Talk:Cinema of China/Archives/2012

Splitting the article
I vote for splitting this page into Hongkong, Mainland and Taiwan, because they are too different to be on one page. -- Michael

Is it better to redirect this article to "Chinese cinema" as "Cinema of China" sounds misleadingly like it deals just with films from the mainland? - Mandel


 * Or to keep it standard, split it into three articles: Cinema of Mainland China, Cinema of Taiwan, Cinema of Hong Kong? --Jiang 16:55, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

How about another compromise -- "Cinema in Chinese", meaning "Cinema in the Chinese language"? - Mandel


 * That's no different than [Chinese cinema], as it is not standard. Between the two, I prefer Chinese cinema. --Jiang 10:32, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Actually I am not really for splitting - there isn't enough separate materials to split. Also directors nowadays tend to use actors and actresses changeably from all three places, as in Hero. So keeping one article split into three sections is probably more helpful. -- Mandel

Calling it Cinema of China is not wrong. If we have the three proposed splits redirecting here, people will find their way. --Jia ng 01:27, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Since no one has raised any objections, I think it's fine just to leave the article as it is.

P.S. I'll like to ask what Hong Kong director Wong Jing / Wang Jing is doing in the repertoire list. He is a director of such crass slapstick comedies that even Hong-Kongers themselves are a bit ashamed to admit him as their own. He definitely did not contribute anything significant to Hong Kong cinema (except by making it more crude). The worse thing is that he is always very self-congratulatory about his movies (maybe it's the box-office). So would someone save us the agony and kindly axe him from the list? -- Mandel

Calling the article Cinema of China is very misleading since the article deals with both Hong Kong Cinema and Taiwanese cinema, neither of which would have considered themselves part of the PRC for the vast majority of their cinema history. Hong Kong was a British colony from well before the birth of cinema right up until 1997. Taiwan, AKA "Republic of China" considers itsself to be its own country (while the "People's Republic of China" would argue with that). Needless to say, the PRC is under Communist rule, Taiwan is under democratic rule. Given this, I'd favour either one of two solutions:


 * 1) Split the article into three:
 * 2) Hong Kong (the most important part of Chinese Cinema)
 * 3) Mainland China
 * 4) Taiwan
 * 5) Rename the article "Chinese Cinema" so that it refers to the Chinese race (or language) rather than the countries.

I'd probably favour the first solution as I feel that including Hong Kong cinema in a generic article for all of Chinese cinema inhibits the growth of the article on Hong Kong cinema. Hong Kong cinema is by far the most important and interesting part of Chinese cinema in terms of box office, international audience, production and influence so it must warrant more than a drop-in-the-ocean mention in a generic Cinema of China article?

Going into the new year, I think it's inevitable that this article will eventually be split into three parts, mainly because they are so different in nature and partly because of its length. At present the article is unnecessarily biased towards HK films (not that I don't enjoy them or complaining) but hopefully we can get people of expertise to work on the Mainland Chinese and Taiwan bits, which are every bit as interesting.

Eventually I think the work will end up either as:


 * (a) Three split articles (HK, Taiwan, Mainland China); or
 * (b) Three split articles, and a more concise one under this heading (recommended).

I seriously can't see the article not splitting. Basically the HK section is not yet complete (although I find some parts can be copyedited) yet it's already a somewhat huge in size.

Wish-list: someone to do the China and Taiwan sections! Mandel 19:28, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)


 * I suggest:
 * Cinema of China (Any need for 'Mainland'?)
 * Cinema of Taiwan
 * Cinema of Hong Kong
 * This would follow convention used by other countries, while all three articles can be placed in Category:Chinese cinema. Jihg 08:44, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * I second this arrangement. Mandel 09:01, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * Done. Jihg 11:26, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

Just throwing an idea out there, but no one has mentioned anything about maybe making pre-1949 cinema (i.e. before the Communists) its own page. It doesn't seem accurate to lump it with mainland-cinema and the Communist cinema of post 1949, particularly since it really held the foundations of all three "Chinese" cinemas, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Mainland. (Tryptofeng 20:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC))

Notable people
Now we've split the article, we're left with a list of notable people that needs to be put somewhere: Fruit Chan, Jackie Chan, Chen Kaige, Sammi Cheng, Leslie Cheung, Maggie Cheung, David Chiang, Samson Chiu, Stephen Chow, Chow Yun-Fat, Ge You, Ekin Cheng, Gong Li, Lin Dai, Tsui Hark, Hou Hsiao-Hsien, King Hu, Ann Hui, Michael Hui, Sammo Hung, Jiang Wen, Wong Jing, Lu Jie, Stanley Kwan, Leon Lai, Ringo Lam, Andy Lau, Ang Lee, Anthony Wong, Bruce Lee, Tony Leung Chiu Wai, Jet Li, Betty Loh Ti, Anita Mui, Michelle Reis, Ruan Lingyu, Patrick Tam, Tian Zhuangzhuang, Stanley Tong, Tsai Mingliang, Eric Tsang, Alec Su, Wong Kar-wai, Daniel Wu, John Woo, Xie Jin, Edward Yang, Sally Yeh, Michelle Yeoh, Yuen Biao, Yuen Wo Ping, Zhang Yimou, Zhang Ziyi

Remove people from the list once they've been put somewhere appropriate. I favour using categories to do this, following the model used by several other countries: Jihg 11:55, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Category:Chinese actors, Category:Chinese film directors, Category:Chinese screenwriters, Category:Chinese film producers.
 * Category:Hong Kong actors, Category:Hong Kong film directors, Category:Hong Kong screenwriters, Category:Hong Kong film producers.
 * Category:Taiwanese actors, Category:Taiwanese film directors, Category:Taiwanese screenwriters, Category:Taiwanese film producers.

I started List of Chinese directors, List of Chinese actors, List of Chinese actresses. im going to do List of Chinese films presently tp fix the mislinked zh articles (there's two zh links; one points to the right place, one points to a list of film titles). the advantage i see to employing lists as well as categories is that people who wouldnt go to a project page can add red links, which other people can write articles/stubs for, that then show up in the category. it seems to be working okay with the Japanese equivalents. Nateji77 17:07, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Undid disambiguation
I moved Cinema of mainland China back to here due to the many many links that lead here. Please do not make disambigation pages without correcting all the links that lead to the page.

I suggest that this page not be a disambiguation and instead by written in summary style.--Jiang 20:51, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * First, I think you're right in terms of calling Cinema of Mainland China Chinema of China because that is the naming convention that is popularly used.
 * Second, you need more knowledge of these three distinct cinema traditions before making a decision to use "summary style". Prior to the last couple of years, there has been three cinema traditions: China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan.  This has nothing to do with politics--well, the political and cultural separation certainly is a cause but the cinematic traditions are extremely distinct and identifiable apart from what political system they came from.  Thus, there is not really a "Chinese Cinema" prior to the last few years, and even still, audience and use of actors from different regions do not really make for a merger of traditions.  You still have your Steven Chow, very HK kungfu type of films.  You still have Taiwanese films incorporating increasing amounts of Japanese/English language into them.  You still have a distinct 5th generation from China doing their thing.  At the same time, yeah, there's a merger in the sense that you watch Ang Lee do Crouching Tiger, taking a low, B-movie, cliche form of cinema and really elevating it; Zhang Yimou obviously was inspired directly or indirectly to make his own artistic, innovative martial arts films (Hero and HFD).
 * So the really big problem with summary style is that you are talking about something that is not yet true. There is now an international Chinese-language cinema with quite a bit of exchange and large non-Chinese audiences.  Is there going to be merger so thorough as to obliviate the three distinct strands?  I doubt it, but regardless, it's an open question that has yet to be answered.  Why should the three cinemas be put next to each other in that way?  Obviously many of the people that are interested in one cinema are interested in the others, so disambiguation is clearly appropriate.  But summary-style implies some relation between them as if they are derived from the same Chinese tradition when in actuality, there is a possible merging, which most likely will only be partial.  French cinema in the middle of the last century drove a lot of the innovation we have in films today.  Does that mean all the cinema is French?  Until you force Cantonese people to all speak Mandarin only, I doubt HK cinema will ever disappear.  Same with Cinema of China and Cinema of Taiwan.--160.39.195.88 22:57, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They are to a degree derived from the same tradition - sections one and two of this article also form a basis for the Taiwanese cinema after WWII. The KMT controlled the media and forced everything to be in Mandarin so the influence there is relevant.

If we clearly state that there are three different strands, as has been done in the lead section, and also provide three separate articles for the three different strands, then they are clearly differentiated. This article will just provide an overview. There's no implying they are the same thing, but they are all Chinese language cinema and hold the same cultural traditions. --Jiang 02:43, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm sure you are not a student of cinema because what you said makes no sense. Do you know who was making significant cinema under the KMT in China?  Leftists and communists (true ones, not the Communist Party aka cult of Mao).  Do not go around bullshitting or assuming things about history that aren't true, i.e. "oh, but didn't KMT go to Taiwan and wasn't KMT in China before?".  BUT THEY WEREN'T MAKING THE MOVIES!!!!


 * Huge influences on Chinese cinema that have nothing to do with HK or Taiwan: 1) Shanghainese intellectual leftist early cinema 2) Communist propagandistic, didactic films 3) Great Leap Forward / Cultural Revolution / censorship 4) 5th generation reform of films (where the subject is always CHINA!!! (yes in big letters, the big, imaginary, essentialist idea of China, i.e. Chen Kaige's Yellow Earth).


 * Responding to your nonsensical position that they are all Chinese-language cinema. Do you see a page called English language cinema?  Do you know that American pop culture dominates especially in English speaking countries, aka UK and Canada and that there is much more exchange between the three than between Taiwan/China/HK?  There is not much travel between Mainlanders, Taiwan, and HK, mostly because Mainlanders are poor as fuck and because it's a security risk to Taiwan, and because HK has a separate political system (though the reverse of Taiwanese and HK going to Mainland is big).  Yet, there's no English language cinema.  You are making the case for an additional page called Chinese langauge cinema, or actually more properly, something like International Chinese Cinema that is a very recent, not historical phenomena.  You're out of bounds Jiang, learn more about the topic before you make ridiculous assertions like that.  I bet you've never seen a Chinese film prior to the 80s or 70s, if even that.  Being that your knowledge base is so weak, I would have to say that what you're basing your opinion on is your political views as reflected in your foolish comment about "glorious Chinese culture".--160.39.195.88 21:09, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"China"/"PRC" vs. "mainland China" for page titles
Following the long discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese) regarding proper titling of Mainland China-related topics, polls for each single case has now been started here. Please come and join the discussion, and cast your vote. Thank you. &mdash; Instantnood 14:48, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

List of film-related topics
There is a dispute over how cinema of China, cinema of Hong Kong and cinema of Taiwan should be presented on the list of film-related topics. I changed how it is presented. User:Huaiwei reverted it, saying that " This is ridiculous. Since when is HK cinema not Chinese cinema? Then what is it? English? Thai? Japanese? ", " Chinese cinema is understood to refer to cinema produced in Greater China. They may develop in different geographic entities, but they remain inter-related throughout history. " , and " I know Chinese cinema enough to know that it didnt being in 1949. Nor did HK cinema develop without direct influence or contributions from Greater China. I hadent seen any arguments against this. ".

To my understanding the cinema of China article is bascially about the cinema of mainland China, which the cinema of Hong Kong and cinema of Taiwan aren't subset of. All opinions are welcome over how it should be presented. &mdash; Instantnood 14:56, July 21, 2005 (UTC)


 * User:Huaiwei has categorised category:cinema of Hong Kong, cinema of Hong Kong and cinema of Taiwan under category:cinema of China, which, to my understand, is for the cinema of mainland China . &mdash; Instantnood 15:46, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Placing "Cinema of Taiwan" and "Cinema of Hong Kong" under "Cinema of China" makes sense provided that the article on Cinema of China is on Greater China. I think it should be and proposed to use summary style above, but some other users have prevented this from being realized. I still think Cinema of China should be converted to an overview article on the Cinema of Greater China (this is in line with out naming conventions). If not, then I support listing them seperately. --Jiang 10:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with that as well. Meanwhile, according to your proposal will some of the content currently at cinema of China be moved to cinema of mainland China if the summary style is adopted? &mdash; Instantnood 11:46, July 27, 2005 (UTC)


 * There's a problem in Huaiwai's remark. It could be really true that movies produced before 1997 are English films in a sense. So did the sovereignty of these Brtish flicks, along with the territory of Hong Kong, return to our ah-yeh mainland China in the last century? -- Jerry Crimson Mann 15:33, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I guess there's a pretty clear consensus that the article currently under the title cinema of China is mainland China-specific. The sovereignty of Hong Kong before 1997 is rather irrelevant (if that's relevant the status and the path of history of Taiwan is even more complicated), as what's relevant here is that they're chiefly Chinese-language cinema. &mdash; Instantnood 09:27, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

zhang ziyi
do we really need zhang ziyi links on this page? cant they go in her article? Nateji77 17:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

i agree, there is much more to the Cinema of China than just Zhang Ziyi. (Tryptofeng 13:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC))

East Asian cinema
Hi. I created the East Asian cinema template and the associated article and would like to request some input on that article from the people who've worked on the various cinema articles for countries in the Far East / East Asia, including the "Cinema of China" article. I think it would be worthwhile to expand the East Asian cinema article cos it's quite perfunctory at present, but I don't have the time to research each country's output as thoroughly as I'd like and I don't want to simply rewrite what you already have here. I tried putting up a request for expansion but little has happened.

My intention was to focus on the Western experience of East Asian cinema - particularly focussing on the impact and influence of the movies, directors, stars and film styles from the Far East on European and American audiences. This would include the increasing popularity of Eastern films in the West, especially box office, video & DVD market successes, but also cult figures and genres. It should also include information about collaborations and crossovers by Eastern and Western film makers.

Because of it's wider focus, the East Asian cinema article should ideally have synopses of the film industries of each East Asian country, but not just simple reiterations of what already exists in a more substantial form here.

I'm sure some users may disagree with my some of my ideas here, or have a better structural approach as to how the article should be expanded and evolve. That's cool - all I want is to make the article encompass as much scope as possible and to be a worthy place to group these diverse film cultures together. Each country should be represented, so I realise that using my intended focus may skew the article in favour of the larger industries of Hong Kong, China and Japan, which may be unwise. Anyway, any help on the East Asian cinema article would be appreciated.

Cheers, Gram 00:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Solitary Island
I've added a brief mention of the "Solitary Island" period (in some sources I see it referred to as Isolated Island) in Shanghai, in that the current article makes it seem like filmmaking stopped as soon as the Japanese arrived. Tryptofeng 21:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Pics
Added a few pictures (mainly culled from other articles). I have dvd's of Goddess and Street Angel but have yet to figure out how to take screencaps of them...Tryptofeng 00:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You need a dvd-rom player and a software to take screenshots. the softwares can be found for free (freewares) around the internet eg. hoversnap Mandel 08:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

1927 film
The 1927 silent film "Romance of the West Chamber" should be mentioned. Badagnani 08:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

5th Generation
I'm not sure how this article can claim the 5th Generation movement 'ended' in 1989, when most of the films and the international recognition happened in the 1990s. In fact it's been said the anger vs patriarchs in works like Zhang Yimou's 'Judou' are a direct response to the 89 events, which led to it's ban on mainland. One can argue that 89 influenced many 5th Generation films throughout 90s in fact, so not sure how anyone can argue the 'movement' ended then. One could also argue it is on-going given it's major figures are still making films, execrable though they are! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.37.26.162 (talk) 01:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It was a statement made by David Bordwell in his book Film History (the reference for this article). Essentially, the 5th Generation movement (which started in 1982 and are spearheaded by a whole alumni of 1982 graduates) and the 5th generation directors are quite different.  Bordwell sees 1989 as the year when the PRC cracked down on filmmaking after the Tiananmen incident.  Incidentally, it is true that most of the 5th generation directors went into other works like TV or migrated overseas.  The difference of course is Zhang Yimou and Chen Kaige still continued making films.


 * The 5th generation "movement" films also do have their own signature, whereas in the 1990s films by Zhang Yimou and Chen Kaige became more generic and commercialized.


 * BTW Judou was really released in 1989 and so was made around the time of the Tiananmen Square incident. I really don't think it is made especially in response to the Incident.  Also, I disagree with your statement that the 1989 protests influenced the works of the 5th generation.  In fact it was the 6th generation which was more affected by this (eg. Lou Ye).  The 5th Generation are much more affected by the Cultural Revolution, which lasted far longer and is more traumatic to them than the 1989 crackdown.116.14.209.60 (talk) 15:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Informative?
Every article I start to read about the ex-Soviet Bloc or Communist countries start with historical references of the tight communist era. It is like to insist every article of colonial countries to start with their colonial and slave history. I dont care to read in the intro about the communist influenced Chinese cinema. Everybody watches nowadays cinema that is not like that. This is biased. --Aleksd (talk) 15:04, 29 August 2012 (UTC)