Talk:Circassian beauty

Untitled
Has the author of the article ever heard about Pushkin's The Prisoner of Caucasus? Oh, never mind... --Ghirla-трёп- 07:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, there should be something in the article about the 19th century Russian obsessions with the Caucasus, and the beauty of its female inhabitants. Meowy 17:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Marx quote is incorrect
The Marx quote is in fact Marx quoting someone else - there is no indiciation that he agrees with it either.The article can be found here. He's quoting a Herr Hugo in order to criticise his historical school of law, and indeed he follows the quote about Circassians with "(Listen to the old man!)" - he is ridiculing the assertion.

I'd suggest that the Marx reference either be removed or heavily modified. R 79.75.158.71 (talk) 10:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Herr Hugo' is Gustav Hugo. Altered accordingly. Paul B (talk) 12:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I changed the intro
Where are reliable sources for this article's claims? Where is a reliable source for the alleged "distinctive Afro-like hair style" of the original Circassians?! To the contrary - in the following book "Edgar Allan Poe, Complete Poems edited by Thomas Ollive Mabbott (2000)" Mabbott writes when commenting on Poe's "Al Aaraaf":
 * "Circassy, or Circassia, the region of the Caucasus whence came the blonde beauties so much admired in Turkey".

A painting by the Frenchman artist Félix Auguste Clément about a Circassian woman in a Harem shows a woman with light hair. Even the veiled woman portrayed in by Gérôme in this article itself does not justify the article's claim. See also the following link:
 * http://www.thisweekinpalestine.com/details.php?id=2214&ed=144&edid=144

sincerely, 217.236.246.54 (talk) 21:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The afro-like hair style belongs to Barnum's Circassians, as is very clearly stated. Thomas Ollive Mabbott died in 1968. He was an expert on Poe, but that does not make him an expert on Circassians. There is a lot of recent writing on the Circassian beauties phenomenon. The Clément painting is just a standard piece of erotica that happens to be labelled as a Circassian. The vast majority of images that are specifically identified as images of Circassians depict dark haired women, and that was the convention. Paul B (talk) 23:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Barnam was "a showman knwon for his hoaxes" (Wikipedia). The fact that Mabbott died in 1968 and was an expert on Poe in no way whatsoever makes him a layman concerning Circassians. This article is in a very bad shape and will without any doubt have to be amended in the future.
 * PS Which vast majority of images are you talking about? Show the names of known painters and not simply advertising. One could also get the impression by the article that Voltaire and Byron had "Afro hair style" in mind - there is no such evidence whatsoever - not in their writing etc. 217.236.246.54 (talk) 23:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The only impression I get is that you can't read plain English. The article states as plain as day that "actual Circassian hairstyles bore no relation to Barnum's fantasy". And yes, being an expert on Poe does not make him a reliable source on Circassians. Please feel free to ask on the Reliable souces noticeboard. If you want other images, here are a few: Frederick Arthur Bridgman, A Circassian, 1881, JF Lewis Frank Millet. There is also the illustration that is already linked . Paul B (talk) 23:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * BTW, your link does not contain the Clement painting. I assume you meant this one.. Paul B (talk) 10:59, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * In the Ottoman Has dosens of anglo missionaries themselves from Europe, who could mainly appointed the ladies even the sultans sometimesy by such writtens. Plus, Even now, That lady in current picture looks not any Caucasian?, washed near the shores of albion? as ONLY im reading more, in reality (see not only female sex tourism but actual dating sites) many caucasoids seeks Turkish (Kurdish ie. of eastern backround) men whilst not ocassionally get no other than quick satisfactions. Divorce rates between them are top %99, however more tragic especially if they gained uk-us Visas, as a dropped fruit of holywood.(78.179.183.242 (talk) 16:16, 9 April 2011 (UTC)).

Baştürkoğlutürk ---my nationality isd my ip.

Mystery of Circassian beauties in America
It was thought in the 16th to early 19th centuries, a fairly small number of Circassian or Cherkessian workers and "beauties" are part of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade to North America. They were captured in warfare or harem brothels in the Levant or Persian Gulf regions through Turkish or Arabic speculators, then brought over to North Africa and West Africa and traded these people or advertised the "closeness" to white people to the European (mainly British, French or Spanish) buyers. Circassians are portrayed to have dark yet "beige" skin, wavy or straight hair, "Asiatic" or "Abyssinian" features, and been mistaken for lighter-skinned Africans in the eyes of an uneducated visitor who came to purchase or deal with Arabic slave traders. Circassian beauties were a popular choice for white male slave owners with an eye for "bride capture" as in "for sale" to be owned by another. I can only guess a small number of Circassian women lived under and married white American plantation owners, even bore children to them. Due to the ethnicity of Circassians or Cherkessians not typically seen as "white Nordic" or "Anglo-Saxon", the descendants of arranged marriages are likely being told of a "Cherkessian" beauty gave them the looks but may been mistaken as of being a Native American (an unrelated Cherokee people the most common type of Indian), was indeed a misnomer of "Cherkesses" getting mixed up with the "Cherokees". Is this the link to the ever popular trend of some white Americans of being mythically related to an "American Indian" or a female ancestor was a "Cherokee Princess" of exotic ethnoracial appearance? The origin of the hypodescent "Part-Indian" claim by many in North America can be attributed to a possibility of descending from a Circassian or Cherkessian beauty. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 14:23, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * As I said over on Talk:Cherokee, where you repeated your suggestion and rightly added that it is unfortunately OR, it is certainly an astute observation and sounds worth pursuing. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:39, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no evidence of Circassians or Georgians being trafficked to America because in North America our slave system was based on race. If you purchased a white woman from a Muslim slave trader and people found out you would be in serious trouble.  This is why I hate articles like this ... they attract fetishistic types.  Your Cherokee/Cherkess theory is really bizarre too.  As for our appearance: we look like exotic white people.  Our men are famous for being gallant and brave and were enslaved as soldiers ... a girl being sold (and it was usually by her family) was because of poverty.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 14:36, 10 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I have no idea if any Circassian women came to the USA, but it's possible and through other means: they were white, but not white enough for 19th century Anglo-American cultural perceptions. They were sold off in marriage in Europe and possibly, a few North American men in Europe obtained them through this method. They are reportedly light-skinned and sometimes had blond or light brown hair, but many had darker hair colors. 67.49.85.100 (talk) 18:31, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Ivo Andrić
I've moved this to Talk, because though it's interesting, it sticks out because it exists in a different historical context from the whole of the rest of the article and so stands out like a sore thumb. It is also very difficult to follow what is being said here, due to the oddity of the translation:


 * Ivo Andrić in The Damned Yard (1954) also notes Circassian beauty, but warns of the consequences:


 * [A Circassian], my brother, is a summer day, and not a woman. A summer day, and you won't know what is more beautiful, land or sky above her. [But...] It doesn't stay with a man; it will pour away like water; and when you had her, as if you never had anything. It has no memory and knows not of reason or soul or mercy.

Should 'it' be 'she' here. And who is issuing this 'warning', Andrić or one of his characters? Paul B (talk) 22:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't have appropriate literature, but it should be noted in the article that: 1) Circassian women were considered beautiful in the East too, and 2) their character was apparently not considered to be positive. This quote sums that up nicely.


 * It's one of the characters of course. Andric used 'it' in original. Perhaps 'that' would also be a good translation. Compare "she is a Wikipedian -> it is a Wikipedian" with "she doesn't stay with a man -> it doesn't stay with a man". Nikola (talk) 05:13, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm assuming that the novel is set in the past, in which case the character is presumably intended to represent attitudes of the time. Paul B (talk) 12:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, in 19th century. Nikola (talk) 20:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Fact versus legend
The article is in sore need of some historical (as opposed to literary) sources. It makes for a very unbalanced article if the literary reception of a topic is given far more space than the topic itself. For example, what is the reason for calling it the "legend of Circassian women"? Is there any evidence that what Voltaire says is not true? To me, the Voltaire quote sounds like a statement of fact, and not like an allusion to a legend. Chl (talk) 19:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It's impossible to "prove" whether some women are more beautiful than others. Paul B (talk) 20:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What Voltaire says are all statements of fact that could potentially be verified: that they were trained, that they were traded, that the sultans liked them. Sure, whether they were beautiful is ultimately a matter of opinion, but if the sultans indeed spent large amounts of money for them, that would be pretty relevant; then the story of the Circassian beauties would not just be a legend, but it would have a basis in historical fact. It makes a big difference IMO whether "the West believed in fictional stories of Circassian beauties" or whether "the sultans thought them to be very beautiful and went to great lengths to acquire them, and reports of this phenomenon spread to the West." Chl (talk) 11:13, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone doubts that it is based in historical fact. The word 'legend' here is not intended to mean that it is made up, just that a particular "mythos" about beauty, race, slavery and sexuality was created around the facts of Circassian concubinage. I think the lede section makes it clear that Circassian concubinage was a real phenomenon. This article is essentially about the legendary aspects of this in western Orientalism. However, more detail on the historical facts would certainly not go amis. Paul B (talk) 12:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm Circassian and we look like exotic white people. We get a little upset when people don't get that yeah: the Turks had huge slave markets and the Greeks did before them.  Circassian women were turned into a fetish and the gallantry and horsemanship of our menfolk had both genders being sold into slavery because the Russians were also trying to exterminate us.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 14:44, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

"Inferior" in the article?
Wikipedia's article says "The article also claimed that children born to the "inferior" black concubines were being killed." The New York [Daily Times] article does not use the word inferior. Why does that word appear in the Wikipedia article? Boris B (talk) 02:28, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It's an example of scare quotes. The quotation marks are designed to indicate that we don't present the that idea black children are inferior as a fact. Paul B (talk) 15:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Like wise the The fact: Of the ALBIONs' however still, Despite the a fact that worlwide killings aiming the COVERINGS of the near eastern Women are no longer exist, (possibly by the kickingof western missionaries by the solarium Technology...) and its not only the suppossedly AFRO belief they are they are damned Due to their lackings and odd looks but un fortunately still a common serene practise untold from Africa to Turkey, Even to China.Kissser:meadow B(78.186.154.11 (talk) 15:53, 26 April 2011 (UTC)).


 * I couldn't have put it better myself. Paul B (talk) 15:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Beer?
They were typically identified by the distinctive hairstyle, which was held in place by the use of beer.

— Who wrote this, P.T. Barnum? Sca (talk) 21:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Beer was commonly used as a sort of prmitive hair-gel. Try it yourself. Paul B (talk) 12:19, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I was sceptical too, assumed it was vandalism, and was about to remove it, but I decided to check the source. I found it on the Internet Archive site. It's mentioned in two places. Here's the first:
 * "In a short time there were a score of imitations of the “original,” and by the late 1870s the formula for constructing a Circassian Beauty had become standardized. It is doubtful that the frizzled Afro-like hair, which became the exhibits’ trademark, had anything to do with the appearance of real Circassians. Those who became “beauties” had to engage in the unappealing task of washing their hair in beer without rinsing it, then teasing it to take on the appearance of the original fraud."

And the second:
 * "Another attempt to revive the Circassian presentation and to pump up a class of “born freak” of minor interest was the casting of albino Caucasians in the role of Circassians. This innovation apparently met with some success in the late 1880s and 1890s. The extreme white skin of the albino fit nicely with the idea of purity of race; some albino “harem escapees” let their hair grow, dyed it dark and soaked it in stale beer."

So, yes. Beer. Ormewood (talk) 02:59, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Russian and Russian-language sources
Someone should add some content about Russian representations of "Circassian beauties" -- so far this article shows an information-bias towards Western European sources, which is somewhat strange, given classical Circassia's location. A good place to start would be Lermontov's "A Hero of Our Time", which prominently features a Circassian beauty in its first chapter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.149.21.28 (talk) 19:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Two different things
It seems to me that there are essentially 2 different things that this article talks about: 1) the Circassian concubines of the Ottomans and the legends about them in the West; 2) P.T. Barnum's sideshow attractions. This last thing about P.T. Barnum seems rather obscure and possibly irrelevant, only tangentially related to the actual Circassian people. It also seems very US-centric. Shouldn't we split the article into 2? And if P.T. Barnum's "Circassians" aren't relevant enough to have their own article why should such trivia be included here? What is its relevancy?

Secondly, some time ago this article focused a bit too much on the "Orientalist legend" of the Circassian beuaties, it was almost as if Circassians are a legendary people that didn't exist in reality. In fact the "Orientalist legend" is based on the actual history surrounding the Ottoman Imperial Harem, the end of the slavery in the Ottoman Empire, and the ethnic cleansing (alleged?) of the Circassians from the Russian Empire, whence the Circassians found refuge with the Ottomans and gave up teir daughters to the Ottoman harems using a loophole the the interpretation of the Shariah at the time and in the Ottoman administrative law. Thus almost all of the wives of the Sultans and the Imperial Princes in the 19th and early 20th century were either Circassians or Abkhazians or Ubykhs (related peoples, ssometimes included in "Circassians"). I think the only exceptions are: one of the wives of the last Sultan (Mehmed VI), who was Turkish; the mother of Mehmed V, who was Bosnian, and, possibly, Tir-i-Mujgan (the mother of Abdulhamid II) was either Armenian or Circassian.

I think focussing excessively on the "Orientalist legend" makes this article to seem less-than-factual. As an aside, and I know this is some form of hearsay, most of the Circassian people I've met personally have very light skin (especially the women) and often light eyes, but darker hair. There are pictures on the net with the Circassian protest in Istanbul regarding the Sochi Olympics and you can convice yourselves what Circassians look like in real life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F0E:5180:9E1:E0D6:B828:A59D:87A3 (talk) 07:48, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

That's a nice comment with some sense but it IS a bit of Orientalism and. Beyond that this article would simply be a fetish and not the kind of a attention we need. What would be nice is a little harsher condemnation of the genocide of indigenous people in the Caucasus - all of whom tend to look good and work hard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 14:50, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

The thing is that the European Orientalist legend was based on a sort of native "mythology" within the Muslim world about the beauty of the Circassian women, which in turn had the very real life effect that the House of Osman actively sought such women for their harems and thus later members of the Ottoman dynasty are descended partially from Circassian. The whole thing also figured into the complex relationship between the Ottomans and the Russians. It also affected Ottoman internal politics - for instance, after Abdulaziz was dethroned by a sort of coup, the brother of one of his wives, who was Circassian and was a Pasha (his name was Çerkes Hasan Paşa, literally "the Circassian Hasan") took it personally and burst into the government bulding killing several members of the Ottoman cabinet. So the European legend was not manufactured by the Europeans but was only a reflection of the fascination with Circassian women that already existed within the Muslim world and which came to influence Ottoman internal and external politics.2A02:2F0E:52C0:CF2:6C12:FF3:6FC2:A4F3 (talk) 17:24, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Circassians as a collective name for North / Northwest Caucasians
I believe this article only considers Circassians=Adyghe. To cite User Listofpeople, "the term 'Circassian' is referred to include any people of Pontic-speaking Northwest Caucasian (Ubykh, Adyghe, Abkhaz, and Abaza) descent who have strong genetic and cultural affinity.  However, other North Caucasians, namely the Vainakh, Ossetian, Karachay, Balkar as well as the Daghestani (particularly non-Turkic Caucasian Avars, Dargins, Lezgians, and Laks) were also considered to be Circassian in the Ottoman Empire.   ". In numerous Ottoman harems women were not only Abkhazians but also Georgians. For example on Turkish wikipedia, there are two separate articles called Çerkesler (Kuzey Kafkasyalılar) (Circassians: North Caucasians) and Çerkesler (Adığeler) (Circassians: Adyghes)

Thisisnotalovesong (talk) 09:51, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
 * This is true. I was the one who wrote some of the sentences you mention. Correctly, Circassians=Adyghe but both Turks and Russians fudge it a lot. Feel free to add it to the page.--Calthinus (talk) 20:25, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
 * , "Circassian" is the name given to Adyghes. "Adyghe" is a Circassian native term, and the English name for the Adyghe people is "Circassian". Because most migrants from the Caucasus were Circassians, the Turks used the term to refer to all North Caucasians, however this changes nothing. It is still, in scholarly sources or in daily archival use, the name for the Circassian people, and other people have their own names. A nation can't even have a name? What even is the logic behind this? Sincerely, Adigabrek Talk 20:02, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Circassian beauty teased hair
Male Georgian Circassian folk dancers often wear black billowy sheepskin hats. Westerners may know them as "Cossack hats." They bear a ressemblance to the "moss" hairstyle of the side show. 2603:7080:D541:B700:4C58:7FA4:93B0:BFC6 (talk) 01:20, 1 December 2022 (UTC)