Talk:City of London School/Archive 1

Comments
This article badly needs some references. When it has these then it would be a B. Article looks very good. Victuallers 11:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

old school with impressive old boys list. Could be a B with better refs. Victuallers 16:38, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

On 2 September 2005, this article was made a showcase article at the Schools Wikiportal "as it has been identified as one of the best high school (sic) articles on Wikipedia". So maybe it should go up a grade. Chelseaboy (talk) 18:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

References added and cleaned up. Gallery addition looks good. I earlier added some pictures. I hope the picture readjustments meet with everyones favor. Yes, a Yank, but a descendant of the founder John Carpenter's elder brother also named John Carpenter.

John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Jrcrin001 (talk) 00:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Current pupils and Old Citizens on Wikipedia
Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: City of London School has been created for all current pupils and Old Citizens on Wikipedia. Timrollpickering 14:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

To add yourself to this list, insert the following on your user page:

Alternatively, you can add the following template to your user page (this will automatically add you to the category): User CLS



Miscellaneous
True or false: they plan on renaming this article "City of London School for Boys" to avoid sexism. 66.245.17.89 00:51, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

False

Did Joe Strummer go here?


 * No he didn't; he went to the Freemen's school which was somewhere in Surrey, I think. Masud 04:28, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Staff listings
Is it really important to have a list of current staff? I don't think so, they're all fairly non-notable, but interesting trivia for old boys (like me) but I could find that out on the CLSB website anyway. If there are no serious objections, I'll remove the list of teachers. Masud 01:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree - best to remove this list. (another Old Citizen) Bwithh 03:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

NOOOOO!!!!!!!!! The list is awesome —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.203.212.209 (talk • contribs) 10:50, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

It has Mr. Martin on it and he owns all! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.189.100.65 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Same with Mr. Ellis-Ress - He is a legend

Pictures
The article has a really good selection of pictures, but I think the formatting lets them down: they come one after the other in a long line, I think they'd look better if there was some variation in their placement. I shoved this together in a spare moment: User:Driller_thriller/Lipsum It can be done better, but this is the idea I want to put across. Driller thriller 15:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that's a lot better. But maybe you should put it in historical order? So the Milk Street ones and then the Victoria Embankment ones. I like the way you've staggered them, and put one on the left, and another on the right. The Coat of Arms is also a good image, but maybe it doesn't belong all the way at the top of the article, where one of the main points of discussion is the various buildings the school occupied.


 * In any case, what you have done is an improvement on the current page. --Masud 23:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the delay, it's been a busy couple of weeks; I made the edits. Hope everyone approves. Driller thriller 16:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

that's better, it looks nice —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.188.159.83 (talk • contribs) 19:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I've gone on to put the pictures in chronological order, and have had to slightly resize them so the page's layout isn't disrupted. I think it's important to see the pictures at their relevant points in the article. --Masud 16:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I added a few photos and adjusted them and the current potos for the article. When I have some time I will add some references.

John R. Carpenter Jrcrin001 (talk) 07:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Does City Count as a Public School?

 * Well, does it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.250.128 (talk • contribs)
 * The City of London School, which derived from a mediæval foundation of 1442, and was reconstituted by a private Act of Parliament in 1835, was held to be a public school by the Divisional Court in the case of Blake vs. City of London in 1886. Yes, it does. Driller thriller 00:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Like the Corporation of London itself, the Corporation's schools are probably sui generis Bwithh 22:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Absolutely not. Drillerthriller thinks it does because he went there and enjoys speaking of himself in the third person. --SandyDancer 21:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm an ex-pupil and I agree that it is definitely not a public school. I mean, look at the fees... Pneumataultramicroscopicsiliconvolcaneosis is the longest word in the English language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pneumataultramicroscopicsiliconvolcaneosis (talk • contribs) 09:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a public school on almost any definition. It's on an ancient foundation, it is old by school standards even taking the date of its refoundation by Act of Parliament in the reign of William IV, it has always been fee paying, it was authoritatively determined to be a public school by the Divisional Court in the case of Blake v City of London in 1886, and it is a member of the Headmasters Conference. Chelseaboy (talk) 18:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

POV and references tags
A lot of claims are made about certain teachers being notable on this article - this needs referencing or should be taken out altogether as unsouced POV Bwithh 22:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Where 1 is 'a lot'? If the word notable were removed from the heading that would seem to resolve this particular problem, as some seem attached to the list (see comments above). Also I don't see why the article is tagged 'unreferenced' at the top, as there are 2 refs given. roundhouse 20:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, perhaps I should have been more specific - the entire section regarding notable teaching staff are red linked, implying that they are notable enough for their own articles. This section is also unreferenced. If the teachers really are encyclopedically notable, references should be introduced. Otherwise they should be removed Bwithh 21:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * OK - remove the red links then. I'd have thought that some staff notable at the school but not more widely could be listed without any great controversy. (Google reveals quite a lot about the head Bryan Bass if anyone cares to pull it together, on a Hymers Hull site.) roundhouse 01:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Levin as head
I recall that when Dancey left in 1998 (when I finished at CLS), there was going to be another head who had to pull out late in the day because of illness and I don't think Levin arrived until 1999. Is anyone able to verify this or not? Timrollpickering 20:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah that's true: Grossel was temporary head; I seem to remember that the proper replacement head was ill or something, and in the end never turned up. --Masud 22:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Academics
Why is there an American-style heading in an article about an English school? Surely in British English academics is the plural of academic (ie, a scholarly person) and is therefore very misleading as a title as this section is not about the academic staff but about the subjects taught at the school. Perhaps curriculum might be a more appropriate heading. Dahliarose 00:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yep, I'm up for that. I'll go ahead and do it. --Masud 00:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Radcliffe an old boy?
Isn't Daniel Radcliffe an old boy now? It's the difference between him being in the current notable pupils and the notable old citizens section. --Masud 10:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Age wise he should be in his last year. Timrollpickering 22:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I've removed his name from the old citizens section, and ensured he remains on the current pupils section. --Masud 06:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No, he'll leave in September.


 * He has left —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.141.53.202 (talk) 22:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

Toby Smyth
Is notable as being goalkeeper for ISFA U16 team Discuss... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.141.53.202 (talk) 17:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

The list of old boys
Even though all these old citizens are notable (e.g. they have their own article), this list is becoming far too large. Either we narrow the list down, and link to a page that has them all, or simply remove the whole lot, and just have the link. What do people think? --Masud 20:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * keep them there. so what if the list is long? does it really take that much more effort to scroll down past it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.201.175.25 (talk • contribs) 21:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I just think that the humongous section of non-prose "bolted on", as it were, to the end of the article detracts from the quality of the article itself. Whereas a page that is purely a list only is fine, as that is what people will expect when they go to the page. Furthermore, this article is about the school itself, not those who have been to it. Masud 00:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

First school in england to teach science
The school website does not claim to have been the first school to teach science, it in fact only claims to have been the first to teach paractical chemistry. Is there any further back up for the actual science claim? Ramw2 22:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The printed school histories referenced at the end of the article make and substantiate this claim. The most detailed account is in The City of London School, A. E. Douglas-Smith (1st edition 1937, 2nd edition 1965).  Other schools taught classical authors like Aristotle, which could be construed as science, but the current (March 2008) text is more specific than this, and accurate:  "It was the first school in England to include science on the curriculum and to include scientific experiments as part of its teaching." Chelseaboy (talk) 18:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Notable pupils and alumni
I'm going to make some changes to the list of "Notable current pupils" and "Notable former pupils". First, someone has deemed Alex Watson notable because of who his sister is. I disagree, so am going to remove his name. Second, Daniel Radcliffe is the only name in a list which could, in theory, include a British Prime Minister (Herbert Henry Asquith) and a two well-regarded English authors (Julian Barnes and Kingsley Amis). I agree that Radcliffe is notable, but the list deserves a few more names. --Popeyedoyle 22:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:City of London Arms.png
The image Image:City of London Arms.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --23:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Football
I think that I'm right in saying that City of London switched from Rugby Football to Association Football in the 1990's. Such a change is quite unusual and surely deserves a mention? Millbanks (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It was certainly exclusively football for the lower years when I started (early 1994) with no rugby at all (the higher years had a more varied choice - I did sailing) which suggests it hadn't been for quite some time - it would be strange for a school to change overnight. I'm not sure how unusual this is though - a lot of private schools don't do rugby for some or all of their pupils (my prep school only taught it to a few for instance). Timrollpickering (talk) 23:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that the changeover was gradual, over a few years. Millbanks (talk) 18:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Picture placement
Tbo 157 I restored the previous edit to remove the large gap that appears when the picture of the statue of John Carpenter went to the right. I did not see any other changes.

Any concerns or thoughts? John R. Carpenter Jrcrin001 (talk) 18:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Wierd. IE7 does not show TOC box but IE6 does. Firefox shows TOC. Any way to move it to a better location?

Thanks Tbo for pointing this out to me! John R. Carpenter Jrcrin001 (talk) 03:59, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. Ive had similar problems before.  It seems that such problems can sometimes be caused by ad blocking software.  Tbo 157   (talk)  19:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I found out that if I was not logged in I could see TOCs. I played with preferences and reset defaults. That seems to have fixed the problem for me. But, it took two tries!

The question I now have is why the TOC does not word wrap or apply like a picture. If you have a lot of sections that TOC grows and puts sizeable gap in the article. Even using hide, it is distracting. John R. Carpenter Jrcrin001 (talk) 05:27, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Tbo, Now I see the problem you have described. With the complete TOC (Content) the History section gets pushed downward. When TOC is in the hide position, a large gap appears as if the TOC is in the expanded or full position. I will see what I can find.
 * John R. Carpenter
 * Jrcrin001 (talk) 05:34, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, if any image is just under the section (left or right) below where the TOC engages, then the sections fails to revert when TOC - Contents opens or closes. By removing the image from that critical spot, the TOC and following section contracts normally. This may be a framing error for Wikipedia. When the TOC is closed or in the "hide" position, the article looks good for printing. When TOC is open or in "show" position then the gap is reduced. Not perfect but a little better.  Thoughts or comments?
 * John R. Carpenter
 * Jrcrin001 (talk) 05:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC) Jrcrin001 (talk) 05:53, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * YEAH! The following code is new (2007) and not well documented. Position is critical. It can not be top line if an info box is next. Spacing is needed. The code is "" .  I got lucky and found it. It works in the middle also.
 * John R. Carpenter
 * Jrcrin001 (talk) 07:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

H'mmm, still a problem with the large gap because of the standard TOC placement. I'll watch and see how this works out! Jrcrin001 (talk) 22:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't see any gaps. Tbo 157   (talk)   11:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought I fixed that problem on my end ... I see the TOC with a large gap above with the pic of John Carpenter to the right under the infobox. I'll go check my settings again.  Thanks again for pointing this out Tbo!  Jrcrin001 (talk) 16:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. Tbo 157   (talk)   13:59, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Article improvement drive
I would like to help in getting this article to at least good article status. User:Wehwalt has kindly provided a detailed review of the article at Peer review/City of London School/archive1 and I would like to thank the user for this.

Any user, who would like to help in improving the article, are welcome to provide their input or make any improvements they see fit to the article.

I would also like to ask any user, if they have access to the book - The City of London School, A. E. Douglas-Smith (1st edition 1937, 2nd edition 1965) so that the history section can be expanded.

Thanks. Tbo 157  (talk)   16:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Useful resources: WikiProject Schools, Good article criteria

I will list the improvements I plan on making for every section and I would like to ask for opinions from other users.


 * I have started by making the minor improvements which have been suggested. I have ticked off the minor improvements made at Peer review/City of London School/archive1.  Any comments are welcome.

Facilities

One of the suggestions which have been made in the review is to say something about the school's facilities. I would like to ask user's opinions on which facilities should be mentioned to avoid an endless list. The facilities are listed on the school website and I have provided a summary of all the facilities below. I may have missed some out.


 * Sports facilities: Multi purporse indoor sports hall, fencing salle, squash courts, 25 metre swimming pool, conditioning room, playing fields/athletics tracks at Grove Park.


 * Music facilities: Ensemble rooms, rehearsal rooms, music technology lab.


 * Other facilities: Great hall including organ, playgrounds, Winterflood Theatre, Coulson Studio, rifle range (CCF).

Curriculum

I have removed the list of subjects not offered as I can't think of any reasons why this is notable.

Tbo 157  (talk)   16:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

School Uniforms

I have now rewritten the final few sentences of the school uniforms section as suggested. However I am not too sure if the issue raised has been addressed by this rewrite so opinions are welcome.

School life

I will work on expanding the houses section. In terms of what else can be included, does anyone have any ideas? I was thinking the ethos and aims of the school. WikiProject Schools has a list of good articles related to schools and so this might help.

Lead

The lead should summarise the article as suggested in WP:Lead. However it is not easy to summarise the complex history of the school in the lead.

Tbo 157  (talk)   13:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Claim of first school to teach English Literature
Hi. Just a note to anyone editing this article that I have removed the following sentence:

"it was also the first school to teach English literature (and not just classical literature)"

as I cannot find any references for this and I am not satisfied that the sources provided include this claim. Please feel free to point out any references if you find any. If the source is a book, I would recommend that page numbers are included. Thanks. Tbo 157  (talk)   17:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Further Improvements
Hi all. Although this article has now been passed as a GA, some minor issues were hilighted by the GA reviewer. The main points are:


 * The lead which could be more focussed
 * The headmasters section which could be in more depth
 * The WW2 section which could also be in more depth

Thanks. Tbo 157  (talk)   16:54, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Congrats on the promotion, btw.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:11, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I must also thank User:SilkTork, User:Wehwalt and all the other editors of this article who helped to make this article a GA.  Tbo 157   (talk)   20:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Charity Commission in 1547
I don't have access to any sources but I'm not convinced by this edit. What exactly happened in 1547? Perhaps the first two sentences should be changed to this?: "A report published by the Charity Commission in 1823 reveals that over the centuries, the expenses of the boys' education vastly exceeded the income from the bequest due to the diminishing purchasing power of money, and that the funding for four boys in the City of London had been discontinued in 1547 as a result." Open4D (talk) 13:58, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Guildhall Chapel and Library were forfeited under the Chantries Act in 1547. The funding for the boys were discontinued at the same time.  1823 is when the investigation was caried out by the Charity Commission which lead to the realisation of the losses.  It also lead the Corporation of London to realise that it had taken, "great pains...by searching in the archives of the corporation and other places for the will of John Carpenter, without effect".  They should have been looking for the will of John Don which would have specified what the Corporation should do.  This lead to various arguments about how the bequest money shoul be spent.  Were they entitled to make only secific payments for children's education and support and keep the surplus etc.  In 1826, the council adopted what was suuggested in a report by a select committee of the City Lands Committee.  This was to spend the bequest money to benefit a larger number of boys.

Im not quite sure how to fit this into the prose whilst keeping the good article requirements. Could someone try and insert this into the article without compromising the GA requirements? Thanks. Tbo 157  (talk)   00:57, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Good Schools Guide quote
The quote in the lead "The Good Schools Guide described it as a "Very urban, very happening, very cosmopolitan school that achieves high standards without undue pressure and produces independent, outward-looking boys." comes across as spammy and WP:PEACOCK. This is not really encyclopedic or WP:LEAD material.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 09:07, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Lists of names
Lists of names in this article should be sourced in accordance with WP:BLP. As there is no way of constantly maintaining linked articles, this applies to names which have a Wikipedia article as well as those that do not. Any name listed with no verifiable citations should be removed. Refer to WP:NLIST for guidance. Fæ (talk) 18:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

To John R. Carpenter Jrcrin001: DAVID RAYNER SAYS: Darren Burn was most certainly in The Insomniac (1970). He is listed on the IMDb in the cast list. You gave two links to two different films with the same title, the other one being a foreign film made in Singapore. Well, of course, he wasn't in that one. As for Darren, he was once (in the late 1960's and early 1970's), the famous face of Heinz Baked Beans, being the little boy in the ITV film commercials seen numerous times in millions of homes, before becoming even more famous as the son of EMI executive Colin Burn, who spent millions (at today's prices) launching his talented ex-choir boy son as the British answer to Jimmy Osmond in 1973, a disastrous and misguided enterprise that eventually ended in Darren's suicide at a young age. I suppose you're too young to remember 1973 and all the fuss over Darren Burn, with the television crews following him everywhere. Of course, with you being in America, you wouldn't. But he was famous in Great Britain. Darren was a pupil at the City of London School from September, 1972, aged 11, to September, 1977, aged 16. I certainly think that Darren Burn was / is notable enough to have his name added to the list of famous ex pupils. Read and see all about Darren here: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1330630442&ref=ts —Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidRayner (talk • contribs) 08:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Facebook and IMDB are not considered quality reliable sources to make statements about the personal lives of living people. Refer to RS and the archives of RSN. Fæ (talk) 09:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

DAVID RAYNER SAYS: Darren can hardly be described as a living person as far as this world goes, for he died nineteen years ago. I can assure you that the information on my Facebook tribute to Darren, meticulously researched over many years, is entirely accurate, if not entirely comprehensive.
 * To clarify; Facebook is never a reliable source unless the account is confirmed as being self published by the person the article is about, as per WP:SELFPUB. Any personal information only supported by IMDB may be removed as not reliably sourced, see Citing IMDb. If someone is notable then sources should be available in non-disputed reliable sources, if you can find no such sources then notability can be easily challenged. To include alumni in this article reliable sources should also be supplied to demonstrate their status as an alumnus in addition to the issue of notability. Fæ (talk) 11:33, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The list of names of former "old boys" or "old citizens" is getting to long once again. I suggest merging them with List of Old Citizens. Thoughts? Jrcrin001 (talk) 21:29, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The Notable people list is inaccurate as of September 2010 as Skandar Keynes and Harry Michell are now former pupils. Lexiyh (talk) 22:25, 8 February 2011 (UTC)