it should at the very least expose them as theories but I'll spare the corrections for the battle article itself.

What!? No way. First off, where is the battle gonna go? That'd be like leaving the Birth of Christ out of the Christmas article. Or whatever the point of Halloween is out of the Halloween article. The holiday is about the battle (and the victory) and therefore it must be there. Sorry for the contorted christmas comparison. Motor.on 01:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't get why anyone would vandalize Wikipedia. It's only asking for it when it says anyone can edit it. Why don't they verify they eidts before including them or even make people use other websites that are trusted to verify the information. If you ask me, Encarta is way better even though you have to pay to search its in depth sections. For more information please visit ign.com (I am in no way affiliated with ign.com, instead I just tell people to go there because most of the time they have interesting things to say such as what possibly will happen at E3). I am Paco. Thank you for your time. By the way, I'm wearing my "I make stuff up" shirt while writing this.


 * Well, due to the extremely fast rate of vandalism beign fixed, and the fact that there is more information on Wikipedia, If you don't like it, please do vandalise! Then you will never be able to contribute again to this database of human knowledge.  But that's not the point!  the point is to have everyone contribute what they know, creating a massive database of fact.  And It is almost as accurate as Encarta on Scientific, peer-reviewed articles (3 mistakes as opposed to 2).  But if you feel like vandalising, then go ahead and use your limited, not free database. Motor.on 00:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

From a Gringo's Perspective
My maternal grandmother (abuelita) was born in Mexico, though she is of pure Spanish descent. My mom was born in East LA. The family recipe is an enchilada dinner which my Irish father even relished. It wasn't until we grew up that we began to celebrate Cinco de Mayo, and then it was all fun, food and drink. So out came the "chilades" as we called them, and the margueritas...and party.

My mom called it Mexican Independence Day --- and why --- because who really knew and who really cared. We just partied. And all the restaurants use it as a big day like the Irish St. Patrick's Day, which by the way is not a celebration of a battle. But it is a big reason to party, and it seems all the world gets into it. Now I've lived in LA all my life so Cinco de Mayo (which sounds like 4th of July) was just a big party day without understanding or needing to understand the cause behind it. THIS IS NOT THE MEXICAN INDEPENDENCE DAY!!!!!!!!!

Fortunately, it has something behind it so it's not like celebrating Ground Hog Day. And in So Cal it has more meaning than La Quatorze Juillet (Bastille Day). For the articles sake I think that an accurate story of the battle need be portrayed, then a transition to the celebration that it is today. POVs or other hearsay need be properly remarked.

This article is written sort of anonymously, so it might behoove someone to come up with a verifiably accurate story and sort through whatever might be a revisionist historical account on this article. And that the User/author leave some credential. Magi Media 05:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

I have been reading around on Cinco de Mayo and the Battle of Puebla. There is a Wikipedia story on the battle already, and this Cinco de Mayo article may be telling the story in some sort of redouble. I would suggest that the battle section of this story be referred to the article, with some very abridged synopsis. Then the part on the celebration, which in this article is not to far off base, be more emphasized. Maybe this article wouldn't be as big as it is now, but it would define Cinco de Mayo more relevantly, and leave the battle potion to a more historical article.

I have also noted in the story some remarks that may be more mythical than factual, like the Mexicans being armed with nothing more than machetes, or this story about a stampeding herd of cattle. And the rain, like a daily monsoonal downpour, came at 3 in the afternoon as expected. It affected the battle which just took too long during the day to resolve. It's possible that these parts of the story are a little revised. Magi Media 14:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

Why Cinco de Mayo is built up over the real Independence day
Cinco de Mayo was bult up by radical "Chicano" students in the 60s looking for something to celebrate their "Mexicanness". They didn't want to use the real Independence Day (9/16) because that was too close to Labor day and right after school started so people would be too busy to properly celebrate. They found this obscure victory and built it up into something greater than it really deserves.


 * That's an interesting theory, and coupled with some corporate advertising I can believe its probably the true origin and how it took off.-BillyRego


 * Hold up on that thought! I asked my mother today about Cinco de Mayo back when she was young, the 30's. She is a hispanic born in East LA and remembers how much of a big deal her Uncle Ramón used to make about Cinco de Mayo, and that he used it as an excuse to party. But they were of the impression that it was an Independence Day, They had no idea about the story behind it. This stuff is old...not recent. Magi Media 20:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media


 * Hmm, I'll have to find that site again, but I was just reading a page discussing the history of Cinco de Mayo, saying that it was indeed first celebrated in 1967, by students within the CSU system, who chose the Battle of Puebla as a symbolic event, to help create a Chicano Studies program within the CSU system. Every reference to Cinco de Mayo I've ever seen places its genesis in the late 60's.  -FeralDruid 08:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Magi your point is really irrelivant and has no place here. It doesn't matter what your grandma said, that isnt a valid argument. If some old lay said that JFK died in the space shuttle built in the 1980s because she was senile doens't add validity to anything anywhere 202.132.6.219 (talk) 04:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Cinco de Mayo: Day off in US Schools?
So I wanted to add something that caught me off-guard. I live in a community with quite a large Hispanic community, and I can't tell how long it's been like this. The last week (this post/edit being made as of May 5th, 2006) has featured very heated debate in my city over the issue of illegal immigration, amnesty, and conflicts between those who feel anyone should come in.

What struck me as odd is the fact that the local school district had scheduled Cinco de Mayo as a school holiday. Being a public school, one that was thinking of cancelling Federal holidays, this disconcerted me. What shook me even more was that they decided, apparently very recently, to hold school on the 5th of May anyways. Dropping my younger brother off at school, I noticed that only about half the parking lot was full, so it seems most people still used the day to party.

The reason I'm adding this to the discussion is A) It's my first time posting here, and B) I have a feeling that Cinco de Mayo, for as much as it's been latched onto by the food companies, is going to become a subject of debate and another "battle" in the debate over illegal immigration. I am quite intruiged to find out if any other schools in the US got out for Cinco de Mayo, or were even considering it. It should be noted that I live in Rockford, IL... No where near the Southwest.--Athenor 17:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, the term "Hispanic" refers to decendants from numerous countries of origin, not just Mexicans. For this reason, it is offensive to state that "many cities with large Hispanic populations honor the day as a symbolic representation of Hispanic pride," considering that this has nothing to do with other Hispanic countries. Essentially, all uses of the term "Hispanic" in this article should be replaced with "Mexican-American."


 * I agree for the most, except where you say it's offensive. Sign your comments? :) Oleksandr 11:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Patrick's vs. Mayo
St. Patrick's Day and Cinco de Mayo are very much alike in the U. S. People of cross-ethnicities just love to party on those days. They both feature food and drinking. As a matter of fact the Irish really emphasize the drinking!! The only difference is that C de M celebrates the victory of a battle where SPD doesn't. Lord knows I celebrate them both alike. From an Spanish Irishman, I salute you all: Buen Cinco de Mayo! Magi Media 04:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

It's extremely disappointing to see someone of Irish heritage to reinforce a negative, inaccurate and racist stereotype.


 * They are also very different, in that St. Patrick's Day celebrates being Irish - and it's observance in the US far predates commercial influences. (Though it is increasingly commercial, like many other US holidays.)  Cinco de Mayo (among the non-hispanic Americans) on the other hand is almost completely the creation of beer and tequila importers and producers as a reason to consume their products to excess.  24.16.164.253 23:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you're wrong. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that more Guiness and Jamesons is consumed on St. Patrick's Day per capita than Corona and Cuervo on Cinco de mayo. Of course the holidays are different, but in reality, not by much. And stop being such a whimp and leave you're open signature. Magi Media 03:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

St. Patrick's Day and Cinco de mayo are very similar. I mean what kind of message does it send when my white friends celebrate the holiday more than I do? I have a multi-racial friend that uses her Spanish roots as an excuse to celebrate the holiday, which when you think about it makes no sense because she's Spanish not Mexican. Even some racist people, namely those who refuse to stop calling me a "wetback" celebrate it. Even the boy from Chile celebrates it! Corona comes out with all these ads right before it, telling you to have a Happy Cinco de mayo. It's a completely commercial holiday. My father refuses to celebrate the "American Holiday", my father a proud Mexican man from Guadalajara, telling me not to observe it. It's as American as it can be, while still maintaining the Spanish name. It's an American holiday! LatinaEinstein 22:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

CdM and Saint Pat's are nothing alike, other than how the media portrays them; and how businesses try to profit off of them. CdM is an observance of a battle. St. Pat's is just that, a saint's day. It is not a day to celebrate being Irish. It is a day that the Catholic cycle of prayer observes and upon which it venerates a Saint named Patrick. It's a feast day; like many other feast days in the church calendar.

Oh, and in the vein of offering my anecdotes on the subject, approximately zero "Mexican-Americans" that I know have any clue as to what they are celebrating on CdM. Yes, most think it is Mexican Independence day. And, almost every year at least one of my teacher friends ask their classes what it's celebrating, and none of the kids knows or offers the independence day answer. When they are told that's not correct, they argue with the instructor. One last thing, most of the school sponsored "celebrations" of CdM around here last at least a week, sometimes two, and mostly involve "car shows" and grafitti art demonstrations69.110.74.194 (talk) 05:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)non-Wikipedian, non-Roman Catholic, almost non-"Mexican-American," Californian.

Just another party? Just for Mexican-Americans?
WOW... seriously... I am surprised with how much this event is misunderstood.

Everybody in Mexico City, in Guadalajara or Puebla... in any big mexican city or town; even in Spain, Cuba or Venezuela... all of them seem to at least have a consistent, albeit "officialist" and textbook-made concept of what May 5 is all about (beware that I am not saying they "know" the exact nature of the occasion).

I kind of agree with all of the complaints and observations above (by the way it is Maximilian of Habsburg)... I also even agree with the controversial statements that (claim) it is (basically seen as) just another holiday to party out and drink tequila -- as a Mexican in Toronto, I have never celebrated it myself, but I always think I should do so, and in precisely that way, with a lot of tequila :-D

If I remember correctly from my years in elementary school in Mexico, the big days were March 21, May 1, May 5, May 10, May 15, September 16, November 2, November 19, and December 12. Of the forementioned, for school kids, May 5 had always been seen as an utterly convenient day to celebrate something and close the loop for the super-duper-(first-two)-holiweeks of May which also bundled labour's day, mother's day and teacher's day (and some of us still complain we don't party for the sake of it?)

So, whatever for the battle and what really happened... irrªtiºnal 08:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, me again. I don't really see where this discussion is going! May 5th is just at hand and it would be a shame if this article is shown as it is now. Very honestly, I think the information provided here must be less propagandistic in nature, whether they are or not about the festivities as relative to Mexicans in the United States. irrªtiºnal 12:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "I don't really see where this discussion is going!". Generally, towards improving the article. The depth and effect of the celebration on US and Mexico, I think it's pretty clear by now, will never have a concensus. Some people say they've heard first-hand from Mexican-Americans that it's no big deal. Me, I'm hearing kilometers away the first "Palomazos" of a weekend-long fireworks display as I'm typing. I think the article is in a better shape than before right now. Let's keep an eye on it for vandalism for the rest of the day. Oleksandr 11:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

--- As the source of most of edits to the US section, my intent was not to turn this into propoganda, nor to slight the importance to Mexico or the actual Battle. Others have taken the chop to those sections; I agree that what currently appears can be enhanced to give the Mexico and historic battle facts their proper treatment. However, describing the significance of the day as merely commercially manufactured or not authentic to Mexico (as was previously written) is neither accurate nor complete. As is written for every other cultural celebration, the date is a meaningful display of the Mexican-American culture - whether one chooses to identify with that culture or participate in its celebration is a matter of choice - not propoganda. User: R Cruz Jr. 5 May 2007

Missing Discussion?
Someone had written something here about a mythical event that had taken place the same day as Cinco de Mayo, and was probably the purpose of the celebration of that day. It looks like it had been removed. Who decides what should be discussed and what shouldn't? Did someone think is was vandalism, or non-factual? I believe the information could have been verified. - D. Edgar Hernandez, 6-28-07


 * You can find it here in the archive. If you have a comment or discussion, you should feel free to cut and paste the posting here, and add your observations.  Espana  Viva  02:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Changed
I changed spanish into the word english in the first sentnce it makes more sense —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.76.28.122 (talk) 00:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

International Totse Day
5th of May is also International Totse Day, I think it should be added to the article. bbbiiiiiigggggggg huge but gosh!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.144.43.210 (talk) 17:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

wrong link
please fix the link to Mexican independence on the main page. should be this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_War_of_Independence) rather than grito de dolores.


 * Well, September 16 does commemorate the grito, Mexico's "declaration of independence." The actual day that independence was finally recognized by Spain, September 27, is not viewed as the Mexican "independence day."  Espana  Viva  06:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:OBVIOUS
I submit that the first sentence of this article should be a good description/definition of what Cinco de Mayo is. In other words, I should be able to ask "What is Cinco de Mayo?" and have the first sentence be a brief and satisfactory answer, though obviously not one that tells me every detail. This is per WP:OBVIOUS.

"Cinco de Mayo is primarily a regional and not an obligatory federal holiday in Mexico." isn't a definition, it's just a statement, however true. Really, the fact that it isn't celebrated nationally is more important than what it represents?

Someone else will have to write it; I am going to bow out of this because I have no special knowledge of or interest in the subject matter. I would just like the article to follow guidelines. Matuszek (talk) 15:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hm, how about this?


 * "Cinco de Mayo is primarily a holiday celebrating Mexican heritage and pride, though some use it as an opportunity to celebrate Mexican independence. It is observed regionally, not federally, in Mexico and regions of the United States with a dense Mexican-American population. The sources explaining its genesis are conflicting, but the date commemorates the Battle of Puebla. It has been adopted in various countries and by non-Mexican ethnicities as an opportunity to celebrate Mexican culture.


 * "A common misconception in the United States is that Cinco de Mayo is Mexico's Independence Day; Mexico's Independence Day is actually September 16 (dieciséis de septiembre in Spanish), which is the most important national patriotic holiday in Mexico." Qwyneth (talk) 15:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but the current lead is fine. Cinco de mayo is a Mexican holiday, which is also celebrated in the US. The first sentence of the lead should say, as it does, that it is a regional holiday in Mexico. Also, there is no citable dispute about the origin of the US observation - the UCLA paper cited in the article does a solid, scholarly job of tracing the origins of the US observance. In order to say that there is a "conflict," you'd have to find an equally solid work suggesting a different origin of the US observance. Espana Viva  06:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I improved the lead a bit, to "Cinco de Mayo...is a regional holiday in Mexico, primarily celebrated in the state of Puebla." The old version was weak because it said the holiday was regional, but did not say where it was celebrated. --Srleffler (talk) 17:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

General Zaragoza
Texas (Tejas) celebrates Big-Time. General Zaragoza was from Goliad Tejas. The Bozos that are writing history here need much more research. Richard Soto from San Anto. Do yourself a favor. Read the letters Gen. Zaragoza sent to Pres. Benito Juarez. Read them in Spanish. Also, to the bozo that said somebody in his family was "pure Spanish." Spain was/has been the home to many very different people. There is nothing "pure" about Spain. Saint Patricks day in Mexico is very significant. There are probably many people that are not aware of the San Patricio batallion of the Mexican Army during the Mexico-US War. There are monuments to these Irishmen that were executed for desertion. It takes heavy duty research to find out about these guys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.2.32.187 (talk) 15:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Clever
That is clever ... you have five reference, in one of the first sentences, for the Cinco de Mayo article. Rob (talk) 18:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Cinco de Mayo
{cinco De Mayo is a very important day in mexico because it means the battle of Puebla.in 1631 puebla won thats what 5 de mayo mans.....76.204.37.112 (talk) 23:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)