Talk:Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps

Images saved from article deletion
I've got two images here from the outcome of Articles for deletion/Raidillon. I figure you guys would know better than I would on where/how to place them. --Wafulz 22:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)



Discussion merged from Masta Kink (Pyrope 14:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC))
It is hard to believe that the German drivers Stuck and Mass talked to each other in English. In German the words for human body-parts and parts of a car's body are quite different. Refering to human remains one would say "Körperteile" whereas exterior car parts are "Karosserieteile", "Verkleidungsteile" or simply "Autoteile". The German expressions for human-body and car-body simply do not match like they do in English. In German a car doesn't have a body, it rather has a "Karosserie" or a "Verkleidung". They might have used the German word for parts which is in both cases just "Teile". So maybe Stuck told Mass to watch out for parts around Masta. Only that way Mass had two options to consider. But who knows, maybe they really used to talk English and not their mother-tongue which happens to be the same. At least this is not impossible. It would be interesting to find out. Another point is that some sources state Stuck and Mass shared a car in this race. In 1973 Stuck drove a BMW togehter with Chris Amon and Jochen Mass had a contract with a Ford team where he joined forces with John Fitzpatrick. This adds further doubts to the story.

Crashes of 1966 and 1973
I am afraid this account about the Masta kink contains some factual inaccuracies.

When Jackie Stewart crashed his car during the first lap of the 1966 F1 GP, it happened in the Burnenville turn, which is a very fast and long turn. If fact, that year, when the start was given, the cars started in dry race condition. However, due to the length of the track, it often happened at Francorchamps that some parts of the track could be wet while others were not. This is exactly what happened that year. When the cars started, there was a rainstorm over the hamlet of Burnenville and the track became wet at this place, but it was still dry on the start line. During the first lap of the race, the drivers entered Burnenville almost at full speed only to suddenly find a wet track. If I recall well, at least 4 drivers crashed, among which J. Steward. His car ended indeed upside down, but not in the cellar and not even in the courtyard of the farm (which by the way lays on the left of the track and – at least – 3 or 4 meters below the level of the track). But since there were several cars involved, it took several minutes before one could extract Jackie from his car. And I can easily think that for him these few minutes have seemed to be hours. Since them, he really hated the track. Another driver, Jo Siffert if I recall well, was also in a very uncomfortable position. The front of his car (including the front wheels) was over the farm courtyard, while the back was still on the track, the whole being in an unstable balance. I can’t recall who the other drivers involved were, but Graham Hill and Jo Bonnier could have been involved as well. In fact, other drivers too got crashes during that race and only 5 managed to get points. Altough a few more actually finished the race, but with insufficient distance covered.


 * Stewart was rescued by Bob Bondurant, after Bondo borrowed a spanner from a spectator in order to remove the BRM's steering wheel. Mr Larrington (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

With respect to the 24 hours race of 1973, there were indeed 3 drivers killed in two distinct crashes. The first one took place in Malmedy corner (just before the Masta straight) and not in the Masta kink. During the night, one driver lost control of his car and the car behind him crashed into it, both being killed almost instantly. I can't remember their names anymore.


 * Hans-Peter Joisten and Roger Dubos were killed at Malmedy; the other 1973 fatality was that of Massimo Larini at Les Combes. Mr Larrington (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The other crash indeed occurred in the Masta kink, where an older gentleman driver (if I remember well, he was almost 60 y.o.), Léon Denier (or maybe Dernier) lost control in the kink and rolled his car up an electrical pole. I can’t however remember whether a marshall was involved in this accident as well. --Lebob-BE 00:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Léon Dernier, who used sometimes to race under the pseudonym "Eldé". Finished 3rd at Le Mans in 1962 with the equally-pseudonymous "Beurlys" (real name Jean Blaton). He was killed in the 1969 24H while driving a Mazda. Mr Larrington (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Track record
The track record is the fastest lap not the pole time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.59.75.167 (talk) 20:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Small edit
Removed incorrect reference to 3 drivers being killed in 1972 24 Hours of Spa. This in fact happened in 1973. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.65.199 (talk) 23:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Lap records?
What constitutes a lap record?

The right panel states that Chris Amon set the lap record for the old circuit in 1970 in a March with a time of 3:27.4. This may be the fastest lap in a Formula One car, but is not the fastest lap.

The body text under the section "The Triangle" states the lap record belongs to Henri Pescoloro. I've done a bit of research to try and confirm this claim and believe this refers to the 1973 Spa 1000km, during which he clocked a time of 3:13.4 in a Matra MS670. However, I've found another source which claims that during Friday practice for the same race, Jacky Ickx did a lap in 3:12.7 in a Ferrari 312PB. I've not been able to verify this anywhere else but if it's true does that count as a lap record? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazysnailboy (talk • contribs) 15:49, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Practice and qualifying laps do not count towards lap record. But if the Pescorolo Matra lap was recorded during a race then sure it can supersede the Amon lap. --Falcadore (talk) 21:02, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Pescarolo's lap was indeed recorded during the race and is still the official record of the "old" track. --Lebob-BE (talk) 21:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Current circuit record?
The fastest lap on the Formula One website is given as 1:45.108 by Kimi Raikkonen. Click here to see. In the article infobox it's given as 1:47.263 by Sebastian Vettel. --Peroxwhy2gen (talk) 22:47, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The circuit has changed since Kimi Raikkonen set that record, essentially, it's a different circuit. --Falcadore (talk) 23:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

But surely the Formula 1 website would have changed the lap record to 1:47.263 since the same circuit will be used this year as well. --Peroxwhy2gen (talk) 04:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Welcome to the realisation that the official F1 website is not actually accurate a lot of the time. --Falcadore (talk) 05:44, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not agree with the Vettel fastest lap, I think that the official information shuld be used, the page has different lap records for each layout, but not for the pre 2007 layout. In other circuits with minimal changes on chicanes and other stuff the F1 "official" lap record stands, why this one should be different? Not make any sense. Add another lap record for the pre 2007 layout or change all the circuits that has the "official" F1 record for the "non official". For me putting here Vettel at the fastest lap is not serious. 10:32, 5 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.170.237.183 (talk)
 * It wasn't a minimal change, it added a couple of seconds to the lap times. Also, F1's official records are not exactly known for their reliability - why should we give preference to a source of known unreliability? Surely it is up to F1 to pick up their act rather than up to Wikipedia to perpetuate inaccurate information. --Falcadore (talk) 10:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

All right with that, We must create a pre 2004 circuit. But the information is incorrectas as is shown now, if you read this page it says: Fastest lap from 1979-Present, Sebastien Vettel, that is totally incorrect, between 1979-present the fastest lap is from Raikkonen! Whatever the canges made, between that years the lap record is the lowest time between those years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.170.237.183 (talk) 09:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, the stat does not say fastest lap, it says lap record. Spa has been modified many many times since the the circuits major redevelopment in 1979. To detail each iteration of the circuit's lap record (and by the way Raikkonen would not be the fastest lap since 1979 you should bear in mind) would make the infoxbox impractically long.
 * Vettel is the lap record holder. Deal with it. --Falcadore (talk) 19:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


 * See Silverstone Circuit. Formula One recognizes Mark Webber's 1:33 as the lap record in 2013, even though the layout changed even more minimally in 2011 than when Spa changed theirs. Monaco opened up a corner in 2015 that made the circuit a whole 3 metres shorter, but the FIA still classified it as a new layout and thus whoever got the fastest lap in 2015 is the current lap record holder. Twirlypen (talk) 06:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Circuit before 2007
I think we should also add the circuit record before the 2007 Formula One season when the circuit length was 6.976 km. --Peroxwhy2gen (talk) 02:37, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * We'd need one pre-2004 as well - the chicane has been redesigned twice. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 07:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * More than twice. --Falcadore (talk) 10:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, sort of. There are several configurations in Forix, but the actual track has only changed twice (since the chicane was added) - the other changes are to the pit entry. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 12:25, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Track Map
Currently, the three maps showing the circuit at three different times in the past. The one in the infobox is a different orientation to the other two. I do not know if we have a default orientation for F1 circuits (north to the top, or maybe start/finish to the bottom for example)and maybe it would vary from circuit to circuit. But I do think that within an article all the maps should have the same orientation. I do not know how difficult this would be to achieve, but I think we should aim for it. Kiltpin (talk) 12:31, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That would be nice, but it's unlikely to happen as no-one is producing modifying maps anymore. --Falcadore (talk) 14:29, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

I also have to say that there are some discrepancies in the turn names, particularly turn 8 which is called Rivage in the Formula 1 official website, but is called Bruxelles here. There are places that call turn 7 Malmedy, and other that call turn 9 Malmedy. And so on. http://www.formula1.com/races/in_detail/belgium_875/circuit_diagram.html Thanks Carloseduardo (talk) 01:38, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Images are generally owned by their original authors so any mods would likely have to be done by them, and as mentioned the map composers generally no longer contribute regularly to wikipedia. --Falcadore (talk) 03:53, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Sample fast laps
Can we please do something good with this table? A random selection of fast laps from races only held in the last five years of one of the older and most famous racetracks in the world adds nothing encyclopedic to the article. Fastest laps without context are a significant statistic to individual races (and are as much if not more an achievement of driver rather than car), but not to the circuit. The universally accepted statistic for individual laps at a race track is lap record. A table of those would be more valuable to this article than a collection of fast laps. --Falcadore (talk) 03:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

lap records from article
There is a little by-[lay around the addition of this data

Rather than the in/out approach, it should be discussed on the talk page on what is relevant to be added to the article. — billinghurst  sDrewth  13:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Established lap record format can be read in the circuits infoxbox. It should be noted that qualifying has never counted towards Lap Records, and I note the table above seems to be composed of qualifying laps. It should also be noted lap records belong priarily to drivers rather than cars or teams. Here's an example for Spa-Francorchamps:

--Falcadore (talk) 15:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * That table started life as a list of "fastest laps", rather than official records. In that case, qualifying does count (unlike free practice), since the car has to be legal for a qualy time to be set. In any case, I have no objection for the table to be re-compiled and re-sourced, if that would make it better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.191.160.108 (talk) 00:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You're missing the point. Lap records (which in a century or so have never included qualifying laps) are recognised as being notable. They are constantly referred to and there is a well established criteria as to what a lap record is. A collection of fastest laps is just that, a collection of laps which you've decided by your own methods what is good and what is not. That is original research and wikipedia does not do that. --Falcadore (talk) 00:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think "own methods" come into it. A lap is either faster than other laps or it is not. It's not subjective. In any case, I'd say they remain until they are replaced with lap records. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.191.161.225 (talk) 19:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes there is. There is the accepted method and the one you have just made up. By your own admission you've excluded practice laps, but not qualifying, which is a completely new and made-up method not supported by practice. Lap records do not, and never have included qualifying laps. It is just that simple. Qualifying laps are compiled seperately as qualifying lap records and refered to as such. --Falcadore (talk) 02:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

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Inaccurate picture


This track map is inaccurate, even contradicted by the one in the header. The bus stop is reversed and the Source straight is curvy, for some reason. Is there a better version of this?  HarryKernow.  Talk. 21:08, 23 January 2019 (UTC)


 * As the caption says, that is the circuit as at 2004. [] Ian Dalziel (talk) 10:36, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Huh, that's really interesting. I didn't know that they updated the bus stop like that but a quick look at some lap footage confirms it.  HarryKernow.  Talk. 04:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Unable to find and change link to homepage
The infobox has a link to the French homepage rather than the English one. I changed in the Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps. But I can't find the link in the infofox. Can someone help? The correct English link is. Will (Talk - contribs) 07:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it was picking up the website from the linked Wikidata item: (https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q172851) I've overridden it by adding the "website" parameter to the infobox. DH85868993 (talk) 10:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Kemmel
At what point did the straight to Les Combes become officially known as the "Kemmel Straight"? The track map at the top of the page uses the "Kemmel Straight" name, whereas the track layout history section refers to (what I thought) was the actual situation - that Kemmel refers to the kink to the right after Radillon, not the whole straight. The "Kemmel Straight" naming seems like one of those things that's become accepted wisdom due to it being referred to as such so frequently, whatever the official situation may be. Craig P Wilson (talk) 13:50, 2 June 2024 (UTC)