Talk:Civic Exchange/Archive 2006

October 2006
Hey guys, I've just started the page with a sentence-length description of the NGO and its website, any suggestion on how may go on? 0101Novus06 05:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi! I've just tried to set up the initial frame. It's not well-formed of course. Any idea? 0101colin06 16:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you!! It looks much better now~ I am not good at format and structure, so can't give you any idea, sorry. But I wonder what kinds of content you wanna put in the "organization" section? Maybe I can help fill that gap up, something about how CE is organized and operates?0101Novus06 06:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I intended to put in, but I've got no source. I only know from the website that it is a "cooperative social enterprise".

By the way, you don't have to care about what I set as the frame. Just add what you want to add. We have days to organize the article, but we are now having too little information. Let's add oil! 0101colin06 06:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

dear guys, i have just add few sentences in the 2nd paragraph and edit on the orginal one, hope you don't mind. Please feel free to edit mind as I am always thinking that mind is not good enough, thanks! 0101syshum06 18:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

dear guys, I have add 2 pictures in the site but I don't know how to make it smaller and add caption on it...would you please teach me or just edit for me?? thanks!! 0101syshum06 19:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey guys...I am also in this project~ but i am really new to this stuff..would you guys mind helpin me to start??? 0101jaymee06 09:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi! Just raise your question here and I'll try my best to help you. Let's work to together to make the webpage better. 0101colin06 13:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

thank u so much!!!!i just added several sentences in the section of Organization. hope its not totally useless~ 0101jaymee06 13:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC

I see you editing the page and you're starting well. I can't see any problem. Let's keep working. 0101colin06 13:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I wonder where to find more information on this topic though....we hv to add oil!!! :)0101jaymee06 14:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you think maybe we can go to their office to get more information? Or even take a few pictures...or maybe get a brief interview, even, if we have time later on. 0101Novus06 05:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

As for the overlapping of internship program
I think this program is not very important. So it need not to be at the intro. May be putting the paragraph at the intro to the later part, combining the two 0101colin06 17:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to combine the two part. Please help me with this by making modification. 0101colin06 17:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

after the combination, it is much better User:0101christineng0614.05 28th October 2006(UTC)

A few words about ICC
I'm afraid I can't agree on the revision made by 0101christineng06 on ICC. Here are the reasons:

1) It omits the fact that ICC is a worldwide event initiated by The Ocean Conservancy.

2) It was written carelessly: "The ICC initiated on September 16th and finished on October 22nd 2006 this year" (note "2006" and "this year".) By the way, the exact date is not important. It changes every year. The number of participants and debris collected changes too, but they reflect the scale, which the date of event cannot.

3) There isn't much new information added in paragraph one.

4)"ICC also integrates into the educational purpose. Through taking part in such meaningful events, children can get the first-hand information about the marine pollution and learn how to conserve our treasure marine property."

This provides new information. But the word "meaningful" is a bit not neutral enough. In fact we don't have to judge whether this event is meaningful. Reader judge it, when we provided enough information.

I'm not saying this revision is not good. But it can be better if a few changes can be made. Groupmates, what do you think about it?0101colin06 12:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I am really sorry about the editing of the passage thx for giving constructive opinions I will make some changes to it later 0101christineng06

Response and "Hey! Shall we make a discussion before we go on?
I agree with colin, especailly on point 1. The current version makes ICC sounds like a local event initiated by Civic Exchange, while the previous version has highlighted CE's role more accurately. And the latest revision did kind of disrupted the original syntax into some confusing and disjunctive sentences.

And personally, I do think that we should keep the entry as objective as possible, avoiding subjective words like "highlight".

I think, as we got this much information on the page now, maybe we should discuss here before we make any major changes or edits.

Also, just a personal suggestion...I think the overall structure is somewhat loose and scattered now, and all the information are not really cohesive...

e.g. I think the "sustainability tools" part shouldn't be a stand alone section, as it is not as broad as other sections like "Mission" or "Projects", etc, we may need to put it in another section instead...

So could we like, discuss more on the overall structure, and do some collaborative planning on what each of us would like to add in?

Also also, do you guys mind if I rework some of the sentences and reorganize their sequence on the page (without changing their meaning)? Because it now looks odd as we four have very different style of writing...the whole piece doesn't feel connected.

0101Novus06 17:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[]

No, I don't. It would be grateful if you would take this responsibility.

And I have a suggestion on the "Project" part. Shall we add some information of projects of Civic Exchange like those in this webpage: http://www.civic-exchange.org/?cat=24

As there are 3 main categories of those projects, maybe each of us can work on one category. 0101colin06 01:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

By the way, as I was reading the guide of wikipedia, it suggests that "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article."

Maybe we can add some more stuff to the intro.0101colin06 01:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

yes, it would be good to have the same tone in the article, i don't mind if you guys change mind.

and about the indroudction, do we need to put more? I think the introduction is just briefly introduce the organization, e.g. when it is set up, where it is located, main idea of the organization...may be we need to put some introduction into different section. if people really interest in the organization, they can scoll down for details. or may be we can see other organization in wikipedia for reference and see how the articles are organized. 0101syshum06 02:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes we should group the projects into three main categories as subsections...

And as i was reading their annuanl report 04-05, Civic Exchange claims that all their projects contribute to the sustainable development of HK, so it is like an overall theme rather than a project... "Sustainability Tools" however, is mainly for educational purposes, which goes hand in hand with "Internship Programme", and which i don't think should be placed under "Projects". So maybe we can group these two into a new section called sthg like "Education"?

I can work on integration of economic analysis.

But I think we have 4 people in this group....

A stronger lead introduction with some internal links will definitely make the whole piece more connected, and we need some introductions for sections that have sub-sections too...like for the "projects" part. However, I suggest working on the introductions last, so we don't have to edit the intro everytime we add in new sections, etc. 0101Novus06 04:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

hey guys, i just want to ask is the outline of "civic participation and social development" ok or not? if the sub topic is okay, we can add somethin into each sub topic...i think i will do it tmr coz i am too tired tonight...u guys cna feel free to add/edit the sub title!! thx!! 0101syshum06 16:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

hello guys, i think there r too many sub-sections. can it be possible that we group some of them into a bigger section?0101jaymee06 01:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I am Christine. Sorry about the infrequent submmits previously because I had several tests, but I promise I will contribute more. As to the introduction, I have find some leaflets saying "Civic exchange provide an independent platform for those who care about public policy issues to come together and explore alternatives and solutions." i think it is an important point....but i don't know where should be added in the introduction..could you give some suggestions??

I also agree with the opinions that the article is a bit scattered perhaps it is better for us to have some discussion on the layout

i do not mind the combination of the intership and the sustainability tool

should we have some discussion on the division of labour?? I think we should go in-depth in each project so as to let the public kn wot the organization have done

i am doing the research on the air pollution and the vision project User:0101christineng06 21:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear guys, about the content, i don't mind if you edit it or even delete them because this can make the article become better. do you think there is some overlapping in the content? for example, in the introduction part, there is some sentences about the internship programe, then in the later sub title of "project", it also talking about the internship programe...can these two combine together?

Dear Christine: i think we can put the sentences in the 2nd paragraph of the introduction and this may need to change some wordings in the 2nd paragraph.0101syshum06 17:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

From User:Fuzheado/jmsc0101/instructions(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fuzheado/jmsc0101/instructions):

"7. COPYING. Outright copying information from other sites or government brochures IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. You can use facts from other places and rewrite them in your own words, but you cannot completely lift other peoples' words. One, it is unethical. Two, a government brochure's style is not appropriate for an encyclopedia. In short - don't do it."

Maybe we need some paraphrasing work on the "Purpose" part. By the way this part is quite related to "Mission". Or we can merge them.0101colin06 17:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

OK...let me merge the two parts by the way.... how about the division of work?? i am still pending your reply.User:0101christineng06

division of work
I'm now digging out past projects from the past annual reports. Currently working mainly on the enviromental part. 0101colin06 06:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

me too i am also working on the environmental part i am working on the air pollution which part are you on??0101christineng06 16:00, 28 October 2006(UTC)

"Hong Kong & Pearl River Delta (PRD) Pilot Air Monitoring Project" 0101colin06 08:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we divide our work in different criteria?? User:0101chrisitneng06 17:00 28 October 2006(UTC)

Dear guys.....im sorry that i didnt contribute much...>_<, but i admire u guys workin so fast n efficient!! is there anything i can do some in-depth research on????? plz dun let me out of the game....0101jaymee06 17:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Jaymee, you may not need to do "in-depth research". You could help a lot by doing editing work. Our article has much material, but not well-organised, and the style not consistent, wording not appropriate.

And I think we can add something to "economic" and "Civic Participation and Social Development" part. Maybe you can think about these two.

Maybe everybody can tell others what are you working on or preparing to work on.

I have to say sorry as I may not be able to add anything to our article until 31st Oct. I have two mid-term papers to finish. (And I haven't got a single word written.) 0101colin06 02:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Jaymee: I understand your eargerness, b4, I was also busying my test.I will work on the vision project and air pollution Dear Colin: we admire you put a lot of effort in the article b4......add oil for your mid term tests!! user:0101christineng0611:31, 29 October 2006

dear everyone, thank u guys so much for suggesting things for me to look at~!i'll do my best to do some research on "economic" n "civic part." as well as some editing (but i sucks at computerin....though)~ anyway, i'll keep on going n u guys feel free to change my entries n give me suggestions! ;)0101jaymee06 07:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like to work on town development and the Tamai as well 0101christineng06 21:03, 29 October 2006(UTC)

Dear guys, you all have done so many things!! thank you so much!! i have just contributed a little...is there anything i can do? just now, i have edit something...after reading week must need to hand in lots of assignment...add oil everyone!! 0101syshum06 17:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear syshum: I have see your editing work pretty gd ....it's more neat and clear now yah...i have two assigmenets to hand in today...one poster and lingustic hw... but let's work toward a higher grade in one accord 0101christineng01 8:16, 31 October,2006

Dear all, I can work on editing as well.0101Novus06 12:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: add reference
Look at how our classmates do it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Human_Rights_Monitor

e.g. in the editing window, this:

will become this in the reference part:

^ “訪美後匯報,” The Democratic Party, 28 October 2002,  (26 October 2006)

Perhaps we can add reference too. Let's add them back to what we have written, shall we? 0101colin06 03:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Details on adding reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources

too long to read...

To me the most important part is "When to cite sources":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources#When_to_cite_sources

Maybe you can scan through it when you are in doubt with whether or not to cite the source...

0101colin06 03:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you read Hannah's email? It seems we have to make a big change to our article...0101colin06 09:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

which email? the latest one i got from her was the 26Oct one, about wiki deletion.0101Novus06 12:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Hannah's email
Hannah has sent us an email today with this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Samaritan_Befrienders_Hong_Kong We are supposed to see Andrew Lih's comments.

And here I quote Hannah's message: "Please remember the pages is NOT about quantity. For the remaining few days of your project, please do not add anything NEW to your pages, but select and edit."

We better figure out how to edit our article. Let's discuss on this problem.0101colin06 13:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the most problematic part is the "projects", we have too many examples and explanations, maybe we have to start the selection from there. 0101Novus06 14:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree.

And I think the Organization part needs a more coherent presentation, better not in point form. And it seems a bit like PR writing. In fact this is our problem throughout the article; we have no source except the official website. If we don't put effort on editing we'll end up as spokepersons of Civic Exchange. 0101colin06 15:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: Civic Participation and Social Development
I think the most important thing is democratic reform and promoting civic participation. Maybe we can revise the whole part with this two concentration. Any idea?0101colin06 16:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Last paragraph of air pollution... "All the time, Civic Exchange has kept a watchful eye on the policy of the Hong Kong SAR government against air pollution. The recent policy address of the Chief Executive has been under severe criticism of Civic Exchange for the government fails to address the issue by providing a comprehensive air management plan."

"The recent policy address"<<< of which year??0101colin06 16:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Editing Notes
To Christine: I think the idea of "Civic exchange provide an independent platform for those who care about public policy issues to come together and explore alternatives and solutions" is already embedded in the introduction, so we don't really need to add that in. We have already mentioned it is a collaborative work seeking to provide policy solution.

Some suggestions to all: We have simply TOO MANY materials on the page now, I think as a Journalism course work, we really have to think about the SELECTION of material. Abundance in information is not a criterion, but rather the selection and representation of significant and precise information.

Also, there is a serious problem of paraphrasing, it is quite obvious that some of the sections are paraphrased straight from the official web page, and they sound weird and grammatically wrong sometimes. eg. global nature cannot be paraphrased as international in nature, it doesn't fit in the original syntax and context.

So instead of paraphrasing, I suggest we digest the information from the official webpage, then write out the most important ideas in our own words. 0101Novus06 13:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I have made some major changes to the organization of various sections. I have put "how CE works" and "who CE works with" into the "organization" section, as they are both introductory stuffs that do not need that much attention, and the organization section seems a bit short.

I have also grouped "sustainability tools", "seminars" and "intership" into one big section called "public Education", I think that will be more organized, as they are very related ideas.

Also, another suggestion to future entries, please advoid inverted sentences like "With xxxxxxx, CE has...", as such structure, effective for reverting the emphasis, is common in essay writing, but not in encyclopedia entries. We want the reader's attention focused on the subject, Civic Exchange, so plainer structures will be fine. 0101Novus06 13:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

so guys, we need to edit in which sense? organize the content into less sections? or re-write some of the stuff?0101jaymee06 02:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

the 2nd paragraph of "Cirtisicm"
About the 2nd paragraph of "Cirtisicm" (now "Pro-China camp's criticisms"), I've add two sentence to link it up with the subject word "Cirtisicm", coz I am afraid the original one didn't match this sub-topic well.

But I'm not sure if I am justified to do so, since what I added was quite an empty prediction. If you can do something to this paragraph, please work on it to make it relevant to the sub-topic, or move it to a suitable part.

Or we can rename the part "Between Civic Exchange and China", which sounds more inclusive. 0101colin06 00:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the external link "Former HK legislator Christine Loh lands key human rights post" needs HKUL authentication to view, so people without HKU ID cannot read it. Maybe you can cite the referece with "ref tag".

Problem of our article
dear guys, today i have attend the JMSC tutorial...and Hannah have use our article as an example...he has pointed out some points that we shd be bear in mind...

in the first paragraph of the introduction part...we hv written "CE is an independent policy think tank"...he said that the word "independent" shouldn't be use...as it has some meaning as good thing...he said we should use "non-government" or "private".

he has also ask where is the idea of CE come from...for example, we can write someting abt the background of the individuals (christine lok).

and in the "Funding" part...we have list out many organizations which give financial support to CE...however, some organizations are US government in which they always influence politic of other countries in this way... so is CE work for US govt in this sense?? is CE support the US govt?? can we still saying that CE is independent in this sense?? Hannah said that we need to check the source of money in order to check if CE is independent.

so...i think we need to double check our content!! and did your tutor talk abt these things??0101syshum06 09:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

also, hannah has ask several questions in the tuturial...not specific questions on our article...

is the organization affected? what the organization have done? how the CE help to the society? (with evidence) what is the result? how did you measure its success? he remind us not to reproduce too much from the offical website...we shdn't neglect the bad thing of the organization...

i think these can be the guideline to us on editing the article.

so what should we do now?? 0101syshum06 09:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'don't have tourial this week, coz it's on Monday. I don't think it's possible for us to find those kind of information in such a short time. Civic Exchange is not quite covered by the media. I'll try to find some source though. But I don't even know how to start. Searching Google doesn't work... Despair.0101colin06 12:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

try these sources: http://sunzi1.lib.hku.hk/ER/subject.jsp?subj=0&type=nem&total=14 0101colin06 13:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

sorry guys....it seems that nth can be found from the electronic resources on CE!!0101jaymee06 15:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Try this one: http://sunzi1.lib.hku.hk/ER/detail/3538447 0101colin06 16:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

i think our site looks not bad at the moment~ thank u guys so much. i tried to search from WiseNews, got sth out of it.0101jaymee06 16:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, i was in the tutorial too, it is also suggested that we be more objective and critical, don't put information if we cant verify its validity.

Hannah also suggests we can put a link on Christine Loh's entry to our page.

So like, I think we should decide what to keep and what to crop out first, then quickly rewrite some of the things left, especially the language, as discussed in the tutorial, we need to choose our words carefully, and think critically about the connotation of the words used.

For a start, I suggest the removal of the "SARS outbreak" section, as it is not that significant to Civic Exchange, and CE hasn't done much major things either. More importantly, as mentioned in the paragraph itself, the websites they have setup are already removed, so...it sounds too weird we give much notice here.

Another section is "Air Pollution" which is too huge, and seems like we are focusing on air pollution in HK instead of Civic Exchange. I think we need to mention Civic Exchange's contribution only, but not all the factual, data details of the pollution.

Also for editing, as colin has suggested, our style is quite PR...something like "When winter arrives, the haze, or worse still, the smog envelops the Victoria Harbour." in the Air Quality subsection doesn't sound like encyclopedic language as well... 0101Novus06 03:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

dear guys, i have deleted "It is likely that Christine Loh herself or Civic Exchange will involve more in the codition of human rights in China. This may trigger more criticisms from the China side."...it seem something about our comment. i agree that we can delete the "SARS outbreak"0101syshum06 09:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

"Christine Loh has recently become the director of an organization called Human Rights in China. This organization is founded by a group of overseas students and scholars in 1989 March, which often criticizes the Human Rights in China. For example it has paid a high attention to the incident of Ching Cheong and has made announcement on the incident."

I can see the reason of deleting the last two sentences. But I am still wondering if we can do something to this paragraph to make it fit into the sub-topic "criticism".

and SARS deleted. 0101colin06 10:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

the publication is too long, and not giving useful information. I suggest we may either rewrite it into a shorter one or delete it. 0101colin06 10:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

maybe just make a list of publication? 0101jaymee06 14:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

guys i made the publication into a list, hope u guys like it 0101jaymee06 16:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

much better. 0101colin06 00:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

dear guys, i don't know how to make the article become neutral... for example, the 1st paragraph in "organization"... i have try to rewrite it into "Civic Exchange has its idea of inventing a co-operative social enterprise. It provides open working area and flexible working hour to let people to share their information. It values individual ability and remains open-minded to decision-making and social needs. "... but still it seem saying that the positive side of CE...so i didn't edit anything on the part of "organization"...don't know how to do...0101syshum06 06:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I have made a big change to the organization part, condensing the points into a few sentences, eliminating some less important or rather subjective points. I hope I have highlighted the main points correctly, and no offense. 0101Novus06 09:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Introduction
"Civic Exchange provide an independent platform for the public from different walks of life to come together to discuss and explore alternatives and work out solutions."

Sounds not neutral.

At the end of each year, Civic Exchange will public their annual report through their websites and compact disc. The citizens can contact the office to get the CD ROM to review their work.

Seems not so important to be mentioned in the introduction. 0101colin06 14:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Clean Harbour-Aberdeen Project(CHAP)
I'm afraid the tone is too "PR". 0101colin06 15:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

the Central Harbourfront Development looks clumsy under the 4 pics. im goin to separte them, ok?0101jaymee06 15:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

well....i cant separate them. lets not worry about it then 0101jaymee06 15:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

To Novus
Hey, I wonder a large part of air pollution and city development is not worthy to be kept in the article. I believe in your sense, what do you think? 0101colin06 15:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. You've done a great job.0101colin06 16:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

ha, unfortunately i didnt have enough time to change as much as i would like 0101Novus06 16:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if we can continue edit the page altho the deadline has passed, just for the site's sake. 0101Novus06 16:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, you come too late :-)

It's a good idea, but there are presentations, essays, tests... gosh! And I guess next week we may have the 2nd journalism quiz...

Anyway I'll be back some time. Maybe do some editing. It's not easy to write something objective and informative. I just wonder how this webpage will look like a few months later when more people come and add something.

0101colin06 16:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

To Christine
Thank you adding so much images. You have go to their office, right? 0101colin06 14:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid we shouldn't add information to the article but edit it... Air pollution part need editing...0101colin06 15:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

hey...but y are we adding some new information in such last minute... the new sentences kind of tune the introduction to an ad... and haven't we agreed on not using the word "independent"?? i am inclined to delte them...any other comments?? 0101Novus06 15:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree, as I mentioned before. It sounds not neutral. and the last paragraph of intro seems not so important to be mentioned in the introduction. 0101colin06 15:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

To colin: thx so much at the last minute for helping me to put the images in the right way ....i am lucky to have tech savvy groupmate ...really grateful User:0101christineng06 0.02, 3 November 2006(UTC)

You're welcome. 0101colin06 16:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

To journalism groupmates
So our work finished here (temporarily?). It's very strange to work with strangers. At last I still don't know you. Maybe that's better; somehow I did more destruction than construction. Forgive me. Althought the article is not perfect, leaving much to be desired, I do appreciate what we have done. I hope you like it too. Maybe later we'll work together again. Thank you and good luck! 0101colin06 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear guys, thank you so much on editing the article...sorry that i seldom contribute to the article...thanks you guys in helping me to edit the part which i don't know how to do...although we still don't know each others until now, but it is a good experience!! assignment...quiz...presentation are coming to us...add oil!! and may be we can keep in touch through this "wikipedia"!!0101syshum06 17:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)