Talk:Civil Disobedience (Thoreau)/Archive 1

Anarchist
I don't think it's fair to call Thoreau an anarchist; because he specifically says that he would pay other taxes, such as the school tax or the highway tax...it's simply that he cannot support one ideal of the federal government at this time. He is not saying he wants no rules, he is saying he wants fair ones. Rikku 19:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rikku (talk • contribs) 13:57, May 15, 2006 (UTC)

Anarchism is against leaders, not laws. - Anarchist without an account


 * Tell that to the Oxford English Dictionary.71.61.64.113 (talk) 20:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Thoreau specifically said in Civil Disobedience "I ask for, not at once no government, but at once a better government". So therefore I wouldn't call Thoreau an anarchist. However, I think it's fine to say in the article that people have interpreted Civil Disobedience as having anarchistic views, however,they are wrong for blah blah blah reasons. 66.32.151.112 (talk) 22:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Civil Disobedience wasn't the only thing he wrote, and besides, that quote you gave can be interpreted as just meaning that he endorses a gradualist approach to an anarchist end. He expressed an anarchist outlook in other places, but also more ambiguous things as well.  He didn't appear to be self-consciously anarchist, or to be trying deliberately to construct an anarchist political philosophy, but he often wrote things that sound very much like they don't leave much room for a legitimate State. -Moorlock (talk) 23:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC) For instance, from A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers:
 * “I have not so surely foreseen that any Cossack or Chippeway would come to disturb the honest and simple commonwealth, as that some monster institution would at length embrace and crush its free members in its scaly folds; for it is not to be forgotten, that while the law holds fast the thief and murderer, it lets itself go loose. When I have not paid the tax which the State demanded for that protection which I did not want, itself has robbed me; when I have asserted the liberty it presumed to declare, itself has imprisoned me.  Poor creature! if it knows no better I will not blame it.  If it cannot live but by these means, I can.  I do not wish, it happens, to be associated with Massachusetts, either in holding slaves or in conquering Mexico.  I am a little better than herself in these respects.… Thus it has happened, that not the Arch Fiend himself has been in my way, but these toils which tradition says were originally spun to obstruct him.…  If, for instance, a man asserts the value of individual liberty over the merely political commonweal, his neighbor still tolerates him, that he who is living near him, sometimes even sustains him, but never the State.  Its officer, as a living man, may have human virtues and a thought in his brain, but as the tool of an institution, a jailer or constable it may be, he is not a whit superior to his prison key or his staff. Herein is the tragedy; that men doing outrage to their proper natures, even those called wise and good, lend themselves to perform the office of inferior and brutal ones.  Hence come war and slavery in; and what else may not come in by this opening?”

I would argue that Thoreau does express anarchistic views (government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.) He may not be an outright anarchist, but his philosophies unquestionably have influenced anarchists who followed him. Emerson's the better of the two anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.193.160.91 (talk) 21:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

question..
Why is it that in all of the articles about essays written by people, there is never a section containing a word for word reproduction of the actual essay? I mean, I'm sure that would add understanding to what the essay is about...I'm sure it's in the public domain or something, right? 66.32.151.112 (talk) 19:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The full text of such documents belong at Wikisource, not in an article. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  23:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

"A Paraphrased Synopsis"?
Am I the only one who feels that this "paraphrased synopsis" section is highly questionable, and perhaps inappropriate? We do not include the full text of documents in articles, because that is what Wikisource is for, but neither should we include "paraphrased synopses" which give "only the important parts." This, obviously, calls for someone to make a judgment as to which parts are important and those that can be left out. Quotes from the document would be appropriate, certainly, within the context of an examination of the essay's influence or how different scholars have interpreted the importance of Thoreau's argument. But, a "paraphrased synopsis" is very troublesome to me precisely because it provides only bits and pieces, and does so in an unencyclopædic manner. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  03:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You've deleted the synopsis section that I restored. You claim that the deletion is justified under the WP:NPS guidelines, but it doesn't fall under those guidelines as it isn't a reproduction of the source in an article about the source, but a syopsis of the source that summarizes it (which is one useful purpose of a WP page).  Perhaps at some point the synopsis should be replaced by a more straightforwardly-written summary, but until that time the synopsis serves a useful function without contravening WP:NPS.  I would suggest that we put it back until such time as a well fleshed-out summary can take its place. -Moorlock (talk) 05:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You are quite incorrect, actually. A "paraphrased synopsis" is, on its face, unencyclopædic and a violation of WP policy inasmuch as it amounts to an editor deciding which bits are important, and which are not.  Now, a section in which various sources are quoted offering their interpretations of the text, with quotes from the text, would be another matter altogether.  But, the current section fails policy in a number of ways.  Hence, it will be removed (again). ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  23:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, for one thing, it clearly doesn't violate the policy you cited -- that policy just advises people not to make an entry for a text that includes the text itself in the entry (as Wikisource is the proper venue for such things). All wikipedia articles are summaries of their subjects and thereby reflect the work of editors "deciding which bits are important."  Be that as it may, I've reworked the section as a "summary" instead of a "paraphrase" in the hopes that this will make you happy. -Moorlock (talk) 01:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * This argument has come up before. Many, many articles have plot synopses and the like - ultimately, they all are a violation of WP:OR and even WP:NPOV because someone is making judgments on what is most important. I think a summary discussion is essential but whoever writes it must be very aware that they are only summarizing the words of the author; no analysis or judgments or undue weight should be given throughout. To be safe, of course, it should summarize the whole essay, not just the good parts. If you really want to play it safe, find other writers who have already summarized the essay and footnote your summary like crazy. --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above sentiments by RepJacobite & MidnightDreary. In addition, I find the current aforementioned section to be poorly organized and lacking in overall structure. I would recommend utilizing already published sources who have given a synopsis on the work and revamp the section to focus more specifically on "themes" or "notable passages" (as recognized by authors who have reviewed the work).   Red thoreau  (talk)RT 03:49, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Prisons
If anyone's interested, I've proposed a new wikiproject for the creation of articles regarding specific prisons here. --Cdogsimmons (talk) 01:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Influence
Wasn't Nelson Mandela greatly influenced by this as well? Dude1818 (talk) 03:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibly. We should find a source which says so before we can add it here, though. --Midnightdreary (talk) 03:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)